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On January 14 2014 06:38 RampancyTW wrote:
Another side effect of delaying warp tech: it allows Z to play a lottt greedier if you know there's no real risk of early attacks. So you might buff gateway units... but then super early pokes with 2-3 units get a lot stronger, etc. You'd have to completely rework all 3 races to mitigate the effects of later warpgate.
That's true.. sigh sigh.
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I posted this on BNet forums. Changes to MSC with minimal side effects to non-early game TvP, any timestamp PvP, pretty much any time stamp ZvP (except recall snipes).
Source: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9256976471?page=1#3
+ Show Spoiler +Dear reader,
I propose to you a couple of changes to the MSC to make it a more well-balanced, less versatile unit. These changes aim to affect mostly the complaints about the Mothership Core, while causing as little damage as possible to any other interaction.
SUBJECTS:
- Arguments for the MSC
- Problems with the MSC
- Why DKs proposed solution is wrong
- Problems with nerfing MSC
- Proposed changes
Arguments for the MSC:
- The MSC stabilizes PvP. This is the biggest argument proposed to warrant the mothershipcore. Because of the spells the mothershipcore offers, PvP since HotS goes beyond 1 base v 1 base - you can secure an extra base and start the long game from there.
- MSC gives Protoss some sense of security in their former weakest phase of the game, where gatewayunits lose their strenght to the opposing races and their tech. MSC bridges the timing where gateways become to weak and the high tech kicks in.
- MSC allows Protoss to move out on the map and be agressive without too much risk.
Problem with the MSC:
- The Mothership Core gives Protoss TOO much safety.
It's not rare to see protoss play with multiple tech paths, lots of upgrades off of one gateway until pretty deep in the game. Overcharge deals 20DPS but is not cancel-able (except by killing the nexus, which is not an issue before lategame).
- The moveouts on the map have become no risk. We often see Protoss go for what should be a suicide mission on the third of Zerg, but is not - a combination of Forcefield and Recall allows the army to attempt a snipe on the base RISK-FREE!
Why DK's change is wrong:
David Kim proposed a change to Planetary Overcharge: nerfing the duration from 60 second to 40 seconds. This, in my opinion, is wrong.
- This change mostly hurts PvP. The two minutes of Overcharge Support is needed to get even in production with the opposing Protoss player. The time bought allows for the standing armies to be equal in strenght and thus allows expansion based builds to exist in the first place.
- PvZ and PvT are mostly timing based. Whether said timing is delayed y 40 or 60 seconds, the window of potential damage has passed.
Problems often spoken about as an argument AGAINST nerfing MSC:
- The Terran 1/1/1 all in. Buffed Cloak and Siege Tech make Protosses afraid of a new domination of 1/1/1, a techbased all in that is shut down flat by the 13 range and high DPS of Overcharge.
- Protoss cannot get tech fast enough to deal with mass bio AND get a secure third base for late game because of Emergency Thrusters.
- PvP would devolve back into 1 base v 1 base for eternity.
My proposed changes and reasoning:
A - Photon Overcharge
No change to range, damage, duration.
Instead - Mothership Core now Channels the overcharge from a range of 6 or less to the nexus (for comparison, this is slightly further than the distance from Nexus to mineral line). Channeling means the Mothershipcore becomes immobile, cannot attack anymore, nor cast spells. If the mothership core is killed, Overcharge is HALTED
Why this is fine:
Early game, the only real Aerial threats for the Mothership core consist of:
- Marines with Stimpack
- Phoenix
- VIkings
- Blink Stalkers
Marines and Stalkers are dealt with by moving behind the nexus and the army so you cannot be reached, if the Stalkers decide to blink, they are without blink on top of your standing army and probes and risk losing their lives instantly.
Phoenix and Vikings are dealt with by keeping the MSC over the Overcharge (damaging attacking unit) and keeping a little aerial support nearby.
This limits the amount of active overcharges to 1 and creates a situation in which Protoss must carefully position the MSC to provide maximum safety. This also allows the other races to all in by dedicating to killing the Overcharging core. These all ins can be blocked with sentries vs Marines, any small army vs Stalkers, and Stalkers vs Air based all ins and Sim City also helps vs the ground units.
This creates a dynamic in which mostly Terran benefits from the change, not by anything major in the later game, but by allowing Terran to all in greedy Protoss players again.
B - Mass Recall
The problem with the current version of Recall is that it appears to be too much of a 'get-out-of-jail-free-call'. The casting time is short, all units get safed, You can make mistakes and get away unpunished because of this.
- MothershipCore becomes IMMUNE to all damage while using Recall.
- Any unit that takes damage in the channeling time DOES NOT RECALL. This usually means a couple of gateway units get left behind, depending on the speed of the recall. This also means you can no longer escape unscathed when taking a poor engagement. This also means there's no implication for defensive recalls to Nexi.
What this also means, Fungal Growth, EMP, AoE damage in general cause a situation in which Protoss might not want to recall. Any unti struck by it will be left behind. This once again makes Recall a lot riskier to use when caught with a poorly positioned army, but has no implications when casted in time, which, because of Hallucination / Observers, is not a problem. If you get faced with a situation in which you can't recall, there's the option of manouvering with the use of sentries, storm, Time Warp and perhaps sacrificial Zealots to buy time and reach for a safe area to recall at. This change again barely affects well played PvP, in TvP and ZvP, you have good options to provide map vision and can use recall freely, like you do now, EXCEPT when you get caught in a poor engagement. In that case, you risk losing a chunk of your army.
Time Warp
Duration changed to 10 or 15 seconds. Time Warp is a spell that combo's too well with the Protoss army when used in certain ways. Storm Collosus Archon Zealot is an army that requires a very mobile response, which Time Warp denies. Time Warp is also too effective in blocking of movement paths for Zerg for too long without investing Gas into Sentries. Lastly, Time Warp makes for really weird PvP battles in which unit micro becomes much less rewarding because both deathballs are usually under the effects of Time Warp.
Vision Range
Mothership Core vision is 14 this should change to 9. This is the biggest Reason Blink All Ins are as powerful as they are. You can always perfectly see when it is safe to blink in. Blinking into a main SHOULD be risky, but a combination of this vision range and time warp allows for blinking in and not having to fear an engagement until blink is off cooldown again. This only weakens Blink All Ins slightly and possibly gateway (immortal) all ins up a natural ramp (which a sentry can help with decently), no other interactions badly are affected.
I'm greatly interested in a discussion about the pro's and cons of my proposed changes.
A small TLDR:
- Overcharge becomes a channeled spell.
- Recall does not recall units that took damage while Recall was in process. Mothershipcore Immune during recall.
- Time Warp duration decreased
- Mothership Core Vision from 14 to 9.
Kind regards,
Toastie
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I think the best fix to warpgate would be to make units take ~15 seconds to warp in instead of 5, while also deceasing the time it takes inbetween warp ins so that the overall build time from a warpgate is the same as it is now. It would always keep the obvious advantages over normal gateways (faster build times and reinforcements wherever), but it also means that warping in a new group of units right in the middle of battle becomes much more risky. As it is now, I feel like warpgate makes macro and defending drops way too easy for toss.
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On January 14 2014 09:02 SC2Toastie wrote:I posted this on BNet forums. Changes to MSC with minimal side effects to non-early game TvP, any timestamp PvP, pretty much any time stamp ZvP (except recall snipes). Source: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9256976471?page=1#3+ Show Spoiler +Dear reader,
I propose to you a couple of changes to the MSC to make it a more well-balanced, less versatile unit. These changes aim to affect mostly the complaints about the Mothership Core, while causing as little damage as possible to any other interaction.
SUBJECTS:
- Arguments for the MSC
- Problems with the MSC
- Why DKs proposed solution is wrong
- Problems with nerfing MSC
- Proposed changes
Arguments for the MSC:
- The MSC stabilizes PvP. This is the biggest argument proposed to warrant the mothershipcore. Because of the spells the mothershipcore offers, PvP since HotS goes beyond 1 base v 1 base - you can secure an extra base and start the long game from there.
- MSC gives Protoss some sense of security in their former weakest phase of the game, where gatewayunits lose their strenght to the opposing races and their tech. MSC bridges the timing where gateways become to weak and the high tech kicks in.
- MSC allows Protoss to move out on the map and be agressive without too much risk.
Problem with the MSC:
- The Mothership Core gives Protoss TOO much safety.
It's not rare to see protoss play with multiple tech paths, lots of upgrades off of one gateway until pretty deep in the game. Overcharge deals 20DPS but is not cancel-able (except by killing the nexus, which is not an issue before lategame).
- The moveouts on the map have become no risk. We often see Protoss go for what should be a suicide mission on the third of Zerg, but is not - a combination of Forcefield and Recall allows the army to attempt a snipe on the base RISK-FREE!
Why DK's change is wrong:
David Kim proposed a change to Planetary Overcharge: nerfing the duration from 60 second to 40 seconds. This, in my opinion, is wrong.
- This change mostly hurts PvP. The two minutes of Overcharge Support is needed to get even in production with the opposing Protoss player. The time bought allows for the standing armies to be equal in strenght and thus allows expansion based builds to exist in the first place.
- PvZ and PvT are mostly timing based. Whether said timing is delayed y 40 or 60 seconds, the window of potential damage has passed.
Problems often spoken about as an argument AGAINST nerfing MSC:
- The Terran 1/1/1 all in. Buffed Cloak and Siege Tech make Protosses afraid of a new domination of 1/1/1, a techbased all in that is shut down flat by the 13 range and high DPS of Overcharge.
- Protoss cannot get tech fast enough to deal with mass bio AND get a secure third base for late game because of Emergency Thrusters.
- PvP would devolve back into 1 base v 1 base for eternity.
My proposed changes and reasoning:
A - Photon Overcharge
No change to range, damage, duration.
Instead - Mothership Core now Channels the overcharge from a range of 6 or less to the nexus (for comparison, this is slightly further than the distance from Nexus to mineral line). Channeling means the Mothershipcore becomes immobile, cannot attack anymore, nor cast spells. If the mothership core is killed, Overcharge is HALTED
Why this is fine:
Early game, the only real Aerial threats for the Mothership core consist of:
- Marines with Stimpack
- Phoenix
- VIkings
- Blink Stalkers
Marines and Stalkers are dealt with by moving behind the nexus and the army so you cannot be reached, if the Stalkers decide to blink, they are without blink on top of your standing army and probes and risk losing their lives instantly.
Phoenix and Vikings are dealt with by keeping the MSC over the Overcharge (damaging attacking unit) and keeping a little aerial support nearby.
This limits the amount of active overcharges to 1 and creates a situation in which Protoss must carefully position the MSC to provide maximum safety. This also allows the other races to all in by dedicating to killing the Overcharging core. These all ins can be blocked with sentries vs Marines, any small army vs Stalkers, and Stalkers vs Air based all ins and Sim City also helps vs the ground units.
This creates a dynamic in which mostly Terran benefits from the change, not by anything major in the later game, but by allowing Terran to all in greedy Protoss players again.
B - Mass Recall
The problem with the current version of Recall is that it appears to be too much of a 'get-out-of-jail-free-call'. The casting time is short, all units get safed, You can make mistakes and get away unpunished because of this.
- MothershipCore becomes IMMUNE to all damage while using Recall.
- Any unit that takes damage in the channeling time DOES NOT RECALL. This usually means a couple of gateway units get left behind, depending on the speed of the recall. This also means you can no longer escape unscathed when taking a poor engagement. This also means there's no implication for defensive recalls to Nexi.
What this also means, Fungal Growth, EMP, AoE damage in general cause a situation in which Protoss might not want to recall. Any unti struck by it will be left behind. This once again makes Recall a lot riskier to use when caught with a poorly positioned army, but has no implications when casted in time, which, because of Hallucination / Observers, is not a problem. If you get faced with a situation in which you can't recall, there's the option of manouvering with the use of sentries, storm, Time Warp and perhaps sacrificial Zealots to buy time and reach for a safe area to recall at. This change again barely affects well played PvP, in TvP and ZvP, you have good options to provide map vision and can use recall freely, like you do now, EXCEPT when you get caught in a poor engagement. In that case, you risk losing a chunk of your army.
Time Warp
Duration changed to 10 or 15 seconds. Time Warp is a spell that combo's too well with the Protoss army when used in certain ways. Storm Collosus Archon Zealot is an army that requires a very mobile response, which Time Warp denies. Time Warp is also too effective in blocking of movement paths for Zerg for too long without investing Gas into Sentries. Lastly, Time Warp makes for really weird PvP battles in which unit micro becomes much less rewarding because both deathballs are usually under the effects of Time Warp.
Vision Range
Mothership Core vision is 14 this should change to 9. This is the biggest Reason Blink All Ins are as powerful as they are. You can always perfectly see when it is safe to blink in. Blinking into a main SHOULD be risky, but a combination of this vision range and time warp allows for blinking in and not having to fear an engagement until blink is off cooldown again. This only weakens Blink All Ins slightly and possibly gateway (immortal) all ins up a natural ramp (which a sentry can help with decently), no other interactions badly are affected.
I'm greatly interested in a discussion about the pro's and cons of my proposed changes.
A small TLDR:
- Overcharge becomes a channeled spell.
- Recall does not recall units that took damage while Recall was in process. Mothershipcore Immune during recall.
- Time Warp duration decreased
- Mothership Core Vision from 14 to 9.
Kind regards,
Toastie
This seems reasonable, +1. would want to test it.
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On January 12 2014 12:55 ETisME wrote:
once money is involved, with more pros and talents start playing, problems will arise up.
Starcraft early WoL days was pretty interesting, unoptimised play with strange tactics (but doesn't mean horrible play).
Then once people starts to explore the game more, some problems show up when people found the best optimal way to play.
Then everyone copy the best optimal play and leads to more problematic games in their own game experience.
so the best way is just let starbow become the niche game and sort of like red alert 2, small pro scene, quite a bit of imbalanceness, but fun
SC2 was flawed from the very beginning. terrans could beat protoss simply by building only marauders and medivacs in the first month of WoL beta. Admittedly blizzard fixed lots of stuff and improved the game by a large margin, but even then, you can see that they hit the ceiling and can't make it any better, I attribute it to flaws in its core design.
I believe starbow has a lot more potential in that regard and can be much much better than original sc2 simply because its core idea is great and was inherited from bw.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
I must say, i love Starcraft even with not ideal balance and other crappy things, i love it! Guys stop crying on forums and just Play The Game! Or leave it^^
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On January 14 2014 06:38 RampancyTW wrote:
Another side effect of delaying warp tech: it allows Z to play a lottt greedier if you know there's no real risk of early attacks. So you might buff gateway units... but then super early pokes with 2-3 units get a lot stronger, etc. You'd have to completely rework all 3 races to mitigate the effects of later warpgate.
Or, you know, you buff something else that is not gateway dependend to give Protoss early poke tools against zerg.
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Yay, Harstem decided to adopt my Swarm Host suggestion fix.
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On January 14 2014 20:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 06:38 RampancyTW wrote:
Another side effect of delaying warp tech: it allows Z to play a lottt greedier if you know there's no real risk of early attacks. So you might buff gateway units... but then super early pokes with 2-3 units get a lot stronger, etc. You'd have to completely rework all 3 races to mitigate the effects of later warpgate. Or, you know, you buff something else that is not gateway dependend to give Protoss early poke tools against zerg.
Watched a proleague game today and the game started with cannon rush, and then oracle play, and then a timing (which came late enough since a warp prism was on the field) in a PvZ.
I've been a proposing warp-ins only being possible from a warp prism - thus requiring warp-gate all-ins to atleast require a robo.
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I have a question - why don't we see terrans building factory or starport units to supplement bio? Why is making a few less marauders or medivacs in exchange for a raven, widow mines, hellbats or tanks not worth it? I understand we see it occasionally (like in the Gumiho game last night) but why not on a regular basis?
Thanks guys.
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On January 16 2014 05:37 Korson wrote:
I have a question - why don't we see terrans building factory or starport units to supplement bio? Why is making a few less marauders or medivacs in exchange for a raven, widow mines, hellbats or tanks not worth it? I understand we see it occasionally (like in the Gumiho game last night) but why not on a regular basis?
Thanks guys.
Medivacs Vikings Mines get made regularly.
Why not go further? Double upgrades are expensive, quadruple upgrades and you'll be left with no army.
Also, there's obvious flaws in every extra unit you add to a combination.
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On January 16 2014 05:41 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 05:37 Korson wrote:
I have a question - why don't we see terrans building factory or starport units to supplement bio? Why is making a few less marauders or medivacs in exchange for a raven, widow mines, hellbats or tanks not worth it? I understand we see it occasionally (like in the Gumiho game last night) but why not on a regular basis?
Thanks guys. Medivacs Vikings Mines get made regularly. Why not go further? Double upgrades are expensive, quadruple upgrades and you'll be left with no army. Also, there's obvious flaws in every extra unit you add to a combination.
Also, some units just don't have good synergy with bio in certain situation. Thors, for example, cannot be used in TvP bio because its impossible to kite and stutter-step with them.
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Double upgrades are expensive, quadruple upgrades and you'll be left with no army.
We've done with triple UP in TvZ/TvT for quite some time, there should be an easy way to make it happen again, in other matchups and compositions.
One easy trick could be to buff bunkers. Especially via the bunkers/buildings upgrades. Health/armor/capacity/HB in bunks?.. Whatever. Via the correct buffs to mech units, you could see some interesting marines/mech (already usuable in WoL) upgrading only attack of bio and single/double UP mech. And small leapfrog of bunkers/tanks/minefields everywhere.
It would help a lot for Mech AA without even tweaking the thor. Could even help biotank TvZ via longer marine range and lifetime, and with Turrets, make the old BW defensive/agressive buildings/army coming slowly towarrd the enemy happens again.
But for that you need or a singular buff to tanks and a small to mines, or just make them a lot cheaper supply and costwise. I wouldn't be against a small decrease of marines health or increasing of Shield cost.
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On January 16 2014 12:03 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 05:41 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 16 2014 05:37 Korson wrote:
I have a question - why don't we see terrans building factory or starport units to supplement bio? Why is making a few less marauders or medivacs in exchange for a raven, widow mines, hellbats or tanks not worth it? I understand we see it occasionally (like in the Gumiho game last night) but why not on a regular basis?
Thanks guys. Medivacs Vikings Mines get made regularly. Why not go further? Double upgrades are expensive, quadruple upgrades and you'll be left with no army. Also, there's obvious flaws in every extra unit you add to a combination. Also, some units just don't have good synergy with bio in certain situation. Thors, for example, cannot be used in TvP bio because its impossible to kite and stutter-step with them.
THat was what my last line ment :D
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Regardless of wether the game is balanced or not at the top, I think the game right now is in its worst spot since 2011. Every matchup exept mirrors is pretty much horrible in some way. Take TvZ for excample. This mech turtle style might be viable, but it´s just the most boring playstyle ever. All you do is sitting there, turtling up to 5bases while transitioning into BC/raven/viking with some tanks behind it. once you get there, it´s pretty much lights out for zerg. It´s horrible to play and to play against, absolutely no fun. And it´s heartbreaking to watch. TvP is pretty much fucked up with the new maps. They make the allin play way too strong. And PvZ Swarmhost turtle... just a nightmare. You have those shitty strategies, that require very little skill to pull off, are hard to beat and create those extremely long and boring games.
One can definately say at this point, that with the balancing and map changes we´ve had in the past half of a year, SC2 was totally messed up. I think this will be the last big year of SC2, because the game is just absolutely terrible to play and to watch right now. Even the Broodlord Infestor era in WoL wasn´t that bad!
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On January 15 2014 04:21 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 20:22 Big J wrote:On January 14 2014 06:38 RampancyTW wrote:
Another side effect of delaying warp tech: it allows Z to play a lottt greedier if you know there's no real risk of early attacks. So you might buff gateway units... but then super early pokes with 2-3 units get a lot stronger, etc. You'd have to completely rework all 3 races to mitigate the effects of later warpgate. Or, you know, you buff something else that is not gateway dependend to give Protoss early poke tools against zerg. Watched a proleague game today and the game started with cannon rush, and then oracle play, and then a timing (which came late enough since a warp prism was on the field) in a PvZ. I've been a proposing warp-ins only being possible from a warp prism - thus requiring warp-gate all-ins to atleast require a robo.
That's a horrible idea. Good luck ever defending turbo vac drops ever.
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On January 17 2014 04:42 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 04:21 plogamer wrote:On January 14 2014 20:22 Big J wrote:On January 14 2014 06:38 RampancyTW wrote:
Another side effect of delaying warp tech: it allows Z to play a lottt greedier if you know there's no real risk of early attacks. So you might buff gateway units... but then super early pokes with 2-3 units get a lot stronger, etc. You'd have to completely rework all 3 races to mitigate the effects of later warpgate. Or, you know, you buff something else that is not gateway dependend to give Protoss early poke tools against zerg. Watched a proleague game today and the game started with cannon rush, and then oracle play, and then a timing (which came late enough since a warp prism was on the field) in a PvZ. I've been a proposing warp-ins only being possible from a warp prism - thus requiring warp-gate all-ins to atleast require a robo. That's a horrible idea. Good luck ever defending turbo vac drops ever.
I think every terran would love to get rid of that stupid ability in exchange for proper changes to protoss´ and zerg´s core mechanics.
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On January 17 2014 04:36 TeeTS wrote:
Regardless of wether the game is balanced or not at the top, I think the game right now is in its worst spot since 2011. Every matchup exept mirrors is pretty much horrible in some way. Take TvZ for excample. This mech turtle style might be viable, but it´s just the most boring playstyle ever. All you do is sitting there, turtling up to 5bases while transitioning into BC/raven/viking with some tanks behind it. once you get there, it´s pretty much lights out for zerg. It´s horrible to play and to play against, absolutely no fun. And it´s heartbreaking to watch. TvP is pretty much fucked up with the new maps. They make the allin play way too strong. And PvZ Swarmhost turtle... just a nightmare. You have those shitty strategies, that require very little skill to pull off, are hard to beat and create those extremely long and boring games.
One can definately say at this point, that with the balancing and map changes we´ve had in the past half of a year, SC2 was totally messed up. I think this will be the last big year of SC2, because the game is just absolutely terrible to play and to watch right now. Even the Broodlord Infestor era in WoL wasn´t that bad!
Honestly, I think SC2 has just been on a gradual decline ever since Blizz decided to buff Queen range. The % of great games to mediocre/terrible games is pathetic tbh. I honestly don't want to watch any SC2 right now unless it's TvT. TvZ is slowly becoming a raven-fest (disgusting). TvP is just ridiculous because Protoss is immune to early attacks and can play infinitely greedy/cheesy without a worry in the world. PvZ is fucking stupid. PvP is and always will be the worst matchup in history because of Protoss design. ZvZ can be tolerated, but honestly...do we want to settle for complete mediocrity? The game is fucking terrible right now TO BE COMPLETELY HONEST. I don't care if the game is balanced (according to win %'s)...it's just god awful in its current state...
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I wonder if reducing sight range would be a decent nerf for the MSCore.
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On January 17 2014 04:54 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 04:42 Wingblade wrote:On January 15 2014 04:21 plogamer wrote:On January 14 2014 20:22 Big J wrote:On January 14 2014 06:38 RampancyTW wrote:
Another side effect of delaying warp tech: it allows Z to play a lottt greedier if you know there's no real risk of early attacks. So you might buff gateway units... but then super early pokes with 2-3 units get a lot stronger, etc. You'd have to completely rework all 3 races to mitigate the effects of later warpgate. Or, you know, you buff something else that is not gateway dependend to give Protoss early poke tools against zerg. Watched a proleague game today and the game started with cannon rush, and then oracle play, and then a timing (which came late enough since a warp prism was on the field) in a PvZ. I've been a proposing warp-ins only being possible from a warp prism - thus requiring warp-gate all-ins to atleast require a robo. That's a horrible idea. Good luck ever defending turbo vac drops ever. I think every terran would love to get rid of that stupid ability in exchange for proper changes to protoss´ and zerg´s core mechanics.
yeah, because who would not love to have one ability removed while all your opponents are thrown back into WoL beta stage of figuring out their races.
Also wtf is wrong with "zerg's core mechanics" now as well... (rhetorical question; really don't want to get into a lengthy discussion about "omg injects"; "omg techswitches"; "omg creep" or whatever you have in mind)
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EPT
