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On January 17 2014 05:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 04:54 TeeTS wrote:On January 17 2014 04:42 Wingblade wrote:On January 15 2014 04:21 plogamer wrote:On January 14 2014 20:22 Big J wrote:On January 14 2014 06:38 RampancyTW wrote:
Another side effect of delaying warp tech: it allows Z to play a lottt greedier if you know there's no real risk of early attacks. So you might buff gateway units... but then super early pokes with 2-3 units get a lot stronger, etc. You'd have to completely rework all 3 races to mitigate the effects of later warpgate. Or, you know, you buff something else that is not gateway dependend to give Protoss early poke tools against zerg. Watched a proleague game today and the game started with cannon rush, and then oracle play, and then a timing (which came late enough since a warp prism was on the field) in a PvZ. I've been a proposing warp-ins only being possible from a warp prism - thus requiring warp-gate all-ins to atleast require a robo. That's a horrible idea. Good luck ever defending turbo vac drops ever. I think every terran would love to get rid of that stupid ability in exchange for proper changes to protoss´ and zerg´s core mechanics. yeah, because who would not love to have one ability removed while all your opponents are thrown back into WoL beta stage of figuring out their races. Also wtf is wrong with "zerg's core mechanics" now as well... (rhetorical question; really don't want to get into a lengthy discussion about "omg injects"; "omg techswitches"; "omg creep" or whatever you have in mind)
Well since the game is flawed at its fundamental mechanics, you need to adress the issues there to get any longterm value out of it. I just think that larva inject, stim pack, and protoss as a whole needs to be rebalanced. I don´t mean to totally change the game, but I think the root of all the problems, we have right now, lies there.
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The games for Protoss yesterday had so many abusive elements. In the last game for Flash, Yongwhat literally chained photon overcharge and time warps from 8 minutes onwards to 12 minutes completely negating the effect of any terran army. There was literally no window of opportunity for flash to do damage because the mothership core abilities were so overpowered for the early and mid-stages of the game. The only way Flash could hope to break the protoss was when he finally pulled scv's when he had stim and medavacs which left him behind economically (though flash made the critical mistake of not getting an armory).
In Yeonsu, Keen did his best to hold off a blink all-in, but the protoss player literally chained time warp forcing keen into terrible engagement after terrible engagement. That was the most ridiculous and obnoxious thing I have ever seen in my life. A sentry is vulnerable and can cast forcefields which cost 50 energy at a range of 9 and a radius of 1.7. A mothership core can fly and can cast at timewarp with a range of 9 and a radius of 3.5 for a cost of 75 energy. In the TvP matchup, a timewarp is basically the same if not better than a forcefield because the other guy can't even maneuver and it costs less than forcefield comparatively for the radius of effect. WHAT THE FUCK.
The Mothership Core has so much energy, its abilities are too cheap, and they last too long.
Watching fucking protoss games are like watching league of legend games. It's literally all about spamming mothership core abilities. And the abilities are asymmetrically powerful to a huge and obnoxious extent. Photon overcharge tickles zerg and protoss units but invalidates terran units until they get medavacs. Time Warp lets protoss attack on creep but it's also massively overpowered against terran units on the open map until they can get stim and medavacs. It is also a completely obnoxious and pointless ability in PvP. It doesn't give defender's advantage since the other guy gets a timewarp too. Every battle is basically a time warp for each army; you have to have to have it to counter the other guy's time warp. It literally adds nothing to the matchup. Time warp is overpowered on maps with large important chokes where the defender has a disadvantage concave-wise like Yeonsu as well.
WHY IS TIME WARP IN THE GAME AT ALL? Just so protoss can move onto creep? How does it add anything to the game when protoss already has forcefields? Sentries are suppose to be weak glass cannons that can be targeted by ground units to make up for their force fields. A mothership core can fly and hang over cliffs to use their abilities which are relevant early and mid-game.
I stayed with the game throughout a year of Broodlord Infestor bullshit which I saw slowly kill the game. This mothership core bullshit is just too much for me. If I wanted to watch one guy spam hero abilities on cooldown I would go watch Dota II. Protoss v Anything is so toxic to my sensibilities as a thinking person that I may finally give up the ghost on this broken game.
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well said...
just wanted to say something similar but you did it better...
watching happy against babyknight was horrible.. happy is far more better player with much sicker skill but babyknight used MSC abilites so well to harass and i was like 0.0 when he made two time warps (and MSC helped blink stlakers) and one minute after it been killed was made again and again it had time warp.. toss has too strong early game because of endless options... it is sad to watch PvT and MSC is the biggest problem
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Personally I feel that something has to be done to MSC.
Mostly because:
- Its a great weapon both for defense and for offense.
Defensively it allows Protoss to go for almost infinitive greed (Flash vs Yongwha G2) from one gateway. It is quite common to see Protoss go for 2xForge and Robotics Bay from one gateway when they play the defensive playstyle.
In Wings of Liberty this was not possible becuase Protoss had to spend gas on either Sentries or Immortals to have a defence against the early pokes that we see from Terran. Terran did those to force the Protoss player to warp in Sentries / Chrono out Immortals. In the current state of the game you "bait a Nexus Cannon".
Today Protoss can skip this whole procedure with making units and spend the gas on upgrades and tech instead. This makes Protoss getting a great tech tree without producing almost any units (of couse they need a few).
Protoss can also safely go for example DTs without fearing to be punished. Back in WoL if DTs failed Terran had a huge window to punish the Protoss player who spent alot of tech and gas to make this kind of units fast (Consider Oracle the same type of unit). Today this "timing window" hardly exist due to MSC defensive abilities. Almost any Protoss opening today is safe and Terran has no way to actually get ahead in the early/midgame. The Terran player either just has to survive whatever is thrown at him or make sure that he is not falling behind. As I can see it there are VERY few proffesional games where a Terran player comes out far ahead from the early/midgame vs Protoss. It might rarely happend when a Protoss player goes for oracles without doing any damage.
As an offensive weapon anyone who has payed attention to the Blink Stalker All ins knows how devastating the Time Warp and vision of MSC is. Also it allows for Protoss to use other offensive weapons (DTs and Oracles) without having to fear any counterattack from the Terran player.
The state of TvP clearly brings back the same feelings for me as GG-Lords and Infestors did back in the end of Wings of Liberty. I think the number of Protoss players the teams chooses to send out in Pro League and Terrans representation in Code S quite clearly speaks for itself. Terran is currently not in a good shape.
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I wonder if we'll soon have "enough data" to justify fixing TvP. The race balance in code S is shaping up to be the worst in the history of SC2.
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On January 17 2014 16:45 Bagi wrote:
I wonder if we'll soon have "enough data" to justify fixing TvP. The race balance in code S is shaping up to be the worst in the history of SC2.
That would have to be pretty incredible to beat GomTvT and the BL era.
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On January 17 2014 17:00 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 16:45 Bagi wrote:
I wonder if we'll soon have "enough data" to justify fixing TvP. The race balance in code S is shaping up to be the worst in the history of SC2. That would have to be pretty incredible to beat GomTvT and the BL era.
Looking at the groups it could be very likely that there are only one or two terrans in codeS. I would trade GomTvT for that without even thinking, i think the potential of PvZ all day (especially if Swarmhost/BL turlte becomes standard) could really hurt GSL viewer wise.
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On January 17 2014 17:00 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 16:45 Bagi wrote:
I wonder if we'll soon have "enough data" to justify fixing TvP. The race balance in code S is shaping up to be the worst in the history of SC2. That would have to be pretty incredible to beat GomTvT and the BL era.
Has there ever been a code S with less than 5 players of single race? Because thats shaping up to be a likely scenario for terran.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
Well on the other back in the GomTvT era there wasn't much of Korean Protoss players outside Korea, right? Think about it - jjakji, Bomber, MMA - all IMO code S ro16 quality players, hell jjakji had been Code S player this season until he switched region! Oh, I forgot Taeja 
TBH I don't like the channeling change, on the other hand the rest seems to me fine. And I would like to have update vision range in the Fleet beacon(back to 14), maybe other things to upgrade there. I think the building itself is the safest way to stop blink all-in(Stargate + FB) so the upgrade can be 50/50 or something like this
Edit - or upgrade in Cyber Core to change channeling into the old "point and click" for some amount - I think that this should be some kind of time delay than "cost delay" (price can be really low) so it allows T players to use some timing 
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How do you guys feel about reducing energy regeneration for all spellcasters like infestor, templar, ghost? I dont like the idea of these powerful spells being cast so high number from as early as 10 min into the game. I suppose its most noticeable with templars. But obviously you cant reduce only templar so just reduce the energy regeneration for all these units.
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On January 17 2014 17:54 deacon.frost wrote:Well on the other back in the GomTvT era there wasn't much of Korean Protoss players outside Korea, right? Think about it - jjakji, Bomber, MMA - all IMO code S ro16 quality players, hell jjakji had been Code S player this season until he switched region! Oh, I forgot Taeja TBH I don't like the channeling change, on the other hand the rest seems to me fine. And I would like to have update vision range in the Fleet beacon(back to 14), maybe other things to upgrade there. I think the building itself is the safest way to stop blink all-in(Stargate + FB) so the upgrade can be 50/50 or something like this Edit - or upgrade in Cyber Core to change channeling into the old "point and click" for some amount - I think that this should be some kind of time delay than "cost delay" (price can be really low) so it allows T players to use some timing
Yeah, but you also forget that 1 season is basically equal in length 3 seasons back then. So one season of only 5 Ts would equate to 3 seasons of only 5 Ts.
The reason more terrans are playing in NA/EU is because of the weakness of foreign Ts, so foreign teams are likely to pick up Korean terrans.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On January 17 2014 18:01 Fjodorov wrote:
How do you guys feel about reducing energy regeneration for all spellcasters like infestor, templar, ghost? I dont like the idea of these powerful spells being cast so high number from as early as 10 min into the game. I suppose its most noticeable with templars. But obviously you cant reduce only templar so just reduce the energy regeneration for all these units.
As long as reaching storm equals the build time of ghost/infestor, I'm fine. Otherwise - give me back amulet! 
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On January 17 2014 17:54 deacon.frost wrote:Well on the other back in the GomTvT era there wasn't much of Korean Protoss players outside Korea, right? Think about it - jjakji, Bomber, MMA - all IMO code S ro16 quality players, hell jjakji had been Code S player this season until he switched region! Oh, I forgot Taeja TBH I don't like the channeling change, on the other hand the rest seems to me fine. And I would like to have update vision range in the Fleet beacon(back to 14), maybe other things to upgrade there. I think the building itself is the safest way to stop blink all-in(Stargate + FB) so the upgrade can be 50/50 or something like this Edit - or upgrade in Cyber Core to change channeling into the old "point and click" for some amount - I think that this should be some kind of time delay than "cost delay" (price can be really low) so it allows T players to use some timing
That's actually a sick idea-
Mothership Core Relay - increases the effectiveness of the Mothership Core abilities; +25 Energy on Respawn.
Cost: 50/50 or 100/100, time: 120-140
This gives Terran ample time to abuse the fact the mothershipcore is limited in spells, but halfway midgame the odds even up again!
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On January 17 2014 18:01 Fjodorov wrote:
How do you guys feel about reducing energy regeneration for all spellcasters like infestor, templar, ghost? I dont like the idea of these powerful spells being cast so high number from as early as 10 min into the game. I suppose its most noticeable with templars. But obviously you cant reduce only templar so just reduce the energy regeneration for all these units.
I think that is good for ghosts since 90% of them time, ghosts need to be in front and die after casting EMP (unless the protoss retreats). However, since templars can wrap into archons when they run out of energy, I am not sure it would be 'fair'.
As for MSC, how about a skill unlock at different time intervals that the protoss can choose. One of the issues with MSC is that it is good for both offense (recall, time wrap) and defense. What if you had to choose one spell to have at 0 minutes, 1 more at 15 minutes, 1 more at 20 minutes.
So say in TvP, if you want to commit to blink all and get time wrap, if your blink is defended, you won't have overcharge when terran counters. It means it so you actually HAVE to commit and take a risk if you want to blink all-in. You will actually lose if terran attacks before your blink is ready. Of course, you can still fake blink with overcharge and the terran might attack and find that you actually got overcharge instead.
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Unfortuantely they won't change anything in TvP as long as there are players like Taeja or Maru who keep winning in this matchup.
There are so many wrong things in the game design. Just think about the basic opportunity costs:
Terran
CC: Mule or Scan
Addons: Techlab or Addon or nothing
Protoss
Nexus: Chronoboost or not?
Cybercore: Warpgate or not?
Protoss players don't have the any opportunity costs early game. There is no downside of those spells/upgrades.
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On January 17 2014 18:24 vthree wrote:
So say in TvP, if you want to commit to blink all and get time wrap, if your blink is defended, you won't have overcharge when terran counters. It means it so you actually HAVE to commit and take a risk if you want to blink all-in. You will actually lose if terran attacks before your blink is ready. Of course, you can still fake blink with overcharge and the terran might attack and find that you actually got overcharge instead.
2 things made me laugh while reading your post :D
1. Are you really arguing that you lose a game when your all-in fails?
2. There is no way a Terran (FE play) can win vs Protoss (blink allin build) before blink is ready.
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On January 17 2014 19:19 TurboMaN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 18:24 vthree wrote:
So say in TvP, if you want to commit to blink all and get time wrap, if your blink is defended, you won't have overcharge when terran counters. It means it so you actually HAVE to commit and take a risk if you want to blink all-in. You will actually lose if terran attacks before your blink is ready. Of course, you can still fake blink with overcharge and the terran might attack and find that you actually got overcharge instead.
2 things made me laugh while reading your post :D 1. Are you really arguing that you lose a game when your all-in fails? 2. There is no way a Terran (FE play) can win vs Protoss (blink allin build) before blink is ready.
Are you reading my post correctly? I am saying the Protoss SHOULD lose if his blink all in fails to do significant damage (if they choose to use time wrap, they won't have Overcharge for a LONG time (15 minute mark).
Terran can win if Protoss doesn't have overcharge, right?_
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Well sry if I misread your post.
Do you have a game where a Protoss does a Blink allin and loses the attack but still wins the game?
Normally Protoss dies to the first stim medivac attack.
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EPT
