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United States7483 Posts
On January 18 2014 05:38 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 05:21 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote:
Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size.
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. Hellbat drops were not hard to execute at all. You didn't even really have to micro them: just queue up a couple drops in mineral lines while poking the front with your army: if you got like 4 kills your drop pretty much paid for itself, and hellbats always got more than 4 kills before the nerf. 4 kills yeah wow. And almost always dead hellbat and possibly medivac. Oracles? Well they dont die and 12+ kills is nothing special for ONE oracle. 6-8 kills vs turret is nothing odd either. Oh and you can scout all you want for the rest of the game, also see invisible units with it and track the enemys army with that other spell. Pretty good. Pretty pretty good.
Oracles die all the time, they're more of an investment then you realize, and they do practically no damage at all once the game gets past the early phases, whereas drops do damage all game long. We can both keep nitpicking both sides of things all day long, the point is that the oracle is not nearly as strong a harass option as everyone seems to think it is. It does damage, but it's not difficult to mitigate the damage substantially. If the oracle gets less than 6 kills, it probably didn't even pay for itself given the tech disadvantage you've put yourself in by opening oracle in a PvT, when you really didn't want that stargate. If you pull your workers correctly upon detecting it and aren't blindsided by it you're completely fine. If you do get blindsided by it, it SHOULD do damage. Kinda like how if a protoss gets blindsided by a 4 hellion drop he can just lose an entire mineral line, or baneling drops on mineral lines (don't see those much anymore but they still happen occasionally).
And 4 kills was nothing for a hellbat drop pre-nerf, it wasn't unusual for them to get 10+ constantly.
Oracles are good units. They're probably a tiny bit too good right now, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be.
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On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote:
Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size.
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit.
Wait. We're calling Hellbats as requiring a modicum of skill and Oracles as no skill?
Vhat?
Innovation was massively overhyped.
As for the oracle, it's still no reaver and like many things in this game seems bit binary at times.
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On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote:
Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size.
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit.
No, both were pretty bad. Hellbats were too dominant and in fact probably should've been abused way more. Mvp abused the hellbat marauder push against zerg on the way to winning WCS Europe but every terran at the time was going 4M train instead. Hellbats were finally nerfed when terrans themselves were whining about how dominant they were in TvT as a strategy.
Protosses unfortunately will not do the same because a phoenixe first stargate build strictly dominates an oracle-first stargate build.
Oracles aren't as bad as hellbats since hellbats scaled well into the late game as well and always did guaranteed damage because they were so beefy. But they are a little overpowered right now IMO. They should've been kept the same and gotten an upgrade from fleet beacon or something to make them more useful.
Oracle isn't the balance problem anyways. If the oracle were this strong and the terran could punish a protoss who went like 4 oracles, then the game would be fine. But they can't because oracles force a lot more minerals-only mining early on in order to get ebay and turrets up which delays stim. And you can't break photon overcharge as terran until you have both stim AND medavacs AND probably a lot of your scv's as well. There is almost no way to punish greedy protosses thanks to how OP Photon overcharge and timewarp is against unupgraded bio units. You can't even go mech to punish them as the photon overcharge has the same range as a tank (this makes sense how?).
The core problem has been mothership core which is too powerful. The abilities last too long, are too cheap, and make the game feel like league of legends. Its completely at odds with the game design that made BW popular (where spellcasters are support units).
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On January 18 2014 05:58 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 05:38 Fjodorov wrote:On January 18 2014 05:21 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote:
Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size.
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. Hellbat drops were not hard to execute at all. You didn't even really have to micro them: just queue up a couple drops in mineral lines while poking the front with your army: if you got like 4 kills your drop pretty much paid for itself, and hellbats always got more than 4 kills before the nerf. 4 kills yeah wow. And almost always dead hellbat and possibly medivac. Oracles? Well they dont die and 12+ kills is nothing special for ONE oracle. 6-8 kills vs turret is nothing odd either. Oh and you can scout all you want for the rest of the game, also see invisible units with it and track the enemys army with that other spell. Pretty good. Pretty pretty good. Oracles die all the time, they're more of an investment then you realize, and they do practically no damage at all once the game gets past the early phases, whereas drops do damage all game long. We can both keep nitpicking both sides of things all day long, the point is that the oracle is not nearly as strong a harass option as everyone seems to think it is. It does damage, but it's not difficult to mitigate the damage substantially. If the oracle gets less than 6 kills, it probably didn't even pay for itself given the tech disadvantage you've put yourself in by opening oracle in a PvT, when you really didn't want that stargate. If you pull your workers correctly upon detecting it and aren't blindsided by it you're completely fine. If you do get blindsided by it, it SHOULD do damage. Kinda like how if a protoss gets blindsided by a 4 hellion drop he can just lose an entire mineral line, or baneling drops on mineral lines (don't see those much anymore but they still happen occasionally). And 4 kills was nothing for a hellbat drop pre-nerf, it wasn't unusual for them to get 10+ constantly. Oracles are good units. They're probably a tiny bit too good right now, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be.
Oracles don't get 6-8 kills if they have to get in range of a turret. They might get the 3 SCVs on 1 geyser if T doesn't react. 4 Hellbats on the other hand would just get dropped into Ps base even against a PO unless P had at least 3 stalkers ready at the position where the drop would come from. It didn't matter if 4 hellbats and the medievac died or not. They would always get enough kills while preventing all mining on a base sometimes even both bases to pay for themselves.
I wonder if 1 hellbat 2 hellion drops could get something done nowadays.
I disagree on an oracle having to get 6 kills to pay for itself. The amount of scouting information it can get if not unnecessarily lost is worth a lot more than that. It should be alive all game long.
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On January 18 2014 06:26 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 05:58 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:38 Fjodorov wrote:On January 18 2014 05:21 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote:
Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size.
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. Hellbat drops were not hard to execute at all. You didn't even really have to micro them: just queue up a couple drops in mineral lines while poking the front with your army: if you got like 4 kills your drop pretty much paid for itself, and hellbats always got more than 4 kills before the nerf. 4 kills yeah wow. And almost always dead hellbat and possibly medivac. Oracles? Well they dont die and 12+ kills is nothing special for ONE oracle. 6-8 kills vs turret is nothing odd either. Oh and you can scout all you want for the rest of the game, also see invisible units with it and track the enemys army with that other spell. Pretty good. Pretty pretty good. Oracles die all the time, they're more of an investment then you realize, and they do practically no damage at all once the game gets past the early phases, whereas drops do damage all game long. We can both keep nitpicking both sides of things all day long, the point is that the oracle is not nearly as strong a harass option as everyone seems to think it is. It does damage, but it's not difficult to mitigate the damage substantially. If the oracle gets less than 6 kills, it probably didn't even pay for itself given the tech disadvantage you've put yourself in by opening oracle in a PvT, when you really didn't want that stargate. If you pull your workers correctly upon detecting it and aren't blindsided by it you're completely fine. If you do get blindsided by it, it SHOULD do damage. Kinda like how if a protoss gets blindsided by a 4 hellion drop he can just lose an entire mineral line, or baneling drops on mineral lines (don't see those much anymore but they still happen occasionally). And 4 kills was nothing for a hellbat drop pre-nerf, it wasn't unusual for them to get 10+ constantly. Oracles are good units. They're probably a tiny bit too good right now, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Oracles don't get 6-8 kills if they have to get in range of a turret. They might get the 3 SCVs on 1 geyser if T doesn't react. 4 Hellbats on the other hand would just get dropped into Ps base even against a PO unless P had at least 3 stalkers ready at the position where the drop would come from. It didn't matter if 4 hellbats and the medievac died or not. They would always get enough kills while preventing all mining on a base sometimes even both bases to pay for themselves. I wonder if 1 hellbat 2 hellion drops could get something done nowadays. I disagree on an oracle having to get 6 kills to pay for itself. The amount of scouting information it can get if not unnecessarily lost is worth a lot more than that. It should be alive all game long.
Not only that, but the fact that if there are oracles on the map, the terran can't attack before having at least 2 tourets so it delays a lot any early pressure with marines, leaving the protoss a lot of time to macro quietly.
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On January 18 2014 06:44 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 06:26 Ravomat wrote:On January 18 2014 05:58 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:38 Fjodorov wrote:On January 18 2014 05:21 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote:
Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size.
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. Hellbat drops were not hard to execute at all. You didn't even really have to micro them: just queue up a couple drops in mineral lines while poking the front with your army: if you got like 4 kills your drop pretty much paid for itself, and hellbats always got more than 4 kills before the nerf. 4 kills yeah wow. And almost always dead hellbat and possibly medivac. Oracles? Well they dont die and 12+ kills is nothing special for ONE oracle. 6-8 kills vs turret is nothing odd either. Oh and you can scout all you want for the rest of the game, also see invisible units with it and track the enemys army with that other spell. Pretty good. Pretty pretty good. Oracles die all the time, they're more of an investment then you realize, and they do practically no damage at all once the game gets past the early phases, whereas drops do damage all game long. We can both keep nitpicking both sides of things all day long, the point is that the oracle is not nearly as strong a harass option as everyone seems to think it is. It does damage, but it's not difficult to mitigate the damage substantially. If the oracle gets less than 6 kills, it probably didn't even pay for itself given the tech disadvantage you've put yourself in by opening oracle in a PvT, when you really didn't want that stargate. If you pull your workers correctly upon detecting it and aren't blindsided by it you're completely fine. If you do get blindsided by it, it SHOULD do damage. Kinda like how if a protoss gets blindsided by a 4 hellion drop he can just lose an entire mineral line, or baneling drops on mineral lines (don't see those much anymore but they still happen occasionally). And 4 kills was nothing for a hellbat drop pre-nerf, it wasn't unusual for them to get 10+ constantly. Oracles are good units. They're probably a tiny bit too good right now, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Oracles don't get 6-8 kills if they have to get in range of a turret. They might get the 3 SCVs on 1 geyser if T doesn't react. 4 Hellbats on the other hand would just get dropped into Ps base even against a PO unless P had at least 3 stalkers ready at the position where the drop would come from. It didn't matter if 4 hellbats and the medievac died or not. They would always get enough kills while preventing all mining on a base sometimes even both bases to pay for themselves. I wonder if 1 hellbat 2 hellion drops could get something done nowadays. I disagree on an oracle having to get 6 kills to pay for itself. The amount of scouting information it can get if not unnecessarily lost is worth a lot more than that. It should be alive all game long. Not only that, but the fact that if there are oracles on the map, the terran can't attack before having at least 2 tourettes so it delays a lot any early pressure with marines, leaving the protoss a lot of time to macro quietly.
You're god damn right.
+ Show Spoiler +Edited the typo to be more explicit.
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On January 18 2014 06:26 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 05:58 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:38 Fjodorov wrote:On January 18 2014 05:21 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote:
Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size.
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. Hellbat drops were not hard to execute at all. You didn't even really have to micro them: just queue up a couple drops in mineral lines while poking the front with your army: if you got like 4 kills your drop pretty much paid for itself, and hellbats always got more than 4 kills before the nerf. 4 kills yeah wow. And almost always dead hellbat and possibly medivac. Oracles? Well they dont die and 12+ kills is nothing special for ONE oracle. 6-8 kills vs turret is nothing odd either. Oh and you can scout all you want for the rest of the game, also see invisible units with it and track the enemys army with that other spell. Pretty good. Pretty pretty good. Oracles die all the time, they're more of an investment then you realize, and they do practically no damage at all once the game gets past the early phases, whereas drops do damage all game long. We can both keep nitpicking both sides of things all day long, the point is that the oracle is not nearly as strong a harass option as everyone seems to think it is. It does damage, but it's not difficult to mitigate the damage substantially. If the oracle gets less than 6 kills, it probably didn't even pay for itself given the tech disadvantage you've put yourself in by opening oracle in a PvT, when you really didn't want that stargate. If you pull your workers correctly upon detecting it and aren't blindsided by it you're completely fine. If you do get blindsided by it, it SHOULD do damage. Kinda like how if a protoss gets blindsided by a 4 hellion drop he can just lose an entire mineral line, or baneling drops on mineral lines (don't see those much anymore but they still happen occasionally). And 4 kills was nothing for a hellbat drop pre-nerf, it wasn't unusual for them to get 10+ constantly. Oracles are good units. They're probably a tiny bit too good right now, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Oracles don't get 6-8 kills if they have to get in range of a turret. They might get the 3 SCVs on 1 geyser if T doesn't react. 4 Hellbats on the other hand would just get dropped into Ps base even against a PO unless P had at least 3 stalkers ready at the position where the drop would come from. It didn't matter if 4 hellbats and the medievac died or not. They would always get enough kills while preventing all mining on a base sometimes even both bases to pay for themselves. I wonder if 1 hellbat 2 hellion drops could get something done nowadays. I disagree on an oracle having to get 6 kills to pay for itself. The amount of scouting information it can get if not unnecessarily lost is worth a lot more than that. It should be alive all game long.
scvs at gas, transfering scvs, scvs that are building, spawning marines. Getting 6 kills even though terran invested in a turret is np most of the time. The turrets are just so you dont straight up die. Because you know, thats what happens. Look at Super vs Fantasy yesterday. Super goes oracle AND expand right after and it pretty much kills fantasy. A build where you basically fast expand shouldnt be able to outright kill the opponent with 1 unit if your opponent is playing standard.
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On January 18 2014 06:47 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 06:44 Faust852 wrote:On January 18 2014 06:26 Ravomat wrote:On January 18 2014 05:58 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:38 Fjodorov wrote:On January 18 2014 05:21 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote:
Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size.
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. Hellbat drops were not hard to execute at all. You didn't even really have to micro them: just queue up a couple drops in mineral lines while poking the front with your army: if you got like 4 kills your drop pretty much paid for itself, and hellbats always got more than 4 kills before the nerf. 4 kills yeah wow. And almost always dead hellbat and possibly medivac. Oracles? Well they dont die and 12+ kills is nothing special for ONE oracle. 6-8 kills vs turret is nothing odd either. Oh and you can scout all you want for the rest of the game, also see invisible units with it and track the enemys army with that other spell. Pretty good. Pretty pretty good. Oracles die all the time, they're more of an investment then you realize, and they do practically no damage at all once the game gets past the early phases, whereas drops do damage all game long. We can both keep nitpicking both sides of things all day long, the point is that the oracle is not nearly as strong a harass option as everyone seems to think it is. It does damage, but it's not difficult to mitigate the damage substantially. If the oracle gets less than 6 kills, it probably didn't even pay for itself given the tech disadvantage you've put yourself in by opening oracle in a PvT, when you really didn't want that stargate. If you pull your workers correctly upon detecting it and aren't blindsided by it you're completely fine. If you do get blindsided by it, it SHOULD do damage. Kinda like how if a protoss gets blindsided by a 4 hellion drop he can just lose an entire mineral line, or baneling drops on mineral lines (don't see those much anymore but they still happen occasionally). And 4 kills was nothing for a hellbat drop pre-nerf, it wasn't unusual for them to get 10+ constantly. Oracles are good units. They're probably a tiny bit too good right now, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Oracles don't get 6-8 kills if they have to get in range of a turret. They might get the 3 SCVs on 1 geyser if T doesn't react. 4 Hellbats on the other hand would just get dropped into Ps base even against a PO unless P had at least 3 stalkers ready at the position where the drop would come from. It didn't matter if 4 hellbats and the medievac died or not. They would always get enough kills while preventing all mining on a base sometimes even both bases to pay for themselves. I wonder if 1 hellbat 2 hellion drops could get something done nowadays. I disagree on an oracle having to get 6 kills to pay for itself. The amount of scouting information it can get if not unnecessarily lost is worth a lot more than that. It should be alive all game long. Not only that, but the fact that if there are oracles on the map, the terran can't attack before having at least 2 tourettes so it delays a lot any early pressure with marines, leaving the protoss a lot of time to macro quietly. You're god damn right. + Show Spoiler +Edited the typo to be more explicit.
lol 
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On January 18 2014 06:50 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 06:26 Ravomat wrote:On January 18 2014 05:58 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:38 Fjodorov wrote:On January 18 2014 05:21 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote:
Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size.
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. Hellbat drops were not hard to execute at all. You didn't even really have to micro them: just queue up a couple drops in mineral lines while poking the front with your army: if you got like 4 kills your drop pretty much paid for itself, and hellbats always got more than 4 kills before the nerf. 4 kills yeah wow. And almost always dead hellbat and possibly medivac. Oracles? Well they dont die and 12+ kills is nothing special for ONE oracle. 6-8 kills vs turret is nothing odd either. Oh and you can scout all you want for the rest of the game, also see invisible units with it and track the enemys army with that other spell. Pretty good. Pretty pretty good. Oracles die all the time, they're more of an investment then you realize, and they do practically no damage at all once the game gets past the early phases, whereas drops do damage all game long. We can both keep nitpicking both sides of things all day long, the point is that the oracle is not nearly as strong a harass option as everyone seems to think it is. It does damage, but it's not difficult to mitigate the damage substantially. If the oracle gets less than 6 kills, it probably didn't even pay for itself given the tech disadvantage you've put yourself in by opening oracle in a PvT, when you really didn't want that stargate. If you pull your workers correctly upon detecting it and aren't blindsided by it you're completely fine. If you do get blindsided by it, it SHOULD do damage. Kinda like how if a protoss gets blindsided by a 4 hellion drop he can just lose an entire mineral line, or baneling drops on mineral lines (don't see those much anymore but they still happen occasionally). And 4 kills was nothing for a hellbat drop pre-nerf, it wasn't unusual for them to get 10+ constantly. Oracles are good units. They're probably a tiny bit too good right now, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Oracles don't get 6-8 kills if they have to get in range of a turret. They might get the 3 SCVs on 1 geyser if T doesn't react. 4 Hellbats on the other hand would just get dropped into Ps base even against a PO unless P had at least 3 stalkers ready at the position where the drop would come from. It didn't matter if 4 hellbats and the medievac died or not. They would always get enough kills while preventing all mining on a base sometimes even both bases to pay for themselves. I wonder if 1 hellbat 2 hellion drops could get something done nowadays. I disagree on an oracle having to get 6 kills to pay for itself. The amount of scouting information it can get if not unnecessarily lost is worth a lot more than that. It should be alive all game long. scvs at gas, transfering scvs, scvs that are building, spawning marines. Getting 6 kills even though terran invested in a turret is np most of the time. The turrets are just so you dont straight up die. Because you know, thats what happens. Look at Super vs Fantasy yesterday. Super goes oracle AND expand right after and it pretty much kills fantasy. A build where you basically fast expand shouldnt be able to outright kill the opponent with 1 unit if your opponent is playing standard.
I agree with your last statement. A high damage air unit that comes so early will always be a problem in any game.
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On January 18 2014 07:24 Ravomat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 06:50 Fjodorov wrote:On January 18 2014 06:26 Ravomat wrote:On January 18 2014 05:58 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:38 Fjodorov wrote:On January 18 2014 05:21 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote:
Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size.
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. Hellbat drops were not hard to execute at all. You didn't even really have to micro them: just queue up a couple drops in mineral lines while poking the front with your army: if you got like 4 kills your drop pretty much paid for itself, and hellbats always got more than 4 kills before the nerf. 4 kills yeah wow. And almost always dead hellbat and possibly medivac. Oracles? Well they dont die and 12+ kills is nothing special for ONE oracle. 6-8 kills vs turret is nothing odd either. Oh and you can scout all you want for the rest of the game, also see invisible units with it and track the enemys army with that other spell. Pretty good. Pretty pretty good. Oracles die all the time, they're more of an investment then you realize, and they do practically no damage at all once the game gets past the early phases, whereas drops do damage all game long. We can both keep nitpicking both sides of things all day long, the point is that the oracle is not nearly as strong a harass option as everyone seems to think it is. It does damage, but it's not difficult to mitigate the damage substantially. If the oracle gets less than 6 kills, it probably didn't even pay for itself given the tech disadvantage you've put yourself in by opening oracle in a PvT, when you really didn't want that stargate. If you pull your workers correctly upon detecting it and aren't blindsided by it you're completely fine. If you do get blindsided by it, it SHOULD do damage. Kinda like how if a protoss gets blindsided by a 4 hellion drop he can just lose an entire mineral line, or baneling drops on mineral lines (don't see those much anymore but they still happen occasionally). And 4 kills was nothing for a hellbat drop pre-nerf, it wasn't unusual for them to get 10+ constantly. Oracles are good units. They're probably a tiny bit too good right now, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Oracles don't get 6-8 kills if they have to get in range of a turret. They might get the 3 SCVs on 1 geyser if T doesn't react. 4 Hellbats on the other hand would just get dropped into Ps base even against a PO unless P had at least 3 stalkers ready at the position where the drop would come from. It didn't matter if 4 hellbats and the medievac died or not. They would always get enough kills while preventing all mining on a base sometimes even both bases to pay for themselves. I wonder if 1 hellbat 2 hellion drops could get something done nowadays. I disagree on an oracle having to get 6 kills to pay for itself. The amount of scouting information it can get if not unnecessarily lost is worth a lot more than that. It should be alive all game long. scvs at gas, transfering scvs, scvs that are building, spawning marines. Getting 6 kills even though terran invested in a turret is np most of the time. The turrets are just so you dont straight up die. Because you know, thats what happens. Look at Super vs Fantasy yesterday. Super goes oracle AND expand right after and it pretty much kills fantasy. A build where you basically fast expand shouldnt be able to outright kill the opponent with 1 unit if your opponent is playing standard. I agree with your last statement. A high damage air unit that comes so early will always be a problem in any game.
Simply no.
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Hi Zerg Players,
I would like to apologize to all the Zerg. For years I have been ignorant of Zerg pain. I have for years played the Terran race, and never understood why Zerg was such a cry baby race. Since I started college, I don't consistently play Starcraft. Thus when I noticed when my rank fell far below my usual Summer average I decided it was the perfect time to switch race to Zerg.
I feel your pain now Zerg T_T. I played a match where Terran 1 based vs. my 3 base Zerg. Although I definitely made alot more workers and units then he did, I just fell apart to his constant Medivac harass(off of 1 damn base). Damn I feel like crap. Terran can make so much crap off 1 base. I never realized that until I switched. And losing to such stupidity is pretty disheartening. I think the hardest part of learning Zerg has definitely got to be the adjusting to the flow of the game. As a Terran player, I played very mechanical, just like I did in BW. But, playing as Zerg learning to scout and maintain map control and adjusting to your opponent is a steep learning curve I have to climb if I ever want to reach the levels i did with my Terran play. T_T
Sowy for not understanding B4,
Gindo 
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On January 18 2014 11:27 GinDo wrote:Hi Zerg Players, I would like to apologize to all the Zerg. For years I have been ignorant of Zerg pain. I have for years played the Terran race, and never understood why Zerg was such a cry baby race. Since I started college, I don't consistently play Starcraft. Thus when I noticed when my rank fell far below my usual Summer average I decided it was the perfect time to switch race to Zerg. I feel your pain now Zerg T_T. I played a match where Terran 1 based vs. my 3 base Zerg. Although I definitely made alot more workers and units then he did, I just fell apart to his constant Medivac harass(off of 1 damn base). Damn I feel like crap. Terran can make so much crap off 1 base. I never realized that until I switched. And losing to such stupidity is pretty disheartening. I think the hardest part of learning Zerg has definitely got to be the adjusting to the flow of the game. As a Terran player, I played very mechanical, just like I did in BW. But, playing as Zerg learning to scout and maintain map control and adjusting to your opponent is a steep learning curve I have to climb if I ever want to reach the levels i did with my Terran play. T_T Sowy for not understanding B4, Gindo
At least you don't have to deal with bunker contain or pylon block.
God they still give me nightmare.
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On January 18 2014 11:27 GinDo wrote:Hi Zerg Players, I would like to apologize to all the Zerg. For years I have been ignorant of Zerg pain. I have for years played the Terran race, and never understood why Zerg was such a cry baby race. Since I started college, I don't consistently play Starcraft. Thus when I noticed when my rank fell far below my usual Summer average I decided it was the perfect time to switch race to Zerg. I feel your pain now Zerg T_T. I played a match where Terran 1 based vs. my 3 base Zerg. Although I definitely made alot more workers and units then he did, I just fell apart to his constant Medivac harass(off of 1 damn base). Damn I feel like crap. Terran can make so much crap off 1 base. I never realized that until I switched. And losing to such stupidity is pretty disheartening. I think the hardest part of learning Zerg has definitely got to be the adjusting to the flow of the game. As a Terran player, I played very mechanical, just like I did in BW. But, playing as Zerg learning to scout and maintain map control and adjusting to your opponent is a steep learning curve I have to climb if I ever want to reach the levels i did with my Terran play. T_T Sowy for not understanding B4, Gindo
Please do switch back to terran and 1 base against zergs and see how far that takes you. Your post is frankly a little insulting.
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On January 18 2014 05:21 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote:
Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size.
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. Hellbat drops were not hard to execute at all. You didn't even really have to micro them: just queue up a couple drops in mineral lines while poking the front with your army: if you got like 4 kills your drop pretty much paid for itself, and hellbats always got more than 4 kills before the nerf.
I actually laughed out loud at this. 4 kills is worth it huh? I hellbat drop was a 300/100 investment, but only 4 workers makes that worth it? Right..
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On January 18 2014 07:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 07:24 Ravomat wrote:On January 18 2014 06:50 Fjodorov wrote:On January 18 2014 06:26 Ravomat wrote:On January 18 2014 05:58 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:38 Fjodorov wrote:On January 18 2014 05:21 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote:
Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size.
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. Hellbat drops were not hard to execute at all. You didn't even really have to micro them: just queue up a couple drops in mineral lines while poking the front with your army: if you got like 4 kills your drop pretty much paid for itself, and hellbats always got more than 4 kills before the nerf. 4 kills yeah wow. And almost always dead hellbat and possibly medivac. Oracles? Well they dont die and 12+ kills is nothing special for ONE oracle. 6-8 kills vs turret is nothing odd either. Oh and you can scout all you want for the rest of the game, also see invisible units with it and track the enemys army with that other spell. Pretty good. Pretty pretty good. Oracles die all the time, they're more of an investment then you realize, and they do practically no damage at all once the game gets past the early phases, whereas drops do damage all game long. We can both keep nitpicking both sides of things all day long, the point is that the oracle is not nearly as strong a harass option as everyone seems to think it is. It does damage, but it's not difficult to mitigate the damage substantially. If the oracle gets less than 6 kills, it probably didn't even pay for itself given the tech disadvantage you've put yourself in by opening oracle in a PvT, when you really didn't want that stargate. If you pull your workers correctly upon detecting it and aren't blindsided by it you're completely fine. If you do get blindsided by it, it SHOULD do damage. Kinda like how if a protoss gets blindsided by a 4 hellion drop he can just lose an entire mineral line, or baneling drops on mineral lines (don't see those much anymore but they still happen occasionally). And 4 kills was nothing for a hellbat drop pre-nerf, it wasn't unusual for them to get 10+ constantly. Oracles are good units. They're probably a tiny bit too good right now, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Oracles don't get 6-8 kills if they have to get in range of a turret. They might get the 3 SCVs on 1 geyser if T doesn't react. 4 Hellbats on the other hand would just get dropped into Ps base even against a PO unless P had at least 3 stalkers ready at the position where the drop would come from. It didn't matter if 4 hellbats and the medievac died or not. They would always get enough kills while preventing all mining on a base sometimes even both bases to pay for themselves. I wonder if 1 hellbat 2 hellion drops could get something done nowadays. I disagree on an oracle having to get 6 kills to pay for itself. The amount of scouting information it can get if not unnecessarily lost is worth a lot more than that. It should be alive all game long. scvs at gas, transfering scvs, scvs that are building, spawning marines. Getting 6 kills even though terran invested in a turret is np most of the time. The turrets are just so you dont straight up die. Because you know, thats what happens. Look at Super vs Fantasy yesterday. Super goes oracle AND expand right after and it pretty much kills fantasy. A build where you basically fast expand shouldnt be able to outright kill the opponent with 1 unit if your opponent is playing standard. I agree with your last statement. A high damage air unit that comes so early will always be a problem in any game. Simply no.
what a compelling argument! I guess when Terrans have to mold every build in TvP against the possibility of oracles, that's okay right?
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Russian Federation125 Posts
Don't worry guys. Now finally only skilled terrans will be in GSL code S like Maru.
I'm sure terran will have 70%+ TvP winrate in code S so that Kim might even concider nerfing T a bit in the sake of ballance )
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On January 18 2014 18:03 dargul wrote:Don't worry guys. Now finally only skilled terrans will be in GSL code S like Maru. I'm sure terran will have 70%+ TvP winrate in code S so that Kim might even concider nerfing T a bit in the sake of ballance )
The sad thing, even i think it is sarcasm, is that it might really happen that way. It´s not that unrealistic that Teaja and Maru win CodeS and WCS NA and then they say "everything is fine balancewise just play like this two guys. We maybe look into the Bunker and Stim research time".
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On January 18 2014 16:33 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 07:43 Big J wrote:On January 18 2014 07:24 Ravomat wrote:On January 18 2014 06:50 Fjodorov wrote:On January 18 2014 06:26 Ravomat wrote:On January 18 2014 05:58 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:38 Fjodorov wrote:On January 18 2014 05:21 Whitewing wrote:On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:
[quote]
Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins.
Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. Hellbat drops were not hard to execute at all. You didn't even really have to micro them: just queue up a couple drops in mineral lines while poking the front with your army: if you got like 4 kills your drop pretty much paid for itself, and hellbats always got more than 4 kills before the nerf. 4 kills yeah wow. And almost always dead hellbat and possibly medivac. Oracles? Well they dont die and 12+ kills is nothing special for ONE oracle. 6-8 kills vs turret is nothing odd either. Oh and you can scout all you want for the rest of the game, also see invisible units with it and track the enemys army with that other spell. Pretty good. Pretty pretty good. Oracles die all the time, they're more of an investment then you realize, and they do practically no damage at all once the game gets past the early phases, whereas drops do damage all game long. We can both keep nitpicking both sides of things all day long, the point is that the oracle is not nearly as strong a harass option as everyone seems to think it is. It does damage, but it's not difficult to mitigate the damage substantially. If the oracle gets less than 6 kills, it probably didn't even pay for itself given the tech disadvantage you've put yourself in by opening oracle in a PvT, when you really didn't want that stargate. If you pull your workers correctly upon detecting it and aren't blindsided by it you're completely fine. If you do get blindsided by it, it SHOULD do damage. Kinda like how if a protoss gets blindsided by a 4 hellion drop he can just lose an entire mineral line, or baneling drops on mineral lines (don't see those much anymore but they still happen occasionally). And 4 kills was nothing for a hellbat drop pre-nerf, it wasn't unusual for them to get 10+ constantly. Oracles are good units. They're probably a tiny bit too good right now, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Oracles don't get 6-8 kills if they have to get in range of a turret. They might get the 3 SCVs on 1 geyser if T doesn't react. 4 Hellbats on the other hand would just get dropped into Ps base even against a PO unless P had at least 3 stalkers ready at the position where the drop would come from. It didn't matter if 4 hellbats and the medievac died or not. They would always get enough kills while preventing all mining on a base sometimes even both bases to pay for themselves. I wonder if 1 hellbat 2 hellion drops could get something done nowadays. I disagree on an oracle having to get 6 kills to pay for itself. The amount of scouting information it can get if not unnecessarily lost is worth a lot more than that. It should be alive all game long. scvs at gas, transfering scvs, scvs that are building, spawning marines. Getting 6 kills even though terran invested in a turret is np most of the time. The turrets are just so you dont straight up die. Because you know, thats what happens. Look at Super vs Fantasy yesterday. Super goes oracle AND expand right after and it pretty much kills fantasy. A build where you basically fast expand shouldnt be able to outright kill the opponent with 1 unit if your opponent is playing standard. I agree with your last statement. A high damage air unit that comes so early will always be a problem in any game. Simply no. what a compelling argument! I guess when Terrans have to mold every build in TvP against the possibility of oracles, that's okay right?
No, sorry, wasn't clear enough. Just "simply no" to the generalization about air units.
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On January 18 2014 18:22 Micro_Jackson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 18:03 dargul wrote:Don't worry guys. Now finally only skilled terrans will be in GSL code S like Maru. I'm sure terran will have 70%+ TvP winrate in code S so that Kim might even concider nerfing T a bit in the sake of ballance ) The sad thing, even i think it is sarcasm, is that it might really happen that way. It´s not that unrealistic that Teaja and Maru win CodeS and WCS NA and then they say "everything is fine balancewise just play like this two guys. We maybe look into the Bunker and Stim research time".
Well...
We did have 6-8 months of broodlord/infestor that we were told to play like the #1 or 2 terran players in the world who squeaked out wins.
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On January 18 2014 06:16 Diogenes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote:On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote:On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote:
Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size.
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. No, both were pretty bad. Hellbats were too dominant and in fact probably should've been abused way more. Mvp abused the hellbat marauder push against zerg on the way to winning WCS Europe but every terran at the time was going 4M train instead. Hellbats were finally nerfed when terrans themselves were whining about how dominant they were in TvT as a strategy. Protosses unfortunately will not do the same because a phoenixe first stargate build strictly dominates an oracle-first stargate build. Oracles aren't as bad as hellbats since hellbats scaled well into the late game as well and always did guaranteed damage because they were so beefy. But they are a little overpowered right now IMO. They should've been kept the same and gotten an upgrade from fleet beacon or something to make them more useful. Oracle isn't the balance problem anyways. If the oracle were this strong and the terran could punish a protoss who went like 4 oracles, then the game would be fine. But they can't because oracles force a lot more minerals-only mining early on in order to get ebay and turrets up which delays stim. And you can't break photon overcharge as terran until you have both stim AND medavacs AND probably a lot of your scv's as well. There is almost no way to punish greedy protosses thanks to how OP Photon overcharge and timewarp is against unupgraded bio units. You can't even go mech to punish them as the photon overcharge has the same range as a tank (this makes sense how?). The core problem has been mothership core which is too powerful. The abilities last too long, are too cheap, and make the game feel like league of legends. Its completely at odds with the game design that made BW popular (where spellcasters are support units).
Just because Mvp can use certain strats against inferior foreigners for easy win doesn't mean they are imba strats, Clearly Mvp couldn't have used the same strats against code S Koreans. I'm not sure what you meant hellbats could have been abused more. Maybe the hellbats drop defense could have been better as well? (in fact they were being figured out).
I was mainly commenting from the design perspective. You always have to micro hellbats with medivacs and this encourages multitasking. Hellbat drop battle in TvT is always chaotic and exciting and clearly shows who is the better multitasker. The same cannot be said about oracle, one of the most anticlimatic units in the game. Terran try to early pressure protoss, oracle sneak in kill 10 scvs, good skill, gg. This unit deserves to be nerfed a lot more than the hellbat.
The hellbats could also fix some of the problem with terran currently. DK would not have had to buff air upgrade leading to the sky terran shit, and mech would still be viable vs Z, but more harass and timing based. Protoss would not be able to play as greedy as we are seeing if there is hellbat drop threat.
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EPT
