Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 881

On January 18 2014 20:39 Glorfindel! wrote:
Meanwhile I find it quite funny how Hellbats and Mines got nerfed quite fast meanwhile we have to "wait and see" regarding SpeedOracles and Mothership Core. Both units at the stupidity levels as the batmines.

On January 18 2014 06:50 Fjodorov wrote:


scvs at gas, transfering scvs, scvs that are building, spawning marines. Getting 6 kills even though terran invested in a turret is np most of the time. The turrets are just so you dont straight up die. Because you know, thats what happens. Look at Super vs Fantasy yesterday. Super goes oracle AND expand right after and it pretty much kills fantasy. A build where you basically fast expand shouldnt be able to outright kill the opponent with 1 unit if your opponent is playing standard.

On January 18 2014 21:54 ZenithM wrote:

If an oracle kills you, you weren't playing standard. By that I mean that it's extremely annoying that the existence of oracle alone made it so that the standard TvP strat is to curl up into a ball and bunker/turret up for like 9-10 minutes.
Some will say "LOL that's what PvT was about in WoL!". Yes, but Protoss could cling to the hope of having the massively more powerful and easier to control lategame unit compositions. Terran doesn't have that luxury.
I hate that we basically only have a window of 30s-1m to be only "mildly annoying" to Protoss. Before and after that, it's Lazors Happy Hour.

Edit: I still like playing the match-up, mind you, because I like to micro my bio units, but watching Terran lose to 1 oracle double expand into blink double forge colossus off of 1 gate makes me quite sad.

On January 19 2014 05:34 Qwerty85 wrote:
The biggest problem of TvP when you compare it to WoL (and matchup is basically identical in terms of army compositions) is that terran mid game advantage we had in WoL basically disappeared.

1. The threat of aggressive builds forces terran to commit more to defense which means you will hit the stim+medivac timing later or it will be weaker. Good example is how making an engineering bay at 4 minutes, followed by 1-2 turrets significantly cuts into your barracks timing. This also means later stim, combat shield, factory, medivacs etc. Also it is very risky to open gasless so that as well slows terran down. It is risky to skip the bunker becasue of the MSC, stalker, zealot threat. It is risky to make tech lab your 1st addon and start stim faster becasue of oracle threat. These days you basically take your natural the same time as protoss which was not the case in WoL.

2. Protoss stronger early game defense means less gass spent on sentries and faster teching.

3. Extreme predictability of terran openings compared to protoss openings and scouting requirements for both races. Going for a diverse build like proxy factory is extremley risky because not only puts you way behind if it fails (like Flash vs. Sora) but it is also very risky becasue of blink or oracle threat. So protoss has very little to be concerned about and it is much easier to scout terran on top of that with researched hallucination (even if he goes for something unortodox). At the same time, terran is required to scout protoss main at least 2-3 times (to see gases, then tech choice like blink and then also number of gates) not to mention looking around the map for proxies.

If you don't get all information than #1 gets even worse because you often must overcommit on defense.


So when you compare weaker terran early-mid game (first 10 minutes) to stronger protoss early-mid game, it is obvious that terran mid game timing doesn't really exist anymore.

Terran's first tech will always be medivacs while protoss goes straight to storm or colossus. Having storm finished and ready to cast around 10.30 (when terran will get to your base) is now a common thing. Having both tech paths by 15-16 minutes became common as well.

We often see terrans adding up to 5 barracks to put pressure (it became a very heavy commitment), only to fall behind in upgrades, tech like ghosts, vikings etc. because they can't really delay protoss third long enough. Then when terran loses, the explanation is usually - well he was behind in upgrades or he had no ghosts etc. But again, compared to WoL, terran needs to have economic advantage in the mid game to be able to fight protoss in the late game on equal terms.

We already experienced first hand how strong early game defense can affect whole matchup severely - buffing queens and overlord speed led to infestor-broodlord era. The problem was not that much in units itself (even though infestors were almost an answer to everything) but also how fast would zerg get to hive tech because of safer early game.

My suggestions to TvP would be only early game based. First of all, oracle should come a bit later than now. Secondly, time warp is too cheap and too strong of a spell to cost only 75 energy. We see games where protoss uses up to 3 time warps doing no commitment 3 gate blink while terran needs to commit a lot to bunkers just not to die on same or better production (3 barracks with addons). Also, the huge sight radius makes it impossible to snipe the MSC with early game units which could delay the push (like scanning and killing observer in WoL) and also gives protoss full vision of the edge of terran base so you never risk blinking into a heavily defended area.

So basically - proxy oracle should come later (now I think the fastest is around 5.10)
MSC vision reduced from 14 to 10 and time warp costs 100 energy or lasts shorter than 30 seconds or has a smaller radius.

On January 19 2014 05:34 Qwerty85 wrote:
The biggest problem of TvP when you compare it to WoL (and matchup is basically identical in terms of army compositions) is that terran mid game advantage we had in WoL basically disappeared.

1. The threat of aggressive builds forces terran to commit more to defense which means you will hit the stim+medivac timing later or it will be weaker. Good example is how making an engineering bay at 4 minutes, followed by 1-2 turrets significantly cuts into your barracks timing. This also means later stim, combat shield, factory, medivacs etc. Also it is very risky to open gasless so that as well slows terran down. It is risky to skip the bunker becasue of the MSC, stalker, zealot threat. It is risky to make tech lab your 1st addon and start stim faster becasue of oracle threat. These days you basically take your natural the same time as protoss which was not the case in WoL.

2. Protoss stronger early game defense means less gass spent on sentries and faster teching.

3. Extreme predictability of terran openings compared to protoss openings and scouting requirements for both races. Going for a diverse build like proxy factory is extremley risky because not only puts you way behind if it fails (like Flash vs. Sora) but it is also very risky becasue of blink or oracle threat. So protoss has very little to be concerned about and it is much easier to scout terran on top of that with researched hallucination (even if he goes for something unortodox). At the same time, terran is required to scout protoss main at least 2-3 times (to see gases, then tech choice like blink and then also number of gates) not to mention looking around the map for proxies.

If you don't get all information than #1 gets even worse because you often must overcommit on defense.


So when you compare weaker terran early-mid game (first 10 minutes) to stronger protoss early-mid game, it is obvious that terran mid game timing doesn't really exist anymore.

Terran's first tech will always be medivacs while protoss goes straight to storm or colossus. Having storm finished and ready to cast around 10.30 (when terran will get to your base) is now a common thing. Having both tech paths by 15-16 minutes became common as well.

We often see terrans adding up to 5 barracks to put pressure (it became a very heavy commitment), only to fall behind in upgrades, tech like ghosts, vikings etc. because they can't really delay protoss third long enough. Then when terran loses, the explanation is usually - well he was behind in upgrades or he had no ghosts etc. But again, compared to WoL, terran needs to have economic advantage in the mid game to be able to fight protoss in the late game on equal terms.

We already experienced first hand how strong early game defense can affect whole matchup severely - buffing queens and overlord speed led to infestor-broodlord era. The problem was not that much in units itself (even though infestors were almost an answer to everything) but also how fast would zerg get to hive tech because of safer early game.

My suggestions to TvP would be only early game based. First of all, oracle should come a bit later than now. Secondly, time warp is too cheap and too strong of a spell to cost only 75 energy. We see games where protoss uses up to 3 time warps doing no commitment 3 gate blink while terran needs to commit a lot to bunkers just not to die on same or better production (3 barracks with addons). Also, the huge sight radius makes it impossible to snipe the MSC with early game units which could delay the push (like scanning and killing observer in WoL) and also gives protoss full vision of the edge of terran base so you never risk blinking into a heavily defended area.

So basically - proxy oracle should come later (now I think the fastest is around 5.10)
MSC vision reduced from 14 to 10 and time warp costs 100 energy or lasts shorter than 30 seconds or has a smaller radius.

On January 19 2014 07:42 Big J wrote:



But should HotS just recreate WoL gameplay? I really don't like this attitude of going back to or preserving gameplay elements just for the sake of them working or having worked.
I mean, if Terran struggles with early game Protoss, then the problem is earlygame Protoss.
If Terran struggles with lategame Protoss, then the problem is lategame Protoss.
But the problem should not be that Terran "is not dominant enough" in the midgame.

As you mentioned the infamous queenpatch, I really need to draw the picture what the situation was before (at least from a Zerg's perspective):
A one base noncommital techopening, that could do massive damage (or rarely outright kill the opponent) if he did not specifically tinker his opening BO around being able to defend it.
Sounds awefully like oracles PvT.
The bad solution would have been to go back to this state, the good (coming way too late with HotS) solution was to nerf Infestorplay and get Terran en par with Zerg in the phases in which Terran actually struggled (lategame).

Though I do kind of agree with your balance suggestions going into the right direction, apart from not mentioning a Tank buff.

On January 18 2014 21:54 ZenithM wrote:

If an oracle kills you, you weren't playing standard. By that I mean that it's extremely annoying that the existence of oracle alone made it so that the standard TvP strat is to curl up into a ball and bunker/turret up for like 9-10 minutes.
Some will say "LOL that's what PvT was about in WoL!". Yes, but Protoss could cling to the hope of having the massively more powerful and easier to control lategame unit compositions. Terran doesn't have that luxury.
I hate that we basically only have a window of 30s-1m to be only "mildly annoying" to Protoss. Before and after that, it's Lazors Happy Hour.

Edit: I still like playing the match-up, mind you, because I like to micro my bio units, but watching Terran lose to 1 oracle double expand into blink double forge colossus off of 1 gate makes me quite sad.

On January 19 2014 08:00 Survivor61316 wrote:

I think you completely missed the point of his post. He was saying that everything for Terran has stayed the same compared to WoL, but the way that Terran was able to win in WoL is now obsolete. Also, his proposed nerf is to early game Protoss, which as you said is the problem if Terran is struggling with early game Protoss. If you didn't understand how this directly relates to Terran not being dominant enough in the mid-game, and how that in turn directly relates to Terran struggling late-game vs Protoss, you completely missed the mark. Terran having to pull ahead in the mid-game to go even into the late-game is just how the MU works with the units that each race has. The only way to change this would be to massively overhaul one of the races (probably Toss) but we all know Blizzard would never do that (particularly in the middle of HotS).

Its not oracles or blink builds that are the problem on their own, its the fact that they can be done safely, delaying Terran's tech while Toss is able to speed their tech up. Its really the MSC that is the problem.

On January 19 2014 08:36 Big J wrote:



I actually agreed with his balance suggestions. My point however was that such balance suggestions shouldn't be done to make Terran more dominant in the midgame (I still like them, because I don't like deadly rushes). The bolded part in your post is exactly why I answered to his post to begin with. If Terran is OK in the midgame, there is no need to make them stronger in that phase for the sake of not having to face a strong Protoss lategame. Yet, if there is a strong Protoss lategame that Terran cannot properly take on currently, then that lategame should be tweaked.

And of course the MU works as it works because of the units. The status quo is also because of the units. Independent of which solution you prefer (giving Terran a more dominant midgame, or giving Terran an equally strong lategame), if you want a change you have to change the units. I just believe one solution is better than another, if it brings in more options to a (stale) metagame. Aka making lategame techtransitions or straight up techheavy play (Mech) viable, while the other one does not provide anything like that.
Like with everything regarding balance, there are always multiple approaches possible. And at least I prefer those solutions that balance things against each other, instead of balancing one hard-to-stop timing with another.

On January 19 2014 09:55 Survivor61316 wrote:

The problem with balancing late game units is that it is infinitely more difficult to succeed. When you get to the late game, every tech path for every race should either be open, or have the possibility to have been unlocked. Thus, if one race is still struggling against another even though their entire tech tree is (hypothetically) available, the problems most likely run deeper than superficial tweaks to unit strengths. The only "easy" solutions that would be viable to fix TvP for example, would be to either nerf storm damage/aoe or to rework the warp gate mechanic, both of which would have dire consequences in PvZ. And even then, nothing about TvP is really going to change. Its still going to be MMMVG vs Deathball, Terran will just have a better chance at winning engagements than they do now. Unless the actual units change, or new ones are introduced, unit tweaks are never going to change the compositions and playstyles (again, outside of very drastic changes that Blizz would never do). So the best we can really hope for is a return to WoL balance/playstyles/timings while we cross our fingers and pray things change in LotV (or that Starbow really takes off!).

Oh and I just saw the bolded sentence, and WoL was never about the mid-game being a hard to stop timing for Protoss where they were in extreme danger of losing outright (though of course it could happen). It was more about mitigating damage while your high tech comes online. As a Terran it was nice to kill off Toss then sure, but the real goal was only to delay their tech long enough for you to get either ghosts or vikings out to help deal with it, which evened things in the late-game out overall, and allowed both armies to trade efficiently with one another (i.e. the better player should win).

On January 19 2014 10:29 Big J wrote:


Yes, but that's basically what those situations always turn into. People also don't lose to oracles outright 90% of the time. The real goal for the Protoss is still just to ensure that the Terran goes for reaper into marines and ebay every game.

Why would it run deeper than unit strengths? By design the Siege Tank should be a strong counter to ground deathballs in direct combat. If it isn't and therefore isn't built in such scenarios, then the problem is very simply a problem of strength.
Or the BC. If you cannot mix them in when you have uncontested air superiority (10+ vikings) and the opponent relies heavily on units like Zealots and Colossi, then yes, it's a problem of strength.

On January 19 2014 12:06 Survivor61316 wrote:

Just take your siege tank example for a second: the reason they don't work is because they are hard countered by immortals and archons, and soft countered by chargelots. So what would you have to do to make them viable in the late game vs Toss? The first option is to increase their damage output so that these units don't trade so well against them. But then what does that do to all three MUs? Every one will play mech all the time and the situation would be the same (with Terran probably being imba vs Zerg. The other option is to decrease the health of these units (archons specifically) but then they would be too susceptible to ghosts and people would play bio anyways. That's why its not about simple unit strengths, because you can't look at the situation in a vacuum.

And fixing battle cruisers without making them too powerful would take a lot of redesign (there are many reasons why they don't work), and I don't see blizzard doing anything like that until at least LotV.

On January 19 2014 18:48 Big J wrote:



This has been discussed to death, there are a thousand more solutions around then just increasing the damage. E.g. increasing damage vs shields. In the most stupid case, blizzard could just make them so strong against 1-2units of the usual Protoss army (e.g. +50damage vs Colossus) that you'd still build them regardless of being countered by other units, just like you do with Vikings currently.
That's actually the whole crux of the problem. When Zerg or Protoss need a certain unit, they eventually build them. It's not like you don't build Colossi just because Vikings are on the field or could be on the field. But somehow, Terran does not build Tanks/Thors/BCs when *anything-Protoss* is on the field, because they lack the power against Protoss to fullfill their any roles.

On January 20 2014 03:00 Survivor61316 wrote:

Even if you just do a straight increase in damage to shields, you would not get the diversity you want. Sure the MU would probably become marine/tank instead of bio, but it would remain marine/tank and the situation would be the same. On that note, I'd rather it stay bio because if the MU is going to stale anyways, I'd at least rather it be a different comp than TvT. Increasing damage vs colossi wouldn't do much though, Toss would just open storm and add in immortals and archons and rofl stomp you. Personally, I think that the best change they could make to tanks to help the MU would be bonus vs massive, but Toss will still be favored in the late game when they can get tempests out (and immortals will still hard counter). So no matter what, I don't see diversity in play changing, and I still think Terran will need an advantage in the mid-game to be able to go even into the late-game.