EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 879
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
| ||
|
dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
On January 17 2014 20:46 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: Super vs. FanTaSy is the most abusive series I've ever watched. Then you certainly haven't watched much. | ||
|
Creager
Germany1893 Posts
On January 17 2014 17:06 Micro_Jackson wrote: Looking at the groups it could be very likely that there are only one or two terrans in codeS. I would trade GomTvT for that without even thinking, i think the potential of PvZ all day (especially if Swarmhost/BL turlte becomes standard) could really hurt GSL viewer wise. Exactly man, I bought a lite ticket for season 1 after almost 1 1/2 years and all I get to watch is PvZ (and I just hate matchups with P involved right now)... Cool waste of 20 bucks. | ||
|
MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
Lol, really? Game 1: Super decides to go for 3 gate blink. He ends up getting hard countered by FanTaSy, so he builds 3 sentries and expands behind it. He continues to pin FanTaSy back, forcing a stim or two and then retreating back home. He uses 1 photon overcharge so that FanTaSy can't just run into his natural and kill him. FanTaSy gets a third has a bigger army, and sets up a contain. Super tries to break out of the contain and uses some decent colossus micro. He ends up killing enough of FanTaSy's army that he decides screw it, I'm gonna go amove his natural (which he does). Awful focus fire, awful stalker micro, awful forcefields. He had two good forcefields at the very beginning of the fight and then proceeded to do nothing else right. Game 2 was just so hilarious that it's not even worth explaining everything. Do you really think that their game made Oracles look balanced? | ||
|
bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On January 17 2014 20:56 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: Lol, really? Game 1: Super decides to go for 3 gate blink. He ends up getting hard countered by FanTaSy, so he builds 3 sentries and expands behind it. He continues to pin FanTaSy back, forcing a stim or two and then retreating back home. He uses 1 photon overcharge so that FanTaSy can't just run into his natural and kill him. FanTaSy gets a third has a bigger army, and sets up a contain. Super tries to break out of the contain and uses some decent colossus micro. He ends up killing enough of FanTaSy's army that he decides screw it, I'm gonna go amove his natural (which he does). Awful focus fire, awful stalker micro, awful forcefields. He had two good forcefields at the very beginning of the fight and then proceeded to do nothing else right. Game 2 was just so hilarious that it's not even worth explaining everything. Do you really think that their game made Oracles look balanced? I had similar thoughts regarding fantasy vs life, what goes around comes around I suppose. | ||
|
NxSs
Belgium39 Posts
| ||
|
Pharaph0bia
Czech Republic2 Posts
On January 17 2014 21:26 NxSs wrote: I'm protoss but I agree about oracle ,they should just remove that horrible unit -.- Sadly we all know that Blizzard will ignore everything  | ||
|
Ana_
Finland453 Posts
IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. | ||
|
NxSs
Belgium39 Posts
Or increasy energycost? | ||
|
Diogenes
United States132 Posts
It probably exists for 2 reasons: 1) PvP was probably the worse mirror match and is STILL the worse matchup in the game by far. MC versus Seed GSL finals was proof of how bad it was in WOL. Basically the person who expanded first lost because there was no such thing as defender's advantage with warpgate. So they added photon overcharge for defender's advantage but then they ALSO added time warp so that PvP's had some more micro to it rather than who has more units. But does time warp really add anything? When both sides have it, you get time warp to counter the other guy's time warp. Every pvp battle is basically the other guy time warping onto the other guy's units. It's so hilarious how consistent this is and how little it adds to the game. It makes unit counts even more important early game since its harder for either side to retreat so that the guy with more units wins. 2) ZvP has always been a problematic matchup with Protoss having to hide behind a wall and only push out with either an all-in timing or a maxed-out deathball. They added recall so that the protoss could move out and still be able to retreat against faster zerg units on creep. But then they also gave the protoss time warp too which helps mitigate creep's effect which seems absurd when force fields already achieve much of the same effect. It gives protoss a straight up buff to their gateway units but is again, like forecfields, either overpowered or underpowered depending on the amount of chokes on a map. OVerall, it seems unecessary with forcefields. Ironically, I think Protoss needs this type of ability but for air units only so that they can stop muta-switches more easily. 3) For the TvP matchup, it makes terran bio units worthless until they have both stim and medavacs. The time warp ability is still too much for stim to counter completely and stim is actually bad for timewarp since it doesn't negate time warp while also weakening your units. It makes TvP all-ins almost impossible to stop on ridge maps where 2 bunkers can't give you enough defensive coverage. Yeonsu is a prime example of this. Rain forgot warp gate tech and hit a minute late with his blink stalkers and still beat Dream in Proleague (granted Dream was a little nervous and made a few mistakes). You can just chain 3 time warps in a row on Yeonsu against a terran and what can they do? There is too much surface area to cover with bunkers and your units have to be mobile but time warp is so effective on that map and the natural ramp gives the attacker a natural concave versus the defender. And don't bring up ty's game on that map in proleague; the only recent pro game where a terran was able to beat blink stalkers on that map. ty got a 14cc against a bad 13gate zealot/stalker/msc pressure. He had the best economic opening possible that went unpunished while Hero only did a weird blink stalker fake pressure with immediate dt followup. The sensor tower was just icing on the already baked cake. TLDR: Time warp is an unnecessary, overpowered ability that lowers the interactivity of battles and is asymmetrically powerful, limiting map design and destroying certain matchups while not fixing other. MSC has a whole host of problems. Completely getting rid of time warp would be a good first step in my opinion. There is no reason it should exist. | ||
|
SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
- Overcharge becomes a Channeled Spell - MSC dies: overcharge stops - When Recall in progress, all units being damaged are A) not recalled or B) receive damage to health (recall disables shields) - Time warp AoE + duration down - MSC vision to 9 All small changes with minor effects outside of early mid game and nearly no effect on PvP | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 17 2014 21:42 Ana_ wrote: Oracle to three shot workers instead of two shot. Big Mama reduce timewarp duration and/or size. IMO, these would improve both, PvT and PvP. Would want to test these out. Maybe slight nerf to overcharge dmg, but too vast change to overcharge might brake PvP. Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. | ||
|
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 18 2014 00:29 SC2Toastie wrote: I propose some changes to MSC - Overcharge becomes a Channeled Spell - MSC dies: overcharge stops - When Recall in progress, all units being damaged are A) not recalled or B) receive damage to health (recall disables shields) - Time warp AoE + duration down - MSC vision to 9 All small changes with minor effects outside of early mid game and nearly no effect on PvP Being able to kill the MSC to stop overcharge has a huge effect on PvP: aggressive builds will always work vs. fast expands because you have a unit lead, and you can walk in, tanking the shots from the cannon for a couple of seconds and just kill the MSC to end it. Blink all-ins and phoenix all-ins in particular will be devastating. The purpose of the cannon in PvP is to buy time to get your own tech or units out to counter an all-in so that you can actually expand at all. If you give the opponent a method by which to kill it, you're pretty much guaranteeing that you can never expand again. | ||
|
fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
On January 18 2014 00:34 Whitewing wrote: Being able to kill the MSC to stop overcharge has a huge effect on PvP: aggressive builds will always work vs. fast expands because you have a unit lead, and you can walk in, tanking the shots from the cannon for a couple of seconds and just kill the MSC to end it. Blink all-ins and phoenix all-ins in particular will be devastating. The purpose of the cannon in PvP is to buy time to get your own tech or units out to counter an all-in so that you can actually expand at all. If you give the opponent a method by which to kill it, you're pretty much guaranteeing that you can never expand again. True, which is why warpgate tech needed to be re-examined since season one of WoL. The game is balanced around a fundamentally challenging mechanic that protoss has, causing all sorts of problems like PvP coin flips | ||
|
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 18 2014 04:03 fighter2_40 wrote: True, which is why warpgate tech needed to be re-examined since season one of WoL. The game is balanced around a fundamentally challenging mechanic that protoss has, causing all sorts of problems like PvP coin flips I agree, but warpgate isn't the only problem. Even if you took away warpgate you'd still have coin-flips in the matchup like blink all-ins, or phoenix all-ins. Warp gate makes the first round of reinforcements faster, but each follow up round takes the same amount of time to arrive relative to the previous round of reinforcements as if they'd had to walk across the map. You'd still have the problem of tech hard counters in the matchup, and the fact that tech buildings are placed during a no scouting period for both players. Protoss doesn't have access to good early scouting units like the reaper or an overlord, the best we have is an early sentry, wait a minute or two for energy, then hallucinate a phoenix. That comes too late to prevent a tech disadvantage if you guess wrong, and can kill you to do if you're getting 3 gated. Warp gate doesn't have all that much to do with the fact that if I open phoenix and he tries to robo expand, he's pretty much dead. Photon overcharge is one of the few things that helps him live long enough to attempt to play catchup and compensate for his tech weakness, and makes it into a relatively even game. In WoL, if you open phoenix and your opponent opened robo, you won 100% of the time if you didn't make a hilariously awful mistake. It was essentially a free-win. In HotS it's a build order advantage but not an auto-win because of photon overcharge, which makes a 4 gate phoenix all-in a weaker move vs. an early robo expand and can help limit phoenix harass. | ||
Jerom
Netherlands588 Posts
| ||
|
imrusty269
United States1404 Posts
On January 18 2014 00:32 Whitewing wrote: Oracle 3 shotting workers is effectively cuttings its dps by one third: that's a catastrophic nerf, and they're not nearly as bad as hellbats or blue flame hellions were before those got nerfed. I hate to break it to you, but the current overcharge already is on the razor's edge of failing to be good enough in PvP: expand builds still die A LOT to all-ins. Protoss needs a race overhaul. Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. | ||
|
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 18 2014 05:02 imrusty269 wrote: Hellbats were much better. To harass effectively often require multiple drops and good multitasking. Innovation was much better than anyone else at hellbat drop. Oracle is a no skill unit. Hellbat drops were not hard to execute at all. You didn't even really have to micro them: just queue up a couple drops in mineral lines while poking the front with your army: if you got like 4 kills your drop pretty much paid for itself, and hellbats always got more than 4 kills before the nerf. | ||
|
Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On January 18 2014 05:21 Whitewing wrote: Hellbat drops were not hard to execute at all. You didn't even really have to micro them: just queue up a couple drops in mineral lines while poking the front with your army: if you got like 4 kills your drop pretty much paid for itself, and hellbats always got more than 4 kills before the nerf. 4 kills yeah wow. And almost always dead hellbat and possibly medivac. Oracles? Well they dont die and 12+ kills is nothing special for ONE oracle. 6-8 kills vs turret is nothing odd either. Oh and you can scout all you want for the rest of the game, also see invisible units with it and track the enemys army with that other spell. Pretty good. Pretty pretty good. | ||
|
Fission
Canada1184 Posts
| ||
| ||
