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On January 08 2014 20:16 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 20:05 -Celestial- wrote:Between Toastie and this Survivor guy this thread is highly amusing. You know what? Believe what you want. I laid out factual things that need doing to optimally control a Protoss army that have a major effect on engagements. Don't want to believe it because you want to cry some more? Fine, don't. I really don't care what you think, I'm giving you information and flat out pointing out where you are wrong. I'm not really interested in listening to you yell about how unfair it all is so you can ignore your own failings and blame them on imbalance; try someone else. Designated whine thread indeed. Its like Battle.net forums in here. My favourite one: edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all... Its like you haven't even noticed the constant threads cherry picking evidence to "prove" how weak Terran is. X-D That's an easy way out, just ad hominem the other guy and be the tough dude hangin' around. gj!
Actually you already took the easy way out by sticking your fingers in your ears, shaking your head and going "nuh-uh". And I don't think you know what ad-hominem actually means. Either way I'm merely saying I'm not going to play those kinds of silly games. You listen to facts or you don't, doesn't change what those facts are.
On January 09 2014 12:37 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 20:05 -Celestial- wrote:Between Toastie and this Survivor guy this thread is highly amusing. You know what? Believe what you want. I laid out factual things that need doing to optimally control a Protoss army that have a major effect on engagements. Don't want to believe it because you want to cry some more? Fine, don't. I really don't care what you think, I'm giving you information and flat out pointing out where you are wrong. I'm not really interested in listening to you yell about how unfair it all is so you can ignore your own failings and blame them on imbalance; try someone else. Designated whine thread indeed. Its like Battle.net forums in here. My favourite one: edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all... Its like you haven't even noticed the constant threads cherry picking evidence to "prove" how weak Terran is. X-D Lol, youre funny. Cry harder man
I think you've confused me with a Terran yelling about ladder representation.
Far as I'm concerned where was I "crying" and what is there to cry about? Last winrates I saw looked fairly reasonable, game is balanced quite nicely, maybe needs the odd tweak but its more or less stable. Match-ups are, as a whole, better than they used to be. Personally I'm very happy with the balance situation. I DO feel that Terran could use a redesign in nerfing the Marine and buffing almost every other unit in its arsenal to make a more balanced race that isn't almost entirely reliant on one unit but that's a side issue.
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On January 09 2014 22:00 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 20:16 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 08 2014 20:05 -Celestial- wrote:Between Toastie and this Survivor guy this thread is highly amusing. You know what? Believe what you want. I laid out factual things that need doing to optimally control a Protoss army that have a major effect on engagements. Don't want to believe it because you want to cry some more? Fine, don't. I really don't care what you think, I'm giving you information and flat out pointing out where you are wrong. I'm not really interested in listening to you yell about how unfair it all is so you can ignore your own failings and blame them on imbalance; try someone else. Designated whine thread indeed. Its like Battle.net forums in here. My favourite one: edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all... Its like you haven't even noticed the constant threads cherry picking evidence to "prove" how weak Terran is. X-D That's an easy way out, just ad hominem the other guy and be the tough dude hangin' around. gj! Actually you already took the easy way out by sticking your fingers in your ears, shaking your head and going "nuh-uh". And I don't think you know what ad-hominem actually means. Either way I'm merely saying I'm not going to play those kinds of silly games. You listen to facts or you don't, doesn't change what those facts are. Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 12:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 08 2014 20:05 -Celestial- wrote:Between Toastie and this Survivor guy this thread is highly amusing. You know what? Believe what you want. I laid out factual things that need doing to optimally control a Protoss army that have a major effect on engagements. Don't want to believe it because you want to cry some more? Fine, don't. I really don't care what you think, I'm giving you information and flat out pointing out where you are wrong. I'm not really interested in listening to you yell about how unfair it all is so you can ignore your own failings and blame them on imbalance; try someone else. Designated whine thread indeed. Its like Battle.net forums in here. My favourite one: edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all... Its like you haven't even noticed the constant threads cherry picking evidence to "prove" how weak Terran is. X-D Lol, youre funny. Cry harder man I think you've confused me with a Terran yelling about ladder representation. Far as I'm concerned where was I "crying" and what is there to cry about? Last winrates I saw looked fairly reasonable, game is balanced quite nicely, maybe needs the odd tweak but its more or less stable. Match-ups are, as a whole, better than they used to be. Personally I'm very happy with the balance situation. I DO feel that Terran could use a redesign in nerfing the Marine and buffing almost every other unit in its arsenal to make a more balanced race that isn't almost entirely reliant on one unit but that's a side issue.
Why are protoss overrepresented in the higher leagues? Why does GM have 45% protoss and 20% terran? Terrans have no reason to cry about this situation? There is no relation between this ladder representation and the quality of life for terrans on the ladder?
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On January 09 2014 22:09 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 22:00 -Celestial- wrote:On January 08 2014 20:16 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 08 2014 20:05 -Celestial- wrote:Between Toastie and this Survivor guy this thread is highly amusing. You know what? Believe what you want. I laid out factual things that need doing to optimally control a Protoss army that have a major effect on engagements. Don't want to believe it because you want to cry some more? Fine, don't. I really don't care what you think, I'm giving you information and flat out pointing out where you are wrong. I'm not really interested in listening to you yell about how unfair it all is so you can ignore your own failings and blame them on imbalance; try someone else. Designated whine thread indeed. Its like Battle.net forums in here. My favourite one: edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all... Its like you haven't even noticed the constant threads cherry picking evidence to "prove" how weak Terran is. X-D That's an easy way out, just ad hominem the other guy and be the tough dude hangin' around. gj! Actually you already took the easy way out by sticking your fingers in your ears, shaking your head and going "nuh-uh". And I don't think you know what ad-hominem actually means. Either way I'm merely saying I'm not going to play those kinds of silly games. You listen to facts or you don't, doesn't change what those facts are. On January 09 2014 12:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 08 2014 20:05 -Celestial- wrote:Between Toastie and this Survivor guy this thread is highly amusing. You know what? Believe what you want. I laid out factual things that need doing to optimally control a Protoss army that have a major effect on engagements. Don't want to believe it because you want to cry some more? Fine, don't. I really don't care what you think, I'm giving you information and flat out pointing out where you are wrong. I'm not really interested in listening to you yell about how unfair it all is so you can ignore your own failings and blame them on imbalance; try someone else. Designated whine thread indeed. Its like Battle.net forums in here. My favourite one: edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all... Its like you haven't even noticed the constant threads cherry picking evidence to "prove" how weak Terran is. X-D Lol, youre funny. Cry harder man I think you've confused me with a Terran yelling about ladder representation. Far as I'm concerned where was I "crying" and what is there to cry about? Last winrates I saw looked fairly reasonable, game is balanced quite nicely, maybe needs the odd tweak but its more or less stable. Match-ups are, as a whole, better than they used to be. Personally I'm very happy with the balance situation. I DO feel that Terran could use a redesign in nerfing the Marine and buffing almost every other unit in its arsenal to make a more balanced race that isn't almost entirely reliant on one unit but that's a side issue. Why are protoss overrepresented in the higher leagues? Why does GM have 45% protoss and 20% terran? Terrans have no reason to cry about this situation? There is no relation between this ladder representation and the quality of life for terrans on the ladder? Because unicorns don't exist? Who knows? Could be any number of factors.
In all of the previous cases of overpowered races, their representation was up, their winrates were significantly up, AND they were winning the bulk of tournaments. This hasn't been the case for Protoss. In fact, only 1/3 of those conditions have been met.
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Actually, GomTvT was generally not won by terrans. It was only after T became weaker that Mvp started his reign. So I don't know if tournament wins are that important. Anyway, P did win all top tournaments at the end of 2013.
The winrates are in favour of P at the moment in PvT (even with the ridiculous streak in proleague). (this is where we should discuss the lack of sizeable data sets, trends and more, but I'd like to point out that you cannot just claim that it's not in P favour atm).
And their representation is massive everywhere.
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On January 09 2014 22:09 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 22:00 -Celestial- wrote:On January 08 2014 20:16 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 08 2014 20:05 -Celestial- wrote:Between Toastie and this Survivor guy this thread is highly amusing. You know what? Believe what you want. I laid out factual things that need doing to optimally control a Protoss army that have a major effect on engagements. Don't want to believe it because you want to cry some more? Fine, don't. I really don't care what you think, I'm giving you information and flat out pointing out where you are wrong. I'm not really interested in listening to you yell about how unfair it all is so you can ignore your own failings and blame them on imbalance; try someone else. Designated whine thread indeed. Its like Battle.net forums in here. My favourite one: edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all... Its like you haven't even noticed the constant threads cherry picking evidence to "prove" how weak Terran is. X-D That's an easy way out, just ad hominem the other guy and be the tough dude hangin' around. gj! Actually you already took the easy way out by sticking your fingers in your ears, shaking your head and going "nuh-uh". And I don't think you know what ad-hominem actually means. Either way I'm merely saying I'm not going to play those kinds of silly games. You listen to facts or you don't, doesn't change what those facts are. On January 09 2014 12:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 08 2014 20:05 -Celestial- wrote:Between Toastie and this Survivor guy this thread is highly amusing. You know what? Believe what you want. I laid out factual things that need doing to optimally control a Protoss army that have a major effect on engagements. Don't want to believe it because you want to cry some more? Fine, don't. I really don't care what you think, I'm giving you information and flat out pointing out where you are wrong. I'm not really interested in listening to you yell about how unfair it all is so you can ignore your own failings and blame them on imbalance; try someone else. Designated whine thread indeed. Its like Battle.net forums in here. My favourite one: edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all... Its like you haven't even noticed the constant threads cherry picking evidence to "prove" how weak Terran is. X-D Lol, youre funny. Cry harder man I think you've confused me with a Terran yelling about ladder representation. Far as I'm concerned where was I "crying" and what is there to cry about? Last winrates I saw looked fairly reasonable, game is balanced quite nicely, maybe needs the odd tweak but its more or less stable. Match-ups are, as a whole, better than they used to be. Personally I'm very happy with the balance situation. I DO feel that Terran could use a redesign in nerfing the Marine and buffing almost every other unit in its arsenal to make a more balanced race that isn't almost entirely reliant on one unit but that's a side issue. Why are protoss overrepresented in the higher leagues? Why does GM have 45% protoss and 20% terran? Terrans have no reason to cry about this situation? There is no relation between this ladder representation and the quality of life for terrans on the ladder?
The argument isn't that there is/isn't a problem. All we're saying is that it's dumb to think that toss micro is simple "a-move T T T" and terran has to do all these godly things to pull even. Both armies have to be controlled extremely well with tons of multi-tasking to be effective, and generally terran (when speaking of bio compositions) has much more room to run away from poor engagements. Due to the nature of toss compositions, without recall toss can be one of the most fragile armies in the game, so the concept of "A-move terrun micru so hurd qq" makes me laugh. Once both armies are controlled impeccably, whether or not toss is overpowered is an entire different argument that I'd actually be willing to talk about and not just point fingers and call ppl silly when I see it.
If you're losing to a-move protoss you have some serious holes in your play you need to plug.
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On January 09 2014 23:25 Ghanburighan wrote:
Actually, GomTvT was generally not won by terrans. It was only after T became weaker that Mvp started his reign. So I don't know if tournament wins are that important. Anyway, P did win all top tournaments at the end of 2013.
From January 2011 to April (so until patch 1.4.3.2) 2012 Terrans won 28/53 (~53%) Premier Tournaments and 8/12 (~67%) GSLs.
As a comparison: From May 2012 to January 2013 (so starting with patch 1.4.3.2 until the end of Wings) Zergs won 14/31 (~45%) Premier Tournaments and 4/5 (80%) GSLs.
Another comparison: From October 2013 to now, Protoss won 5/10 (50%) Premier Tournaments and 3/3 WCS (100%) and GSLs.
I really don't think you can say that Terrans didn't win tournaments "in general" during the GomTvT era (basically no matter which periode of 2011-early 2012 you assume for that, Terran won >50% of the tournaments), while stating that Protoss won "all top tournaments" at the end of 2013 (which is also a much,much,much more volatile samplesize).
Also Mvp's strongest phase (in terms of success, but imo also in terms of how hard he dominated) was between January-October 2011 with 3 GSL titles and 1 second place. His 3 finals (2wins) in 2012-2013 are much more the aftermath of his dominance.
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I'd say October 2013 to Now is a terrible sample.
November is notorious for being weird because there is SO MANY tournaments and not a lot of develloping. Followed by no tournament december.
Sure, Protoss did better than the rest. Guess what. One terran win over Protoss in a major tournament and suddendly the percentages are as even as can be.
TvP currently feels off to me personaly. That's it. There is no way to prove it with recent statistics because they are terrible.
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On January 09 2014 03:41 dani` wrote:Aligulac stats say PvT was 51.6% in December. Just throwing some facts in here, I get the impression from our angry forum Terrans the PvT matchup is around 80% in favor of Protoss but it appears quite close to even. Just an effort to restore the peace on the forums a bit, blind Protoss hate everywhere nowadays >_< http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/
That's because us (mortals, ie not pro) are frustrated to lose to so many protoss all-ins or to double AoE in the lategame.
People playing terran have difficulties not to die to protoss all-ins, yet if they succeed to stay alive, it's even more difficult not to die to colo/HT comp in the lategame, hence a lot of frustration from a lot of terran players who have the feeling there is nothing they can do against protoss.
Yet at pro level, where they scout (almost) perfectly and can defend all-ins AND has the micro/mutlitask needed to face a double AoE army, there seems to be no real problem.
That's why we see an outcry from the sc2 community (ie the players, not the pro/semi-pro) to nerf protoss. They are frustrated. And it's understandable
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On January 10 2014 00:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 23:25 Ghanburighan wrote:
Actually, GomTvT was generally not won by terrans. It was only after T became weaker that Mvp started his reign. So I don't know if tournament wins are that important. Anyway, P did win all top tournaments at the end of 2013. From January 2011 to April (so until patch 1.4.3.2) 2012 Terrans won 28/53 (~53%) Premier Tournaments and 8/12 (~67%) GSLs. As a comparison: From May 2012 to January 2013 (so starting with patch 1.4.3.2 until the end of Wings) Zergs won 14/31 (~45%) Premier Tournaments and 4/5 (80%) GSLs. Another comparison: From October 2013 to now, Protoss won 5/10 (50%) Premier Tournaments and 3/3 WCS (100%) and GSLs. I really don't think you can say that Terrans didn't win tournaments "in general" during the GomTvT era (basically no matter which period of 2011-early 2012 you assume for that, Terran won >50% of the tournaments), while stating that Protoss won "all top tournaments" at the end of 2013 (which is also a much,much,much more volatile samplesize). Also Mvp's strongest phase (in terms of success, but imo also in terms of how hard he dominated) was between January-October 2011 with 3 GSL titles and 1 second place. His 3 finals (2wins) in 2012-2013 are much more the aftermath of his dominance.
I actually counted from 2010, and excluded premiers (some of them are super weird, and not terribly representative). I basically just thought about GSLs. In this case you get instances of Fruitdealer and Nestea winning while terran was clearly OP. Hence, I don't like this as a metric.
But I did want to point out the 100%: WCS Korea, global and Blizzcon as a possible metric. Those tournaments were much bigger and scarier than Taeja's multitude of 10k premiers. On the other hand, if you wanted to do this count seriously, you'd need to look at each of those, and potentially include some or all. But I don't think there's much clarity that you will get from that.
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Posting Templates:
Complaint
Problem: Imbalanced and poorly designed map pool
Solution: Blizzard has obviously poor judgement on what maps to place in the pool. They've proven this time and time again for almost all of Wings of Liberty, and now they're repeating mistakes in HotS. Maps like Daedalus and Alterzim are going to have massively harmful effects on WCS, both viewership and gameplay. The solution is to remove map pool decisions from Blizzard. Obviously this is a conclusion that they have to come to themselves, but I believe it is something that the community could accomplish much better than they do.
Side Effects: Map making scene increases, map pools get better, and we don't have to play on maps like Alterzim anymore.
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On January 09 2014 23:25 Ghanburighan wrote:
Actually, GomTvT was generally not won by terrans. It was only after T became weaker that Mvp started his reign. So I don't know if tournament wins are that important. Anyway, P did win all top tournaments at the end of 2013.
The winrates are in favour of P at the moment in PvT (even with the ridiculous streak in proleague). (this is where we should discuss the lack of sizeable data sets, trends and more, but I'd like to point out that you cannot just claim that it's not in P favour atm).
And their representation is massive everywhere.
Except Dreamhack Winter... And ASUS ROG...
Also, bo1 blind unprepared games done in mass numbers significantly favors Protoss. A 51.6 win rate isn't imbalanced at the pro level
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On January 10 2014 00:40 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 23:25 Ghanburighan wrote:
Actually, GomTvT was generally not won by terrans. It was only after T became weaker that Mvp started his reign. So I don't know if tournament wins are that important. Anyway, P did win all top tournaments at the end of 2013.
The winrates are in favour of P at the moment in PvT (even with the ridiculous streak in proleague). (this is where we should discuss the lack of sizeable data sets, trends and more, but I'd like to point out that you cannot just claim that it's not in P favour atm).
And their representation is massive everywhere. Except Dreamhack Winter... And ASUS ROG...
As I said, this is all november, which you can say nothing about.
Tadam, random Protoss falling to Scarlett and JD. DHW, again, The very best of the best Terrans and really good Zergs vs subtop Protoss.
November is a terrible month to draw conclusions from.
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On January 10 2014 00:25 VieuxSinge wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 03:41 dani` wrote:Aligulac stats say PvT was 51.6% in December. Just throwing some facts in here, I get the impression from our angry forum Terrans the PvT matchup is around 80% in favor of Protoss but it appears quite close to even. Just an effort to restore the peace on the forums a bit, blind Protoss hate everywhere nowadays >_< http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ That's because us (mortals, ie not pro) are frustrated to lose to so many protoss all-ins or to double AoE in the lategame. People playing terran have difficulties not to die to protoss all-ins, yet if they succeed to stay alive, it's even more difficult not to die to colo/HT comp in the lategame, hence a lot of frustration from a lot of terran players who have the feeling there is nothing they can do against protoss. Yet at pro level, where they scout (almost) perfectly and can defend all-ins AND has the micro/mutlitask needed to face a double AoE army, there seems to be no real problem. That's why we see an outcry from the sc2 community (ie the players, not the pro/semi-pro) to nerf protoss. They are frustrated. And it's understandable
If you think there's no problem at the pro level, no nerfs/buffs will come, naturally....
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On January 10 2014 00:40 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 23:25 Ghanburighan wrote:
Actually, GomTvT was generally not won by terrans. It was only after T became weaker that Mvp started his reign. So I don't know if tournament wins are that important. Anyway, P did win all top tournaments at the end of 2013.
The winrates are in favour of P at the moment in PvT (even with the ridiculous streak in proleague). (this is where we should discuss the lack of sizeable data sets, trends and more, but I'd like to point out that you cannot just claim that it's not in P favour atm).
And their representation is massive everywhere. Except Dreamhack Winter... And ASUS ROG... Also, bo1 blind unprepared games done in mass numbers significantly favors Protoss. A 51.6 win rate isn't imbalanced at the pro level
However this edited argument I don't agree with.
SC2 should be balanced at pro level, offcourse, but to state that 'bo1 blind unprepared games done in mass numbers significantly favors protoss' is not fine.
That is a problem which should be taken care of. You don't need to balance for ladder, but giving a race so many 'coinflip' options is something that needs fixing. You cannot explain to all Terrans on ladder that they just have to play 2 league's lower than an equally skilled coinfliptoss because they picked the wrong race but the game should be balanced at pro level. That's pretty damn unfair.
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I don't know why protoss players still insist that the winrates are fine and no nerfs are coming when its confirmed they are coming?
Besides, the biggest problem with TvP is the random elements of the early game combined with the narrow 1-2 minute window where terran needs to deal damage. These are huge design problems that may not even reflect to winrates but still need to be fixed. Protoss players should be able to relate since they managed to get roughly 50% winrates against BL/infestor by doing immortal all ins every game.
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On January 10 2014 01:20 Bagi wrote:
I don't know why protoss players still insist that the winrates are fine and no nerfs are coming when its confirmed they are coming?
He was the one that said pro level no problems, not me lol
I've been an advocate of changes to PvT for a while now, it's just funny when people come in here and complain about the dumbest things that have nothing to do with PvT imbalance and they pass it off as so and justify it by jumping on the bandwagon lol
It's not nearly as bad as the drama queens make it seem, but it needs fixing.
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On January 10 2014 01:20 Bagi wrote:
I don't know why protoss players still insist that the winrates are fine and no nerfs are coming when its confirmed they are coming?
Besides, the biggest problem with TvP is the random elements of the early game combined with the narrow 1-2 minute window where terran needs to deal damage. These are huge design problems that may not even reflect to winrates but still need to be fixed. Protoss players should be able to relate since they managed to get roughly 50% winrates against BL/infestor by doing immortal all ins every game.
Because the amount of whining that's taking place is inordinate compared to any perceived imbalances. In all honesty, the only change that needs to be made is the duration of Photon Overcharge shortened. The biggest problem is that Protoss can warp in multiple rounds of units while Photon Overcharge protects against any early aggression, thus completely thwarting the Terran's attack window and probably putting them behind economically because of any sunk costs/time that was put into the attack.
That's it. There's no necessary Blink nerf, no reason to make Archons built from Robo or any other retarded BS that's been suggested. The only problem right now is that Protoss can defend early aggression without sinking any cost or time into it.
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On January 10 2014 00:45 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 00:25 VieuxSinge wrote:On January 09 2014 03:41 dani` wrote:Aligulac stats say PvT was 51.6% in December. Just throwing some facts in here, I get the impression from our angry forum Terrans the PvT matchup is around 80% in favor of Protoss but it appears quite close to even. Just an effort to restore the peace on the forums a bit, blind Protoss hate everywhere nowadays >_< http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ That's because us (mortals, ie not pro) are frustrated to lose to so many protoss all-ins or to double AoE in the lategame. People playing terran have difficulties not to die to protoss all-ins, yet if they succeed to stay alive, it's even more difficult not to die to colo/HT comp in the lategame, hence a lot of frustration from a lot of terran players who have the feeling there is nothing they can do against protoss. Yet at pro level, where they scout (almost) perfectly and can defend all-ins AND has the micro/mutlitask needed to face a double AoE army, there seems to be no real problem. That's why we see an outcry from the sc2 community (ie the players, not the pro/semi-pro) to nerf protoss. They are frustrated. And it's understandable If you think there's no problem at the pro level, no nerfs/buffs will come, naturally....
Well I wasn't talking about nerfs:buffs, I was just explaining why there is so much whine on TvP nowadays.
On the other hand, I really think there can be "quality of life" buffs/nerfs to help lower leagues terran without changing much at high level.
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On January 10 2014 00:25 VieuxSinge wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 03:41 dani` wrote:Aligulac stats say PvT was 51.6% in December. Just throwing some facts in here, I get the impression from our angry forum Terrans the PvT matchup is around 80% in favor of Protoss but it appears quite close to even. Just an effort to restore the peace on the forums a bit, blind Protoss hate everywhere nowadays >_< http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/ That's because us (mortals, ie not pro) are frustrated to lose to so many protoss all-ins or to double AoE in the lategame. People playing terran have difficulties not to die to protoss all-ins, yet if they succeed to stay alive, it's even more difficult not to die to colo/HT comp in the lategame, hence a lot of frustration from a lot of terran players who have the feeling there is nothing they can do against protoss. Yet at pro level, where they scout (almost) perfectly and can defend all-ins AND has the micro/mutlitask needed to face a double AoE army, there seems to be no real problem. That's why we see an outcry from the sc2 community (ie the players, not the pro/semi-pro) to nerf protoss. They are frustrated. And it's understandable
I think you are underestimating the cry from Korean pros. Soulkey said he couldn't find Terran opponents on Korean GM ladder. And Dear said he didn't like to win as Protoss because people are saying he only won because of his race.
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Northern Ireland25050 Posts
On January 01 2014 20:43 YyapSsap wrote:
Maps are quite an interesting idea.. but I think they aren't being used enough to really affect "balance".
E.g.
TvP, the main cannot be blinked onto other than from the frontal ramp/natural.
PvZ, it doesn't have exposed non movable areas around its main e.g. Polar night so that mutalisks can't attack at literally all angles.
TvZ, no sensor towers meaning you can't just have 2 lings spawned to take map control for a very long time or futher away thirds.
I think Day9 is a big proponent of using maps to balance while leaving the unit stats alone.
Yeah some more tweaking is needed, or at least variety.
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EPT
