|
United States1072 Posts
Midleading stats, 11-24 includes a good number of losses vs zergs. There are 7 tvp wins, 4 from Maru, 2 from TY, two best micro & multitasking terrans in the planet against inferior opponents (not Rain or Parting). It shows that P is still imba because no other terran can win vP. Winrate alone is not a good way to look t balance.
You are absolutely right and I have been thinking about the question this raised.... How do you look at balance?
Some say its the equal opportunity to win when 2 players of the same SKill level face off...... This is hard to judge seeing how the races in of themselves are completely different and require not only different mind sets but also the mechanics to play each race vastly differs....Also the Mechanics of some races are more rewarding for some than others..... So what is the Metric that we use to Measure this "balance"......
IMO and MO ONLY balance should be using the Metric of Time / equal opportunity. This is not to be confused with the thought of either race can win 50% of the time with an aggressive attack from point 0 to Fin.....
Point # 1 - This is the thought that Race A has 50% chance to win against Race B when both Races are played @ 100% efficiency in macro and Micro. This is assuming that both races go down the same path that we as a community refer to as "Macro Play" that is optimized to 100% efficiency. This type of play turns into a symphony of trades. Where the player that trades the best wins.......
Point #2 - When taking a Partially aggressive route that Not only does Race A have a 50% chance of succeeding in getting ahead but also that Race B has a 50% chance of defending and not falling behind when Race B is properly building in defense of that build and both are macroing and Microing at 100% efficiency (this does not take into account the chance of scouting which actually is a HUGE variable which also plays into this balance metric)......
Point #3 - This Point is all about the "All-In" or a heavily aggressive build that is meant to either decimate your opponent so that he is crippled or just outright win the game with the attack. This type of game metric is extremely hard to calculate balance and while it should be a 50% chance to attack and 50% chance to defend these builds were made in order to capitalize on a races weakness to defend so that where it should be 50% it is at a lower rate and is exactly why these builds exist......
Point #4 - This point is what dictates the chance to win throughout the entire game which is Time. Time when considered into balance is the most important aspect there of and should be considered when looking at 2 different races with 2 different mechanics to determine not only the current balance but also any balance issues / changes to be made. If Race A has the same amount of time to be aggressive on the field as Race B then at the very basic level of thought on the game its balanced. There is so many things that dictate the change of "time" to the fact that each move performed by one player and how its reacted by the other player can be thought of almost like adding time to the player that did damage that got ahead and subtracting time from the player that took damage. Also when Race A fails at an all in or aggressive attack he has lost time , time that could have been spent on teching or Macroing which is a metric that is based off of how much damage he was able to do against his opponent.....
Now I understand there is way more to the thought of balance when looking at it such as Wildcard which is when one style is pitted against another such as an All in vses a Macro build that is meant to pretty much counter the other build with high efficiency. Also how many builds each race has that counters the other players builds is a factor.... Those types of interactions between races have to do with scouting chances and how active one player is which again plays into the efficiency of each race and how each one can scout with the tools given and how costly each tool is.
When thinking of the current state of TvP there are many units and builds that allow these equal opportunity / Time metrics to fall in Protoss' favor. Also things that should be true when looking at balance metrics that are negated by certain units that protoss has....
|
I don't think toss army are more sensitive to bad positionning than other. Zerg army if bad positionned can be wipe whitout doing any dommage even with a higher army value. Also zerg have a lot of different compo with strengh and weakness but most of them can be wipe a some point.
Muta ling can be deadly, engage disagage constantly but if muta pass next to a few marrine :a few seconds they can get killed so fast while they are way more expansive than the marinne.:
Zergling/ultra can be deadly too but if engaging in a choke point vs immortal/marauder they would get exterminated while they cost way more.
The SH, infestor , queen corruptor viper can crush death ball but this comp is very slow and if bad positionned can be crushed.
Same with roach/hydra if concave is bad.
Terran bioball is the same.
Protoss used to say their positionning can kill them cause they use to play massing the high tiers units and if this army is crushed they fortunatly can't replace it easily.
But mech army is the using the same strategy but they way more sensitive to bad positionning. If caught unsiege, or blindind with cloud the mech is crushed.
Toss however are not that sensitive and they can remplace their AOE with ht warps.
|
On January 08 2014 22:19 painkilla wrote:
There are 7 tvp wins, 4 from Maru, 2 from TY, two best micro & multitasking terrans in the planet against inferior opponents (not Rain or Parting). It shows that P is still imba because no other terran can win vP.
Logic overwhelming...
|
Logic overwhelming...
Well, when we talk about 50% toss on ladder AND tournaments, while there is only 10 to 20% terran, you don't agree saying this is a problem.
While Logic AND Experience show everyone that when something is imbalanced, there is more player choosing it. In EVERY game you can find.
For Sc2 we have Early GOMTvT and PatchZerg Era to prove it. And 'Toss don't win tournaments' isn't the correct answer either. Foreigner terran weren't winning a lot more in GomTvT, while KR Zerg and Toss have been able more than once to win a GSL at that time. And a GSL was won by a terran in the post-queen buff, in a Terran versus Protoss final.
So YES, there is a problem when 40% of the toss you meet say they were previously Terran or Zerg, there is a problem when 75% of the matchs in a cup involved at least one protoss, if not two.
Edit for below: I was referring to the good logic wasn't take into account EVEN when it was obvious, so why not try a stupid one? maybe they'll take it this time
|
On January 09 2014 00:49 MTAC wrote:Well, when we talk about 50% toss on ladder AND tournaments, while there is only 10 to 20% terran, you don't agree saying this is a problem. While Logic AND Experience show everyone that when something is imbalanced, there is more player choosing it. In EVERY game you can find. For Sc2 we have Early GOMTvT and PatchZerg Era to prove it. And 'Toss don't win tournaments' isn't the correct answer either. Foreigner terran weren't winning a lot more in GomTvT, while KR Zerg and Toss have been able more than once to win a GSL at that time. And a GSL was won by a terran in the post-queen buff, in a Terran versus Protoss final. So YES, there is a problem when 40% of the toss you meet say they were previously Terran or Zerg, there is a problem when 75% of the matchs in a cup involved at least one protoss, if not two.
I think he was referring to the "logic" used in the quote. Which truly is one of a kind.
|
In the last two weeks of Proleague + Show Spoiler [source] +http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Proleague/Round_1 (I took players sent out + players planned to be sent out if a 3-0 occured.
53 Protoss
31 Zerg
20 Terran
104 total.
Draw your own conclusions.
|
On January 09 2014 01:10 SC2Toastie wrote:In the last two weeks of Proleague + Show Spoiler [source] +http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Proleague/Round_1 (I took players sent out + players planned to be sent out if a 3-0 occured. : 53 Protoss 31 Zerg 20 Terran 104 total. Draw your own conclusions.
A lot of good terrans and zerg players don't play in proleague? I agree.
|
On January 09 2014 01:53 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 01:10 SC2Toastie wrote:In the last two weeks of Proleague + Show Spoiler [source] +http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Proleague/Round_1 (I took players sent out + players planned to be sent out if a 3-0 occured. : 53 Protoss 31 Zerg 20 Terran 104 total. Draw your own conclusions. A lot of good terrans and zerg players don't play in proleague? I agree.
Obvious troll is obvious
|
On January 09 2014 02:06 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 01:53 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 09 2014 01:10 SC2Toastie wrote:In the last two weeks of Proleague + Show Spoiler [source] +http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Proleague/Round_1 (I took players sent out + players planned to be sent out if a 3-0 occured. : 53 Protoss 31 Zerg 20 Terran 104 total. Draw your own conclusions. A lot of good terrans and zerg players don't play in proleague? I agree. Obvious troll is obvious
I think that you troll me, but ok
|
Aren't trolls the ones with broken grammar?
+ Show Spoiler [Illustration] +"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like
mutton again tomorrer," said one of the trolls.
"Never a blinking bit of manflesh have we had for long enough," said a
second. "What the 'ell William was a-thinkin' of to bring us into these
parts at all, beats me - and the drink runnin' short, what's more," he said
jogging the elbow of William, who was taking a pull at his jug.
William choked. "Shut yer mouth!" he said as soon as he could. "Yer
can't expect folk to stop here for ever just to be et by you and Bert.
You've get a village and a half between yer, since we come down from the
mountains. How much more d'yer want? And time's been up our way, when yer'd
have said 'thank yer Bill' for a nice bit o' fat valley mutton like what
this is." He took a big bite off a sheep's leg he was toasting, and wiped
his lips on his sleeve. - The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien, p. 16
|
On January 09 2014 02:15 Ghanburighan wrote:Aren't trolls the ones with broken grammar? + Show Spoiler [Illustration] +"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like
mutton again tomorrer," said one of the trolls.
"Never a blinking bit of manflesh have we had for long enough," said a
second. "What the 'ell William was a-thinkin' of to bring us into these
parts at all, beats me - and the drink runnin' short, what's more," he said
jogging the elbow of William, who was taking a pull at his jug.
William choked. "Shut yer mouth!" he said as soon as he could. "Yer
can't expect folk to stop here for ever just to be et by you and Bert.
You've get a village and a half between yer, since we come down from the
mountains. How much more d'yer want? And time's been up our way, when yer'd
have said 'thank yer Bill' for a nice bit o' fat valley mutton like what
this is." He took a big bite off a sheep's leg he was toasting, and wiped
his lips on his sleeve. - The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien, p. 16
I surrender, you win!
|
Balance is subjective as well as political. Some use tournament representation to make their point, and others use winrates to make theirs etc. No one can be absolutely sure that player A playing race X is "better" than player B playing race Y, either.
However, if (almost) ALL the indicators show that one race is doing significantly better than the other 2, then the race is highly likely to be OP. Historically speaking, all 3 of Aligulac winrates, tournament representation and KR GM ladder representatoin favored Terran pre-queen patch. Then Zerg started to have higher numbers in all these 3 indicators post-queen patch. In addition, August, October and November of 2013 are the only months since WoL release in 2010(42 months in total) that Protoss has the highest winrate according to Aligulac data, and it's probably not a coincidence that Protoss tournament & ladder representation seem to be high recently.
Problem is that environment surrounding sc2 is different these days. When Terran dominated the scene back in 2011, the game was new enough that players playing other races didn't just quit playing starcraft due to some balance issues. Also, during Zerg domination, we were able to have hope and patiently wait for HotS because we knew that it was coming soon. However, sc2 is not new anymore, we don't know when LotV is coming out, and other games are more popular today. Therefore, sc2 players today look more impatient to imbalances.
T OP got away because the game was new.
Z OP got away because HotS was coming soon.
P OP today can't get away like them because we have alternatives like Dota2, LoL, Hearthstone etc. and there is no reason for frustrated T/Z to keep playing sc2.
T OP lasted longer, Z OP was more severe, so P OP today is relatively short and arguably mild, but it's such a big deal because of diffferent environment sc2 is in today compared to 1-2 years ago.
|
|
|
United States1072 Posts
I'm surprised noone commented on what i wrote  put some thought into it
|
Aligulac stats say PvT was 51.6% in December. Just throwing some facts in here, I get the impression from our angry forum Terrans the PvT matchup is around 80% in favor of Protoss but it appears quite close to even. Just an effort to restore the peace on the forums a bit, blind Protoss hate everywhere nowadays >_<
http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/
|
Yes, Proleague makes a strong case of saying that TvP is in favor of Terran. Maru, Flash and TY playing against mid-range Protosses going for the most obvious half-assed blink-all-ins made that pretty obvious.
Jokes aside, it's still just a handful of games, fellows. I wouldn't mind a Terran nerf based on that though, the games seemed a little easy.
Edit: Wow, 2 "obvious" in the same sentence, haha.
|
Yeah Orek is right. Blizzard takes so long to release necesseray balance patch compare to riot for exemple.
For example the length of photon overcharge : Since the release of HOTS players have complained about it, and now after this long blizzard is considering to reduce it but they just make a test map for now.
They can't even argue that balance change can make competition unfair cause there are way more competition on LOL and more viewers. Moreover on LOL if a hero is OP everyone can play/ban him or take specific counter. On sc2 if a race is underpower a pro gamer can't really switch race, so he gets screwed until the next balance patch, which mean around three months or more.
|
On January 09 2014 03:48 ZenithM wrote:
Yes, Proleague makes a strong case of saying that TvP is in favor of Terran. Maru, Flash and TY playing against mid-range Protosses going for the most obvious half-assed blink-all-ins made that pretty obvious.
Jokes aside, it's still just a handful of games, fellows. I wouldn't mind a Terran nerf based on that though, the games seemed a little easy.
Point being that this is miles from being anything like BL/infestor or the 1-1-1 era. All these hysterical cries about their ladder points are primarily hysterical. Terran is still more competitive than toss was for long stretches of SC2's life.
That's of course not an endorsement of terrible design. The more time that goes on the more obvious the MsC might match the Warhound for laziest new unit.
|
On January 09 2014 03:52 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 03:48 ZenithM wrote:
Yes, Proleague makes a strong case of saying that TvP is in favor of Terran. Maru, Flash and TY playing against mid-range Protosses going for the most obvious half-assed blink-all-ins made that pretty obvious.
Jokes aside, it's still just a handful of games, fellows. I wouldn't mind a Terran nerf based on that though, the games seemed a little easy. Point being that this is miles from being anything like BL/infestor or the 1-1-1 era. All these hysterical cries about their ladder points are primarily hysterical. Terran is still more competitive than toss was for long stretches of SC2's life. That's of course not an endorsement of terrible design. The more time that goes on the more obvious the MsC might match the Warhound for laziest new unit.
I wouldn't put 1/1/1 next to Broodlord Infestor.
There was the early WoL era in which Terran was stronger than Zerg/Protoss (because aggression in a new game is always stronger than defense, because defensive builds are designed around defending aggression, but when all aggression is new and unaccounted for, it is obviously going to work). 1/1/1 was more of a early 2012/late 2011 problem
|
On January 08 2014 20:05 -Celestial- wrote:Between Toastie and this Survivor guy this thread is highly amusing. You know what? Believe what you want. I laid out factual things that need doing to optimally control a Protoss army that have a major effect on engagements. Don't want to believe it because you want to cry some more? Fine, don't. I really don't care what you think, I'm giving you information and flat out pointing out where you are wrong. I'm not really interested in listening to you yell about how unfair it all is so you can ignore your own failings and blame them on imbalance; try someone else. Designated whine thread indeed. Its like Battle.net forums in here. My favourite one: Show nested quote +edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all... Its like you haven't even noticed the constant threads cherry picking evidence to "prove" how weak Terran is. X-D
Lol, youre funny. Cry harder man
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
