On January 08 2014 10:47 ffadicted wrote: It's 2014 and people still don't realize that protoss suffers the most from non-optimal army control and micro, poor engagement positioning, etc lol That was the whole reasoning for recall to be created in the first place. At this point, making fun of a-move toss is about as valid as the old "1sr" comment tosses used to make for ZvP lol
But what's the point of arguing really lol
Protoss suffers more than terran from non-optimal army control in PvT? Because 2 storms can suddenly end the game for you like they did for Flash, right? You cannot actually believe this bullshit.
The point of recall wasn't to recall you out of a bad engagement, it was to allow you move out in the first place without risking your entire army because the opponent outspeeds it and just walking back home isn't an option. Hell, try playing mech terran against roach/hydra/viper or just archon/immortal and come tell me again how protoss suffers the most from bad positioning.
On January 08 2014 10:47 ffadicted wrote: It's 2014 and people still don't realize that protoss suffers the most from non-optimal army control and micro, poor engagement positioning, etc lol That was the whole reasoning for recall to be created in the first place. At this point, making fun of a-move toss is about as valid as the old "1sr" comment tosses used to make for ZvP lol
But what's the point of arguing really lol
Protoss suffers more than terran from non-optimal army control in PvT? Because 2 storms can suddenly end the game for you like they did for Flash, right? You cannot actually believe this bullshit.
The point of recall wasn't to recall you out of a bad engagement, it was to allow you move out in the first place without risking your entire army because the opponent outspeeds it and just walking back home isn't an option. Hell, try playing mech terran against roach/hydra/viper or just archon/immortal and come tell me again how protoss suffers the most from bad positioning.
Protoss suffers the most from bad positioning
edit: well I supposed I'll admit if you manage to somehow get surrounded by zerg completely unsieged that's probably worse. But other than that, ya, toss by far the worst
On January 08 2014 10:47 ffadicted wrote: It's 2014 and people still don't realize that protoss suffers the most from non-optimal army control and micro, poor engagement positioning, etc lol That was the whole reasoning for recall to be created in the first place. At this point, making fun of a-move toss is about as valid as the old "1sr" comment tosses used to make for ZvP lol
But what's the point of arguing really lol
Protoss suffers more than terran from non-optimal army control in PvT? Because 2 storms can suddenly end the game for you like they did for Flash, right? You cannot actually believe this bullshit.
The point of recall wasn't to recall you out of a bad engagement, it was to allow you move out in the first place without risking your entire army because the opponent outspeeds it and just walking back home isn't an option. Hell, try playing mech terran against roach/hydra/viper or just archon/immortal and come tell me again how protoss suffers the most from bad positioning.
Protoss suffers the most from bad positioning
edit: well I supposed I'll admit if you manage to somehow get surrounded by zerg completely unsieged that's probably worse. But other than that, ya, toss by far the worst
What is this, the message board equivalent of putting fingers in your ears and going "lalala"?
There's nothing about the protoss army that would make it more vulnerable to bad positioning than the other races armies. Hell, it even has the option to recall out as well as spam force fields to make up for getting caught in a shitty spot.
On January 08 2014 10:47 ffadicted wrote: It's 2014 and people still don't realize that protoss suffers the most from non-optimal army control and micro, poor engagement positioning, etc lol That was the whole reasoning for recall to be created in the first place. At this point, making fun of a-move toss is about as valid as the old "1sr" comment tosses used to make for ZvP lol
But what's the point of arguing really lol
Protoss suffers more than terran from non-optimal army control in PvT? Because 2 storms can suddenly end the game for you like they did for Flash, right? You cannot actually believe this bullshit.
The point of recall wasn't to recall you out of a bad engagement, it was to allow you move out in the first place without risking your entire army because the opponent outspeeds it and just walking back home isn't an option. Hell, try playing mech terran against roach/hydra/viper or just archon/immortal and come tell me again how protoss suffers the most from bad positioning.
Protoss suffers the most from bad positioning
edit: well I supposed I'll admit if you manage to somehow get surrounded by zerg completely unsieged that's probably worse. But other than that, ya, toss by far the worst
What is this, the message board equivalent of putting fingers of your ears and going "lalala"?
There's nothing about the protoss army that would make it more vulnerable to bad positioning than the other races armies. Hell, it even has the option to recall out as well as spam force fields to make up for getting caught in a shitty spot.
Some of Protoss's most important units are vulnerable to AA fire. Additionally, the Protoss army moves at the slowest speed out of the standard armies of each race. There is no running away, no disengaging with a Protoss force. If you are caught out of position, you HAVE to fight.
You may be able to engage and cast spells that allow you to then disengage, but you can't just outright retreat the way the ZvP and TvP armies can.
On January 08 2014 10:47 ffadicted wrote: It's 2014 and people still don't realize that protoss suffers the most from non-optimal army control and micro, poor engagement positioning, etc lol That was the whole reasoning for recall to be created in the first place. At this point, making fun of a-move toss is about as valid as the old "1sr" comment tosses used to make for ZvP lol
But what's the point of arguing really lol
Protoss suffers more than terran from non-optimal army control in PvT? Because 2 storms can suddenly end the game for you like they did for Flash, right? You cannot actually believe this bullshit.
The point of recall wasn't to recall you out of a bad engagement, it was to allow you move out in the first place without risking your entire army because the opponent outspeeds it and just walking back home isn't an option. Hell, try playing mech terran against roach/hydra/viper or just archon/immortal and come tell me again how protoss suffers the most from bad positioning.
Protoss suffers the most from bad positioning
edit: well I supposed I'll admit if you manage to somehow get surrounded by zerg completely unsieged that's probably worse. But other than that, ya, toss by far the worst
What is this, the message board equivalent of putting fingers of your ears and going "lalala"?
There's nothing about the protoss army that would make it more vulnerable to bad positioning than the other races armies. Hell, it even has the option to recall out as well as spam force fields to make up for getting caught in a shitty spot.
Some of Protoss's most important units are vulnerable to AA fire. Additionally, the Protoss army moves at the slowest speed out of the standard armies of each race. There is no running away, no disengaging with a Protoss force. If you are caught out of position, you HAVE to fight.
You may be able to engage and cast spells that allow you to then disengage, but you can't just outright retreat the way the ZvP and TvP armies can.
Wtf is this? Protoss, the least mobile and suffers most from bad positioning?
Forcefields: Like, really? Toss can force people out of good positions with forcefields. Toss can MAKE their own good positioning with forcefields.
Storms: Bad positions are defined for zerg and terran by where storms can deal the most damage.
Time Warp: Holy shit have you seen how badly this screws over retreating players? Like suddenly half their army is trapped in a bad spot. Literally again making your own positioning and making the other guys position worse.
Recall: Instant town portal?
Colossi: AKA: THE MOST MOBILE SIEGE UNIT IN THE GAME
all this game needs is mothership core to be attached to a nexus but can photon overcharge any nexus they have with the photon overcharge ability costing 125.. It could still recall but make it so mothership core is a defensive unit only would fix tvp in my oppinion
On January 08 2014 04:22 Sabu113 wrote: 1-15 in PL so far. All conquering protoss... not so all conquering when matches are played. Even the Bo1s commonly thought to favor toss.
Well I haven't checked the stats for all the games..but I did watch the first match and I know Rain and Parting won..so you're already wrong.. Forgive me at this point if I don't believe a word you say..
Wow. You are such a nice guy, really. If you would bother at least little bit, you would get, that he meant Protoss stats in Week 2 of Proleague. While this statistics doesn't prove anything about balance, if the Terran would be 1-15, these forums (as well as ladder, twitch chat,...) would be full of Terran whine, you would be probably demanding removing Protoss race from the game, and you would bash every Protoss player on the ladder just for playing Protoss. Wait, that's already happening, despite Terran having great results lately.
On January 08 2014 14:39 Dragonm_sc2 wrote: all this game needs is mothership core to be attached to a nexus but can photon overcharge any nexus they have with the photon overcharge ability costing 125.. It could still recall but make it so mothership core is a defensive unit only would fix tvp in my oppinion
Okay, good option, but u nerfin' the biggest benefit that MSC gives to a protoss, and it is VISION RANGE, yes timewarp is a good positioning spell also, combined with storms makes it rly efficient, recall is just a recall, i used to love WOL mothership recall much more than recent one. Making msc as a defensive unit u force every protoss to play defensivly since the very beginning of the game.
On January 08 2014 04:22 Sabu113 wrote: 1-15 in PL so far. All conquering protoss... not so all conquering when matches are played. Even the Bo1s commonly thought to favor toss.
Well I haven't checked the stats for all the games..but I did watch the first match and I know Rain and Parting won..so you're already wrong.. Forgive me at this point if I don't believe a word you say..
Wow. You are such a nice guy, really. If you would bother at least little bit, you would get, that he meant Protoss stats in Week 2 of Proleague. While this statistics doesn't prove anything about balance, if the Terran would be 1-15, these forums (as well as ladder, twitch chat,...) would be full of Terran whine, you would be probably demanding removing Protoss race from the game, and you would bash every Protoss player on the ladder just for playing Protoss. Wait, that's already happening, despite Terran having great results lately.
Lol how would I have known that genius? I cant read his mind. I took the information I had (that he provided) and answered from there. Sorry I didnt randomly know to start with week 2...lmao. And why are you jumping down my throat? All I said, was that I wasnt going to believe a word he said..another guy is the one who called him stupid (which I agreed with at the time because he wasnt making any sense).
edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all...
Thing is that Protoss has so many positional spells that while worse in bad positions, they can still create position. If these spells are not used optimally and do not create said position, then Protoss is the army that suffers most from bad position. I can understand the frustration with Protoss, but Protoss also have frustrations in the game.
On January 08 2014 18:38 ejozl wrote: Thing is that Protoss has so many positional spells that while worse in bad positions, they can still create position. If these spells are not used optimally and do not create said position, then Protoss is the army that suffers most from bad position. I can understand the frustration with Protoss, but Protoss also have frustrations in the game.
Yes and no at the same time. Yes u can create a good positions on the map like belshir vestige, and theoretically u can do the same at the middle of direlict watcher, but at what cost?
Personally I would like to change colosi to reaver, or let's redesign somehow, increase the cost of colosi, add reaver and add some stats to stalker (reduce the cost), so protoss army would be more stalkerheavy which automatically makes it more mobile.
Between Toastie and this Survivor guy this thread is highly amusing.
You know what? Believe what you want. I laid out factual things that need doing to optimally control a Protoss army that have a major effect on engagements. Don't want to believe it because you want to cry some more? Fine, don't. I really don't care what you think, I'm giving you information and flat out pointing out where you are wrong. I'm not really interested in listening to you yell about how unfair it all is so you can ignore your own failings and blame them on imbalance; try someone else.
Designated whine thread indeed. Its like Battle.net forums in here.
My favourite one:
edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all...
Its like you haven't even noticed the constant threads cherry picking evidence to "prove" how weak Terran is. X-D
On January 08 2014 20:05 -Celestial- wrote: Between Toastie and this Survivor guy this thread is highly amusing.
You know what? Believe what you want. I laid out factual things that need doing to optimally control a Protoss army that have a major effect on engagements. Don't want to believe it because you want to cry some more? Fine, don't. I really don't care what you think, I'm giving you information and flat out pointing out where you are wrong. I'm not really interested in listening to you yell about how unfair it all is so you can ignore your own failings and blame them on imbalance; try someone else.
Designated whine thread indeed. Its like Battle.net forums in here.
edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all...
Its like you haven't even noticed the constant threads cherry picking evidence to "prove" how weak Terran is. X-D
That's an easy way out, just ad hominem the other guy and be the tough dude hangin' around. gj!
On January 08 2014 18:33 Survivor61316 wrote: edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all...
Well in Proleague altogether Protos is 11-24, which is no very good either. I believe his point is, that there seem to been no reason to whine about TvP, like you guys do. And my point was, that guys like you will whine no matter what.
On January 08 2014 18:33 Survivor61316 wrote: edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all...
Well in Proleague altogether Protos is 11-24, which is no very good either. I believe his point is, that there seem to been no reason to whine about TvP, like you guys do. And my point was, that guys like you will whine no matter what.
You're wrong about the first point; there's probably still reason to whine about TvP. But you're extremely right about the second point, these people would still whine every time we win if we won 10% of the time. So take from that what you will.
On January 08 2014 18:33 Survivor61316 wrote: edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all...
Well in Proleague altogether Protos is 11-24, which is no very good either. I believe his point is, that there seem to been no reason to whine about TvP, like you guys do. And my point was, that guys like you will whine no matter what.
14-6 for terrans, 18-31 for protoss. Means protoss has ben aligned more than twice more than terran in PL so far.
On January 08 2014 18:33 Survivor61316 wrote: edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all...
Well in Proleague altogether Protos is 11-24, which is no very good either. I believe his point is, that there seem to been no reason to whine about TvP, like you guys do. And my point was, that guys like you will whine no matter what.
You're wrong about the first point; there's probably still reason to whine about TvP. But you're extremely right about the second point, these people would still whine every time we win if we won 10% of the time. So take from that what you will.
That's quite correct on both accounts. But the silver lining is that on both aligulac last month and due to last week in PL, there's a definite downturn on the trend for P to gain more wins over T. There might be a shift on the way, even if I don't understand it nor can I verify it with the few games we have so far.
In proleague we have top 5 terrans against 20 protosses so if the win rate were 50-50 it would mean tvp is absurdly imba in favor of protoss. So yes there's still reason to be whining when to beat protoss terrans must have god like micro and multitasking like TY and Maru
On January 08 2014 18:33 Survivor61316 wrote: edit: And exactly what point was he trying to make there anyways then? Way to cherry pick evidence that only supports his position. Thats not biased at all...
Well in Proleague altogether Protos is 11-24, which is no very good either. I believe his point is, that there seem to been no reason to whine about TvP, like you guys do. And my point was, that guys like you will whine no matter what.
Midleading stats, 11-24 includes a good number of losses vs zergs. There are 7 tvp wins, 4 from Maru, 2 from TY, two best micro & multitasking terrans in the planet against inferior opponents (not Rain or Parting). It shows that P is still imba because no other terran can win vP. Winrate alone is not a good way to look t balance.
No, TvP is 9-4 in favour of Terran (which is even worse percentually, than 24-11)... I don't know where you get, that Terran has only 7 wins. Terran players, who was able to beat Prototss: Maru, TY, Flash, Keen, Cure. Protoss players who beat Terran: Rain, Yonghwa, Sora, Zest. With Zest beating Bbyong, and Yonghwa beating Keen. Not much surprise there either. Only upset was IMO Sora vs Flash, but Flash don't perform well lately. Similar upset (at least for me) was sOs vsn TY, but sOs haven't shown us very good play lately, and TY is in really good form. So i wouldn't say that Protoss has significantly weaker lineup in Proleague, than Terran. But as I said, there is no point in arguing, for you Protoss will always be imba, and you will be always whining. Maybe if Protoss had like 5% winrate for about a year, you guys would shut up at least for a week, but I'm not sure about it.
EPT
