EPTTerran may be too strong in some areas, but its ridiculous how people take every opportunity to complain about them. Not everything that is effective is also imbalanced.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 81
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Terran may be too strong in some areas, but its ridiculous how people take every opportunity to complain about them. Not everything that is effective is also imbalanced. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 09 2011 01:59 Techno wrote: That's fine. I knew that this was the wrong mindset, in fact, I probably just should have refrained. I think most people look at the generally poor results across the board from Protoss and think this is pure evidence of Protoss being shit forever because of the mathematics of the game. I think this is the wrong mindset. I think all of this comes down to one man: ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/9/93/Mcclawgslmay.png/200px-Mcclawgslmay.png) If he was winning Code S, this thread would look alot different. You're right, but not in the way you think. The simple truth of it (which the TL article nicely points out), is that Protoss as a whole was never particularly good. It was always MC, only MC. He's the only Protoss to have winrates in all matchups that are even remotely impressive. He's the only one to ever threaten the top players of other races. If anything, this would suggest that he's much more skilled than all the "amazing" Terrans on the rise nowadays, being able to find success with an inferior race like that. Just like Nestea, with his Open Season 2 win. Just as an aside, if you want to see a non 1/1/1 PvT where the better player loses, watch MC vs PuMa at IEM. It was a funny experience, reading the LR thread and listening to the cast, both of them in awe of how MC was outplaying PuMa. And then PuMa sniped a warp prism, and rolled MC with some EMPs despite being behind the whole game and losing 3 drops for nothing. | ||
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beute
Germany197 Posts
When MVP fell, it didnt look like the whole race was in decline now was it? It was still the race with the most players in Code S. MVP fell, but the overall terran statistics did not. this time statistics seem to actually back up MC's decline, they're going down with him, suggesting that it is more than just a personal slump of MC. I mean, I doubt the terran community was even giving a shit when MVP fell to code-a, maybe they cared, but I dont remember anyone with credibility actually blaming it on terran being weak. Meanwhile people are going on a rampage because when it comes to the whole protoss situation in the GSL. | ||
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Vardant
Czech Republic620 Posts
The only meta game I see, is Toss losing left and right and slowly falling out of Code S. He was the only Protoss, that was actually on top and competing with the best Terrans and Zergs. If anything, he was too good... | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On September 09 2011 02:25 QTIP. wrote:The Infestor was specifically tweaked to deal with the VR / Colossus Death ball. It was very well documented through IMBALANCED / Blizzard patch explanation that Zerg did not have a viable option in dealing with it. If you think the snare effect is more important -- why did they reduce its length but instead buff its damage? This has let to the creation of a much more potent spell. Protosses were winning with other compositions than just Void Ray / Colossus. If you nerfed the Infestor too much that composition might become viable again, but the Infestor would still be able to deal with lots of other compositions, the point being that Zergs could've been doing a lot better than they were pre-patch if they had the knowledge of Zergs right now. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On September 09 2011 02:33 Toadvine wrote:Just as an aside, if you want to see a non 1/1/1 PvT where the better player loses, watch MC vs PuMa at IEM. It was a funny experience, reading the LR thread and listening to the cast, both of them in awe of how MC was outplaying PuMa. And then PuMa sniped a warp prism, and rolled MC with some EMPs despite being behind the whole game and losing 3 drops for nothing. MC didn't outplay Puma, he was ahead in supply because he wasn't getting upgrades when Puma rushed to 2/2. Then MC attacked at a really bad angle and lost most of his army for very little, didn't get any good storms off and then proceeded to get all his remaining clumped HT EMPed. He was even the one who forced the engagement, he lost the game because of clear mistakes. Shit like that doesn't belong in a balance discussion, sorry. It's better to try to find mistakes in people's play than to blame it on balance when talking about specific games. edit: oh btw, he lost his Warp Prism by flying it directly over the bioball. It was his mistakes that lost him the game. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 09 2011 02:26 Trealador wrote: MC has not kept up with the meta game, that is why is he is in Code A. I just looked at the winrate for the last GSL, there was nothing you could point out and call imbalanced from looking at it. Generally if its bio vs standard protoss builds the better player wins, and the ghost vs HT is pretty balanced at the highest level. I don't know why people expect perfect HT control and the best way to play everything after just 1 year of the game being out. Terrans made ghosts when HT had KA, but warping in storms was insanely not working as intended as EMP is intended to be needed to weaken the protoss army and have a way to challenge timings protoss have in upgrade advantages. Terran have no good Tier 3 units against protoss and need to spam barracks and tier 2 units to win, this is why the match up is balanced. Honestly I am starting to agree with IdrA more and more that Protoss are just dumb. They do crazy all in strats that really seem half baked (Trickster vs taeja) and players like MC getting raped because he can't scout. I just don't see much change in the protoss in the GSL and terran and zerg just seem to have them figured out in the few timings they can use early. I personally would like to see protoss use their chrono more efficiently instead of having it pool up. Instead of making additional 2 gateways, if they spent their chrono all game on the gateways they would get more units out for the gateways they have. The thread does seem pretty bad, but mostly because people don't want to actually hear anything other than "omg I know, isn't it imba!" I play terran and I know blue flame was imba, i know the 1/1/1 is imba, and I know immortals are terrible. I also know that if a protoss lands 2 storms it completely changes the game, that is why HT are easier to hit with EMP. Terran can reduce their shields but not actually kill with EMP, and the reason a lot of protoss are losing HT is because they are trying to run to save the storm instead of just using feedback. It takes them 2 clicks to snipe a HT, and 1 click to feedback, come on now. It also takes 1 click to render an entire group of HT's useless. | ||
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fraktoasters
United States617 Posts
On September 09 2011 01:34 Rorschach wrote: nobody ever complained about amulet being OP. It wasn't until it was removed did people jump on the band wagon and cry about it. Terran weren't using ghost very much at all (just MMM) and whining about collossi being too good (which their damage was nerfed as a result) No but people definitely were complaining that late game Protoss was OP and Blizzard decided that nerfing amulet was the way to fix it. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On September 09 2011 02:48 QTIP. wrote: It also takes 1 click to render an entire group of HT's useless. And 1 click to kill 20 marines, but surely we are better players than that? | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 09 2011 02:50 Bagi wrote: And 1 click to kill 20 marines, but surely we are better players than that? Of course. More importantly - I was simply rebutting that one comment he made (hence the bold) , since it was remarkably short sighted. I don't mean to champion that kind of logic as a basis for discussion. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 02:26 Trealador wrote: MC has not kept up with the meta game, that is why is he is in Code A. I just looked at the winrate for the last GSL, there was nothing you could point out and call imbalanced from looking at it. Generally if its bio vs standard protoss builds the better player wins, and the ghost vs HT is pretty balanced at the highest level. I don't know why people expect perfect HT control and the best way to play everything after just 1 year of the game being out. Terrans made ghosts when HT had KA, but warping in storms was insanely not working as intended as EMP is intended to be needed to weaken the protoss army and have a way to challenge timings protoss have in upgrade advantages. Terran have no good Tier 3 units against protoss and need to spam barracks and tier 2 units to win, this is why the match up is balanced. Honestly I am starting to agree with IdrA more and more that Protoss are just dumb. They do crazy all in strats that really seem half baked (Trickster vs taeja) and players like MC getting raped because he can't scout. I just don't see much change in the protoss in the GSL and terran and zerg just seem to have them figured out in the few timings they can use early. I personally would like to see protoss use their chrono more efficiently instead of having it pool up. Instead of making additional 2 gateways, if they spent their chrono all game on the gateways they would get more units out for the gateways they have. The thread does seem pretty bad, but mostly because people don't want to actually hear anything other than "omg I know, isn't it imba!" I play terran and I know blue flame was imba, i know the 1/1/1 is imba, and I know immortals are terrible. I also know that if a protoss lands 2 storms it completely changes the game, that is why HT are easier to hit with EMP. Terran can reduce their shields but not actually kill with EMP, and the reason a lot of protoss are losing HT is because they are trying to run to save the storm instead of just using feedback. It takes them 2 clicks to snipe a HT, and 1 click to feedback, come on now. Snipe and emp outrange feedback. If both players control the best that is theoretically possible, the terran wins every time 100% simply by virtue of having more range on his abilities. Oh, and if a protoss trades all of his high templar energy to prevent all of the EMP's (somehow, miraculously pulls that off), it's still a failure because he doesn't have storms anymore, and the terran bio ball rolls the protoss army. Toss has to get the storms down, giving up storms for feedback is advantageous for terran, 'cause bio units > gateway units. | ||
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
On September 09 2011 02:59 Whitewing wrote: Snipe and emp outrange feedback. If both players control the best that is theoretically possible, the terran wins every time 100% simply by virtue of having more range on his abilities. Oh, and if a protoss trades all of his high templar energy to prevent all of the EMP's (somehow, miraculously pulls that off), it's still a failure because he doesn't have storms anymore, and the terran bio ball rolls the protoss army. Toss has to get the storms down, giving up storms for feedback is advantageous for terran, 'cause bio units > gateway units. At least somebody in this thread is not blind to the truth of the matter... Anyone who says that Ghost are not the best caster in the game is full of themselves... | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
Well he IS in a slump ... he is not 'the best' protoss atm, which he used to be. Also, NesTea IS the only zerg ... so he basically have the same position. Clearest evidence, imho, of the imbalance, is that so many different terrans, who seem mediocre at times, can outfight and beat the best protoss and zergs at any time. Atm the 20 5 7 race distribution of T P Z in code S just shows that it's easier for a mediocre terran to succeed, than a mediocre P or Z. And yes, by 'mediocre' I mean a non-dominant korean, who is actually better than 100% of foreigners ... I think that if ... Terran CC's couldn't lift off, so you actually could know whether or not and when a terran expands, would solve so much ... because atm you will easily lose the economy game, if you overprepare when you think the terran is 1 or 2 basing, while they are in fact building orbitals hidden in their main behind patrolling marines. And if you don't overprepare, the all ins are extremely powerful due to the same patrolling marines and wall offs. | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
On September 09 2011 03:09 aebriol wrote: People are referring to MC as the only protoss ... Well he IS in a slump ... he is not 'the best' protoss atm, which he used to be. Alright, who is? Remaining in Code S are: Puzzle, Genius, Huk, Killer and Hongun. Who of these do you think is better than MC? | ||
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
On September 09 2011 03:09 aebriol wrote: People are referring to MC as the only protoss ... Well he IS in a slump ... he is not 'the best' protoss atm, which he used to be. Also, NesTea IS the only zerg ... so he basically have the same position. Clearest evidence, imho, of the imbalance, is that so many different terrans, who seem mediocre at times, can outfight and beat the best protoss and zergs at any time. Atm the 20 5 7 race distribution of T P Z in code S just shows that it's easier for a mediocre terran to succeed, than a mediocre P or Z. And yes, by 'mediocre' I mean a non-dominant korean, who is actually better than 100% of foreigners ... I think that if ... Terran CC's couldn't lift off, so you actually could know whether or not and when a terran expands, would solve so much ... because atm you will easily lose the economy game, if you overprepare when you think the terran is 1 or 2 basing, while they are in fact building orbitals hidden in their main behind patrolling marines. And if you don't overprepare, the all ins are extremely powerful due to the same patrolling marines and wall offs. its not just MC, all toss are taking a nose dive SPOILERS MC - In Code A Alicia - Also knocked into code A Naniwa - Lack luster results the last few months Huk - ??? WhiteRa - Love him but also no tourney results I also hate terran command center lift off (don't care about other buildings as with switching addons it needed) | ||
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Crying
Bulgaria778 Posts
Seriously ghost are retarded (DeMuSliM said that he's amazed that ghosts,are not addressed in next patch ) Infestor is ridiculous at any levels.Its just a unit thats not BAD to have in your army,not like having a colosus and the teran having 30vikins.HT's DOESNT COUNTER Infestor cos of the slowness that have the HT and the overall bad pathing in the game ,clump... TT Trust me ,if blizzard doesn't do something RADICAL soon ENOUGH u will see WAVES OF PROGAMERS SWITCHING RACES,and we wouldn't see 20Terans in GSL we will see 25terrans 1 protoss and 6zergs. Its funny that other races have so much to innovate around,but no Protoss doesn't have that,and everyone who says make prisms should be banned from the world,just because prisms are GIMMICKY they aren't something u can play around with,they win a game , two, three,but soon or later they get figured out. Terrans shut down prism drops with 1 I SAY 1 viking,and w neeed 6+ stalkers to stop 1-2dropships??how's that? Everyone who says that this game is BALANCED is lying to themselves so bad,its not even laughable. And i lol at idra ,so do alot of protosses,for his sentence that he said on Inside the Game "Protoss players are just DUMB"??? what?So you say almost all korean progamers are dumb?That HerO who's Broodwar alias was Mini-Bisu?For all the amazing protosses that were in broodwar and switched over.They are dumb or the race is dumb? And my last sentence is that Byun the once known Protoss from Gsl1,switched to terran and for 2-3-4months he raped asses in GSL?How's that fare?Is he somekind of talented kid.I doubt that. | ||
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Crying
Bulgaria778 Posts
On September 09 2011 03:09 aebriol wrote: People are referring to MC as the only protoss ... Well he IS in a slump ... he is not 'the best' protoss atm, which he used to be. Also, NesTea IS the only zerg ... so he basically have the same position. Clearest evidence, imho, of the imbalance, is that so many different terrans, who seem mediocre at times, can outfight and beat the best protoss and zergs at any time. Atm the 20 5 7 race distribution of T P Z in code S just shows that it's easier for a mediocre terran to succeed, than a mediocre P or Z. And yes, by 'mediocre' I mean a non-dominant korean, who is actually better than 100% of foreigners ... I think that if ... Terran CC's couldn't lift off, so you actually could know whether or not and when a terran expands, would solve so much ... because atm you will easily lose the economy game, if you overprepare when you think the terran is 1 or 2 basing, while they are in fact building orbitals hidden in their main behind patrolling marines. And if you don't overprepare, the all ins are extremely powerful due to the same patrolling marines and wall offs. I think the same as you,just not the line u said NesTea is the only Zerg,LosirA,Leenock,CHECK EVEN are so damn good,not mentioning IdrA but he's still damn good. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On September 09 2011 03:16 Rorschach wrote: its not just MC, all toss are taking a nose dive SPOILERS MC - In Code A Alicia - Also knocked into code A Naniwa - Lack luster results the last few months Huk - ??? WhiteRa - Love him but also no tourney results I also hate terran command center lift off (don't care about other buildings as with switching addons it needed) Huk won DH Summer and HSC3, White-Ra won IPL2. Foreigner protoss are doing just fine currently, just look at someone like Mana who is beasting every tournament he attends. | ||
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
Most Protoss on here can generally agree that Protoss is underpowered right now, and being nerfed out the wazoo. Most Terran on here are quick to state that terran is not OP, and protoss is accurately balanced. Speaking as one with experience in both races, I personally find that right now Protoss has been screwed over, and Terran is WAY too forgiving of a race to play. Now I'm not saying we absolutely need to change the way Terran are, but I am saying we absolutely need to change the way Protoss are, because as it stands, Protoss is crap. And until you Terran commenters have invested as much time into playing toss as terran, you will never understand it. Toss only looks fine on paper. IRL, toss sucks ass. I ran into a friend of mine recently who I played a TON of SC2 with about 6 months ago. I asked him if he still plays (he's a toss player). His answer? "No man, toss is fucking grabage now. I'm not getting back on sc2 until they become useable again." If it's gotten to the point where protoss are switching races en masse (as I will be doing shortly) or even leaving the game entirely, I think your race is broken. /tirade | ||
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Crying
Bulgaria778 Posts
On September 09 2011 03:24 Rob28 wrote: I've played as both Terran and Protoss at the diamond level (back when it was the highest level), and I gotta say that unless someone has invested as much time into one race as the other, their "opinions" on the matter of race balance ought to be kept to themselves. Most Protoss on here can generally agree that Protoss is underpowered right now, and being nerfed out the wazoo. Most Terran on here are quick to state that terran is not OP, and protoss is accurately balanced. Speaking as one with experience in both races, I personally find that right now Protoss has been screwed over, and Terran is WAY too forgiving of a race to play. Now I'm not saying we absolutely need to change the way Terran are, but I am saying we absolutely need to change the way Protoss are, because as it stands, Protoss is crap. And until you Terran commenters have invested as much time into playing toss as terran, you will never understand it. Toss only looks fine on paper. IRL, toss sucks ass. I ran into a friend of mine recently who I played a TON of SC2 with about 6 months ago. I asked him if he still plays (he's a toss player). His answer? "No man, toss is fucking grabage now. I'm not getting back on sc2 until they become useable again." If it's gotten to the point where protoss are switching races en masse (as I will be doing shortly) or even leaving the game entirely, I think your race is broken. /tirade Personally i find myself having my honor and not changing to other race just because its under my rules,its just ..playing race that has significant advantage.ITS STUPID And i think i will quit too until it becomes stable,or some miraculous solution comes ..which i doubt. | ||
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