EPTWatching TvP (pro level) when I see a P beat a similarly skilled opponent it is normally because the T fucked up / didn't build ghosts or vikings.
So all in all pretty crappy MU and has been since early 2010 imo
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 79
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Spectorials
558 Posts
Watching TvP (pro level) when I see a P beat a similarly skilled opponent it is normally because the T fucked up / didn't build ghosts or vikings. So all in all pretty crappy MU and has been since early 2010 imo | ||
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Theovide
Sweden914 Posts
On September 08 2011 21:18 ForTheDr3am wrote: I don't see why that surprises anyone. The lategame was reasonably well balanced with 150/150 Ghosts and Amulet Templars (there was like one month where Protoss got over 55% winrate in GSL in PvT), now we have 200/100 Ghosts and no amulet templars. Which is why nearly all PvT lategame wins are by switching to Colossi with the Terran not building vikings fast enough. Though the 200/100 ghost change was a nerf in TvP, as the rest of your army is so mineral intensive. I don't agree to that the amulet was balanced either. In late game it was ridicilous to deal with, you could win a 200/200 food fight decesively, be on like 170 food vs 110, then lose your entire army to warped in HT's and be back to equal. The high win ratio terrans have right now in TvP I wouldn't say is because TvP is imba in anyway in lategame, it's more about the early game and especially the 1-1-1. Because 1-1-1 basically affects all games where a terran goes anything but gasless expand as protoss then has to prepare for on possible 1-1-1. Though the 1-1-1's popularity is still kind of new, so I'd actually prefer if the waited a bit more before changing anything, just to give players a chance to figure it out themselves. (The 1.4 patch will be good, it will help protoss players slightly to deal with 1-1-1, and I really think that's all that is needed.) | ||
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CreationSoul
Romania231 Posts
anyway i am a protoss player, and except the 1-1-1 which i have not yet figured out a good way to hold it, i find PvT pretty balanced, untill 4 ghost just carpet-emp my entire army. i was thinking of making EMP more like storm, not instant but with damage done over a short period of time. that way maybe i can escape with some of my forces. right now a few EMP's and my army will just get melted by the high DPS army of a terran! | ||
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Theovide
Sweden914 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:38 Spectorials wrote: I've found that at MY level, TvP is extremely volatile. I have a REALLY hard time surviving the first 15 minutes because most Terrans just cut workers and mass produce rax / MULE. BUT if I survive that first 15 minutes then it is a really EASY win, especially if I get to HT or have 2-3 colossus out. Watching TvP (pro level) when I see a P beat a similarly skilled opponent it is normally because the T fucked up / didn't build ghosts or vikings. So all in all pretty crappy MU and has been since early 2010 imo Early 2010? So you mean like early beta phase or? The game was released after the summer 2010. And TvP hasn't always been imbalanced in the terrans favor, that'd be ridicilous to claim. | ||
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Azz
Australia65 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:44 Theovide wrote: Though the 200/100 ghost change was a nerf in TvP, as the rest of your army is so mineral intensive. I don't agree to that the amulet was balanced either. In late game it was ridicilous to deal with, you could win a 200/200 food fight decesively, be on like 170 food vs 110, then lose your entire army to warped in HT's and be back to equal. The high win ratio terrans have right now in TvP I wouldn't say is because TvP is imba in anyway in lategame, it's more about the early game and especially the 1-1-1. Because 1-1-1 basically affects all games where a terran goes anything but gasless expand as protoss then has to prepare for on possible 1-1-1. Though the 1-1-1's popularity is still kind of new, so I'd actually prefer if the waited a bit more before changing anything, just to give players a chance to figure it out themselves. (The 1.4 patch will be good, it will help protoss players slightly to deal with 1-1-1, and I really think that's all that is needed.) That's like saying HTs with 100/100 or 150/50 would be "nerfing" them because the Zealots are so mineral-intensive. Cheaper (on gas) Ghosts mean that Terran can get additional Medivacs/Vikings with the gas, it's in no way a nerf. While warpin Storms were strong, Terrans barely built any Ghosts back then, and if they did they still did well. If you are 170 vs 110 food back then the best idea would be pulling back until you have EMPs available again if the army is too low health to survive Storms. Without warpin Storms, there are now situations where MC is 200 vs 170 food ahead, but loses the battle decisively simply because he lost 3 Templars. Or where Protoss loses the game against a single double-medivac drop because he has just used the majority of his warpgates elsewhere. I stand by my opinion that amulet would be perfectly balanced now, seeing that T finally started to build more than just 2-3 Ghosts. They would not make it possible to make ridiculous comebacks like you claim they do because T will just snipe/EMP them or box 2-3 units forwards to attack them, but they would help with drop defence and prevent Protoss from losing to massed Ghosts too easily, as well as making Storm drops more viable and expansions more defendable. Edit: But in all fairness I don't actually care, at least in comparision to what 1-1-1 does to Protoss progamers nowadays. | ||
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
On September 08 2011 17:22 Thrombozyt wrote: With the blue flame nerf on the PTR, I was wondering for a long time: Do worker really need the light attribute? If all worker would be neither light nor armored (like the archon for example), they would not take any bonus damage at all. Thus hellions would be great scouts and great against light units, but wouldn't be the game changer any more. The only other unit affected would be the baneling, but I guess it's the same thing.. it would remove ZvZ volatility and take away the "one overlord with +2 banes eradicates the mineral line of 2 bases" phenomenon. I like this. I would say bliz needs to remove the light attribute from workers (I mean SCVs are giant mechanical suits, and probes are robots of pure metal... can that be considered light?). As for banelings, buff them a bit, so they get a bonus vs everything but colossal (that is to say, their bonus won't be exclusively against light units anymore). It'll hamper terran mech play a bit, sure, but banes will be usable against marauders and stalkers which IMO isn't entirely unreasonable. Banelings aren't breaking the game, and I don't think it'll break it to make that change. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:55 ForTheDr3am wrote: That's like saying HTs with 100/100 or 150/50 would be "nerfing" them because the Zealots are so mineral-intensive. Cheaper (on gas) Ghosts mean that Terran can get additional Medivacs/Vikings with the gas, it's in no way a nerf. While warpin Storms were strong, Terrans barely built any Ghosts back then, and if they did they still did well. If you are 170 vs 110 food back then the best idea would be pulling back until you have EMPs available again if the army is too low health to survive Storms. Without warpin Storms, there are now situations where MC is 200 vs 170 food ahead, but loses the battle decisively simply because he lost 3 Templars. Or where Protoss loses the game against a single double-medivac drop because he has just used the majority of his warpgates elsewhere. I stand by my opinion that amulet would be perfectly balanced now, seeing that T finally started to build more than just 2-3 Ghosts. They would not make it possible to make ridiculous comebacks like you claim they do because T will just snipe/EMP them or box 2-3 units forwards to attack them, but they would help with drop defence and prevent Protoss from losing to massed Ghosts too easily, as well as making Storm drops more viable and expansions more defendable. Edit: But in all fairness I don't actually care, at least in comparision to what 1-1-1 does to Protoss progamers nowadays. The thing you're missing is that back when amulet existed, Terran late game compositions also incorporated lots of marauders, as opposed to now where it's almost pure marines with maybe 3-4 marauders thrown in for shells to prevent endless kiting. Protoss players also did not get blink because they relied on amulet warpins to beat drops. PvT lategame is extremely difficult to balance. Right now the super marine heavy compositions mean the Protoss only needs to get off, like, two good storms and Terran is dead. Terran is dominating Protoss because the pros have gotten really good at shutting down HTs and preventing any storms from going off at all, and as you know without AE marines dominate everything. If you nerf ghosts or buff templar in this role Terran has a huge problem. It only takes 2 storms to slaughter the marines, but if Terran makes too many marauders the Protoss can just kill them with pure chargelot/blinkstalker/archon, AE units not required. I would be happy with them just fixing the 1/1/1 garbage. I don't see lategame PvT getting good balance, the nature of marines prevents it. They either survive AEs virtually unscathed and slaughter everything or get completely massacred. | ||
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beute
Germany197 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:34 cordlc wrote: The problem with Khaydarin Amulet isn't whether or not it'd balance the game, it's that the design is stupid. Warp-in storms were retarded, whether the game was balanced with it or not. The problem is they never compensated for it. Fix other areas of the game, and when Protoss is back to feeling balanced, the KA change won't be brought up again. warping in a unit that cant do shit for 40 seconds is stupid... yeah blabla, ghost/infestor have to be trained, blabla... not an argument, it's one of protoss' core design to be able to warp in units on demand. Marines also need to be trained, while stalkers do not. should stalkers now be unable to attack for 30 seconds after every warp in? no, it's intended, it's the core of the protoss race, that's how protoss is designed. units pops = unit useful. if that is true for every other unit in the game, then it should be true for templars as well. What we have currently was implemented because of balance and not design issues. design wise it was a bad decision, not to mention that it's an incredibly boring solution to balance something. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
Protoss is not a race that can turtle and macro. Even FFE in PvZ doesn't do jack because zerg can cheat even more by double-expanding and drone up faster. Overall, protoss is about attacking and not defending. It's not a race that can just sack troop production for faster econ the way terran and zerg can. So protoss needs to be aggressive. It's what the race is designed to do. Because in any 10-minute-no-rush game, protoss loses because zerg can expand and drone whore while terran can finish its entire tech tree while protoss has to choose which of its super-expensive tech path to choose. Because protoss is designed so that it cannot expand quickly nor tech quickly. It was given something else, the ability to pressure quickly. Protoss can pressure his opponent into not cheating in econ or in tech. Then blizzard made it so that protoss can't pressure. And now it has nothing. | ||
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NoobieOne
United States1183 Posts
I think the solution is probably in a unit that people claimed earlier in the game had overpowered harass that now you don't see at all, the Void Ray. I remember a time that if terran or zerg wasn't ready for the void ray then it will do lots of damage and set me up to win the game. I think some of the changes to damage and speed have to be fixed (yes the mass void rays before was very strong in team games but now that people can micro I don't think it needed that much of a nerf) I am not saying revert it back to the insane amount of damage that it had before but at least help it in some way (even through returning the speed upgrade to help it survive like cloak does for banshees). Before people start saying that its harass would be too strong if people aren't ready for it think about other units that people might not be ready for, how many times have you seen a single cloak banshee kill a mineral line or a pack of mutalisks or a group of burrowed infestors hit someone who has moved their army out just a little too far. DTS kinda shy in comparison to them where they don't have a stand up battle use when their harass fails other than converting to archons. Protoss needs something to help them build up their army and delay the opponent from developing theirs and the void ray fills that role as a main army harass unit. Also lets look at harass opportunities with each race and examine them Terran + Show Spoiler + 1. Banshee- worker harass- A high risk high reward unit that can punish an opponent for moving out or for not having detection with its cloak upgrade. Sometimes see it winning games for terran with 20+ kills and surviving to fight in a battle where terran tries to target down AntiAir 2. Marine Drop- Worker or structure harass- Midgame harass that can be used effectively against a spread out opponent to pick off workers or tech structures, rarely see it win the game but it forces people playing against terran to have an answer for drops at all times in the midgame, taking away vital army strength in a time when people normally want to be attacking 3. Blue flame hellion drop/runby- Worker harass- Low risk, chance for high reward early game harass- 4 hellions cost 400 minerals and the blue flame upgrade can be used all game long where terran has an excess of minerals early game if they aren't planning on doing a timing push. Any mismicro from an opponent vs blue flame hellion means a dead worker line. A player can be microing fine until one misclick causes their workers to bunch up and the last hellion gets 2 shots off on the worker line killing all of them. 4. 4 Marauder drop- building harass- High risk low reward. Since this comes later than a marine drop generally does its more likely an opponent will be ready and can shoot down the drop ship and drop ships and marauders are both expensive. If the drop happens it generally does less damage but is good against buildings and can help to allow for a timing push where the opponent is rebuilding infrastructure. 5. Nuke- Late game harass- can be used late game to try to hit key tech structures or stop mining in certain bases. Ghosts are already a part of a late game terran army and the extra investment when you have a lot of extra money isn't really that big of a deal Zerg + Show Spoiler + 1. Baneling drop (or +2 baneling drop)- worker harass- high risk high reward, banelings and drop both cost a lot and as some players are finding out they cost too much (see this thread). They have potential however, to kill a whole mineral line and win you the game similar to what a banshee will do for terran if you aren't ready for it. 2. Mutalisk- worker or later structure orientated harass- Low risk continuous midgame-> lategame harassment. Mutalisks controlled well don't die and keep building up. They aren't going to eliminate a mineral line instantly but what they are going to do is force an opponent to constantly build up their defense and take strength away from their army similar to the threat that a marine drop has for terran. 3. Zergling runby- worker harass- low risk chance for high reward- Zerglings are expendable. If an opponent has a hole in his defenses running by zerglings is almost always the right choice it has potential in some numbers to kill lots of workers and is a huge problem for anyone to clean up. Though it works differently I think its very comparable to the blue flame hellions. 4. Burrowed infestors- Worker harass- High risk low relative reward- Like the marauder drop if its spotted you loose a lot. However if it isn't it can do a lot of damage. The reason I'm labeling it as a low reward is because of the cost of infestors. The 3-4 infestors used can cost more than the mineral line that its killing. 5. Nydus worm- late game harass- it is similar to the nuke in the sense that it is an investment late game where there is plenty of money and can potentially do a lot of damage and if its spotted not much is really lost. It can do more damage than the nuke but costs a lot more as well Protoss + Show Spoiler + 1. Dark Templar- Worker harass- High risk high reward if an opponent isn't prepared for it then there will be lots of damage and it might be able to win you a game probably similar to a baneling drop or cloaked banshees. 2. Phoenix- Worker harass- Low risk low reward. Phoenix don't really die during harass but are a very slow harass. They force the opponent to keep something back at their base taking away from an army push. They act similar to mutalisks or a marine drop. 3. Warp prism high templar drop-worker harass- High risk low reward. A Warp prism holding 1 or 2 high templar is quite valuable and if spotted can be really bad for the player who is doing it. The damage doesn't normally pay off but when it does a lot of workers are killed but it normally isn't worth the risk similar to a 4 marauder drop or burrowed infestor as you can see protoss has a lot less options than the other races to harass with no real building harass at all. I know that protoss isn't supposed to be a harass race but it should have some way to help it build up even if its units for harass aren't as efficient as the other races Void Rays main purpose when they had speed was the building harass, picking off a wall in or hitting exposed supply depots on the edge of the base. A buff to the void ray can make it a viable harass unit to match the building harass opportunities that other races have. I really think that it is vital that protoss have more options. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On September 08 2011 23:17 baubo wrote: My own two cents. Which is probably wrong but what the hey. Protoss is not a race that can turtle and macro. Even FFE in PvZ doesn't do jack because zerg can cheat even more by double-expanding and drone up faster. Overall, protoss is about attacking and not defending. It's not a race that can just sack troop production for faster econ the way terran and zerg can. So protoss needs to be aggressive. It's what the race is designed to do. Because in any 10-minute-no-rush game, protoss loses because zerg can expand and drone whore while terran can finish its entire tech tree while protoss has to choose which of its super-expensive tech path to choose. Because protoss is designed so that it cannot expand quickly nor tech quickly. It was given something else, the ability to pressure quickly. Protoss can pressure his opponent into not cheating in econ or in tech. Then blizzard made it so that protoss can't pressure. And now it has nothing. It common sense that you are suppose to pressure zerg and dont let him drone up. Even terran does this. If you do nothing but defend vs a zerg you will lose.....it rather common sense. Any 2 base timing usually are around 8-10min unless you go for mega death ball into split map. FFE does do something and that is to allow you to get your expo up fast and prepare for mid game. Of course your going to sacrifice the early game and let him expand again but there nothing you can do about it. Zerg suppose to be up 1 base anyways so ya....but with the extra gas you can get your tech faster and prepare for a 2 base push. That is the importances of forge FE and you cant pressure with it unless you cannon some how. Your saying protoss cant expand early, well they can 15 nex against zerg rather well and on some map vs terran as well. But yes, in PvT protoss can not really pressure which is kinda how the PvT meta game is right now it all about passive so ya....lol pvt boring anyways. | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:32 Sfydjklm wrote: You confuse cause and effect. The reason it seems that strong players in korea are terran is because terran are strong. And at this point because if there is anyone converting there is absolutely no point to choose any other race. Agreed. Top korean players are not good players that play terran but good terran players. If they pick protoss than they will fail as the rest of the toss players. However no one want to play a losing race so that's why there are so many terans. Terans just don't want to admit that they got the best race. I play protoss because it's my style, but I feel so frustrated that the race is so unpolished. I mean come on, we have 2 units that are useless. | ||
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:55 ForTheDr3am wrote: That's like saying HTs with 100/100 or 150/50 would be "nerfing" them because the Zealots are so mineral-intensive. Cheaper (on gas) Ghosts mean that Terran can get additional Medivacs/Vikings with the gas, it's in no way a nerf. While warpin Storms were strong, Terrans barely built any Ghosts back then, and if they did they still did well. If you are 170 vs 110 food back then the best idea would be pulling back until you have EMPs available again if the army is too low health to survive Storms. Without warpin Storms, there are now situations where MC is 200 vs 170 food ahead, but loses the battle decisively simply because he lost 3 Templars. Or where Protoss loses the game against a single double-medivac drop because he has just used the majority of his warpgates elsewhere. I stand by my opinion that amulet would be perfectly balanced now, seeing that T finally started to build more than just 2-3 Ghosts. They would not make it possible to make ridiculous comebacks like you claim they do because T will just snipe/EMP them or box 2-3 units forwards to attack them, but they would help with drop defence and prevent Protoss from losing to massed Ghosts too easily, as well as making Storm drops more viable and expansions more defendable. Edit: But in all fairness I don't actually care, at least in comparision to what 1-1-1 does to Protoss progamers nowadays. You make some excellent points. I think the whole EMP vs Storm debate could rage on for ever but the fact is Terran weren't building ghosts as much at the time. EMP requires a lot less skill and is nearly always guaranteed damage due to range and templar mobility. Once shields are depleted and/or HTs are sniped/EMP the toss gateway units just melt. Storm does not have near the momentum that EMP can get you. Compared to Fungal/EMP research is needed for storm and now there is no energy upgrade. IMHO Toss has just sustained too many nerfs the past year due to the perception that they are OP as a race. The game was brand new and Terran/Zerg took some time to figure out and received some substantial buffs along the way. Its a long shot but I hope the WP buff helps even the playing field in the HT vs Ghost relationship. | ||
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Tommie
China658 Posts
We could have seen terran dominance coming. Terran has the strongest 1base play ( important vs P ). Terran has the shortest tech tree, very good tier-1 with nice upgrades. Terran has by far the best harrass units. Terran has the best static defense. Terran has switchable addons. Terran tier 1 can be microes against all other tier-1. We need to give SC2 some time but I don't see Protoss and Zerg winning big tournaments once the level of play creeps towards its maximum unless the game changes. A lot.I dont like terran. Terran has no tech progression like in BW. | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On September 08 2011 23:34 Rorschach wrote: You make some excellent points. I think the whole EMP vs Storm debate could rage on for ever but the fact is Terran weren't building ghosts as much at the time. EMP requires a lot less skill and is nearly always guaranteed damage due to range and templar mobility. Once shields are depleted and/or HTs are sniped/EMP the toss gateway units just melt. Storm does not have near the momentum that EMP can get you. Compared to Fungal/EMP research is needed for storm and now there is no energy upgrade. IMHO Toss has just sustained too many nerfs the past year due to the perception that they are OP as a race. The game was brand new and Terran/Zerg took some time to figure out and received some substantial buffs along the way. Its a long shot but I hope the WP buff helps even the playing field in the HT vs Ghost relationship. Not to say that in a battle you can actually storm your own units. Speedlots are often stormed with the bio. And don't tell me it's all about micro and if you storm your own units you are stupid. It happens a lot. | ||
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Grubbegrabbn
Sweden174 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:46 CreationSoul wrote: Just a thought: we had the dark days of zergs (at the release) and now we have the dark days of protoss. will there ever be the dark days of terran? anyway i am a protoss player, and except the 1-1-1 which i have not yet figured out a good way to hold it, i find PvT pretty balanced, untill 4 ghost just carpet-emp my entire army. i was thinking of making EMP more like storm, not instant but with damage done over a short period of time. that way maybe i can escape with some of my forces. right now a few EMP's and my army will just get melted by the high DPS army of a terran! Hey wasnt zerg steamrolling quite a few terrans when hatch first was "invented"? I find TvP pretty balanced until 4 HTs carpet-storms my entire army ;D EMP.... At my level (silver - omg!) its easy vs an early gateway army that tends to clutter up during a fight. However, when a few storms hit, or a few collossi is cutting through everything - its insanely hard to stim bio to kite, put vikings in a good position, prevent medivacs from going freaking everywhere AND fire those god damn EMPs. However, from a P point of view I guess its keeping collosi away from vikings, FF the bio AND cast those god damn storms - lol. I read somewhere that the EMP should/could be a "missile" (like in BW) so you can have at least a slim chance of getting away - "blink"... but your idea about EMP damage over time is interesting. | ||
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
On September 08 2011 23:37 ceaRshaf wrote: Not to say that in a battle you can actually storm your own units. Speedlots are often stormed with the bio. And don't tell me it's all about micro and if you storm your own units you are stupid. It happens a lot. I forgot all about friendly fire. I am mean yes you could EMP your own energy units but that does not happen that often. Having your own units eating some storms is almost unavoidable though... | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
This lets feedback hit cloaked and burrowed units. Archives rushing now has some versatility in providing limited protection from a cloaked banshee rush. HTs can also hit cloaked enemy ghosts in the late game even when the protoss observers get scanned and one-shot. The other thing to mention is that the Protoss can no longer float an obs over an army and then walk up with a bunch of shift-queued feedbacks so easily. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
-The win rates aren't that bad -Every GSL game that isn't 1/1/1 where the Protoss loses, he deserved to lose and was the worse player in the game -The immortal buff will hopefully be enough for the 1/1/1 And finally, the most important piece: -Against Terran, Collossus/Chargelot/Stalker should be the core of your army, not HT, a landed storm should be a bonus, drastically swinging any engagement into your favour, not an obvious necessity -Medivacs should have a higher priority-to-kill value from Protoss, they are the entire reason that Barracks units are good past 10 minutes EMP requires a lot less skill and is nearly always guaranteed damage due to range and templar mobility I don't understand a couple of things about this statement: a) Prove it b) So? c) What's so hard about waiting for Templar to get into range? d) Everything's easier when you don't have to kite from chargelots Personally I kinda agree with IdrA on this one; Protoss players are just worse than the top of the top Terran/Zergs! Just because MC isn't winning GSL, Protoss players everywhere, like InControL/Tyler on SoTG and Naniwa on twitter think that their QQ is justified. There are aspects of the Protoss race that can be utilized to never die. With a good unit spread (pre concave) of chargelots/colossus/stalker/sentry + a small number of HT no opponent will want to attack into that. How many times do you see units being warped in from chronoed gateways as they die at 200/200? Never. You always see people watching the engagement, then scrolling back home and warping shit (30 food of shit, keep in mind) in. Have to watch the engagement? Can't go back home to macro? Bring a warp prism. If players were to warp in 30-40 food of chargelots from chronod warp gates as they died vs Terran in every game, I think more Protoss players would win. Right now, Protoss strategies evaporate past the third base. FXO_Soccer had some good ideas about how to play on 4-5 bases PvZ vs oGsCezanne in the GSTL (throwed down triple starport), but no one is arguing that he is the best Protoss in the world. Frankly, Protosses are playing in an isolated fog after they take there fourth base. They don't know what to do, and no one is telling them. There is no racial-imbalance-excuse for this, it's simply the way it is. So, start developing a Post High Templar/Colossus Transition. I want to clarify that I am not claiming the game is perfectly balanced, GM Korea shows a clear advantage to Terran players on the Ladder and there is more Terrans in the GSL. However, I think that if Terran players were to be frozen at their current skill level, within 6 months top Protoss players could take 80%+ of the PvTs against top Terrans (excluding 1/1/1s), but if they keep appealing to Blizzard they may not go anywhere. Protoss strategies have evolved the least since like 6 months ago. They found the 3 base deathball and they've stuck to it. Now similarly, Terrans have found the 2 base tank/marine push vs Zerg, however IMMVP shows how far the subtleties of the style have evolved with his pushing out at strange timings only to back off later and his sick SICK positioning vs STJuly on Metalopolis at the gold. He has that map SPLIT like a boss! Terrans have also found some strategies that they stick to quite a bit vs Protoss, but these strategies are balanced (excluding the 1/1/1). The strongest way to play Protoss at the moment is 2 gate robo expand -> fast colossus (not sure on gate # but fast) -> 2 base push & take a third -> 4 bases HT -> ??????? The question marks are probably mothership/void rays or mothership/carriers. I know that everyones gonna lol my face off, but I've had some decent opponents switch to carriers fer da lulz in practise and I don't know if you knew this but marauders can't shoot up and carriers have crazy long range/dps. Terans just don't want to admit that they got the best race. I play protoss because it's my style, but I feel so frustrated that the race is so unpolished. I mean come on, we have 2 units that are useless. I'll admit it, Terran is the best race. Anyone and everyone should play Terran. However this doesnt mean that I will beat Protoss every game. In fact, I lose to 2 base Colossus Protoss (and rage about 1A) way too often for me to be satisfied with my TvP, but I think Terran is easily the best designed race simply due to the insanely high skill ceiling that becomes apparent the moment the second marine comes out, but if a player wants to simply execute a build order and just fucking go for the win, then 2 base Colossus is probably the way to do it. No one wins any semi high level TvZs without some skill these days and 2 base Colossus PvT should get you at least to high diamond. | ||
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