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beute
Germany197 Posts
On September 08 2011 13:37 darkness wrote: Can we all agree that Protoss' late game is strong, but its mid (or early) game is weak? If yes, should it be fixed? I dont know if protoss late game is strong... by the time you get there you're so far behind that you cant judge it really. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
Do worker really need the light attribute? If all worker would be neither light nor armored (like the archon for example), they would not take any bonus damage at all. Thus hellions would be great scouts and great against light units, but wouldn't be the game changer any more. The only other unit affected would be the baneling, but I guess it's the same thing.. it would remove ZvZ volatility and take away the "one overlord with +2 banes eradicates the mineral line of 2 bases" phenomenon. | ||
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Joseph123
Bulgaria1144 Posts
On September 08 2011 13:37 darkness wrote: Can we all agree that Protoss' late game is strong, but its mid (or early) game is weak? If yes, should it be fixed? Well, of course the early game is weak, blizz nerfed all good 1 base strategies to the point they almost never work. Basically, to win in PvT and PvZ you need to have at least 2 bases. Protoss late game is strong, so is terran and zerg lategame? The difference is that protoss has 2 LATE game units that are useless and the other 2 races don't. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 08 2011 13:37 darkness wrote: Can we all agree that Protoss' late game is strong, but its mid (or early) game is weak? If yes, should it be fixed? Is this even true anymore? You see Mass Ghost late game roll Protoss all the time these days, I can count more games where a Terran has won in the late game in recent tournaments than a Protoss.. | ||
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On September 08 2011 17:22 Joseph123 wrote: Well, of course the early game is weak, blizz nerfed all good 1 base strategies to the point they almost never work. Basically, to win in PvT and PvZ you need to have at least 2 bases. Protoss late game is strong, so is terran and zerg lategame? The difference is that protoss has 2 LATE game units that are useless and the other 2 races don't. Whereas Zerg needs at least 3 bases to win in ZvT or ZvP, and if don't make a huge mistake in early game ZvZ, it's all about who gets a third running safely, first. And that's not a bad thing if Blizz is nerfing 1 base strats. There's also still DT rushes, stargate rushes, and 4 gate, 5 gate, 2 gate, and cannon rushing. Most Protoss don't do these rushes, but instead of a FE (which makes it a minute longer at least), but Zerg has a pretty hard time in regards to scouting such 1 base play. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
First off, you're free to correct me if I'm wrong as I'm only diamond at 1vs1. My opinion is mostly based on watching major tournaments such as Dreamhack, IEM, GSL, NASL, etc. I don't want to claim anything is imba. Instead, I claim some things are poorly designed. EMP and ghosts Not only is it researched by default, it is an instant spell that is AoE which also means you can hit a large group of protoss' army without any chance to dodge it. What seems wrong is EMP having longer range than Feedback, so you can be easily outranged if Terran controls ghosts well enough. If ghosts run out of energy, they still do damage. If HTs run out of energy in the middle of the battle, by the time morphing is complete, it's often too late to do additional damage. The only case it can help is when both players have only a few units in the battlefield. I think ghosts are designed badly because they're so much better than HTs and they're the ultimate anti protoss weapon. A single of these guys forces protoss to spread units, but it's easier to dodge storm if you just don't sit under it. Vikings If you watched JYP vs Taeja @ GSL today, you probably noticed how a single viking shut down JYP's drop. While Protoss has to do things such as investing in blink, knowing terran will try to drop, having a few stalkers to stop a medivac drop, terran needs to have just one unit on patrol. It feels wrong to me because it needs a lot less preparation and it's cheaper than protoss' anti drop play. Mules If terran's orbital commands have high energy, he can easily drop mules which doesn't punish bad players unlike zerg's larva injects. I DON'T mean above mentioned things are imba, it just feels like poor design imho. | ||
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Joseph123
Bulgaria1144 Posts
On September 08 2011 18:42 Belial88 wrote: Whereas Zerg needs at least 3 bases to win in ZvT or ZvP, and if don't make a huge mistake in early game ZvZ, it's all about who gets a third running safely, first. And that's not a bad thing if Blizz is nerfing 1 base strats. There's also still DT rushes, stargate rushes, and 4 gate, 5 gate, 2 gate, and cannon rushing. Most Protoss don't do these rushes, but instead of a FE (which makes it a minute longer at least), but Zerg has a pretty hard time in regards to scouting such 1 base play. Of course protoss still do that, but expand after that. Have you seen stargate or dt 1 base allin? I haven't. There is a youtube clip that shows you how to defend vs cannon rush, so now you can even go 15 hatch, funny, isn't it? 2 gate vs zerg? 5 gate can win of course, but not if zerg scouts and reacts accordingly. Zerg doesn't need to be 3 base to win vs 2 base P. You are free to watch recent 2 base ling infestor play and comment afterwords. | ||
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oni_link
Germany165 Posts
On September 08 2011 21:01 darkness wrote: Vikings If you watched JYP vs Taeja @ GSL today, you probably noticed how a single viking shut down JYP's drop. While Protoss has to do things such as investing in blink, knowing terran will try to drop, having a few stalkers to stop a medivac drop, terran needs to have just one unit on patrol. It feels wrong to me because it needs a lot less preparation and it's cheaper than protoss' anti drop play.. this is not true, jyp did great with the initially fast warp prism speed and the intention of attacking both mineral lines at the same time,but he horribly messed up by not microing his drop(shift queuing, he shot the oc to 50% with his immortal instead of doing sth useful with it) and retreaing too late with his warp prism, the streght of it relies on dropping->retreating->filling it up again and fly in again do drop more shit. speed wp outruns everything except phoenix and mutas, so he definetely lacked control of his warp prism against 1 viking lol. finally jyp threw away the game by not expanding, but instead add 3 more warpgates when he had 2 mineral patches left | ||
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ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
On September 08 2011 17:25 Dommk wrote: Is this even true anymore? You see Mass Ghost late game roll Protoss all the time these days, I can count more games where a Terran has won in the late game in recent tournaments than a Protoss.. I don't see why that surprises anyone. The lategame was reasonably well balanced with 150/150 Ghosts and Amulet Templars (there was like one month where Protoss got over 55% winrate in GSL in PvT), now we have 200/100 Ghosts and no amulet templars. Which is why nearly all PvT lategame wins are by switching to Colossi with the Terran not building vikings fast enough. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On September 08 2011 18:42 Belial88 wrote: Whereas Zerg needs at least 3 bases to win in ZvT or ZvP, and if don't make a huge mistake in early game ZvZ, it's all about who gets a third running safely, first. And that's not a bad thing if Blizz is nerfing 1 base strats. There's also still DT rushes, stargate rushes, and 4 gate, 5 gate, 2 gate, and cannon rushing. Most Protoss don't do these rushes, but instead of a FE (which makes it a minute longer at least), but Zerg has a pretty hard time in regards to scouting such 1 base play. Are you trolling or you just don't play this game at all? Half the PvZ ladder games a few months ago were speedling roach or 7 roach rushes. Even 6pool wins you more than 50% games. Just check July's last games for more examples. Anyway... With today's Up&Down games I would like to know the code S race distribution. I feel it's not gonna be too balanced. | ||
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Hamp
Norway100 Posts
7 - Zerg - 21.9% 5 - Protoss - 15.6% | ||
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oni_link
Germany165 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:12 SenorChang wrote: (Vague Up/down spoilers) + Show Spoiler + Code S race distribution 20 - Terran - 62.5% 7 - Zerg - 21.9% 5 - Protoss - 15.6% thats not balanced at all but you must consider that a maximum of 8(if im right) players can rotate from code a to code s per season, so this is not a thing that came up just in the last month. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:15 Hamp wrote: 20 - Terran - 62.5% 7 - Zerg - 21.9% 5 - Protoss - 15.6% And SlayerS_Alicia with tweeting Terrancraft 2 lol  | ||
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pAzand
Sweden539 Posts
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bittman
Australia8759 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:15 Hamp wrote: 20 - Terran - 62.5% 7 - Zerg - 21.9% 5 - Protoss - 15.6% So a lot of Korea's best players chose Terran. This isn't naturally indicative of Terran, but simply that strong players in Korea are terran. If Nestea, MVP, DRG, MMA, HuK, PuMa, Boxer and MC and all the other top tier Koreans were Zerg, then the numbers would easily skew in Zerg's favour. Whether as homage to players like Boxer, Nada and Flash from BW, or whether just picked out of a hat, a lot of the better Korean players are Terran. I mean, honestly how many progamers have dedicated a large amount of time into working out how each race works and what they work best with over time? Most give each race a quick whirl early on, then pick one to properly learn. Occasionally they might race switch on ladders, but even then their knowledge of chosen race is so far ahead they would rarely put themselves behind competitively in the hopes that they will eventually surpass their previous selves in a new race. That said, I do think Terran has a lot of advantages, but I don't like the make up for a tournament being used as justification that the balance might be off. Even after patch 1.4 and another 3-6 months of GSL with further patches, I doubt you'll see the terran numbers radically fall. Heck, and that's a short estimate. If terran numbers for Code S GSL ever fall below 50% participation I'll be shocked. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:14 Salteador Neo wrote: Are you trolling or you just don't play this game at all? Half the PvZ ladder games a few months ago were speedling roach or 7 roach rushes. Even 6pool wins you more than 50% games. Just check July's last games for more examples. Anyway... With today's Up&Down games I would like to know the code S race distribution. I feel it's not gonna be too balanced. yes. Few month ago. Until protoss realized forcefields are good for more then just force fielding ramps during a 4 gate. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:29 bittman wrote: So a lot of Korea's best players chose Terran. This isn't naturally indicative of Terran, but simply that strong players in Korea are terran. If Nestea, MVP, DRG, MMA, HuK, PuMa, Boxer and MC and all the other top tier Koreans were Zerg, then the numbers would easily skew in Zerg's favour. Whether as homage to players like Boxer, Nada and Flash from BW, or whether just picked out of a hat, a lot of the better Korean players are Terran. You confuse cause and effect. The reason it seems that strong players in korea are terran is because terran are strong. And at this point because if there is anyone converting there is absolutely no point to choose any other race. | ||
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cordlc
United States360 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:24 pAzand wrote: I think Blizz has to try out Amulet again.. Game wasn't even imba then and now Terran and Zergs are starting to use their casters, guess what, they're pretty damn strong. The problem with Khaydarin Amulet isn't whether or not it'd balance the game, it's that the design is stupid. Warp-in storms were retarded, whether the game was balanced with it or not. The problem is they never compensated for it. Fix other areas of the game, and when Protoss is back to feeling balanced, the KA change won't be brought up again. | ||
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pAzand
Sweden539 Posts
On September 08 2011 22:34 cordlc wrote: The problem with Khaydarin Amulet isn't whether or not it'd balance the game, it's that the design is stupid. Warp-in storms were retarded, whether the game was balanced with it or not. The problem is they never compensated for it. Fix other areas of the game, and when Protoss is back to feeling balanced, the KA change won't be brought up again. Get them of the gateway, make them rally from the archive two at a time and get them a speedbuff :D | ||
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