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On September 16 2013 16:16 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 15:37 NarutO wrote:On September 16 2013 15:30 Grumbels wrote:
Bomber loses versus two rushes by Soo and he's slumping. Hyun loses 2-1 to ForGG and he performs 'way below his level'. And apparently Jaedong, sOs, Life, Hyun can hardly be expected to beat MMA and Supernova? HyuN lost 1-2 to forGG who used to have and I would dare say still has very bad Terran vs Zerg. Its by far his worst match up and he states so over and over again. While Hyun doesn't have great success against forGG, he can go toe to toe with TaeJa, Polt etc. He took down better Terrans on a regular fashion thats why I am saying he performed below his level. For that guy that said Bomber is slumping, yeah I disagree as well. Jaedong, sOs and HyuN can be expected to beat SuperNoVa/MMA, but Jaedong is shaky in ZvT and also I don't see why you would bring that up, he lost to sOs. sOs also beat SuperNoVa 2-0 for seeding and his series against TaeJa was rather not telling the story. Life won vs SuperNoVa and lost to TaeJa and I dare to say, Life really didn't look too sharp in his series vs TaeJa. People simply are saying the Terran lineup was better compared to P/Z and the real good players vs Terran were not present or at least not present in numbers as high as good Terran players. MMA, ForGG, Supernova are not better than Jaedong, sOs, Hero, Hyun, Life. Maybe Taeja and Innovation are, but it's not 'simply' the case that terran was always going to dominate this tournament.
Did you read what I wrote? I even said, that HyuN should have won vs forGG, but he did not because he played poorly. Jaedong went out to sOs who went out to Taeja because in that series (at least game 2) he played poorly. You could argue his execution of the scouted allin wasn't perfect as well.
Generally speaking I would dare to say SuperNoVa / MMA are favoured against Jaedong, because their TvZ is known as very strong while Jaedong seems to be shaky. He can play well (he is 5-0 vs TaeJa so he seems to have his number) but in that particular match up he is not favoured.
You can repeat yourself all you want , but the point is that the vs P and vs Z players present from Terran are superior (INnoVation best TvZ and TvP I dare to say, TaeJa very good vs Zerg and a bit behind or even with INnoVations TvP I would say (personal opinion)). SuperNoVa is very good vs Protoss as well as MMA is on fire and good vs Z/P.
sOs is not known as a Terran slayer (yet he beat SuperNoVa 2-0), neither is Jaedong. HerO is overall solid but he ran into INnoVation. All people is saying is that the Terran lineup was stronger compared to Z/P especially in the TvX match up which is more than true.
I already named players from Z/P that are known for their skills against Terran. PartinG, Squirtle, Rain, DRG, SoulKey, hyvaa, soO are all excellent vs Terran and were not present.
Edit: Also simply hinting Terran is imbalanced when it was the first TvT final since a year is.... simply wow.
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On September 16 2013 16:16 ejozl wrote:
Terran units have much higher dps and lower amounts of hp, where Protoss is reverse.
So while it might be a balanced fight w/o any scv's/probes to tank having extra meat shield as Terran is much more worthwhile.
exactly. Even if you pull probes and get the perfect surface area with them (despite zealots being there too) what happens is just that after 2seconds of combat all the probes are gone while half of the SCVs are still buffering.
Of course it helps a little, but is it worthwhile? There are also a lot of other dynamics apart from that
- SCVs triggering Zealots to charge which means they don't charge on the bio afterwards
- storms being counterproductive when combined with melee units; something that zealots don't care as much about, but probes...
- Protoss being able (and having) to spend more money on reinforcements, therefore profiting more (and needing) more mining during the combat
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You're being really dramatic. I'm just tired of this need the community has to explain and justify every result. Terran did well, so since we want to avoid balance talk, it has to be that terran was much better represented (dubious outside of taeja/innovation). Why do we have to justify every result? It might just be due to random, inconsequential factors.
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Austria24422 Posts
So, SCV pulls. If we assume for a second that they're too strong - I'm not saying they are - how would we go about possibly making them weaker without taking the only super powerful TvP timing away from terran?
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On September 16 2013 16:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:
So, SCV pulls. If we assume for a second that they're too strong - I'm not saying they are - how would we go about possibly making them weaker without taking the only super powerful TvP timing away from terran?
The reason they are strong is Protoss is being greedy. Usually 3-3 is on the way for Protoss (or at least one upgrade +3 armor or attack). Terran already puts Ghost to depower sentries or help vs Templars. Super did show how to smack down scv-pulls and certainly you could cancel the upgrade and get a few more sentries or simply get more colossi.
Elfi against INnoVation on Akilon was terrible by elfi, a good Protoss would have held that allin with the templars available + the over-gas... and especially considering how terrible of a job he did against the earlier drops. Scv pulls are allin at the timing right before 3-3/Protoss enters lategame and its only that strong, because due to the MSC Protoss feels the need to enter lategame at 13'30 instead of actually playing a bit more safe and/or getting units early to completely change dynamic of the match up.
Also to Dreamhack scv pulls
INnoVation vs elfi
-> INnoVation is a thousand times better than elfi and even without an scv pull he would have won handily. Actually the scv pull made the game closer on Akilon.
INnoVation vs HerO:
Akilon HerO was dead before the scv pull. 2 base colossus allin held off by INnoVation easily , after that he decided to pull to finish. No suprise there.
I cannot recall the Neo Planet S game as well, only remember oracle not dealing tons of damage and that it was a 5 rax allin
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I agree with Naruto, I also think that the terrans might be out-metagaming their protoss opponents with the scv pull.
At least last weekend, whenever the scv pull won it was either because the protoss was already behind from the early game or the protoss had a lot of unfinished upgrades qeued up.
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Austria24422 Posts
The thing that keeps me worried is if you play like Super and go mass stalker/colossus, possibly delaying 3-3, doesn't that just leave you with a timer on your army if terran doesn't attack with the SCV pull timing? Sure terran will be an upgrade or two behind but the army composition will continuously start to favor terran with Ghosts already in the mix against a heavily delayed templar switch, the viking count rising steadily and marauder numbers increasing? I feel like you couldn't really break terran with that army and you'd find yourself rather weak the longer the game goes longer and you're sitting on something like 22 stalkers.
Yeah HerO vs Innovation game 2 was HerO going oracle and using it pretty well even though he didn't get a ton of worker kills. He kept Innovation in his base with it and delayed the factory twice I think. The thing is that he also went phoenixes as a followup which did close to nothing and then got caught out of position when the SCV pull came. I don't think it was meant to be a 5 rax all in but HerO got the 3rd CC cancelled and Innovation just went for it. HerO could've held if he'd managed to buy more time with phoenixes I guess.
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I really don't want to be a prick, but you can scout... would at least be my suggestion? Here some infos
On September 14 2013 07:53 Lock0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 05:24 ff7legend wrote:
Does anyone have any insight on the SCV pull thats popular in TvP? I've been seeing it alot agains collosus and even a few times against HT. What timing are you trying to hit, when do you know when its ok to go? What are you scouting for exactly to know when it ok to do? Is There a follow up to it if it doesnt kill them ( I'm assuming if they hold you're dead anyways but you never know)? I usually see alot of terran hitting with 2-3 ghosts, when are they throwing down the ghost academy? is it always a neccesisty to get a ghost academy when doing this pull against just collosus? And last question i have is should i focus on kill their army or just denying bases? To keep things simple, in a standard game, Terran gets a 3rd base at around 10 minutes at the standard stim/medivac push. This forces the protoss to make collosus to survive, and means the protoss needs to take a 3rd by 11/12 minutes to avoid falling behind. This normally leaves a window in which Terran has a SCV all in timing between 13-15 minutes with around 4 medivacs and 6-10 vikings, where Terran should be 30 or so supply ahead. With perfect macro and no losses, it's possible to max at 14 minutes and in an ideal world hit before storm. Adding 1 round of ghosts (3 techlabs) into the composition means that even if the opponent went 2 collosus into high templar, you can outmicro and emp their templars. If they do not have any templar, you can emp their sentries. The two main ways a Protoss holds a scv all in is either to have perfect forcefields with collosus doing aoe, or good storms. To get ghosts in time, you need an earlier 4th gas (a standard build only requires 3 gas before 3rd), and you get the ghost academy at around 11 minutes - as gas allows without sacrificing medivac timing. Getting ghosts means you need to hit at 1/1 upgrades (no armory) instead of 2/1 upgrades without ghosts. If the protoss delays their tech by committing to either stargate/early blink/mass gateway/DT/immortals or gets greedy with early third (before 9 mins), then Terran can go for a 2 base SCV all in hitting at 12-13 minutes instead of a 3 base all in.
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I don't see the connection between what DLO said and what N said.
Edit: nvm. Thanks NarutO.
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On September 16 2013 17:21 Ghanburighan wrote:
I don't see the connection between what DLO said and what N said.
Edit: nvm. Thanks NarutO.
Sorry I was slow searching that post :D lol
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Austria24422 Posts
Wouldn't it be possible to just continue upgrading and not hit the SCV pull timing? I feel like if you scout a delayed templar switch or delayed upgrades you could defend with good defensive positioning and an increasingly superior unit composition even though your upgrades will be behind.
I mean you're far better at the game than I am so I'll trust your judgement on this. If you tell me that there's no way around the SCV pull once the build is initiated and all protoss has to do is scout it in time and get the right unit composition up then I'll believe you. I just feel like what gives so many protoss players trouble with it is that terran doesn't necessarily have to do it so if you overcommit on defence you'd suddenly fall behind if terran doesn't do it after all. That would explain why nobody throws up cannons to defend it.
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On September 16 2013 17:02 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 16:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:
So, SCV pulls. If we assume for a second that they're too strong - I'm not saying they are - how would we go about possibly making them weaker without taking the only super powerful TvP timing away from terran? The reason they are strong is Protoss is being greedy. Usually 3-3 is on the way for Protoss (or at least one upgrade +3 armor or attack). Terran already puts Ghost to depower sentries or help vs Templars. Super did show how to smack down scv-pulls and certainly you could cancel the upgrade and get a few more sentries or simply get more colossi. Elfi against INnoVation on Akilon was terrible by elfi, a good Protoss would have held that allin with the templars available + the over-gas... and especially considering how terrible of a job he did against the earlier drops. Scv pulls are allin at the timing right before 3-3/Protoss enters lategame and its only that strong, because due to the MSC Protoss feels the need to enter lategame at 13'30 instead of actually playing a bit more safe and/or getting units early to completely change dynamic of the match up. Also to Dreamhack scv pulls INnoVation vs elfi -> INnoVation is a thousand times better than elfi and even without an scv pull he would have won handily. Actually the scv pull made the game closer on Akilon. INnoVation vs HerO: Akilon HerO was dead before the scv pull. 2 base colossus allin held off by INnoVation easily , after that he decided to pull to finish. No suprise there. I cannot recall the Neo Planet S game as well, only remember oracle not dealing tons of damage and that it was a 5 rax allin
And Innovation wasn't playing greedy? He had 3 bases to Toss' 2 and only recently cut on workers. It's just stupid how greedy and aggressive some races can be at certain phases of he game. Kind of violates the whole tradeoff equilibrium necessary for a strategy game. There's pretty much no getting around Terran pulling ahead in macro on equal bases, and no standard way to punish that. Seems like greed in general needs to be nerfed.
If indicated, SCVs hp buff is the most OP of the basic racials. The others have been phased out of use while the quality of life improvement of more hp is apparent. However, the pulls are just a symptom of the imbalanced macro mechanics, which might need revisiting in LotV.
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You don't want to say you cannot punish a greedy build by Terran, do you?
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in the recently closed "flame bait thread"...
seriously, david kim needs to cleanse his sins...
the only way for him to be saved is to "die" (retire)...
so much for the "death is the true salvation..."
wtf on the "sc2 needs to die faster" article...
User was warned for this post
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"If sc2 dies fast blizzard will do smth" is kinda lame theory. The game will just die and thats it. Its outcry of desperate community. As for me, i'd be glad if game died sooner. Lets be honest it doesnt deserve attention its getting now. Didn't follow dh, and from what heard it wasnt entertaining either.
User was warned for this post
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Austria24422 Posts
On September 17 2013 00:29 saddaromma wrote:
"If sc2 dies fast blizzard will do smth" is kinda lame theory. The game will just die and thats it. Its outcry of desperate community. As for me, i'd be glad if game died sooner. Lets be honest it doesnt deserve attention its getting now. Didn't follow dh, and from what heard it wasnt entertaining either.
It was entertaining as hell. Please don't bring that attitude to an SC2 forum if you don't care about the game.
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On September 17 2013 00:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 00:29 saddaromma wrote:
"If sc2 dies fast blizzard will do smth" is kinda lame theory. The game will just die and thats it. Its outcry of desperate community. As for me, i'd be glad if game died sooner. Lets be honest it doesnt deserve attention its getting now. Didn't follow dh, and from what heard it wasnt entertaining either. It was entertaining as hell. Please don't bring that attitude to an SC2 forum if you don't care about the game.
Lots of people think it was boring.
And since when sc2 haters are not allowed to post here?
I care about StarCraft but I don't like sc2. Forum is not about only supporting the game, you can express whatever you want as long as it compells general behavior.
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On September 17 2013 00:47 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 00:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:On September 17 2013 00:29 saddaromma wrote:
"If sc2 dies fast blizzard will do smth" is kinda lame theory. The game will just die and thats it. Its outcry of desperate community. As for me, i'd be glad if game died sooner. Lets be honest it doesnt deserve attention its getting now. Didn't follow dh, and from what heard it wasnt entertaining either. It was entertaining as hell. Please don't bring that attitude to an SC2 forum if you don't care about the game. Lots of people think it was boring. And since when sc2 haters are not allowed to post here? I care about StarCraft but I don't like sc2. Forum is not about only supporting the game, you can express whatever you want as long as it compells general behavior.
Interesting, Perhaps you should make a blog. For now I suggest keeping the topic on game balance as opposed to just hating on sc2.
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On September 17 2013 00:47 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 00:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:On September 17 2013 00:29 saddaromma wrote:
"If sc2 dies fast blizzard will do smth" is kinda lame theory. The game will just die and thats it. Its outcry of desperate community. As for me, i'd be glad if game died sooner. Lets be honest it doesnt deserve attention its getting now. Didn't follow dh, and from what heard it wasnt entertaining either. It was entertaining as hell. Please don't bring that attitude to an SC2 forum if you don't care about the game. Lots of people think it was boring. And since when sc2 haters are not allowed to post here? I care about StarCraft but I don't like sc2. Forum is not about only supporting the game, you can express whatever you want as long as it compells general behavior.
why are you even in SC2 thread just to say you want the game to die soon.
this is designated balance thread, not a say what you want about sc2 thread
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On September 17 2013 00:59 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 00:47 saddaromma wrote:On September 17 2013 00:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:On September 17 2013 00:29 saddaromma wrote:
"If sc2 dies fast blizzard will do smth" is kinda lame theory. The game will just die and thats it. Its outcry of desperate community. As for me, i'd be glad if game died sooner. Lets be honest it doesnt deserve attention its getting now. Didn't follow dh, and from what heard it wasnt entertaining either. It was entertaining as hell. Please don't bring that attitude to an SC2 forum if you don't care about the game. Lots of people think it was boring. And since when sc2 haters are not allowed to post here? I care about StarCraft but I don't like sc2. Forum is not about only supporting the game, you can express whatever you want as long as it compells general behavior. why are you even in SC2 thread just to say you want the game to die soon. this is designated balance thread, not a say what you want about sc2 thread
He was responding to someone in this thread, and didn't introduce this topic. You guys are blaming him because you don't like his opinion.
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EPT
