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In regards to the decline in viewership and participation, it's not just balance issues. They (the powers that be in the SC2 pro scene) need to look at casting a larger net. For example, why is everything 1v1, except for the odd "for shits and giggles" team game? I know team games and players are looked down upon by 1v1'ers but by neglecting the team scene, you are neglecting probably the vast majority of SC2 players.
Take the hint. DOTA and LOL are team games. They don't require the level of skill demanded by SC2 1v1. Guess what else doesn't require as much skill as SC2 1v1? That's right, SC2 team play. It's just another way in which elitism is and will continue to kill SC2. You have to appeal to the lowest common denominator if you want the mass audience. It isn't rocket science, it really isn't. Start incorporating some high level, seriously competitive team sections into the pro sc2 tournaments and watch the viewership rise. All of a sudden joe "i can't break 60 APM" average is watching something he plays and enjoys and hey, maybe he can be an elite team player too!
I feel what you are saying is quite off topic but regardless: the game's multiplayer simply is not balanced to support team games. In multiplayer games there are far too many variables that affect the game that could create a stable meta game for team play, especially when it gets into 3v3 and 4v4 modes where there is the possibility to have for example all three races, or just 1 race for example. Some strategies would simply be too strong and blizzard would have to redesign the game according to whichever game mode is being played. It is just simply inconceivable to achieve true competitive play in a team environment in such a high variable game.
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On September 16 2013 11:00 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 10:02 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 09:55 -_- wrote:
So, any thoughts on balance after Dreamhack? Clearly, Terran did well, with 3 of the last 4 players being Terran, but numbers don't always tell the whole story.
How is TvP? Is the fearsome 2/3 base MMMV SCV pull a result of Protoss dominance late game? Regardless, is it still too strong?
What about TvZ? Is MMMM too cost effective? Or have Zergs adapted.
Any thoughts on ZvP? Personally I can't think of any balance complaints. here's what i wonder about TvP SCV pull... if terran decides to sacrifice ~30 SCVs, i believe protoss too should pull a similar amount of probes. but the only one who did it was elfi. could this possibly be the answer? it's such an obvious thing. have protosses tried it and it didnt work? It has to do with ranged versus melee. If Protoss pulls Probes, then probes would block Zealots from attacking. On the other hand, when Terran Pulls SCVs, they block Zealots from attacking (and sock up ranged shots), while Marines and Marauders bang away. Also, of course, SCVs are less important to Terran than Probes are to Protoss. In fact, generally, if Terran is within 5 SCVs of a Toss' probe count, he's economically ahead. Mules allow a Terran to run "on fumes" and keep up production (with no investment in infrastructure) even when the SCVs are pulled. I'm confident saying that in nearly every case proactively pulling probes to defend would be a bad play. I personally think forcefielding a chunk of SCVs and units in (on a ramp, for example), then having enough stalkers to effectively kill them without losing Colossus to Vikings is the key.
you could wait till most zealots are dead till you bring probes into the fight. or have probes behind zealots, just to soak up damage. just throwing ideas into the room. (i like the 2nd one the most. sounds really solid to me)
i know mules mean that terran needs less SCVs, but assume T has 55 SCVs and pulls 25 while protoss has 70 probes and pulls 25, the eco should still be even.
i personally think that not pulling probes is bad play and the reason why SCV pull is so strong, but i'm not sure. your arguments didnt convince me though.
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On September 16 2013 11:34 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 11:00 -_- wrote:On September 16 2013 10:02 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 09:55 -_- wrote:
So, any thoughts on balance after Dreamhack? Clearly, Terran did well, with 3 of the last 4 players being Terran, but numbers don't always tell the whole story.
How is TvP? Is the fearsome 2/3 base MMMV SCV pull a result of Protoss dominance late game? Regardless, is it still too strong?
What about TvZ? Is MMMM too cost effective? Or have Zergs adapted.
Any thoughts on ZvP? Personally I can't think of any balance complaints. here's what i wonder about TvP SCV pull... if terran decides to sacrifice ~30 SCVs, i believe protoss too should pull a similar amount of probes. but the only one who did it was elfi. could this possibly be the answer? it's such an obvious thing. have protosses tried it and it didnt work? It has to do with ranged versus melee. If Protoss pulls Probes, then probes would block Zealots from attacking. On the other hand, when Terran Pulls SCVs, they block Zealots from attacking (and sock up ranged shots), while Marines and Marauders bang away. Also, of course, SCVs are less important to Terran than Probes are to Protoss. In fact, generally, if Terran is within 5 SCVs of a Toss' probe count, he's economically ahead. Mules allow a Terran to run "on fumes" and keep up production (with no investment in infrastructure) even when the SCVs are pulled. I'm confident saying that in nearly every case proactively pulling probes to defend would be a bad play. I personally think forcefielding a chunk of SCVs and units in (on a ramp, for example), then having enough stalkers to effectively kill them without losing Colossus to Vikings is the key. you could wait till most zealots are dead till you bring probes into the fight. or have probes behind zealots, just to soak up damage. just throwing ideas into the room. i know mules mean that terran needs less SCVs, but assume T has 55 SCVs and pulls 25 while protoss has 70 probes and pulls 25, the eco should still be even. i personally think that not pulling probes is bad play and the reason why SCV pull is so strong, but i'm not sure. 
The problem is even pros and mods feel pulling probes is bad because there's warp-in available and Terranhave mules to offset the sac. Which are both true, however, if you have to sac some probes ANYWAY to free up supply, why not integrate it into a stalker/colossi push (assuming you have enough observer vision to not run them blindly into a mine line).
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On September 16 2013 11:13 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 11:00 -_- wrote:On September 16 2013 10:02 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 09:55 -_- wrote:
So, any thoughts on balance after Dreamhack? Clearly, Terran did well, with 3 of the last 4 players being Terran, but numbers don't always tell the whole story.
How is TvP? Is the fearsome 2/3 base MMMV SCV pull a result of Protoss dominance late game? Regardless, is it still too strong?
What about TvZ? Is MMMM too cost effective? Or have Zergs adapted.
Any thoughts on ZvP? Personally I can't think of any balance complaints. here's what i wonder about TvP SCV pull... if terran decides to sacrifice ~30 SCVs, i believe protoss too should pull a similar amount of probes. but the only one who did it was elfi. could this possibly be the answer? it's such an obvious thing. have protosses tried it and it didnt work? It has to do with ranged versus melee. If Protoss pulls Probes, then probes would block Zealots from attacking. On the other hand, when Terran Pulls SCVs, they block Zealots from attacking (and sock up ranged shots), while Marines and Marauders bang away. Also, of course, SCVs are less important to Terran than Probes are to Protoss. In fact, generally, if Terran is within 5 SCVs of a Toss' probe count, he's economically ahead. Mules allow a Terran to run "on fumes" and keep up production (with no investment in infrastructure) even when the SCVs are pulled. I'm confident saying that in nearly every case proactively pulling probes to defend would be a bad play. I personally think forcefielding a chunk of SCVs and units in (on a ramp, for example), then having enough stalkers to effectively kill them without losing Colossus to Vikings is the key. Here's an idea, You could probe pull with ranged units behind them, like colossi or stalkers, even more awesome, why not both!!! 0/2/2 probes believe it or not, will take forever to kill, especially with a colossi/stalker death ball behind it. Why do it? Simple, you don't need 90 probes after 40min and the main and natural is mined out. Of course this would only work if you didn't blindly run them into a siege line or widow mine line. Terrans don't do a SCV pull either when there are critical no. Of colossi out so please stop calling or implying they are in some way imba.
Honestly, have you played PvT? 0/2/2 probes believe it or not will take one second to kill. You can see them very similar to same amount of lings without speed and can't attack. The reason to pull SCVs is that protoss units have high damage output but low attack rates. If those SCVs soak up 3~4 round of colossus volleys terran will win the battle. Its all about time. So when you have like 5 colossus maybe on volley can clean up most of SCVs. Think about why not pulling them in TvZ? Because ling-bane kill them very quickly and not lose too many time and firepower.
After 40 minutes, well people already did that, to free up some supply.
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On September 16 2013 11:42 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 11:34 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 11:00 -_- wrote:On September 16 2013 10:02 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 09:55 -_- wrote:
So, any thoughts on balance after Dreamhack? Clearly, Terran did well, with 3 of the last 4 players being Terran, but numbers don't always tell the whole story.
How is TvP? Is the fearsome 2/3 base MMMV SCV pull a result of Protoss dominance late game? Regardless, is it still too strong?
What about TvZ? Is MMMM too cost effective? Or have Zergs adapted.
Any thoughts on ZvP? Personally I can't think of any balance complaints. here's what i wonder about TvP SCV pull... if terran decides to sacrifice ~30 SCVs, i believe protoss too should pull a similar amount of probes. but the only one who did it was elfi. could this possibly be the answer? it's such an obvious thing. have protosses tried it and it didnt work? It has to do with ranged versus melee. If Protoss pulls Probes, then probes would block Zealots from attacking. On the other hand, when Terran Pulls SCVs, they block Zealots from attacking (and sock up ranged shots), while Marines and Marauders bang away. Also, of course, SCVs are less important to Terran than Probes are to Protoss. In fact, generally, if Terran is within 5 SCVs of a Toss' probe count, he's economically ahead. Mules allow a Terran to run "on fumes" and keep up production (with no investment in infrastructure) even when the SCVs are pulled. I'm confident saying that in nearly every case proactively pulling probes to defend would be a bad play. I personally think forcefielding a chunk of SCVs and units in (on a ramp, for example), then having enough stalkers to effectively kill them without losing Colossus to Vikings is the key. you could wait till most zealots are dead till you bring probes into the fight. or have probes behind zealots, just to soak up damage. just throwing ideas into the room. i know mules mean that terran needs less SCVs, but assume T has 55 SCVs and pulls 25 while protoss has 70 probes and pulls 25, the eco should still be even. i personally think that not pulling probes is bad play and the reason why SCV pull is so strong, but i'm not sure. The problem is even pros and mods feel pulling probes is bad because there's warp-in available and Terranhave mules to offset the sac. Which are both true, however, if you have to sac some probes ANYWAY to free up supply, why not integrate it into a stalker/colossi push (assuming you have enough observer vision to not run them blindly into a mine line).
i actually do that as terran sometimes, once i have 5+ extra OCs. i think it's pretty good.
i dont get why warpin makes pulling probes worse. and i already explained why mules dont necessarily mean that pulling probes will leave you behind in eco. ("assume T has 55 SCVs and pulls 25 while protoss has 70 probes and pulls 25, the eco should still be even")
yea, i realize pros dont do it. i just dont understand it.
On September 16 2013 11:46 Taro134 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 11:13 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On September 16 2013 11:00 -_- wrote:On September 16 2013 10:02 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 09:55 -_- wrote:
So, any thoughts on balance after Dreamhack? Clearly, Terran did well, with 3 of the last 4 players being Terran, but numbers don't always tell the whole story.
How is TvP? Is the fearsome 2/3 base MMMV SCV pull a result of Protoss dominance late game? Regardless, is it still too strong?
What about TvZ? Is MMMM too cost effective? Or have Zergs adapted.
Any thoughts on ZvP? Personally I can't think of any balance complaints. here's what i wonder about TvP SCV pull... if terran decides to sacrifice ~30 SCVs, i believe protoss too should pull a similar amount of probes. but the only one who did it was elfi. could this possibly be the answer? it's such an obvious thing. have protosses tried it and it didnt work? It has to do with ranged versus melee. If Protoss pulls Probes, then probes would block Zealots from attacking. On the other hand, when Terran Pulls SCVs, they block Zealots from attacking (and sock up ranged shots), while Marines and Marauders bang away. Also, of course, SCVs are less important to Terran than Probes are to Protoss. In fact, generally, if Terran is within 5 SCVs of a Toss' probe count, he's economically ahead. Mules allow a Terran to run "on fumes" and keep up production (with no investment in infrastructure) even when the SCVs are pulled. I'm confident saying that in nearly every case proactively pulling probes to defend would be a bad play. I personally think forcefielding a chunk of SCVs and units in (on a ramp, for example), then having enough stalkers to effectively kill them without losing Colossus to Vikings is the key. Here's an idea, You could probe pull with ranged units behind them, like colossi or stalkers, even more awesome, why not both!!! 0/2/2 probes believe it or not, will take forever to kill, especially with a colossi/stalker death ball behind it. Why do it? Simple, you don't need 90 probes after 40min and the main and natural is mined out. Of course this would only work if you didn't blindly run them into a siege line or widow mine line. Terrans don't do a SCV pull either when there are critical no. Of colossi out so please stop calling or implying they are in some way imba. Honestly, have you played PvT? 0/2/2 probes believe it or not will take one second to kill. You can see them very similar to same amount of lings without speed and can't attack. The reason to pull SCVs is that protoss units have high damage output but low attack rates. If those SCVs soak up 3~4 round of colossus volleys terran will win the battle. Its all about time. So when you have like 5 colossus maybe on volley can clean up most of SCVs. Think about why not pulling them in TvZ? Because ling-bane kill them very quickly and not lose too many time and firepower. After 40 minutes, well people already did that, to free up some supply.
i see what you're saying. but still the probes would soak up damage to soften up the terran's attack. if you'd pull just the right amount of probes to not fall behind in eco they would undoubtedly help your defense.
sounds better than just dying to every single SCV pull, imho.
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On September 16 2013 11:34 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 11:00 -_- wrote:On September 16 2013 10:02 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 09:55 -_- wrote:
So, any thoughts on balance after Dreamhack? Clearly, Terran did well, with 3 of the last 4 players being Terran, but numbers don't always tell the whole story.
How is TvP? Is the fearsome 2/3 base MMMV SCV pull a result of Protoss dominance late game? Regardless, is it still too strong?
What about TvZ? Is MMMM too cost effective? Or have Zergs adapted.
Any thoughts on ZvP? Personally I can't think of any balance complaints. here's what i wonder about TvP SCV pull... if terran decides to sacrifice ~30 SCVs, i believe protoss too should pull a similar amount of probes. but the only one who did it was elfi. could this possibly be the answer? it's such an obvious thing. have protosses tried it and it didnt work? It has to do with ranged versus melee. If Protoss pulls Probes, then probes would block Zealots from attacking. On the other hand, when Terran Pulls SCVs, they block Zealots from attacking (and sock up ranged shots), while Marines and Marauders bang away. Also, of course, SCVs are less important to Terran than Probes are to Protoss. In fact, generally, if Terran is within 5 SCVs of a Toss' probe count, he's economically ahead. Mules allow a Terran to run "on fumes" and keep up production (with no investment in infrastructure) even when the SCVs are pulled. I'm confident saying that in nearly every case proactively pulling probes to defend would be a bad play. I personally think forcefielding a chunk of SCVs and units in (on a ramp, for example), then having enough stalkers to effectively kill them without losing Colossus to Vikings is the key. i know mules mean that terran needs less SCVs, but assume T has 55 SCVs and pulls 25 while protoss has 70 probes and pulls 25, the eco should still be even.
Thats actually not true, if 55 SCVs plus 5 mules are even with 70 probes, then 30 SCVs and 5 mules are way ahead then 45 probes.
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On September 16 2013 11:52 Taro134 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 11:34 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 11:00 -_- wrote:On September 16 2013 10:02 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 09:55 -_- wrote:
So, any thoughts on balance after Dreamhack? Clearly, Terran did well, with 3 of the last 4 players being Terran, but numbers don't always tell the whole story.
How is TvP? Is the fearsome 2/3 base MMMV SCV pull a result of Protoss dominance late game? Regardless, is it still too strong?
What about TvZ? Is MMMM too cost effective? Or have Zergs adapted.
Any thoughts on ZvP? Personally I can't think of any balance complaints. here's what i wonder about TvP SCV pull... if terran decides to sacrifice ~30 SCVs, i believe protoss too should pull a similar amount of probes. but the only one who did it was elfi. could this possibly be the answer? it's such an obvious thing. have protosses tried it and it didnt work? It has to do with ranged versus melee. If Protoss pulls Probes, then probes would block Zealots from attacking. On the other hand, when Terran Pulls SCVs, they block Zealots from attacking (and sock up ranged shots), while Marines and Marauders bang away. Also, of course, SCVs are less important to Terran than Probes are to Protoss. In fact, generally, if Terran is within 5 SCVs of a Toss' probe count, he's economically ahead. Mules allow a Terran to run "on fumes" and keep up production (with no investment in infrastructure) even when the SCVs are pulled. I'm confident saying that in nearly every case proactively pulling probes to defend would be a bad play. I personally think forcefielding a chunk of SCVs and units in (on a ramp, for example), then having enough stalkers to effectively kill them without losing Colossus to Vikings is the key. i know mules mean that terran needs less SCVs, but assume T has 55 SCVs and pulls 25 while protoss has 70 probes and pulls 25, the eco should still be even. Thats actually not true, if 55 SCVs plus 5 mules are even with 70 probes, then 30 SCVs and 5 mules are way ahead then 45 probes.
terran doesnt have 5 OCs with that timing. usually 3. so protoss should try to stay 15 probes ahead. sounds possible...
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On September 16 2013 11:42 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 11:34 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 11:00 -_- wrote:On September 16 2013 10:02 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 09:55 -_- wrote:
So, any thoughts on balance after Dreamhack? Clearly, Terran did well, with 3 of the last 4 players being Terran, but numbers don't always tell the whole story.
How is TvP? Is the fearsome 2/3 base MMMV SCV pull a result of Protoss dominance late game? Regardless, is it still too strong?
What about TvZ? Is MMMM too cost effective? Or have Zergs adapted.
Any thoughts on ZvP? Personally I can't think of any balance complaints. here's what i wonder about TvP SCV pull... if terran decides to sacrifice ~30 SCVs, i believe protoss too should pull a similar amount of probes. but the only one who did it was elfi. could this possibly be the answer? it's such an obvious thing. have protosses tried it and it didnt work? It has to do with ranged versus melee. If Protoss pulls Probes, then probes would block Zealots from attacking. On the other hand, when Terran Pulls SCVs, they block Zealots from attacking (and sock up ranged shots), while Marines and Marauders bang away. Also, of course, SCVs are less important to Terran than Probes are to Protoss. In fact, generally, if Terran is within 5 SCVs of a Toss' probe count, he's economically ahead. Mules allow a Terran to run "on fumes" and keep up production (with no investment in infrastructure) even when the SCVs are pulled. I'm confident saying that in nearly every case proactively pulling probes to defend would be a bad play. I personally think forcefielding a chunk of SCVs and units in (on a ramp, for example), then having enough stalkers to effectively kill them without losing Colossus to Vikings is the key. you could wait till most zealots are dead till you bring probes into the fight. or have probes behind zealots, just to soak up damage. just throwing ideas into the room. i know mules mean that terran needs less SCVs, but assume T has 55 SCVs and pulls 25 while protoss has 70 probes and pulls 25, the eco should still be even. i personally think that not pulling probes is bad play and the reason why SCV pull is so strong, but i'm not sure. The problem is even pros and mods feel pulling probes is bad because there's warp-in available and Terranhave mules to offset the sac. Which are both true, however, if you have to sac some probes ANYWAY to free up supply, why not integrate it into a stalker/colossi push (assuming you have enough observer vision to not run them blindly into a mine line).
I think you are misunderstanding a bit. Pros are pulling scvs because there is a nice timing to abuse, not because of maxed supply limit.
People are wondering if protoss should pull probe to defend the push, not to free up supply.
one big reason why pulling probe is not popular against this drop is because even if you managed to defend this push, the T will have 3 base with mule economy while you will be low on probe count to get the gas unit out.
And if you are wondering why pros don't probe pull along with stalker/colossi push, it is because protoss already have tanky front line units - zealots while terran doesn't.
and mine line in TvP? lol?
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On September 16 2013 11:50 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 11:42 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On September 16 2013 11:34 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 11:00 -_- wrote:On September 16 2013 10:02 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 09:55 -_- wrote:
So, any thoughts on balance after Dreamhack? Clearly, Terran did well, with 3 of the last 4 players being Terran, but numbers don't always tell the whole story.
How is TvP? Is the fearsome 2/3 base MMMV SCV pull a result of Protoss dominance late game? Regardless, is it still too strong?
What about TvZ? Is MMMM too cost effective? Or have Zergs adapted.
Any thoughts on ZvP? Personally I can't think of any balance complaints. here's what i wonder about TvP SCV pull... if terran decides to sacrifice ~30 SCVs, i believe protoss too should pull a similar amount of probes. but the only one who did it was elfi. could this possibly be the answer? it's such an obvious thing. have protosses tried it and it didnt work? It has to do with ranged versus melee. If Protoss pulls Probes, then probes would block Zealots from attacking. On the other hand, when Terran Pulls SCVs, they block Zealots from attacking (and sock up ranged shots), while Marines and Marauders bang away. Also, of course, SCVs are less important to Terran than Probes are to Protoss. In fact, generally, if Terran is within 5 SCVs of a Toss' probe count, he's economically ahead. Mules allow a Terran to run "on fumes" and keep up production (with no investment in infrastructure) even when the SCVs are pulled. I'm confident saying that in nearly every case proactively pulling probes to defend would be a bad play. I personally think forcefielding a chunk of SCVs and units in (on a ramp, for example), then having enough stalkers to effectively kill them without losing Colossus to Vikings is the key. you could wait till most zealots are dead till you bring probes into the fight. or have probes behind zealots, just to soak up damage. just throwing ideas into the room. i know mules mean that terran needs less SCVs, but assume T has 55 SCVs and pulls 25 while protoss has 70 probes and pulls 25, the eco should still be even. i personally think that not pulling probes is bad play and the reason why SCV pull is so strong, but i'm not sure. The problem is even pros and mods feel pulling probes is bad because there's warp-in available and Terranhave mules to offset the sac. Which are both true, however, if you have to sac some probes ANYWAY to free up supply, why not integrate it into a stalker/colossi push (assuming you have enough observer vision to not run them blindly into a mine line). i actually do that as terran sometimes, once i have 5+ extra OCs. i think it's pretty good. i dont get why warpin makes pulling probes worse. and i already explained why mules dont necessarily mean that pulling probes will leave you behind in eco. (" assume T has 55 SCVs and pulls 25 while protoss has 70 probes and pulls 25, the eco should still be even") yea, i realize pros dont do it. i just dont understand it. Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 11:46 Taro134 wrote:On September 16 2013 11:13 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On September 16 2013 11:00 -_- wrote:On September 16 2013 10:02 beg wrote:On September 16 2013 09:55 -_- wrote:
So, any thoughts on balance after Dreamhack? Clearly, Terran did well, with 3 of the last 4 players being Terran, but numbers don't always tell the whole story.
How is TvP? Is the fearsome 2/3 base MMMV SCV pull a result of Protoss dominance late game? Regardless, is it still too strong?
What about TvZ? Is MMMM too cost effective? Or have Zergs adapted.
Any thoughts on ZvP? Personally I can't think of any balance complaints. here's what i wonder about TvP SCV pull... if terran decides to sacrifice ~30 SCVs, i believe protoss too should pull a similar amount of probes. but the only one who did it was elfi. could this possibly be the answer? it's such an obvious thing. have protosses tried it and it didnt work? It has to do with ranged versus melee. If Protoss pulls Probes, then probes would block Zealots from attacking. On the other hand, when Terran Pulls SCVs, they block Zealots from attacking (and sock up ranged shots), while Marines and Marauders bang away. Also, of course, SCVs are less important to Terran than Probes are to Protoss. In fact, generally, if Terran is within 5 SCVs of a Toss' probe count, he's economically ahead. Mules allow a Terran to run "on fumes" and keep up production (with no investment in infrastructure) even when the SCVs are pulled. I'm confident saying that in nearly every case proactively pulling probes to defend would be a bad play. I personally think forcefielding a chunk of SCVs and units in (on a ramp, for example), then having enough stalkers to effectively kill them without losing Colossus to Vikings is the key. Here's an idea, You could probe pull with ranged units behind them, like colossi or stalkers, even more awesome, why not both!!! 0/2/2 probes believe it or not, will take forever to kill, especially with a colossi/stalker death ball behind it. Why do it? Simple, you don't need 90 probes after 40min and the main and natural is mined out. Of course this would only work if you didn't blindly run them into a siege line or widow mine line. Terrans don't do a SCV pull either when there are critical no. Of colossi out so please stop calling or implying they are in some way imba. Honestly, have you played PvT? 0/2/2 probes believe it or not will take one second to kill. You can see them very similar to same amount of lings without speed and can't attack. The reason to pull SCVs is that protoss units have high damage output but low attack rates. If those SCVs soak up 3~4 round of colossus volleys terran will win the battle. Its all about time. So when you have like 5 colossus maybe on volley can clean up most of SCVs. Think about why not pulling them in TvZ? Because ling-bane kill them very quickly and not lose too many time and firepower. After 40 minutes, well people already did that, to free up some supply. i see what you're saying. but still the probes would soak up damage to soften up the terran's attack. if you'd pull just the right amount of probes to not fall behind in eco they would undoubtedly help your defense. sounds better than just dying to every single SCV pull, imho.
Ya they will help a bit but they are not as tanky as SCVs. And pulling probes also means that even if you defend the push you are sill not ahead. You know in low economy terran is the best race. I actually don't think TvP is imbalance as TvZ. SCV pull just force toss to either go directly to storm or stay colossus longer. Basically you can't be too greedy in tech. There are ways to defend them for sure.
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United States15275 Posts
On September 16 2013 09:55 -_- wrote:
So, any thoughts on balance after Dreamhack? Clearly, Terran did well, with 3 of the last 4 players being Terran, but numbers don't always tell the whole story.
How is TvP? Is the fearsome 2/3 base MMMV SCV pull a result of Protoss dominance late game? Regardless, is it still too strong?
What about TvZ? Is MMMM too cost effective? Or have Zergs adapted.
Any thoughts on ZvP? Personally I can't think of any balance complaints.
There weren't any major examples of "imbalance" in this tournament.
Innovation had SCV pulls against elfi, who wasn't macroing too well and simply lost to the pushes.
TvZ looked mostly the same. Life threw out a lot of strange builds with mixed success. He won and lost some macro games but he is still training to regain his potential skill.
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This dreamhack was stacked with the world's best terrans, practically all of them (except bomber, who seems to be slumping?) were there. On the otherhand, most of the world's best ZvT and PvTers were not there to take out the masses of top terrans. The exception was Life, who not surprisingly made Ro4. I kinda expected Hyun, Flash and Symbol to make it a bit further though. Jaedong too, supposedly being good at ZvP, but sOs is good.
If PartinG, Rain and Soulkey (and maybe Scarlett?) were also there, I'm pretty sure the play-off brackets would look a bit different. As it was, however, the Ro4 being 3 Terrans was not at all a surprising result.
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hyvaa, DRG, SoulKey, soO, PartinG, Squirtle, First, MyungSik, Rain missing as good players vs Terran. Hyun dropped the ball so hard vs forGG and I would say it was a fluke, HyuN performed way below his level
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Bomber loses versus two rushes by Soo and he's slumping. Hyun loses 2-1 to ForGG and he performs 'way below his level'. And apparently Jaedong, sOs, Life, Hyun can hardly be expected to beat MMA and Supernova?
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On September 16 2013 15:30 Grumbels wrote:
Bomber loses versus two rushes by Soo and he's slumping. Hyun loses 2-1 to ForGG and he performs 'way below his level'. And apparently Jaedong, sOs, Life, Hyun can hardly be expected to beat MMA and Supernova?
HyuN lost 1-2 to forGG who used to have and I would dare say still has very bad Terran vs Zerg. Its by far his worst match up and he states so over and over again. While Hyun doesn't have great success against forGG, he can go toe to toe with TaeJa, Polt etc. He took down better Terrans on a regular fashion thats why I am saying he performed below his level.
For that guy that said Bomber is slumping, yeah I disagree as well. Jaedong, sOs and HyuN can be expected to beat SuperNoVa/MMA, but Jaedong is shaky in ZvT and also I don't see why you would bring that up, he lost to sOs. sOs also beat SuperNoVa 2-0 for seeding and his series against TaeJa was rather not telling the story. Life won vs SuperNoVa and lost to TaeJa and I dare to say, Life really didn't look too sharp in his series vs TaeJa.
People simply are saying the Terran lineup was better compared to P/Z and the real good players vs Terran were not present or at least not present in numbers as high as good Terran players.
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Anyone with eyes can see zerg vs terran is an utter joke of a matchup whether zerg can win or not, i don't want to have to play another 2 years of marine mine being rallied at me off of 3 cc, and i certainly dont want to watch it.
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On September 16 2013 16:01 MattD wrote:
Anyone with eyes can see zerg vs terran is an utter joke of a matchup whether zerg can win or not, i don't want to have to play another 2 years of marine mine being rallied at me off of 3 cc, and i certainly dont want to watch it.
If you don't want to, you need to either buff something about Terran that makes it viable to play anything other than biomine or nerf something about Zerg (mutas, viper) to prevent marine/tank being utterly dominated. If nothing does change, biomine is the only option there is.
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People simply are saying the Terran lineup was better compared to P/Z and the real good players vs Terran were not present or at least not present in numbers as high as good Terran players.
pretty much this. DRG and soulkey moving to dreamhack would have tell another story
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On September 16 2013 15:37 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 15:30 Grumbels wrote:
Bomber loses versus two rushes by Soo and he's slumping. Hyun loses 2-1 to ForGG and he performs 'way below his level'. And apparently Jaedong, sOs, Life, Hyun can hardly be expected to beat MMA and Supernova? HyuN lost 1-2 to forGG who used to have and I would dare say still has very bad Terran vs Zerg. Its by far his worst match up and he states so over and over again. While Hyun doesn't have great success against forGG, he can go toe to toe with TaeJa, Polt etc. He took down better Terrans on a regular fashion thats why I am saying he performed below his level. For that guy that said Bomber is slumping, yeah I disagree as well. Jaedong, sOs and HyuN can be expected to beat SuperNoVa/MMA, but Jaedong is shaky in ZvT and also I don't see why you would bring that up, he lost to sOs. sOs also beat SuperNoVa 2-0 for seeding and his series against TaeJa was rather not telling the story. Life won vs SuperNoVa and lost to TaeJa and I dare to say, Life really didn't look too sharp in his series vs TaeJa. People simply are saying the Terran lineup was better compared to P/Z and the real good players vs Terran were not present or at least not present in numbers as high as good Terran players.
MMA, ForGG, Supernova are not better than Jaedong, sOs, Hero, Hyun, Life. Maybe Taeja and Innovation are, but it's not 'simply' the case that terran was always going to dominate this tournament.
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Terran units have much higher dps and lower amounts of hp, where Protoss is reverse.
So while it might be a balanced fight w/o any scv's/probes to tank having extra meat shield as Terran is much more worthwhile.
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On September 16 2013 15:21 NarutO wrote:
hyvaa, DRG, SoulKey, soO, PartinG, Squirtle, First, MyungSik, Rain missing as good players vs Terran. Hyun dropped the ball so hard vs forGG and I would say it was a fluke, HyuN performed way below his level
there were also a lot of Terrans missing. The Terran lineup was better, but there are quite a ton of great players missing:
Maru, Bomber, Polt; the other 6 Code S Terrans that weren't there; European Terrans;
Don't want to argue that the Terran line-up was better, because it was. But it's not like MMA or forGG are above topforeigner level or as if Heart, Ryung, sC would be amongst the strong Korean Terrans. But yeah, INnoVation and Taeja were surely (together with sOs) the topstars of that tournament.
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EPT
