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convention
United States622 Posts
On September 16 2013 08:12 pylonsalad wrote: By definition, the winner is always the better player. Why ever have balance patches then? Surely when terrans were owning in the start of SC2, they were just better than everyone else. | ||
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Promised_pain
Finland61 Posts
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DifuntO
Greece2376 Posts
Looking at the Playoffs bracket we see: Hyun 1-2 ForGG Hyun likes to mass ling-bane-roach(which is nice to watch),he won the first game easily,then ForGG adapted a little bit and Hyun refused to change his style even after his multiple attacks did not work. Taeja 2-0 Yugioh I did not see those games but that's what i expected. Life 2-1 Supernova First game Life looked pretty bad(+ a couple lucky mine hits,or bad control,whatever you prefer)but after that he did fine,nice decision making and counter attacks. Taeja 2-0 Life Life tried similar things to what he did to Supernova but Taeja was just too good. | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
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Promised_pain
Finland61 Posts
On September 16 2013 08:59 xyzz wrote: Another month or two since I last posted, and Protoss still hasn't won anything. Question is, will Protoss win a (read: singular) tournament before the next expansion? Does WCS EU (Duckdeok) or Dreamhack Summer (Stardust) count? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12562 Posts
On September 16 2013 08:21 convention wrote: Why ever have balance patches then? Surely when terrans were owning in the start of SC2, they were just better than everyone else. Well they were the better players in this stage of the game, yeah... Patching shouldn't defuse the merit of the prepatch players. I know it does, but it shouldn't. They still put in their effort. Yeah, it's easier when a race is broken, but it's not easy. If it was easy, I could do it. I can't. We say the same thing about nerves, btw. "Yeah, he was the better player, but he got nervous." So what? Dealing with nerves is part of being a player. As a player, you're always trying to perform the best you can in the conditions that you are in, whether in game or outside the game. We have this sort of view where it's disgusting to abuse something that is broken. On the other hand, nobody would ever say that it's disgusting to abuse an opponent who gets nervous on stage. We don't say that, because it's obviously not the player's fault if his opponent gets nervous. Well duh, it's not the player's fault either if his race happens to stomp at the moment where he wins... That's why it shouldn't be disgusting at all, it's just the right way to play. You don't get extra points for being noble and giving your opponent a chance. | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
On September 16 2013 09:04 Promised_pain wrote: Does WCS EU (Duckdeok) or Dreamhack Summer (Stardust) count? Of course they count. Naturally I asked if they'll win a premier tournament again before the expansion is done. As a spectator I find the fact Terran wins four times as many major trophies as Protoss does disheartening, especially as the few wins Protoss does have have come from flash in the pan gimmick players. Either the race sucks or the players who play it suck, or both, but it can't be good for the game. Cu in early November. My guess is that by that time we have 2 more Terran winners and one Zerg winner. | ||
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
On September 12 2013 11:03 Cloak wrote: It would be interesting if Blizzard could cultivate a separate format where SC2 could also be entertainment focused rather than competition focused The problem is that there shouldn't be a conflict between these two things. Plenty of competitions are also entertaining. SC2 is teetering on not being very entertaining anymore, at least from my perspective. It seems like there is just very little variety. MMMM vs. ling/bling/muta just ISN'T fun to watch anymore for me, for example. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11110 Posts
On September 16 2013 08:21 convention wrote: Why ever have balance patches then? Surely when terrans were owning in the start of SC2, they were just better than everyone else. Well you see better players naturally prefer terran... It took terrible terrible game imbalancing nerfs in order to make these world class players lose to lowly shit "a-move" Protoss and stupid zergs. More seriously people can vote with their eyes. I didn't bother watching. Enough people apparently find it entertaining or haven't kicked the habit yet. | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
How is TvP? Is the fearsome 2/3 base MMMV SCV pull a result of Protoss dominance late game? Regardless, is it still too strong? What about TvZ? Is MMMM too cost effective? Or have Zergs adapted. Any thoughts on ZvP? Personally I can't think of any balance complaints. | ||
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beg
991 Posts
On September 16 2013 09:55 -_- wrote: So, any thoughts on balance after Dreamhack? Clearly, Terran did well, with 3 of the last 4 players being Terran, but numbers don't always tell the whole story. How is TvP? Is the fearsome 2/3 base MMMV SCV pull a result of Protoss dominance late game? Regardless, is it still too strong? What about TvZ? Is MMMM too cost effective? Or have Zergs adapted. Any thoughts on ZvP? Personally I can't think of any balance complaints. here's what i wonder about TvP SCV pull... if terran decides to sacrifice ~30 SCVs, i believe protoss too should pull a similar amount of probes. but the only one who did it was elfi. could this possibly be the answer? it's such an obvious thing. have protosses tried it and it didnt work? | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2065 Posts
Solution: Lower range slightly, reduce HP to 60? | ||
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Sefer
47 Posts
On September 16 2013 08:12 pylonsalad wrote: By definition, the winner is always the better player. wrong, the winner played better. The better player plays better on average and/or achieves or has achieved better results. | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
On September 16 2013 10:02 beg wrote: here's what i wonder about TvP SCV pull... if terran decides to sacrifice ~30 SCVs, i believe protoss too should pull a similar amount of probes. but the only one who did it was elfi. could this possibly be the answer? it's such an obvious thing. have protosses tried it and it didnt work? It has to do with ranged versus melee. If Protoss pulls Probes, then probes would block Zealots from attacking. On the other hand, when Terran Pulls SCVs, they block Zealots from attacking (and sock up ranged shots), while Marines and Marauders bang away. Also, of course, SCVs are less important to Terran than Probes are to Protoss. In fact, generally, if Terran is within 5 SCVs of a Toss' probe count, he's economically ahead. Mules allow a Terran to run "on fumes" and keep up production (with no investment in infrastructure) even when the SCVs are pulled. I'm confident saying that in nearly every case proactively pulling probes to defend would be a bad play. I personally think forcefielding a chunk of SCVs and units in (on a ramp, for example), then having enough stalkers to effectively kill them without losing Colossus to Vikings is the key. | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
A week ago or so top5 were terrans. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
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ETisME
12889 Posts
I was thinking on observable micro and storm being such a devastating and crucial spell looks silly when massed because it is instant. One way to help is the anticipation of the storm landing. I am thinking a similar animation as Leona ulti in LoL but with a much smaller delay: + Show Spoiler + (last spell that killed both) Another thing I want to look at is mine hits. There is no difference for the viewers to know if the mine hit was intentional or not. This is problematic because it can't differentiate a player who have good mine control and who doesn't. Maybe the system should reward the player for targetting the mines and shows another animation of the mine fire? The late game muta ling baneling engagement can look silly when we just see bio running back, mines hitting everything and then the units leftover fight against eachother. That mine hitting everything is just messy and it is hard for viewers to see what is dead because of the swarm units zerg has. (you have lings and mutas blocking pretty much the whole mine field) | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On September 16 2013 11:00 -_- wrote: It has to do with ranged versus melee. If Protoss pulls Probes, then probes would block Zealots from attacking. On the other hand, when Terran Pulls SCVs, they block Zealots from attacking (and sock up ranged shots), while Marines and Marauders bang away. Also, of course, SCVs are less important to Terran than Probes are to Protoss. In fact, generally, if Terran is within 5 SCVs of a Toss' probe count, he's economically ahead. Mules allow a Terran to run "on fumes" and keep up production (with no investment in infrastructure) even when the SCVs are pulled. I'm confident saying that in nearly every case proactively pulling probes to defend would be a bad play. I personally think forcefielding a chunk of SCVs and units in (on a ramp, for example), then having enough stalkers to effectively kill them without losing Colossus to Vikings is the key. Here's an idea, You could probe pull with ranged units behind them, like colossi or stalkers, even more awesome, why not both!!! 0/2/2 probes believe it or not, will take forever to kill, especially with a colossi/stalker death ball behind it. Why do it? Simple, you don't need 90 probes after 40min and the main and natural is mined out. Of course this would only work if you didn't blindly run them into a siege line or widow mine line. Terrans don't do a SCV pull either when there are critical no. Of colossi out so please stop calling or implying they are in some way imba. | ||
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Schism
Australia85 Posts
Take the hint. DOTA and LOL are team games. They don't require the level of skill demanded by SC2 1v1. Guess what else doesn't require as much skill as SC2 1v1? That's right, SC2 team play. It's just another way in which elitism is and will continue to kill SC2. You have to appeal to the lowest common denominator if you want the mass audience. It isn't rocket science, it really isn't. Start incorporating some high level, seriously competitive team sections into the pro sc2 tournaments and watch the viewership rise. All of a sudden joe "i can't break 60 APM" average is watching something he plays and enjoys and hey, maybe he can be an elite team player too! | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 16 2013 11:07 ETisME wrote: Just a quick thought, anyone thinks Storm should have a small tiny tiny delay before landing? I was thinking on observable micro and storm being such a devastating and crucial spell looks silly when massed because it is instant. One way to help is the anticipation of the storm landing. I am thinking a similar animation as Leona ulti in LoL but with a much smaller delay: + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihxABbWVI7g (last spell that killed both) Another thing I want to look at is mine hits. There is no difference for the viewers to know if the mine hit was intentional or not. This is problematic because it can't differentiate a player who have good mine control and who doesn't. Maybe the system should reward the player for targetting the mines and shows another animation of the mine fire? The late game muta ling baneling engagement can look silly when we just see bio running back, mines hitting everything and then the units leftover fight against eachother. That mine hitting everything is just messy and it is hard for viewers to see what is dead because of the swarm units zerg has. (you have lings and mutas blocking pretty much the whole mine field) I think it's fine as it is right now, you can still dodge storms decently as long as you see the templar moving in, a lot of the times when a Terran gets stormed to shit is when the army gets storm-flanked while retreating from one storm. I'm pretty sure EMP is just as fast. I want something like this too, but I'm not really sure how something like this could be shown, in engagements mines are triggered so fast. | ||
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