EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 716
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larse
1611 Posts
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
On August 26 2013 04:45 ChristianS wrote: Scarlett's games were hardly so fatalistic. She smashed some really good players, and lost to the tournament's eventual champion – in close games, at that. If a foreign Zerg is able to do that well against the Korean Terran who eventually goes on to win the WCS finals, I don't think the match-up can be quite as bad as you're saying. You can read balance from the total distribution of races in tournaments in e.g. ro16 or ro32 but actually not from a single match. If you want to read balance from a single match you need to take all crucial premises into consideration, what you in no way do. The only premise you seem to know is korean vs nonkorean, which is at this point nothing but just stupid. First of all Scarletts current ZvT skill can be considered at least on korean level if not above korean level in this very tournament. There are a few factors that play a decisive role for the reason why Scarlett was kind of successful in what she was doing in this tournament: 1. ZvT is Scarlett's own very best matchup, she said it herself and obviously her TvZ is better than her both other matchups: Assumption: Scarlett had only one matchup to play and prepare for in these WCS grand finals. She only faced terrans. Result: Scarlett benefited from preparing and playing only one matchup that is her favourite and best matchup at the same time. Certainty: 100% verifiable 2. Adaptive role of women in mankind: Assumption: Since the beginning of time women were in adaptive positions while men had active positions in societies. The current metagame of ZvT favours pure adaptive play. She was having under control her own aggression up to the point where she obviously must attack the opponent. You basically never see her wasting units in useless aggressions while male korean zergs in every series try to attack and play an active role in the game which ZvT more or less does not allow to do (one of my major points of criticism on the matchup) and therefore lose many units (see soulkey vs innovation, trying to baneling harrass, watch JD failing to use banelings on Bombers eco etc.). Result: The current meta of ZvT genetically favours women above men. Certainty: Whether it is true or not can of course be subject of discussion. Doing a quick research at least does not let me find anyone that asserts the opposite while I find alot of articles and other stuff that exactly confirm this (e.g random google find: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/opinion/brooks-why-men-fail.html?_r=0). 3. Being a woman amongst men: Assumption: SC2 is a male's domain. Females are historically not being taken THAT serious in male' domains and the other way round. Men like to do love to women not war. If you play soccer or any other sports against a girl/woman you wont hit that hard, wont look for your victory that severely and in general competition gets different. Everybody can acknowledge this from his/(or her) own experience in life. Result: She was able to take advantage from her position being a girl/women in a male's domain. Certainty: Again this is arguable. I consider it at least 50% true. Probably in some matches it has had impact (vs MMA, Maru) while in others it had not (vs Alive, Bomber). Given the fact that her ZvT is quite top of the art in this very moment and at least on par with korean level while she had to face only terrans, in addition with natural women's skills of patience and adaptivity that make her suffer less than males from the current zerg metagame and last but not least some opponents didnt at all play their best against her are part of the explanation of her success. Examples: 1. An easy example is MMA vs Scarlett. He barely harrasses or attacks her at all ("never harrass a girl"). He seems being quite the gentleman and laid back guy (I also had the chance to talk to him 2011/2012 when I used to live in South Korea, where he already expressed his likes for europe/germany towards me). Success doesnt seem THIS important for him at any costs. He obviously didnt give (maybe couldnt give) his very best in the whole tournament and also not vs Scarlett. He probably enjoys to watch his teammate, a girl, to succeed as much as if he succeeded himself. MMA never would have proxy raxed her at all to get an unfair advantage above a girl that is his teammate, he is quite to cool to do this for any reason and would probably rather lose a match than winning it with the means of an unfair proxy rax attack against a girl. 2. Another easy example is Alive. His position and reputation was severly attacked by Scarletts statement (he will be an easy win). The girls advantage expires here instantly. Alive had to prove this being wrong and he did. He used all kind of tricks, attacks and harrassment to put her down. Why zerg is punishing and discouraging to play (what I have stated above) clearly becomes visible in this match. 3. If Scarlett had to face a mixture of top korean zegs and protosses as well as terrans instead of terrans only, she would have had probably less success. JD probably would not have lost to her, probably some top tier protosses too. Also if she had to prepare all 3 matchups she would have had a much harder time to do so. Jaedong: Lets make it short about JD. He obviously prepared alot for ZvP. It is easy to say that if JD had faced some of the very good korean terrans earlier, that he would not have made it to the finals most likely (watch top korean zegs in korean preliminaries). Of course all these factors play a role for every player in SC2. To what extend may be questionable/arguable but they in fact do. If you break it down to this, it is obviously not a matter of balance anymore why scarlett came that far. What you basically say is korean vs non korean is the only thing that matters. It is the same as if I said that JD vs Bomber 0:4 and because both are koreans the matchup must be imbalanced. Instead I stated that bomber was the better player but I am still concerned about the balance/metagame of TvZ for the reasons I stated. When judging about balance it is much more cogent to look at the general distribution of races. Zergs were 2 out of 16. No zerg make it through from the korea region even though they have alot of very talented Zergs. These are the things to look at when judging about balance, actually. And just to make this clear, I am a huge fan of Scarlett and in no way want to reduce her achievements. But things are as they are and can be analysed, seriously. User was warned for this post | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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krooked
376 Posts
Right now, with widowmines being so hard to play against, it is certaintly T favored in the end, that I am sure of. But its not gamebreakingly bad. I hope it gets changed, but the way I see it, it can be "bypassed" given enough skill. The problem of course is that it requires more from the zerg than the terran. But one can argue that this occurs in other matchups as well, so I'm not sure how serious we should take it. In the end all we can do is wait and see. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
On August 26 2013 16:26 krooked wrote: You do realize scarlett is literally a guy that dresses and acts like a girl because he wish he was one? Like, no offense to her/him or transgendered people in general, but your arguments are kinda laughable. About the current TvZ balance, I think certain aspects goes in favor of Z and others in favor of T. Right now, with widowmines being so hard to play against, it is certaintly T favored in the end, that I am sure of. But its not gamebreakingly bad. I hope it gets changed, but the way I see it, it can be "bypassed" given enough skill. The problem of course is that it requires more from the zerg than the terran. But one can argue that this occurs in other matchups as well, so I'm not sure how serious we should take it. In the end all we can do is wait and see. "You do realize scarlett is literally a guy that dresses and acts like a girl because he wish he was one?" "but your arguments are kinda laughable" please ban for this guy. Off topic and unecessary offenses. "Right now, with widowmines being so hard to play against, it is certaintly T favored in the end, that I am sure of." Now you even confirm what I basically say. I quite much doubt I will continue to debate on TL as the level of discussion is not mature enaugh. I gave you detailled information which factors Scarlett was probably able to benefit from. If you dont believe this, better go to church instead of science or give a good reason why anything that I said should be wrong. But stop acting like a 16 year old child that you probably are. Laughable is you that is way below my level. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
Unbelievable. You really are the king of all morons. Reading your post I died a little inside , holy fucking jesus what the fuck. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
If you don't want to believe social studies stuff about girls vs boys then stick to the actual facts. E.g. that there is no single zerg that made it through korea qualifier even tho there are alot of talents. Also I suggest you to read examples 1. and 2. again that I provided. They are actually quite much hitting the point and are backing up what I said above. This is getting too low for me honestly. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
Your posts are bad, you make up arbitary facts and discredit players. I think talking once to MMA doesn't make you an expert on this matter. I am very close to the scene and more pros than you probably and your statements are not only offensive but also wrong. I hope Scarlett never reads this, as its so dumb and discrediting. Saying that basically Bomber/MMA etc would all rape her if they wanted lol, stupidity. Maybe , just maybe you could acknowledge that she's simply insanely good? Reaching top 16 GM in Korea, constantly beating down good players. I really don't understand why you would discredit one foreigner that seems to be good and hot right now. Naniwa vs INnoVation - please explain how that happened, just out of curiosity. Was INnovation tired? Didn't want to advance? Maybe TvP is just imba? What is it. Maybe INnoVation is gay and has a crush on Naniwa and didn't manage to beat him down due to this? | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
Scarlett vs MMA and vs Alive are the very best examples. I just could repeat what I wrote above but I think it is not necessary. Many people forget how much mental things are important in SC2 and the results of matches. Just look at Innovation. He constantly proves mental weakness over and over again. He has issues with being considered "the best" and cannot use his skills anymore. When I wrote this last time, naruto acted like a flaming child towards me, as he always does. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 26 2013 16:52 bo1b wrote: It's because you're a fucking idiot | ||
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00higgo
Australia119 Posts
On August 26 2013 16:52 bo1b wrote: It's because your a fucking idiot had to be said | ||
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hearters
Singapore224 Posts
Marines. So I think blizzard should buff something zerg that is "good" against marines and make it better. Ultras. Maybe +1 armor with the +50hp will be helpful. Marauders and immortals would still rape ultras. Ultras would actually be cost-effective against marines, considering their place in the tech tree and their 50s build time. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
The problem I'd say isn't even getting to upgrades, it's microing against steadily increasing numbers of widowmines. It's not too difficult to micro against a few widowmines, but once theres like 7-8 or even more it becomes stupidly difficult to split lings/banes/mutas. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On August 26 2013 16:14 LSN wrote: Despites krooked attempt to take over the award, this must literally be the most retarded post of at least the month on TL. Seriously this is just sad. You can read balance from the total distribution of races in tournaments in e.g. ro16 or ro32 but actually not from a single match. This is the only non-retarded part of your entire post. Don't look at only RO8 players, but look at for example the top 32 players. Which are coming season for Korea 12 P, 11 T, 9 Z. Yeah least zerg, but no huge differences. Last season it was 10 P, 8 T, 14 Z. For europe coming season it is 15 P, 10 T, 7 Z. AM is 6-4-6, but they still have to do their challengers. And I think these finals have proven that while both Europe and AM are still behind Korea, it isn't like the top Koreans walked over the top from EU and AM. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 26 2013 16:58 bo1b wrote: Marines aren't the problem that zergs are having. At least it isn't for me. The problem I'd say isn't even getting to upgrades, it's microing against steadily increasing numbers of widowmines. It's not too difficult to micro against a few widowmines, but once theres like 7-8 or even more it becomes stupidly difficult to split lings/banes/mutas. Well, it's not that hard to beat widow mines. Build roaches or roach/hydra or swarm hosts. Mineproblem solved. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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