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On August 20 2013 16:19 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 16:16 Entirety wrote:On August 20 2013 16:15 VayneAuthority wrote:On August 20 2013 16:13 Entirety wrote:On August 20 2013 16:03 VayneAuthority wrote:
the stupidest part design wise of protoss right now is easily the fact there is no choice when it comes to gateway or warpgate. Warpgate is simply stronger in every aspect. I don't get why they give the option to revert warpgate back to gateway but don't actually give you any reason to ever want a gateway over a warpgate?
Can we please get that decision to put some more skill into protoss because besides hitting forcefields and storms it is honestly lacking in that department Amazing players have done amazing things with Protoss. Have you hit perfect Forcefields in less than 0.5 seconds like MC? Have you displayed outstanding Blink micro like Puzzle? Have you used Warp Prisms constantly with DTs/Zealots until the enemy breaks like HerO? Have you controlled your Templars perfectly like PartinG? Have you reached 50+ kill Immortals with Warp Prism micro like HerO and Squirtle? Have you kited Marines/Zealots from one base to the other? Have you Storm Dropped like Rain while pulling off beautiful defensive macro? Have you forced 2 spores per base and killed 15 drones + 4 queens with 6 Phoenix? Have you killed 10+ marines with a single oracle? There is not a single player on this planet that can play well enough for Protoss mastery... I was expecting a useful reply and I get this instead, sigh its like the b.net forums damit All you got out of that was the last paragraph, really? The fact that warpgates are 100% superior to gateways means that Protoss doesn't require enough skill. Right. well no country written down, so I'm just gonna chalk you up to being from Romania.
Huh? Is that a really weird racist comment? Or am I missing something?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 16:27 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 16:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On August 20 2013 16:16 Entirety wrote:On August 20 2013 16:15 VayneAuthority wrote:On August 20 2013 16:13 Entirety wrote:On August 20 2013 16:03 VayneAuthority wrote:
the stupidest part design wise of protoss right now is easily the fact there is no choice when it comes to gateway or warpgate. Warpgate is simply stronger in every aspect. I don't get why they give the option to revert warpgate back to gateway but don't actually give you any reason to ever want a gateway over a warpgate?
Can we please get that decision to put some more skill into protoss because besides hitting forcefields and storms it is honestly lacking in that department Amazing players have done amazing things with Protoss. Have you hit perfect Forcefields in less than 0.5 seconds like MC? Have you displayed outstanding Blink micro like Puzzle? Have you used Warp Prisms constantly with DTs/Zealots until the enemy breaks like HerO? Have you controlled your Templars perfectly like PartinG? Have you reached 50+ kill Immortals with Warp Prism micro like HerO and Squirtle? Have you kited Marines/Zealots from one base to the other? Have you Storm Dropped like Rain while pulling off beautiful defensive macro? Have you forced 2 spores per base and killed 15 drones + 4 queens with 6 Phoenix? Have you killed 10+ marines with a single oracle? There is not a single player on this planet that can play well enough for Protoss mastery... I was expecting a useful reply and I get this instead, sigh its like the b.net forums damit All you got out of that was the last paragraph, really? The fact that warpgates are 100% superior to gateways means that Protoss doesn't require enough skill. Right. well no country written down, so I'm just gonna chalk you up to being from Romania. Huh? Is that a really weird racist comment? Or am I missing something?
There is a joke, that Romanians do not understand jokes.
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Alright then. Sounds like some Poe's law business
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If all of the warpgate units were balanced similar to the sentry, I wonder if people would go through the effort of switching warpgates to gateways and back to maximize efficiency
If you dont know what I mean:
Sentry build time - 37 seconds
time to go to warpgate/gateway - 10 sec
warpin cooldown - 32 seconds
Gateway build -> morph to warpgate -> warp in -> morph to gateway
37 - sentry1
47 - sentry2
57 - gateway
1:34 - sentry3
1:44 - sentry4
1:54 - gateway
2:31 - sentry5
2:41 - sentry6
2:51 - gateway
3:26 - sentry7
3:36 - sentry8
3:46 - gateway
4:23 - sentry9
4:33 - sentry10
etc
Just warpgate
0 - sentry1
32 - sentry2
1:04 - sentry3
1:36 - sentry4
2:08 - sentry5
2:40 - sentry6
3:12 - sentry7
3:44 - sentry8
4:16 - sentry9
4:48 - sentry10
etc
To make 10 sentries takes longer with warpgates than it does warpgate + gateway
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Saying that warpgates make gateway units weaker is like saying larva makes zerglings weaker. Nobody thinks this way because it's backwards, the ability to swarm with zerglings is part of their strength, i.e. to know the strength of a unit you need to take into account not only its stats but also the way it's produced, its counters and so on, you need the full context of the game.
Edit: and I don't really want to say this because I'm repeating myself from two years ago, but:
Zerglings build and (with creep) move very quickly, hence they can virtually instantly bridge the gap to the enemy base and reinforce the attack. It's exactly like warpgate, except that for warpgate people use the word 'fundamental design problem' and for zerglings they don't. What's different?
Almost every unit in Starcraft 2 breaks (on a surface level) some core RTS principle, it's actually what makes the game interesting. The actual problem with warpgate might just be that it doesn't fit into the game too well. Or that it should be nerfed heavily. Or maybe it's fine, I don't know.
I don't want things like defender's advantage to go away, but all that's necessary for the game is that they exist, not that every single mechanic in the game affirms those principles. The game can be more complicated than that. Something can shake at its foundations without the building toppling down.
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On August 20 2013 17:50 Grumbels wrote:
Zerglings build and (with creep) move very quickly, hence they can virtually instantly bridge the gap to the enemy base and reinforce the attack. It's exactly like warpgate, except that for warpgate people use the word 'fundamental design problem' and for zerglings they don't. What's different?
zerglings are countered by buildings
(walloff)
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On August 20 2013 17:50 Grumbels wrote:
Saying that warpgates make gateway units weaker is like saying larva makes zerglings weaker. Nobody thinks this way because it's backwards, the ability to swarm with zerglings is part of their strength, i.e. to know the strength of a unit you need to take into account not only its stats but also the way it's produced, its counters and so on, you need the full context of the game.
Edit: and I don't really want to say this because I'm repeating myself from two years ago, but:
Zerglings build and (with creep) move very quickly, hence they can virtually instantly bridge the gap to the enemy base and reinforce the attack. It's exactly like warpgate, except that for warpgate people use the word 'fundamental design problem' and for zerglings they don't. What's different?
Almost every unit in Starcraft 2 breaks (on a surface level) some core RTS principle, it's actually what makes the game interesting. The actual problem with warpgate might just be that it doesn't fit into the game too well. Or that it should be nerfed heavily. Or maybe it's fine, I don't know.
I don't want things like defender's advantage to go away, but all that's necessary for the game is that they exist, not that every single mechanic in the game affirms those principles. The game can be more complicated than that. Something can shake at its foundations without the building toppling down.
Amen
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Vatican City State431 Posts
On August 20 2013 16:27 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 16:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On August 20 2013 16:16 Entirety wrote:On August 20 2013 16:15 VayneAuthority wrote:On August 20 2013 16:13 Entirety wrote:On August 20 2013 16:03 VayneAuthority wrote:
the stupidest part design wise of protoss right now is easily the fact there is no choice when it comes to gateway or warpgate. Warpgate is simply stronger in every aspect. I don't get why they give the option to revert warpgate back to gateway but don't actually give you any reason to ever want a gateway over a warpgate?
Can we please get that decision to put some more skill into protoss because besides hitting forcefields and storms it is honestly lacking in that department Amazing players have done amazing things with Protoss. Have you hit perfect Forcefields in less than 0.5 seconds like MC? Have you displayed outstanding Blink micro like Puzzle? Have you used Warp Prisms constantly with DTs/Zealots until the enemy breaks like HerO? Have you controlled your Templars perfectly like PartinG? Have you reached 50+ kill Immortals with Warp Prism micro like HerO and Squirtle? Have you kited Marines/Zealots from one base to the other? Have you Storm Dropped like Rain while pulling off beautiful defensive macro? Have you forced 2 spores per base and killed 15 drones + 4 queens with 6 Phoenix? Have you killed 10+ marines with a single oracle? There is not a single player on this planet that can play well enough for Protoss mastery... I was expecting a useful reply and I get this instead, sigh its like the b.net forums damit All you got out of that was the last paragraph, really? The fact that warpgates are 100% superior to gateways means that Protoss doesn't require enough skill. Right. well no country written down, so I'm just gonna chalk you up to being from Romania. Huh? Is that a really weird racist comment? Or am I missing something?
Last time I checked romanian is not a race...
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I haven't watched SC2 in a while but watching Taeja lose to Kas in TvT and then beat him as Protoss in PvT really seems kind of ridiculous. It's almost as if the key to winning TvT is pick Protoss. Made me feel pretty bad watching that.
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On August 21 2013 01:24 SlixSC wrote:
I haven't watched SC2 in a while but watching Taeja lose to Kas in TvT and then beat him as Protoss in PvT really seems kind of ridiculous. It's almost as if the key to winning TvT is pick Protoss. Made me feel pretty bad watching that.
1. I haven't watched SC2 in a while.
2. I just watched 2 games of TaeJa.
3. Protoss imba in PvT.
???
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Warpgate has nothing to do with the unit strength, but it still ruins the "style" of the game by allowing units to bypass a choke for relatively low investment (a warp prism). Such abilities kill off strategic play in a supposed RTS.
Reaver drops in BW required skill and were exciting; Zealot "forward warp-ins" and harrassment is mostly no-skill-a-moving and boring to watch.
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On August 21 2013 01:45 Rabiator wrote:
Warpgate has nothing to do with the unit strength, but it still ruins the "style" of the game by allowing units to bypass a choke for relatively low investment (a warp prism). Such abilities kill off strategic play in a supposed RTS.
fuck off with strategy, Starcraft is an RTA now. 
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On August 21 2013 01:24 SlixSC wrote:
I haven't watched SC2 in a while but watching Taeja lose to Kas in TvT and then beat him as Protoss in PvT really seems kind of ridiculous. It's almost as if the key to winning TvT is pick Protoss. Made me feel pretty bad watching that.
at least he still loses as Zerg vs Kas
Seriously, it's ladder and Taeja is a toptier player. Why shouldn't he be capable of winning games when offracing on the ladder?
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On August 21 2013 01:45 Rabiator wrote:
Warpgate has nothing to do with the unit strength, but it still ruins the "style" of the game by allowing units to bypass a choke for relatively low investment (a warp prism). Such abilities kill off strategic play in a supposed RTS.
Reaver drops in BW required skill and were exciting; Zealot "forward warp-ins" and harrassment is mostly no-skill-a-moving and boring to watch.
I would gladly get rid of warpgate if terran loses speedvacs. hurpdurp 4 marines and 2 marauders kill your entire mineral line in 2 seconds. Just as bad as zealot warp-ins. Can't have it both ways.
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On August 21 2013 01:58 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:45 Rabiator wrote:
Warpgate has nothing to do with the unit strength, but it still ruins the "style" of the game by allowing units to bypass a choke for relatively low investment (a warp prism). Such abilities kill off strategic play in a supposed RTS.
Reaver drops in BW required skill and were exciting; Zealot "forward warp-ins" and harrassment is mostly no-skill-a-moving and boring to watch. I would gladly get rid of warpgate if terran loses speedvacs. hurpdurp 4 marines and 2 marauders kill your entire mineral line in 2 seconds. Just as bad as zealot warp-ins. Can't have it both ways.
Fuck that, reactors have to go if warpgates go. If I have to take up way to much room in my base to make 2 zealots, terran does to.
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It's funny how they just can't seem to stop patching this damn game. The old adage is that you need time to let things shuffle out what is unfigured, what is overpowered. Time they still aren't giving to the game. It's funny, they patched the game like madmen in WoL, then when Zerg became broken they left it broken for ages, and now the same patch-happy madness continues. So...
New Zerg Unit: Imbaling
unique, can't be built, Z starts with it.
1k HP, 1k armor, move speed = molasses offcreep, 0 oncreep.
crackling attack speed, damage 5 +100 vs. Mechanical
Ability: Hop. Cooldown 2 hours. Makes the imbaling hop for a distance ~2x hatch creep radius.
Then maybe the patches can finally stop?
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so now they try ultralisk +50hp, Ok to their defence its still just testing phase,
they could add a tennis racket to the zealot np, its just testing phase but if they are seriously considdering adding this buff to the ultralisk in the real game, then wtf is going on
btw: i hate the protoss race, its awful
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On August 21 2013 01:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:45 Rabiator wrote:
Warpgate has nothing to do with the unit strength, but it still ruins the "style" of the game by allowing units to bypass a choke for relatively low investment (a warp prism). Such abilities kill off strategic play in a supposed RTS. fuck off with strategy, Starcraft is an RTA now.
Along with DotA and LoL it's part of the MOBS genre , Multiplayer Online Battle Scenarios. ^^ (I like the word, sue me )
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On August 21 2013 02:06 Coffee Zombie wrote:
It's funny how they just can't seem to stop patching this damn game. The old adage is that you need time to let things shuffle out what is unfigured, what is overpowered. Time they still aren't giving to the game. It's funny, they patched the game like madmen in WoL, then when Zerg became broken they left it broken for ages, and now the same patch-happy madness continues. So...
New Zerg Unit: Imbaling
unique, can't be built, Z starts with it.
1k HP, 1k armor, move speed = molasses offcreep, 0 oncreep.
crackling attack speed, damage 5 +100 vs. Mechanical
Ability: Hop. Cooldown 2 hours. Makes the imbaling hop for a distance ~2x hatch creep radius.
Then maybe the patches can finally stop?
wtf are you talking about? Since release (6months now) they had 3patches with the following change:
- spore crawler buff vs bio
- warp prism speed buff
- hellbat damage upgrade requirementf & banshee cloak cost buffed
Only not patching at all is less than this. They take their damn time for everything currently. But as you are so quick to compare this to WoL, here is a link to a typical WoL patch:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0
6changes
Or to a BW PATCH (patch 1.04 from 1998):
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Patches_1.01-1.07#Patch_1.02
way over 30changes
So much to "The old adage is that you need time to let things shuffle out ". BW didn't patch as regularily as SC2, but just as quick in the early days of it and when they patched they really reshuffled all cards.
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On August 21 2013 01:58 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:45 Rabiator wrote:
Warpgate has nothing to do with the unit strength, but it still ruins the "style" of the game by allowing units to bypass a choke for relatively low investment (a warp prism). Such abilities kill off strategic play in a supposed RTS.
Reaver drops in BW required skill and were exciting; Zealot "forward warp-ins" and harrassment is mostly no-skill-a-moving and boring to watch. I would gladly get rid of warpgate if terran loses speedvacs. hurpdurp 4 marines and 2 marauders kill your entire mineral line in 2 seconds. Just as bad as zealot warp-ins. Can't have it both ways.
You have to trade off "equal things", so getting rid of Warpgate would mean the Reactor is gone for Terrans ... but then Zerg needs to lose its Production speed boost too and you would have to take out Inject Larva ... which is also the economic speed boost for Zerg, so you also need to take out the MULE and Chronoboost.
Trading a mechanic against units doesnt work, but taking out all economic and production speed boosts would actually improve the game by A LOT.
On August 21 2013 02:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 01:58 VayneAuthority wrote:On August 21 2013 01:45 Rabiator wrote:
Warpgate has nothing to do with the unit strength, but it still ruins the "style" of the game by allowing units to bypass a choke for relatively low investment (a warp prism). Such abilities kill off strategic play in a supposed RTS.
Reaver drops in BW required skill and were exciting; Zealot "forward warp-ins" and harrassment is mostly no-skill-a-moving and boring to watch. I would gladly get rid of warpgate if terran loses speedvacs. hurpdurp 4 marines and 2 marauders kill your entire mineral line in 2 seconds. Just as bad as zealot warp-ins. Can't have it both ways. Fuck that, reactors have to go if warpgates go. If I have to take up way to much room in my base to make 2 zealots, terran does to.
Since you need to take out the Zerg production speed boosts and the whole other rats tail as well you wont have the economy to produce the usual SC2 crapton of units. As a result you wouldnt need as much space after all ...
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EPT
