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On August 26 2013 16:49 NarutO wrote:
Zergs still won most premier+major tournaments in Heart of the Swarm combined. More than Terran and especially a ton more than Protoss. You can discredit some tournaments for 'not having Protoss and Terran on the Zerg players level' but that would be a stupid argument once again. And no, I don't act like this because I think there's truth in what you say. I act like that because the stupidity in your posts is staggering. I could live with you having a different approach about balance than I do and disagreeing there, as I can talk to lots of people here and discuss with them even though they have a different opinion, but you are simply dumb.
Your posts are bad, you make up arbitary facts and discredit players. I think talking once to MMA doesn't make you an expert on this matter. I am very close to the scene and more pros than you probably and your statements are not only offensive but also wrong. I hope Scarlett never reads this, as its so dumb and discrediting. Saying that basically Bomber/MMA etc would all rape her if they wanted lol, stupidity.
Maybe , just maybe you could acknowledge that she's simply insanely good? Reaching top 16 GM in Korea, constantly beating down good players. I really don't understand why you would discredit one foreigner that seems to be good and hot right now. Naniwa vs INnoVation - please explain how that happened, just out of curiosity. Was INnovation tired? Didn't want to advance? Maybe TvP is just imba? What is it. Maybe INnoVation is gay and has a crush on Naniwa and didn't manage to beat him down due to this?
"Maybe , just maybe you could acknowledge that she's simply insanely good?"
this is what I said.
The guy I replied to said if a non korean can win against a korean it must be alright
I answered, that her ZvT is on korean level, if not above.
"Saying that basically Bomber/MMA etc would all rape her if they wanted lol, stupidity."
I never said this. What I say is that MMA obviously didnt play well in all his matches and that he obivously didnt play quite well offensive against scarlett. Why? He almost never harrassed, the few times when he did it was poor execution.
I also said that she gave Alive something he had to deal with when she stated that "he will be an easy win". He had to give his very best to prove this being wrong. These are mental things that do play a role in SC2 big time. Just watch idra issues vs demuslim. Idra couldnt deal with him being exposed by demuslim on stream and he left ladder matches against him.
Scarlett won 2/4 games therse. While I quite much reckon her achievements, things can be explained quite ordinarily. Same applies to Jaedong btw. I don't reduce her achievements this way.
Maru is what I missed out: He obviously also didnt prepare for Scarlett at all (foreigner/girl advantage) and most likely has not been considering this match as being one of his important ones at all.
plz stop trying to quote me wrong
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On August 26 2013 16:31 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 16:26 krooked wrote:
You do realize scarlett is literally a guy that dresses and acts like a girl because he wish he was one? Like, no offense to her/him or transgendered people in general, but your arguments are kinda laughable. About the current TvZ balance, I think certain aspects goes in favor of Z and others in favor of T.
Right now, with widowmines being so hard to play against, it is certaintly T favored in the end, that I am sure of. But its not gamebreakingly bad. I hope it gets changed, but the way I see it, it can be "bypassed" given enough skill. The problem of course is that it requires more from the zerg than the terran. But one can argue that this occurs in other matchups as well, so I'm not sure how serious we should take it. In the end all we can do is wait and see. "You do realize scarlett is literally a guy that dresses and acts like a girl because he wish he was one?" "but your arguments are kinda laughable" please ban for this guy. Off topic and unecessary offenses. "Right now, with widowmines being so hard to play against, it is certaintly T favored in the end, that I am sure of." Now you even confirm what I basically say. I quite much doubt I will continue to debate on TL as the level of discussion is not mature enaugh. I gave you detailled information which factors Scarlett was probably able to benefit from. If you dont believe this, better go to church instead of science or give a good reason why anything that I said should be wrong. But stop acting like a 16 year old child that you probably are. Laughable is you that is way below my level.
Woah, jumping on the good ol' horse of morality are we? You went there, not me. Scarlett is, at the end of the day, a guy. That's just how it is. I don't care, I am completely fine with it, but your arguments are just ridiculous. NarutO already wrote a pretty good post owning you, but I'll add to it:
Your post has nothing to do with science. Its you completely guessing on how her opponent thought. You say she wins games because players get mad at her, and she loses because players are being gentlemen. Its just completely ridiculous.
edit: How much did bomber harass JD in the finals? He solely did parade pushes, more or less. Very little harassment. Did bomber have too much respect for JD because of his BW accolades, but at the same time, he was aware that he had to defend eSF teams honour and therefore played at his best level? Did the two mental states clash, and the eSF vs KeSPA battle won?
Nobody is saying mental states etc doesn't matter, but you are reading way too much into it. And its just guesswork. And not science.
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On August 26 2013 16:56 hearters wrote:
There is only one thing that is imbalanced in ZvT / TvZ.
Marines.
So I think blizzard should buff something zerg that is "good" against marines and make it better. Ultras. Maybe +1 armor with the +50hp will be helpful. Marauders and immortals would still rape ultras. Ultras would actually be cost-effective against marines, considering their place in the tech tree and their 50s build time.
I always consider it hearthwarming to see the zerg support for giving thor ground attack splash damage. At least I think that is what you mean considering the place in the tech tree of thors and zerglings?
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On August 26 2013 17:02 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 16:58 bo1b wrote:
Marines aren't the problem that zergs are having. At least it isn't for me.
The problem I'd say isn't even getting to upgrades, it's microing against steadily increasing numbers of widowmines. It's not too difficult to micro against a few widowmines, but once theres like 7-8 or even more it becomes stupidly difficult to split lings/banes/mutas. Well, it's not that hard to beat widow mines. Build roaches or roach/hydra or swarm hosts. Mineproblem solved.
Doing that invites a whole heap of other problems though, like drops, or a massive bio ball that simply plows through the roach/hydra force.
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I'm not a pro player but I've been playing blizzard RTS for around 16-17 years and have always been pretty consistently in the top of the ladder rankings. I dunno about formatting my post correctly but there's a couple things I've observed playing HoTS for a couple months now as a zerg player.
ZvT - this match up feels very difficult as a zerg player, the new widow mine unit feels like it offers far too much power for the amount of effort it takes to handle the unit. Often times it's quite easy to lose the game to a single mine shot that will devastate an entire pack of lings or banes. The part I feel is unfair is that this happens automatically from a unit that's hidden unless you bring detection out and scan the area, even then the mines have pretty decent range and the rest of the zerg army moves too quickly compared to the speed of an overseer so you often come out behind when engaging widow mines as a rule. The fact they cost 75/25 is also quite difficult to accept considering their investment is negligible compared to the profit a single shot can give. As a zerg player it feels like terran has a unit that gets to burrow and shoot out banelings - repeatedly, without any micro needed beyond simply burrowing it in the first place. The mine isn't really the core of the problem though, it comes down to mid-late game when terran is able to keep presenting wave after wave of highly efficient units with very little investment in terms of macro, simply hotkeying all your barracks to a single hotkey and pressing a single key will train 15-20 units at once, on top of this terran can queue up additional waves of units past the first so there's little punishing them for "missing" a production cycle past the first. This problem is also seen with the mule mechanic, terran can expand with impunity often late game because of their ability to simply drop multiple mules at once and recoup any loses they might experience by having the expansion killed even if it is killed almost immediately after. The issue is that there's really nothing to punish terran players for not using command center energy in the mid-late game. On top of all of this is the issue that terran doesn't need gas to be effective vs zerg, often times you'll see top pros in the mid-late game floating 1000+ gas simply because they don't need it which compounds the issue of muling since all you really need to do late game as terran is land a fourth base and use all your orbital command energy on mules and you've put yourself right back into the game even if you're behind and even if the zerg immediately reacts you've already recouped your loses due to how quickly 8-12 mules can mine at once. All of these things together make it extremely difficult to keep up with a terran late game as a zerg player since all of their actions are much more efficient than yours, couple that with their units being more efficient in general and you've got a recipe for a matchup that feels like an uphill climb.
Suggestions:
-Widow mine price increase - this unit is incredibly powerful vs zerg and only costs 75/25 which feels far too cheap for it's power level and required adjustments in game play.
-Increase the gas cost of 3/3 for bio units, this upgrade often just ends games and terran really have no reason to not get it as the rest of their army is relatively gas cheap. This would also help slightly with the whole gas stockpiling you see later on from terrans.
-Mule cooldown timer, this would still allow terrans to drop many mules at a location but it would force them to spend more effort to do so.
- Overseer speed increase, often these lag behind your forces and you take mine shots - if the zerg is prepared to try and handle a strategy by getting detection it would be reasonable to make the detection efficient.
- Infestation pit no longer required to upgrade to Hive - zerg need to have upgrades to stay relevant vs terran late game but there's often no window of opportunity to upgrade to Hive in an even match. You see many pro zergs die once terran hits 3/3 simply because they're still on 2/2 and with the constant pressure there's really no opportunity to expend the resources to get to hive and get all these upgrades.
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On August 26 2013 17:03 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 16:49 NarutO wrote:
Zergs still won most premier+major tournaments in Heart of the Swarm combined. More than Terran and especially a ton more than Protoss. You can discredit some tournaments for 'not having Protoss and Terran on the Zerg players level' but that would be a stupid argument once again. And no, I don't act like this because I think there's truth in what you say. I act like that because the stupidity in your posts is staggering. I could live with you having a different approach about balance than I do and disagreeing there, as I can talk to lots of people here and discuss with them even though they have a different opinion, but you are simply dumb.
Your posts are bad, you make up arbitary facts and discredit players. I think talking once to MMA doesn't make you an expert on this matter. I am very close to the scene and more pros than you probably and your statements are not only offensive but also wrong. I hope Scarlett never reads this, as its so dumb and discrediting. Saying that basically Bomber/MMA etc would all rape her if they wanted lol, stupidity.
Maybe , just maybe you could acknowledge that she's simply insanely good? Reaching top 16 GM in Korea, constantly beating down good players. I really don't understand why you would discredit one foreigner that seems to be good and hot right now. Naniwa vs INnoVation - please explain how that happened, just out of curiosity. Was INnovation tired? Didn't want to advance? Maybe TvP is just imba? What is it. Maybe INnoVation is gay and has a crush on Naniwa and didn't manage to beat him down due to this?
"Maybe , just maybe you could acknowledge that she's simply insanely good?" this is what I said. The guy I replied to said if a non korean can win against a korean it must be alright I answered, that her ZvT is on korean level, if not above. "Saying that basically Bomber/MMA etc would all rape her if they wanted lol, stupidity." I never said this. What I say is that MMA obviously didnt play well in all his matches and that he obivously didnt play quite well offensive against scarlett. Why? He almost never harrassed, the few times when he did it was poor execution. I also said that she gave Alive something he had to deal with when she stated that "he will be an easy win". He had to give his very best to prove this being wrong. These are mental things that do play a role in SC2 big time. Just watch idra issues vs demuslim. Idra couldnt deal with him being exposed by him on stream and he left ladder matches against him. plz stop trying to quote me wrong
no one is quoting you wrong, you went full retard and people are calling you on your bullshit
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You said MMA lost to her because he went easy on her (being a woman). Implying that he could have crushed her if he was 'serious' about it. Stop trying to wiggle your way out. You act like I hold a grudge against you (which I don't) but given the reactions you got from seemingly everyone that posted after you, don't you realize that your post was stupid? 
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He's like a less sociopathic version of ponera tbh. Posts stupid shit and then complains when people call him out
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On August 26 2013 17:04 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 17:02 Big J wrote:On August 26 2013 16:58 bo1b wrote:
Marines aren't the problem that zergs are having. At least it isn't for me.
The problem I'd say isn't even getting to upgrades, it's microing against steadily increasing numbers of widowmines. It's not too difficult to micro against a few widowmines, but once theres like 7-8 or even more it becomes stupidly difficult to split lings/banes/mutas. Well, it's not that hard to beat widow mines. Build roaches or roach/hydra or swarm hosts. Mineproblem solved. Doing that invites a whole heap of other problems though, like drops, or a massive bio ball that simply plows through the roach/hydra force.
you mean adapting to the mine means you'll lack marinecounters? 
Not saying the marine causes imbalance, because the game has been balanced around its powerlevel. But 90% of all unit combos in vT can be quickly discarded with "mass marine counters this".
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Well, stupid is to say a matchup is balanced, because a non korean was able to beat koreans, what I replied to.
Stupid is also to say that Scarlett in fact is a guy instead of a girl.
There is nothing stupid in what I said. All these things that I wrote play a role in mental 1on1.
The inner team match MMA vs Scarlett is one of the most obvious.
MMA never would have proxy marine rushed her. If he cannot face her in a fair macrogame then he would rather lose than cheesing his teammate (that is a girl) out.
MMA probably would have acted differently if he had faced a superior other zerg player and MAYBE would have tried to cheese.
Also:
When it comes to boys vs girls in sports, there are always mental differences. In a man vs man or woman vs woman fight there is always more competition involved than in intergender fights. It is basic psychology. Woman fight against woman to impress men, and the other way round. You can not impress a girl in fighting it to death. This of course is subtile and not matter of the decision of the individual. But I guess none of you guys have ever listened to a semester 1 psychology lecture.
And yes this is science.
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On August 26 2013 17:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 17:04 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2013 17:02 Big J wrote:On August 26 2013 16:58 bo1b wrote:
Marines aren't the problem that zergs are having. At least it isn't for me.
The problem I'd say isn't even getting to upgrades, it's microing against steadily increasing numbers of widowmines. It's not too difficult to micro against a few widowmines, but once theres like 7-8 or even more it becomes stupidly difficult to split lings/banes/mutas. Well, it's not that hard to beat widow mines. Build roaches or roach/hydra or swarm hosts. Mineproblem solved. Doing that invites a whole heap of other problems though, like drops, or a massive bio ball that simply plows through the roach/hydra force. you mean adapting to the mine means you'll lack marinecounters? Not saying the marine causes imbalance, because the game has been balanced around its powerlevel. But 90% of all unit combos in vT can be quickly discarded with "mass marine counters this".
It's not the marine specifically that causes problems vs roach/hydra comps. It's more like roaches just don't have enough dps past a certain point, so medivacs start scaling super well, and marauders just chew threw roaches. Hydra's do very nice damage but are immobile and really quite weak so both marines and medivacs and mines are able to deal with them pretty effectively.
The bio mine style still deals with roach/hydra very well, it just needs time to get to a certain size.
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On August 26 2013 17:16 LSN wrote:
Well, stupid is to say a matchup is balanced, because a non korean was able to beat koreans, what I replied to.
Stupid is also to say that Scarlett in fact is a guy instead of a girl.
There is nothing stupid in what I said. All these things that I wrote play a role in mental 1on1.
The inner team match MMA vs Scarlett is one of the most obvious.
MMA never would have proxy marine rushed her. If he cannot face her in a fair macrogame then he would rather lose than cheesing his teammate (that is a girl) out.
MMA probably would have acted differently if he had faced a superior other zerg player.
When it comes to boys vs girls in sports, there are always mental differences. In a man vs man or woman vs woman fight there is always more competition involved than in intergender fights.
I don't really see what any of this has to do with balance but I'm curious how you know that MMA adjusted his play because he was facing a girl? Did he specifically say this somewhere in an interview? Don't really think it's reasonable to say you understand the workings of someone else's mind when you well..don't.
It's also pretty insulting to scarlett by suggesting that she had an easier time because of her gender, she was obviously playing the best ZvT in this tournament and shouldn't be discredited because of your theory of the inner workings of someone's mind who you don't even know.
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You put me wrong again.
I replied to the guy who said that if a non korean can win against a korean that balance must be alright.
I said that it is not matter of balance but alot of factors play a role why scarlett achieved what she did.
MMA didnt adjust his play. Adjustment happens on a subtile psychological level that he cannot control himself. It is still a part of his decisionmaking that he has no influence on the the most extend. It is basic psychology/sociology lecture semester 1.
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Its actually insane that the topic of Scarlett's gender has come to the point where people make up arguments based on the fact that she is addressed as a girl, even though she openly admits to being born a male. Its actually insane.
And again LSN, you are just guessing. You are just making chit up as you go. Fine, have your opinion. But you say nothing that makes any of us want to agree. Because you're guessing and assuming.
^ LSN http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_suppression_techniques "basic lecture semester 1" hahaha are you being serious?
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I myself study international finance. Psychology is a major part of finance.
People in finance have substantial and technical analysis. In technical analysis you have e.g. certain patterns to evaluate charts. If I'd explain this to you, you all would say "it is laughable". Some things are in fact. But they work out in certain situations. And yes it is science.
@ post above me:
In nature, girls are not the natural opponents of boys. You can see this when watching an animal documentation on TV. I suggest BBC or whatever. Humen are only sophisticated animals. If you believe ANY individual that is not a 100% sadistic gay can depose this you are wrong. These things ALWAYS play a role when people face in 1on1. Being teammates plays a role, boy vs girls plays a role, etc.
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On August 26 2013 17:19 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 17:13 Big J wrote:On August 26 2013 17:04 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2013 17:02 Big J wrote:On August 26 2013 16:58 bo1b wrote:
Marines aren't the problem that zergs are having. At least it isn't for me.
The problem I'd say isn't even getting to upgrades, it's microing against steadily increasing numbers of widowmines. It's not too difficult to micro against a few widowmines, but once theres like 7-8 or even more it becomes stupidly difficult to split lings/banes/mutas. Well, it's not that hard to beat widow mines. Build roaches or roach/hydra or swarm hosts. Mineproblem solved. Doing that invites a whole heap of other problems though, like drops, or a massive bio ball that simply plows through the roach/hydra force. you mean adapting to the mine means you'll lack marinecounters? Not saying the marine causes imbalance, because the game has been balanced around its powerlevel. But 90% of all unit combos in vT can be quickly discarded with "mass marine counters this". It's not the marine specifically that causes problems vs roach/hydra comps. It's more like roaches just don't have enough dps past a certain point, so medivacs start scaling super well, and marauders just chew threw roaches. Hydra's do very nice damage but are immobile and really quite weak so both marines and medivacs and mines are able to deal with them pretty effectively. The bio mine style still deals with roach/hydra very well, it just needs time to get to a certain size.
the thing is, the marine on paper has more dps vs armored than the marauder. Only the 1natural armor of roaches gives the marauder more dps than the marine has vs roaches. After armor applied (and with stim):
marauder: 19dps vs roach
2marines: 17.5dps vs roach
Now add to that the dps vs hydras:
marauder: 10dps vs hydra
2marines: 21dps vs hydra
and it's getting pretty obvious what unit you want many of and what unit you only want for concussive shells and a bit more dps/HP vs roaches (and even the tanking isn't true that much, because marauders naturally stand at the back and often get killed after the marines).
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On August 26 2013 17:26 LSN wrote:
I myself study international finance. Psychology is a major part of finance.
People in finance have substantial and technical analysis. In technical analysis you have e.g. certain patterns to evaluate charts. If I'd explain this to you, you all would say "it is laughable". Some things are in fact. But they work out in certain situations. And yes it is science.
The thing is I could go and make an argument that MMA played harder vs scarlett than he would of otherwise because she is his teammate and I don't know if you've ever been on a professional gaming team but jockeying for position and proving your place on a team is a very important thing especially in a game like SC2 where if your results aren't great you can easily be cut/benched/etc. In the end it's all opinions which don't really matter so it's a moot point IMO.
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The thing is, that's like me saying I have a degree in nutrition and then going on to say that the reason Scarlett won / lost those games was because of how she ate. Then I would go into lengthy text explaining how important correct nutrition is for mental and physical capacity, and how that affects performance in starcraft.
Now the issue with that is: Despite all my knowledge, it is all utterly bullshit! It doesn't matter at all in what we are discussing, no matter how much I want it to.
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On August 26 2013 17:04 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 16:56 hearters wrote:
There is only one thing that is imbalanced in ZvT / TvZ.
Marines.
So I think blizzard should buff something zerg that is "good" against marines and make it better. Ultras. Maybe +1 armor with the +50hp will be helpful. Marauders and immortals would still rape ultras. Ultras would actually be cost-effective against marines, considering their place in the tech tree and their 50s build time. I always consider it hearthwarming to see the zerg support for giving thor ground attack splash damage. At least I think that is what you mean considering the place in the tech tree of thors and zerglings?
Thors are meant to be good vs ultras. Ultras are meant to be good vs marines. Hard to see a difference?
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This thread has descended to incredible depths of stupidity. I mean, coming up with pseudoscientific bullshit about sex and gender in a thread where great ZvT was played? Post hoc rationalisation of results galore!
LSN, I suggest you stop claiming expertise in psychology and genetic causes of behavior. It's obvious that your understanding of either field is skin-deep, if even that. And now you've gone into animal behavior. Do you realize how incredibly diverse animal behavior is? A PRIMATOLOGIST who's devoted 30 years of his life would not make a claim like you just did, and you're an International Finance (MBA? I'm just guessing) who's dipped his toes into Finance psychology and making incredible, sweeping claims.
And if I might bring this back, you're applying this utter nonsense to Scarlett, who honestly does not deserve any of that crap. She's played damned well this tournament.
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EPT
