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On August 12 2013 19:50 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 18:53 Big J wrote:
Terran isn't really underrepresented at GM level, they only have a few players less than zerg on most servers. Someone has to be the least played race. global GMs in %: 33% Zerg, 40% Protoss, 28% Terran same picture on every server. can we just shrug this off? i'm not sure.
You posted this - marginally rephrased - several times now. What, I mean what exactly, do you want? It makes no sense whatsoever to single out GM players. They are a tiny minority and their ladder games aren't broadcast.
Two meaningful approaches for balancing. View Starcraft as a sport/viewer entertainment, then we balance around what we see in the biggest tournaments.. Or view it as Farmville with aliens, then we balance around all levels of play including the soccer moms, not just the ~0.0002% or so who happen to be in GM.
Further reasons to not balance around GM:
- the best players might chose to train privately or in team facilities instead of using it
- players might be unwilling to show their best strategies on ladder
- hacks and win trading
- the Idra effect; losing during the heyday of Infestor/Broodlord to about every protoss he met, did that tell us more about balance or rather about GM league
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Russian Federation32 Posts
On August 12 2013 20:09 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 19:58 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2013 19:42 Elldar wrote:On August 12 2013 17:16 gengka wrote:On August 12 2013 16:50 Entirety wrote:On August 12 2013 14:55 beg wrote:
now that we seem to talk about how imba terran is, i may try to ask the following question again.
why do you think terrans are extremely underrepresented in every GM league? i personally dont have an answer. and i never felt that terran was underpowered (i'm terran). so it confuses me. I would assume that is because Terran is really hard to play properly. Thus, average Terrans tend to struggle more while top-tier Korean Terrans make the race look utterly broken (see INnoVation vs. Z). Rabiator, I respect your opinion but talking about SC2's game design really derails this thread from its original purpose: the discussion of the game's current balance. This. Terran is just too mechanically demanding. We might be able to perform flawlessly sometimes and take out zergs and protosses during 200/200 lategames (man that gives maximum satisfaction!) but to consistently doing it is just too hard. I think unless we have a strict training regime like the korean teams, or else we just won't hit that level. Sjow beat life in DreamHack and sjow got like 150 apm if I recall correctly so saying that terran is so much harder to play with is utterly bullshit. Why there is less terran in gm you must look at when the game ends and then you have something to go on probably terran will most certainly have an 80% win rate after 20 minutes since bio + mine is so easy late game unless zerg got a lead from the mid game. The difficulty to play has nothing to do with apm, I don't see any relation between the GM Terran population and the average length of the games, and Hive armies are still far superior to bio (see aLive vs Scarlett, WCS AM for instance). I disagree, at the top level of any competition - be it Nascar or Olympics - the differences at the top are razor thin. Being faster than the opponent by even a couple of truly effective APM (a number that we cannot yet calculate) could be like being a couple of seconds faster. That one more drop. Or that one more split. Or that one more target-fire that you can do over your opponent, the better you are as a player. Perhaps there is a diminishing return - Example: Polt v. Taeja - Very even APM - Polt may even have been a tad bit slower. But both players at very high APM nearing upto 300 (and they're not Zerg!(make 50 lings, make 20 banelings, mad APM)). Polt still won as a result of decision-making and unit positioning. Or rather that both mechanical and tactical skill requirements are responsible for difficulty to play. /edit Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 19:42 Elldar wrote:On August 12 2013 17:16 gengka wrote:On August 12 2013 16:50 Entirety wrote:On August 12 2013 14:55 beg wrote:
now that we seem to talk about how imba terran is, i may try to ask the following question again.
why do you think terrans are extremely underrepresented in every GM league? i personally dont have an answer. and i never felt that terran was underpowered (i'm terran). so it confuses me. I would assume that is because Terran is really hard to play properly. Thus, average Terrans tend to struggle more while top-tier Korean Terrans make the race look utterly broken (see INnoVation vs. Z). Rabiator, I respect your opinion but talking about SC2's game design really derails this thread from its original purpose: the discussion of the game's current balance. This. Terran is just too mechanically demanding. We might be able to perform flawlessly sometimes and take out zergs and protosses during 200/200 lategames (man that gives maximum satisfaction!) but to consistently doing it is just too hard. I think unless we have a strict training regime like the korean teams, or else we just won't hit that level. Sjow beat life in DreamHack and sjow got like 150 apm if I recall correctly so saying that terran is so much harder to play with is utterly bullshit. Why there is less terran in gm you must look at when the game ends and then you have something to go on probably terran will most certainly have an 80% win rate after 20 minutes since bio + mine is so easy late game unless zerg got a lead from the mid game. Sjow beating life is an outlier. Less Terrans in 'diamond' to 'GM' in ladder. Less Terran in foreign (non-Korean) Professional players. Strong representation in Korean Professional players. Strong representation not an outlier, Maru in OSL, Polt in WCS AM, high placement for Taeja, Alive from WCS AM, even decent (relative to the foreigners) placement for Mvp and MMA. This means that Terran skill-to-reward curve definitely is not similar to Protoss or Zerg races. TLDR: Sjow will not beat Scarlett; hell not even Jaedong.
Yeah, of course Life is much worse than Scarlett and Jaedong, such a scrub.
Also the Terran race is super hard in comparision to Zergs and Protoss. Terran Elite Go Go.
And they are even have like 5% less players in GM than Zergs - so I guess we need to buff them.
Gonna help dat strugling honorable elite race.
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On August 12 2013 20:28 Novel wrote:
Yeah, of course Life is much worse than Scarlett and Jaedong, such a scrub.
Also the Terran race is super hard in comparision to Zergs and Protoss. Terran Elite Go Go.
And they are even have like 5% less players in GM than Zergs - so I guess we need to buff them.
Gonna help dat strugling honorable elite race.
You know very well that if Life performs at his standard level, he smashes SjoW—and any non-Korean Terran for that matter—easily, so why are you pretending you ignore this?
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On August 12 2013 20:22 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 19:50 beg wrote:On August 12 2013 18:53 Big J wrote:
Terran isn't really underrepresented at GM level, they only have a few players less than zerg on most servers. Someone has to be the least played race. global GMs in %: 33% Zerg, 40% Protoss, 28% Terran same picture on every server. can we just shrug this off? i'm not sure. You posted this - marginally rephrased - several times now. What, I mean what exactly, do you want? It makes no sense whatsoever to single out GM players. They are a tiny minority and their ladder games aren't broadcast. Two meaningful approaches for balancing. View Starcraft as a sport/viewer entertainment, then we balance around what we see in the biggest tournaments.. Or view it as Farmville with aliens, then we balance around all levels of play including the soccer moms, not just the ~0.0002% or so who happen to be in GM. Further reasons to not balance around GM: - the best players might chose to train privately or in team facilities instead of using it - players might be unwilling to show their best strategies on ladder - hacks and win trading - the Idra effect; losing during the heyday of Infestor/Broodlord to about every protoss he met, did that tell us more about balance or rather about GM league
- You can't just create an effect because of 1 anecdote.
- hacks at GM level is not very common - more abundant in Masters and below. Hacker mechanics are generally also lower than players who actually practice.
- players hide behind barcode names ||||||||||||||||| so they can use their best strategies and polish them on ladder
- GM definitely is not relevant compared to tournament results. If I had to rank skill level it would be so - GM (a non-hacker, non-rager serious, hard-working player) =< Code B < Code A < Code S
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United Kingdom83 Posts
On August 12 2013 20:22 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 19:50 beg wrote:On August 12 2013 18:53 Big J wrote:
Terran isn't really underrepresented at GM level, they only have a few players less than zerg on most servers. Someone has to be the least played race. global GMs in %: 33% Zerg, 40% Protoss, 28% Terran same picture on every server. can we just shrug this off? i'm not sure. You posted this - marginally rephrased - several times now. What, I mean what exactly, do you want? It makes no sense whatsoever to single out GM players. They are a tiny minority and their ladder games aren't broadcast. Two meaningful approaches for balancing. View Starcraft as a sport/viewer entertainment, then we balance around what we see in the biggest tournaments.. Or view it as Farmville with aliens, then we balance around all levels of play including the soccer moms, not just the ~0.0002% or so who happen to be in GM. Further reasons to not balance around GM: - the best players might chose to train privately or in team facilities instead of using it - players might be unwilling to show their best strategies on ladder - hacks and win trading - the Idra effect; losing during the heyday of Infestor/Broodlord to about every protoss he met, did that tell us more about balance or rather about GM league
im not sure what you mean by the idra effect, pvz was 50/50 in wings of liberty because of brood lord infestor and immortal sentry both were equally broken and both races had something to whine about legitimately.
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Russian Federation32 Posts
On August 12 2013 20:32 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 20:28 Novel wrote:
Yeah, of course Life is much worse than Scarlett and Jaedong, such a scrub.
Also the Terran race is super hard in comparision to Zergs and Protoss. Terran Elite Go Go.
And they are even have like 5% less players in GM than Zergs - so I guess we need to buff them.
Gonna help dat strugling honorable elite race. You know very well that if Life performs at his standard level, he smashes SjoW—and any non-Korean Terran for that matter—easily, so why are you pretending you ignore this?
If you remember that game - Life wasn't actually played particularly bad. It was Sjow who played that recently popular MMMM style. He was playing pretty good, no argue.
But the thing is - you don't need to be mechanically superb player to have success with MMMM. And no way I'll put Sjow higher than Life in terms of mechanics.
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On August 12 2013 20:42 Novel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 20:32 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2013 20:28 Novel wrote:
Yeah, of course Life is much worse than Scarlett and Jaedong, such a scrub.
Also the Terran race is super hard in comparision to Zergs and Protoss. Terran Elite Go Go.
And they are even have like 5% less players in GM than Zergs - so I guess we need to buff them.
Gonna help dat strugling honorable elite race. You know very well that if Life performs at his standard level, he smashes SjoW—and any non-Korean Terran for that matter—easily, so why are you pretending you ignore this? If you remember that game - Life wasn't actually played particularly bad. It was Sjow who played that recently popular MMMM style. He was playing pretty good, no argue. But the thing is - you don't need to be mechanically superb player to have success with MMMM. And no way I'll put Sjow higher than Life in terms of mechanics.
Life threw that game man, go watch it again.
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On August 12 2013 20:42 Novel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 20:32 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2013 20:28 Novel wrote:
Yeah, of course Life is much worse than Scarlett and Jaedong, such a scrub.
Also the Terran race is super hard in comparision to Zergs and Protoss. Terran Elite Go Go.
And they are even have like 5% less players in GM than Zergs - so I guess we need to buff them.
Gonna help dat strugling honorable elite race. You know very well that if Life performs at his standard level, he smashes SjoW—and any non-Korean Terran for that matter—easily, so why are you pretending you ignore this? If you remember that game - Life wasn't actually played particularly bad. It was Sjow who played that recently popular MMMM style. He was playing pretty good, no argue. But the thing is - you don't need to be mechanically superb player to have success with MMMM. And no way I'll put Sjow higher than Life in terms of mechanics.
He made several uncharacteristic blunders such as headbutting his lings into Hellbats, and allowing 2 Mines to constantly pick off his rallies in the Star Station game.
If mechanics don't matter that much with 4M, explain the difference between Bogus and players like Bomber, aLive or ForGG?
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On August 12 2013 19:58 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 19:42 Elldar wrote:On August 12 2013 17:16 gengka wrote:On August 12 2013 16:50 Entirety wrote:On August 12 2013 14:55 beg wrote:
now that we seem to talk about how imba terran is, i may try to ask the following question again.
why do you think terrans are extremely underrepresented in every GM league? i personally dont have an answer. and i never felt that terran was underpowered (i'm terran). so it confuses me. I would assume that is because Terran is really hard to play properly. Thus, average Terrans tend to struggle more while top-tier Korean Terrans make the race look utterly broken (see INnoVation vs. Z). Rabiator, I respect your opinion but talking about SC2's game design really derails this thread from its original purpose: the discussion of the game's current balance. This. Terran is just too mechanically demanding. We might be able to perform flawlessly sometimes and take out zergs and protosses during 200/200 lategames (man that gives maximum satisfaction!) but to consistently doing it is just too hard. I think unless we have a strict training regime like the korean teams, or else we just won't hit that level. Sjow beat life in DreamHack and sjow got like 150 apm if I recall correctly so saying that terran is so much harder to play with is utterly bullshit. Why there is less terran in gm you must look at when the game ends and then you have something to go on probably terran will most certainly have an 80% win rate after 20 minutes since bio + mine is so easy late game unless zerg got a lead from the mid game. The difficulty to play has nothing to do with apm, I don't see any relation between the GM Terran population and the average length of the games, and Hive armies are still far superior to bio (see aLive vs Scarlett, WCS AM for instance).
you mean like in Jaedong vs Polt game2, Ultralisks/Infestor with 30supply advantage and 3-3 against 4M on 2-2, Polt coming back by straight forward combats?
You know very well that bio used to slap all over Ultralisk/Infestor armies in WoL once you got a few barracks with techlabs, and Ultralisk/Infestor armies aren't really stronger these days, due to how the infestor nerf and the ultra buff kind of equalize. The only thing that changed is that Terrans are now transitioning from Marine/Medivac/Mine into 4M, which is initially even weaker to ultralisks than Marine/Medivac/Tank was before adding marauders.
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On August 12 2013 20:22 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 19:50 beg wrote:On August 12 2013 18:53 Big J wrote:
Terran isn't really underrepresented at GM level, they only have a few players less than zerg on most servers. Someone has to be the least played race. global GMs in %: 33% Zerg, 40% Protoss, 28% Terran same picture on every server. can we just shrug this off? i'm not sure. You posted this - marginally rephrased - several times now. What, I mean what exactly, do you want? It makes no sense whatsoever to single out GM players. They are a tiny minority and their ladder games aren't broadcast. Two meaningful approaches for balancing. View Starcraft as a sport/viewer entertainment, then we balance around what we see in the biggest tournaments.. Or view it as Farmville with aliens, then we balance around all levels of play including the soccer moms, not just the ~0.0002% or so who happen to be in GM. Further reasons to not balance around GM: - the best players might chose to train privately or in team facilities instead of using it - players might be unwilling to show their best strategies on ladder - hacks and win trading - the Idra effect; losing during the heyday of Infestor/Broodlord to about every protoss he met, did that tell us more about balance or rather about GM league
let me tell you marginally rephrased what, i mean what exactly, i want.
i wanted opinions on the GM stats. never implying unbalance.
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On August 12 2013 20:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 20:42 Novel wrote:On August 12 2013 20:32 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2013 20:28 Novel wrote:
Yeah, of course Life is much worse than Scarlett and Jaedong, such a scrub.
Also the Terran race is super hard in comparision to Zergs and Protoss. Terran Elite Go Go.
And they are even have like 5% less players in GM than Zergs - so I guess we need to buff them.
Gonna help dat strugling honorable elite race. You know very well that if Life performs at his standard level, he smashes SjoW—and any non-Korean Terran for that matter—easily, so why are you pretending you ignore this? If you remember that game - Life wasn't actually played particularly bad. It was Sjow who played that recently popular MMMM style. He was playing pretty good, no argue. But the thing is - you don't need to be mechanically superb player to have success with MMMM. And no way I'll put Sjow higher than Life in terms of mechanics. He made several uncharacteristic blunders such as headbutting his lings into Hellbats, and allowing 2 Mines to constantly pick off his rallies in the Star Station game. If mechanics don't matter that much with 4M, explain the difference between Bogus and players like Bomber, aLive or ForGG?
#dwf
He said you don't need to be mechanically superb player to have success with MMMM
and u say If mechanics don't matter that much with 4M
??
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On August 12 2013 20:42 Novel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 20:32 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2013 20:28 Novel wrote:
Yeah, of course Life is much worse than Scarlett and Jaedong, such a scrub.
Also the Terran race is super hard in comparision to Zergs and Protoss. Terran Elite Go Go.
And they are even have like 5% less players in GM than Zergs - so I guess we need to buff them.
Gonna help dat strugling honorable elite race. You know very well that if Life performs at his standard level, he smashes SjoW—and any non-Korean Terran for that matter—easily, so why are you pretending you ignore this? If you remember that game - Life wasn't actually played particularly bad. It was Sjow who played that recently popular MMMM style. He was playing pretty good, no argue. But the thing is - you don't need to be mechanically superb player to have success with MMMM. And no way I'll put Sjow higher than Life in terms of mechanics.
1 match does not make one a TvZ master. Polt has lost to revival, so revival is better than Taeja. There, your complex logic at its best.
//edit
On August 12 2013 20:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 19:58 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2013 19:42 Elldar wrote:On August 12 2013 17:16 gengka wrote:On August 12 2013 16:50 Entirety wrote:On August 12 2013 14:55 beg wrote:
now that we seem to talk about how imba terran is, i may try to ask the following question again.
why do you think terrans are extremely underrepresented in every GM league? i personally dont have an answer. and i never felt that terran was underpowered (i'm terran). so it confuses me. I would assume that is because Terran is really hard to play properly. Thus, average Terrans tend to struggle more while top-tier Korean Terrans make the race look utterly broken (see INnoVation vs. Z). Rabiator, I respect your opinion but talking about SC2's game design really derails this thread from its original purpose: the discussion of the game's current balance. This. Terran is just too mechanically demanding. We might be able to perform flawlessly sometimes and take out zergs and protosses during 200/200 lategames (man that gives maximum satisfaction!) but to consistently doing it is just too hard. I think unless we have a strict training regime like the korean teams, or else we just won't hit that level. Sjow beat life in DreamHack and sjow got like 150 apm if I recall correctly so saying that terran is so much harder to play with is utterly bullshit. Why there is less terran in gm you must look at when the game ends and then you have something to go on probably terran will most certainly have an 80% win rate after 20 minutes since bio + mine is so easy late game unless zerg got a lead from the mid game. The difficulty to play has nothing to do with apm, I don't see any relation between the GM Terran population and the average length of the games, and Hive armies are still far superior to bio (see aLive vs Scarlett, WCS AM for instance). you mean like in Jaedong vs Polt game2, Ultralisks/Infestor with 30supply advantage and 3-3 against 4M on 2-2, Polt coming back by straight forward combats? You know very well that bio used to slap all over Ultralisk/Infestor armies in WoL once you got a few barracks with techlabs, and Ultralisk/Infestor armies aren't really stronger these days, due to how the infestor nerf and the ultra buff kind of equalize. The only thing that changed is that Terrans are now transitioning from Marine/Medivac/Mine into 4M, which is initially even weaker to ultralisks than Marine/Medivac/Tank was before adding marauders.
Scarlett vs Alive - Scarlett with around 30 supply disadvantage, but with brood tech. Made a fucking comeback cuz she's that good. Her harass and pressure forced Alive to push into a deathchoke where he lost all his army and the reinforcements were eaten piece-meal.
Actually, if there was proper analysis done - I would say that while the overall supply was definitely ahead for Jaedong - Army supply must not have been that ahead. Roughly equal army supply (since Polt really only lost SCVs for tons and tons of banes) and superior upgrades - you do the math.
Definitely closer army supply since Polt lost entire mineral line twice. I would reckon about 20-30 supply in workers killed?
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On August 12 2013 20:49 Big J wrote:
you mean like in Jaedong vs Polt game2, Ultralisks/Infestor with 30supply advantage and 3-3 against 4M on 2-2, Polt coming back by straight forward combats?
You know very well that bio used to slap all over Ultralisk/Infestor armies in WoL once you got a few barracks with techlabs, and Ultralisk/Infestor armies aren't really stronger these days, due to how the infestor nerf and the ultra buff kind of equalize. The only thing that changed is that Terrans are now transitioning from Marine/Medivac/Mine into 4M, which is initially even weaker to ultralisks than Marine/Medivac/Tank was before adding marauders.
Conveniently forgetting Polt had +25-30 army supply, cancelled in extremis the first broods, and did you see how awful Jaedong's charge was in the choke near his fourth? His engagement was completely disarranged. And Polt was on 3/3 for that fight, so why do you even mention the former upgrade advantage?
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Well, because of the poor results of zergs in the 3 WCS, i am starting to think about the zerg balance. Is very hard to kill terran using a Ultra/infestor/ling, out of creep they dont stand a chance vs a marauder heavy bio-ball, lings counter attacks are good, but terrans dont need that hard their svc's.
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Russian Federation32 Posts
On August 12 2013 20:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 20:42 Novel wrote:On August 12 2013 20:32 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2013 20:28 Novel wrote:
Yeah, of course Life is much worse than Scarlett and Jaedong, such a scrub.
Also the Terran race is super hard in comparision to Zergs and Protoss. Terran Elite Go Go.
And they are even have like 5% less players in GM than Zergs - so I guess we need to buff them.
Gonna help dat strugling honorable elite race. You know very well that if Life performs at his standard level, he smashes SjoW—and any non-Korean Terran for that matter—easily, so why are you pretending you ignore this? If you remember that game - Life wasn't actually played particularly bad. It was Sjow who played that recently popular MMMM style. He was playing pretty good, no argue. But the thing is - you don't need to be mechanically superb player to have success with MMMM. And no way I'll put Sjow higher than Life in terms of mechanics. He made several uncharacteristic blunders such as headbutting his lings into Hellbats, and allowing 2 Mines to constantly pick off his rallies in the Star Station game. If mechanics don't matter that much with 4M, explain the difference between Bogus and players like Bomber, aLive or ForGG?
About headbutting into hellbats - Sjow had Hellbats and marines in a clump, Life went for surround, Sjow, who had marines on different hotkey, pull them back - "headbutt". Doesn't think there was a way to engage it properly in given situation.
About mines on the map - you need to remember that this was happening when Life was bursting through Sjow's base. And you really can't leave your mutas in enemy base without attention (too fragile) and also you need to inject and do other stuff in your base. Sure it would be great if Life could get rid off mines (which also requres attention because Zergs do not have any easy ways to deal with it, like Observer+Stalker), but I doubt there are many chances that Life would do better in his "standart" form.
He didn't really threw this game. At least not worse than many other zergs throw it in a current metagame. There was too much T comebacks recently. Even last WCS AM Finals.
And about Innovation - I do not think he is THAT much better than other top tier Terrans in terms of ZvT. He have consistent top notch macro, he is patient, he isn't overextends. He is basically the first guy who perfectly adapted to current style. And I believe in the next 2 months we will see other top Terrans stepping up in terms of ZvT. It is already started.
Edit: I do not think that Sjow is better player than Life in TvZ matchup and in general. But what concern me is the fact that you can beat superior player (even in one given series) by doing standart play well enough. I would understand if that was some unscouted cheese or interesting build order, but it was standart Terran play.
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On August 12 2013 21:14 Novel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 20:47 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2013 20:42 Novel wrote:On August 12 2013 20:32 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2013 20:28 Novel wrote:
Yeah, of course Life is much worse than Scarlett and Jaedong, such a scrub.
Also the Terran race is super hard in comparision to Zergs and Protoss. Terran Elite Go Go.
And they are even have like 5% less players in GM than Zergs - so I guess we need to buff them.
Gonna help dat strugling honorable elite race. You know very well that if Life performs at his standard level, he smashes SjoW—and any non-Korean Terran for that matter—easily, so why are you pretending you ignore this? If you remember that game - Life wasn't actually played particularly bad. It was Sjow who played that recently popular MMMM style. He was playing pretty good, no argue. But the thing is - you don't need to be mechanically superb player to have success with MMMM. And no way I'll put Sjow higher than Life in terms of mechanics. He made several uncharacteristic blunders such as headbutting his lings into Hellbats, and allowing 2 Mines to constantly pick off his rallies in the Star Station game. If mechanics don't matter that much with 4M, explain the difference between Bogus and players like Bomber, aLive or ForGG? About headbutting into hellbats - Sjow had Hellbats and marines in a clump, Life went for surround, Sjow, who had marines on different hotkey, pull them back - "headbutt". Doesn't think there was a way to engage it properly in given situation. About mines on the map - you need to remember that this was happening when Life was busting throug Sjow's base. And you really can't leave your mutas in enemy base without attention (too fragile) and also you need to inject and do other stuff in your base. Sure it would be great if Life could get rid off mines (which also requres attention because Zergs do not have any easy ways to deal with it, like Observer+Stalker), but I doubt there are many chances that Life would od better in his "standart" form. He didn't really threw this game. At least not worse than many other zergs throw it in a current metagame. There was too much T comebacks recently. Even last WCS AM Finals. And about Innovation - I do not think he is THAT much better than other top tier Terrans in terms of ZvT. He have consistent top notch macro, he is patient, he isn't overextends. He is basically the first guy who perfectly adapted to current style. And I believe in the next 2 months we will see other top Terrans stepping up in terms of ZvT. It is already started.
Note: you do not see widowmines on creep either and i disagree, life diddnt do uncharacteristic blunders as dwf says
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On August 12 2013 20:58 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 20:49 Big J wrote:On August 12 2013 19:58 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2013 19:42 Elldar wrote:On August 12 2013 17:16 gengka wrote:On August 12 2013 16:50 Entirety wrote:On August 12 2013 14:55 beg wrote:
now that we seem to talk about how imba terran is, i may try to ask the following question again.
why do you think terrans are extremely underrepresented in every GM league? i personally dont have an answer. and i never felt that terran was underpowered (i'm terran). so it confuses me. I would assume that is because Terran is really hard to play properly. Thus, average Terrans tend to struggle more while top-tier Korean Terrans make the race look utterly broken (see INnoVation vs. Z). Rabiator, I respect your opinion but talking about SC2's game design really derails this thread from its original purpose: the discussion of the game's current balance. This. Terran is just too mechanically demanding. We might be able to perform flawlessly sometimes and take out zergs and protosses during 200/200 lategames (man that gives maximum satisfaction!) but to consistently doing it is just too hard. I think unless we have a strict training regime like the korean teams, or else we just won't hit that level. Sjow beat life in DreamHack and sjow got like 150 apm if I recall correctly so saying that terran is so much harder to play with is utterly bullshit. Why there is less terran in gm you must look at when the game ends and then you have something to go on probably terran will most certainly have an 80% win rate after 20 minutes since bio + mine is so easy late game unless zerg got a lead from the mid game. The difficulty to play has nothing to do with apm, I don't see any relation between the GM Terran population and the average length of the games, and Hive armies are still far superior to bio (see aLive vs Scarlett, WCS AM for instance). you mean like in Jaedong vs Polt game2, Ultralisks/Infestor with 30supply advantage and 3-3 against 4M on 2-2, Polt coming back by straight forward combats? You know very well that bio used to slap all over Ultralisk/Infestor armies in WoL once you got a few barracks with techlabs, and Ultralisk/Infestor armies aren't really stronger these days, due to how the infestor nerf and the ultra buff kind of equalize. The only thing that changed is that Terrans are now transitioning from Marine/Medivac/Mine into 4M, which is initially even weaker to ultralisks than Marine/Medivac/Tank was before adding marauders. Scarlett vs Alive - Scarlett with around 30 supply disadvantage, but with brood tech. Made a fucking comeback cuz she's that good. Her harass and pressure forced Alive to push into a deathchoke where he lost all his army and the reinforcements were eaten piece-meal. Actually, if there was proper analysis done - I would say that while the overall supply was definitely ahead for Jaedong - Army supply must not have been that ahead. Roughly equal army supply (since Polt really only lost SCVs for tons and tons of banes) and inferior upgrades - you do the math.
Fixed that for you. In that game Jaedong rushed Hive through skipping mutalisks and got 3-3 while Polt forgot his 3-3 and was fighting with 2-2 against 3-3 for quite some time.
And you know, in theory the guy with more economy should profit from drawing out the game, due to higher rebuild capabilities. It's even funnier, because Polt did not extensively use mules to make up for it, as he was spending most of his orbital energy on scanning creep (because that means Jaedong can never touch him with anything more than zergling runbies).
Granted, I believe it's a shit map (Newkirk) for lategame ZvT, because bio has way too much space to maneuver through the middle and drop/runby at all sides, while having frontal PF expansions that you can hardly ever touch and where JD wasted his whole lead by the single attack he went for. (Though I'm not quite sure what a good ZvT map currently should look like... I wish Daybreak was still around)
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On August 12 2013 21:17 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 20:58 plogamer wrote:On August 12 2013 20:49 Big J wrote:On August 12 2013 19:58 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2013 19:42 Elldar wrote:On August 12 2013 17:16 gengka wrote:On August 12 2013 16:50 Entirety wrote:On August 12 2013 14:55 beg wrote:
now that we seem to talk about how imba terran is, i may try to ask the following question again.
why do you think terrans are extremely underrepresented in every GM league? i personally dont have an answer. and i never felt that terran was underpowered (i'm terran). so it confuses me. I would assume that is because Terran is really hard to play properly. Thus, average Terrans tend to struggle more while top-tier Korean Terrans make the race look utterly broken (see INnoVation vs. Z). Rabiator, I respect your opinion but talking about SC2's game design really derails this thread from its original purpose: the discussion of the game's current balance. This. Terran is just too mechanically demanding. We might be able to perform flawlessly sometimes and take out zergs and protosses during 200/200 lategames (man that gives maximum satisfaction!) but to consistently doing it is just too hard. I think unless we have a strict training regime like the korean teams, or else we just won't hit that level. Sjow beat life in DreamHack and sjow got like 150 apm if I recall correctly so saying that terran is so much harder to play with is utterly bullshit. Why there is less terran in gm you must look at when the game ends and then you have something to go on probably terran will most certainly have an 80% win rate after 20 minutes since bio + mine is so easy late game unless zerg got a lead from the mid game. The difficulty to play has nothing to do with apm, I don't see any relation between the GM Terran population and the average length of the games, and Hive armies are still far superior to bio (see aLive vs Scarlett, WCS AM for instance). you mean like in Jaedong vs Polt game2, Ultralisks/Infestor with 30supply advantage and 3-3 against 4M on 2-2, Polt coming back by straight forward combats? You know very well that bio used to slap all over Ultralisk/Infestor armies in WoL once you got a few barracks with techlabs, and Ultralisk/Infestor armies aren't really stronger these days, due to how the infestor nerf and the ultra buff kind of equalize. The only thing that changed is that Terrans are now transitioning from Marine/Medivac/Mine into 4M, which is initially even weaker to ultralisks than Marine/Medivac/Tank was before adding marauders. Scarlett vs Alive - Scarlett with around 30 supply disadvantage, but with brood tech. Made a fucking comeback cuz she's that good. Her harass and pressure forced Alive to push into a deathchoke where he lost all his army and the reinforcements were eaten piece-meal. Actually, if there was proper analysis done - I would say that while the overall supply was definitely ahead for Jaedong - Army supply must not have been that ahead. Roughly equal army supply (since Polt really only lost SCVs for tons and tons of banes) and inferior upgrades - you do the math. Fixed that for you. In that game Jaedong rushed Hive through skipping mutalisks and got 3-3 while Polt forgot his 3-3 and was fighting with 2-2 against 3-3 for quite some time. And you know, in theory the guy with more economy should profit from drawing out the game, due to higher rebuild capabilities. It's even funnier, because Polt did not extensively use mules to make up for it, as he was spending most of his orbital energy on scanning creep (because that means Jaedong can never touch him with anything more than zergling runbies). Granted, I believe it's a shit map (Newkirk) for lategame ZvT, because bio has way too much space to maneuver through the middle and drop/runby at all sides, while having frontal PF expansions that you can hardly ever touch and where JD wasted his whole lead by the single attack he went for. (Though I'm not quite sure what a good ZvT map currently should look like... I wish Daybreak was still around)
I'm talking about game 3 Polt v. Jaedong.
Regardless: I will courteously forward you to this:
On August 12 2013 21:04 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 20:49 Big J wrote:
you mean like in Jaedong vs Polt game2, Ultralisks/Infestor with 30supply advantage and 3-3 against 4M on 2-2, Polt coming back by straight forward combats?
You know very well that bio used to slap all over Ultralisk/Infestor armies in WoL once you got a few barracks with techlabs, and Ultralisk/Infestor armies aren't really stronger these days, due to how the infestor nerf and the ultra buff kind of equalize. The only thing that changed is that Terrans are now transitioning from Marine/Medivac/Mine into 4M, which is initially even weaker to ultralisks than Marine/Medivac/Tank was before adding marauders. Conveniently forgetting Polt had +25-30 army supply, cancelled in extremis the first broods, and did you see how awful Jaedong's charge was in the choke near his fourth? His engagement was completely disarranged. And Polt was on 3/3 for that fight, so why do you even mention the former upgrade advantage?
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On August 12 2013 21:04 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 20:49 Big J wrote:
you mean like in Jaedong vs Polt game2, Ultralisks/Infestor with 30supply advantage and 3-3 against 4M on 2-2, Polt coming back by straight forward combats?
You know very well that bio used to slap all over Ultralisk/Infestor armies in WoL once you got a few barracks with techlabs, and Ultralisk/Infestor armies aren't really stronger these days, due to how the infestor nerf and the ultra buff kind of equalize. The only thing that changed is that Terrans are now transitioning from Marine/Medivac/Mine into 4M, which is initially even weaker to ultralisks than Marine/Medivac/Tank was before adding marauders. Conveniently forgetting Polt had +25-30 army supply, cancelled in extremis the first broods, and did you see how awful Jaedong's charge was in the choke near his fourth? His engagement was completely disarranged. And Polt was on 3/3 for that fight, so why do you even mention the former upgrade advantage?
They had equal army supply when Jaedong had the 30supply advantage.
And there were a ton of fights and many of them on 2-2 vs 3-3, I didn't mention one specifically at all...
I didn't mention the broodlords, just like I didn't mention how Polt dropped marauders into zerglings twice, or how he sometimes only had one mining base against Jaedongs 2-3 (as his Polt's natural was dry faster and only had a third against JDs 4bases). If you want to know everything that happened in that game exactly, you should watch it. There were a ton of good/bad moves from both sides.
Meanwhile Scarlett straight up ouplayed aLive in the other game, but for you that's just "Hive armies being superior to bio".
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EPT
