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sibs
635 Posts
3 (queen, hydralisk, broodlord) and then we are still not considering adbuct, fungal, IT, swarmhost, spine crawler and the fact that running in with a unit that is worth less then the mine (zergling, locust, IT) or does not get killed (roach, ultralisk, overlord/overseer) can be quite a good strategy against mines. Queen range is 5 which is not bigger than 5, so 2. The easiest way to counter mines is just to outrange them! Some of the things you mentioned are just desperation too ;p | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On August 03 2013 21:57 RaFox17 wrote: While totally dodging the real question of balance. Well played, you could be a politician. I just found it's funny you pointed out PL finals assuming you watched them. Also is Zerg up againts Protoss too? | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
Also is Zerg up againts Protoss too? If the game goes past 2 bases, quite the opposite. If 2 bases or less, 50/50. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 03 2013 22:25 xyzz wrote: If the game goes past 2 bases, quite the opposite. If 2 bases or less, 50/50. do you have any stats for that. As much as I have seen (e.g. today) at the highest level Protoss don't have that much trouble with lategame zerg that it looks in any ways favored. Even more, many of the modern Protoss timing attacks are 3base attacks... | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On August 03 2013 22:11 sibs wrote: Queen range is 5 which is not bigger than 5, so 2. The easiest way to counter mines is just to outrange them! Some of the things you mentioned are just desperation too ;p Two queens tank WM shots just fine, followed by a transfuse of course. IMHO, top zergs consider WMs an annoyance at best. Watching them mine sweep an entire battlefield clean without taking a single hit is thrilling in itself. Edit: It's magical, like watching Michael Jackson moonwalk half-way across the stage while singing acapella. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 03 2013 22:35 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: IMHO, top zergs consider WMs an annoyance at best. heh | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
On August 03 2013 22:35 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Two queens tank WM shots just fine, followed by a transfuse of course. IMHO, top zergs consider WMs an annoyance at best. Watching them mine sweep an entire battlefield clean without taking a single hit is thrilling in itself. Not sure about that. I think the problem comes microing vs mines in multiple fronts, say you're doing a counter attack while defending an attack, you just can't keep babysitting units while they cross the map, usually what happens is BOOM you lost 30 zerglings. It punishes small mistakes way too hard. | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
On August 03 2013 22:32 Big J wrote: do you have any stats for that. As much as I have seen (e.g. today) at the highest level Protoss don't have that much trouble with lategame zerg that it looks in any ways favored. Even more, many of the modern Protoss timing attacks are 3base attacks... No idea what you're watching. A vast majority of Protoss wins over Zerg are 2 base all ins for the exact reason that once Zerg has the economy running and all the tech options and switches available the game is an uphill climb. Additionally, the power of the force field diminishes as the game goes on so to use the sentry as effectively as possible the game can't last very long. | ||
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MTAC
103 Posts
usually what happens is BOOM you lost 30 zerglings. Patrol + shift move or Amove. Magic, you lost 4 lings at most. Oh, and that trick can be used in frontal fights too. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 03 2013 22:51 xyzz wrote: No idea what you're watching. A vast majority of Protoss wins over Zerg are 2 base all ins for the exact reason that once Zerg has the economy running and all the tech options and switches available the game is an uphill climb. Additionally, the power of the force field diminishes as the game goes on so to use the sentry as effectively as possible the game can't last very long. hyvaa vs free, trap vs zero, stardust 3base timings/counterattacks/allins, sOs/naniwa 3base skytoss... I don't know what lowlevel metagame you are referring too, but at the highest level PvZ is by no means more allin then any other matchup. yeah, if you only watch Neo Planet S games on which the 3rd is hard to take and 2base timings are very, very strong then yes. Sure, many Protoss builds rely on achieving something off 2bases, but not each of those builds is immidiatly allin and many of those harasses (like the phoenix opening, or gateway expand into recall timing) are guaranteed damage openings. The bolded part is just phrases you repeat from WoL that have nothing to do with the real metagame. | ||
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Frex
Finland888 Posts
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xyzz
567 Posts
The bolded part is just phrases you repeat from WoL that have nothing to do with the real metagame. Of course what you just said are blatant lies or misrepresentations of the truth. Stop spreading this ridiculous propaganda. Every matchup is winnable and losable at any given point in time. What we're talking about the fact that there's tons of maps in the tournament and ladder map pool where there's simply no better way to win than going 2 base all in, and the Protoss players who are playing this game to win are playing to their strengths and all ining most of the games. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On August 04 2013 00:07 Viserion wrote: What really bothers me is like the Hellbat. It was designed for late-game zealots in TvP and make factory usable in TvP, however, factory is still flying scout and the match-up is the most similar to WoL than any other match-up and hellbats barely exist after the nerf. Except in TvT where they're large radius 135hp light units so they can walk through siege tank fire like it's nothing, making the ability to hold off larger armies with smaller ones (something that was pretty unique to TvT) no longer as doable. | ||
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Gr33n
Bahamas113 Posts
zerg needs some decent static def or something to deal with these early eco cheeses | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 04 2013 01:00 Gr33n wrote: did anyone see how hard DRG had it trying to figure out what the toss was just doing? this game lol zerg needs some decent static def or something to deal with these early eco cheeses drg played like shit, watch some symbol vs protoss or soulkey vs protoss to get the other side of the spectrum, where it seemingly doesn't matter what the protoss does they have an answer. | ||
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-korean&type=players&id=663&part=games&vs=647&league=standard&map=any&from_year=2012&from_month=5&from_day=20&to_year=2013&to_month=3&to_day=4&action=Update Sometimes, a player is just better than another. Shocking, I know, | ||
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BrassMonkey27
Canada616 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:41 Rabiator wrote: automatic detonationThe chance for a large hit with the Widow Mine is the same as it WOULD BE for burrowed Baneling ... except Zerg are too stupid or too greedy to get the burrow upgrade. That chance is entirely dependant upon your opponent NOT DETECTING and running into the AoE with a big clump. There are only two minor advantages of the Widow Mine has over the Banelings in that they can shoot air and they can shoot several times, but Widow Mines have a secondary job to do and that is harrassment defense ... and Mutalisks are a potential harrass ... just as many others units from Terran and Protoss are. Banelings can be used offensively and in a targeted way even against buildings, so the two units are kinda even IMO. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 04 2013 00:24 xyzz wrote: Of course what you just said are blatant lies or misrepresentations of the truth. Stop spreading this ridiculous propaganda. Every matchup is winnable and losable at any given point in time. What we're talking about the fact that there's tons of maps in the tournament and ladder map pool where there's simply no better way to win than going 2 base all in, and the Protoss players who are playing this game to win are playing to their strengths and all ining most of the games. I gave at least examples why I think that Protoss can very well play with more than 2bases. Where is your proof that Protoss can't. Because "playing to their strengths and all inning most of the games" can also just mean that their allins are equally strong to their macro game. And maps that are bad for PvZ macrogames (which ones actually? Neo Planet S, and to some extend Whirlwind and Starstation. Anything else where it's hard to take a third?) are no reason to call Protoss bad in macrogames. On August 04 2013 01:04 Rhaegal wrote: You guys do know that Innovation is 4-0 vs Soulkey in Wings of Liberty right? When ZvT was a laughably imbalanced matchup. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-korean&type=players&id=663&part=games&vs=647&league=standard&map=any&from_year=2012&from_month=5&from_day=20&to_year=2013&to_month=3&to_day=4&action=Update Sometimes, a player is just better than another. Shocking, I know, You know that Nestea won three GSL titles in 2010-2011 when ZvT was a laughably imbalanced matchup. Yet he can't keep up with today's best players. Sometimes, players get better or worse over time. Shocking, I know. sorry, but I don't know why you would come in just to whine about WoL balance and bait. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On August 03 2013 19:02 NarutO wrote: First off, my points are better to begin with, because to be honest, they can't get any worse. You are blatantly balance whining its not even funny completely ignoring everything that happened in game. So the grudgematch is just to get you a trip to disneyland so we don't have to listen to your QQ anymore. So that's how you want to deal with people who make legit points attacking Terran, ban them. Since you don't have the mod power (thank god we don't want a biased mod like you) you want to do a grudge match and try to get them to get banned because you dont like it when people tell the TRUTH about Terran advantages. Your points are horrible, you either purposefully manipulate data or ignorantly don't know how to use data (I'll assume the latter), and you're incredibly defensive about anything anyone says about your race. He's balancing whining in a DESIGNED BALANCE DISCUSSION thread...are you just hot-headed or do you actually think about the stuff you say before you say it? | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 04 2013 01:40 GhostOwl wrote: So that's how you want to deal with people who make legit points attacking Terran, ban them. Since you don't have the mod power (thank god we don't want a biased mod like you) you want to do a grudge match and try to get them to get banned because you dont like it when people tell the TRUTH about Terran advantages. Your points are horrible, you either purposefully manipulate data or ignorantly don't know how to use data (I'll assume the latter), and you're incredibly defensive about anything anyone says about your race. He's balancing whining in a DESIGNED BALANCE DISCUSSION thread...are you just hot-headed or do you actually think about the stuff you say before you say it? I pointed out the flaws in the points he was making. He simply chose to ignore them, as do you. If you can actually stand your ground against my points - please do so. Otherwise, don't. | ||
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