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On August 03 2013 21:23 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 21:03 Lock0n wrote:
Zerg's biggest mistake in TvZ is to make too many mutas - when you make 30 mutas, and lose them by A moving into marines or widow mines, there is no reason to complain. Making 30 mutas is basically an all in, you are gambling on being able to camp Terran production which is an instant win, otherwise 3/3 and the hive transition is delayed by so long it's not suprising they get overrun.
Zergs do not need 30 mutas, 10 is enough in order to deter medivac drops. Instead of massing mutas, just get enough banelings to hold until hive tech, then once ultras are out, it's easy to hold 4th, 5th and 6th bases and just overrun Terran.
Ultras are just ridiculously cost effectively, against anything including widow mines. If Zergs get to Ultra tech, TvZ is still Zerg favoured. Ultra hydra infestor is unbeatable by MMMM, especially with queens for transfuse and a few mutas/corrupters for air support. Takes 4 direct mine hits to kill a ultralisk maybe 5 if he doesnt take damage from anything else. Ultra 300/200 4mines 300/100 5 mines 375/125 The counter to mines is really >5 ranged units, turns out Zerg has only 2 of those. Zerg lost all matches on proleague final I'm not surprised one bit, still doing fine outside korea it seems. I wonder what blizz will do.
Did you forget that mines can be re-used? They don't die after attacking like BW.
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On August 04 2013 01:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 00:24 xyzz wrote:The bolded part is just phrases you repeat from WoL that have nothing to do with the real metagame. Of course what you just said are blatant lies or misrepresentations of the truth. Stop spreading this ridiculous propaganda. Every matchup is winnable and losable at any given point in time. What we're talking about the fact that there's tons of maps in the tournament and ladder map pool where there's simply no better way to win than going 2 base all in, and the Protoss players who are playing this game to win are playing to their strengths and all ining most of the games. I gave at least examples why I think that Protoss can very well play with more than 2bases. Where is your proof that Protoss can't. Because "playing to their strengths and all inning most of the games" can also just mean that their allins are equally strong to their macro game. And maps that are bad for PvZ macrogames (which ones actually? Neo Planet S, and to some extend Whirlwind and Starstation. Anything else where it's hard to take a third?) are no reason to call Protoss bad in macrogames. You know that Nestea won three GSL titles in 2010-2011 when ZvT was a laughably imbalanced matchup. Yet he can't keep up with today's best players.
Sometimes, players get better or worse over time. Shocking, I know.
sorry, but I don't know why you would come in just to whine about WoL balance and bait.
That doesn't even make sense.
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On August 04 2013 02:08 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 01:21 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 00:24 xyzz wrote:The bolded part is just phrases you repeat from WoL that have nothing to do with the real metagame. Of course what you just said are blatant lies or misrepresentations of the truth. Stop spreading this ridiculous propaganda. Every matchup is winnable and losable at any given point in time. What we're talking about the fact that there's tons of maps in the tournament and ladder map pool where there's simply no better way to win than going 2 base all in, and the Protoss players who are playing this game to win are playing to their strengths and all ining most of the games. I gave at least examples why I think that Protoss can very well play with more than 2bases. Where is your proof that Protoss can't. Because "playing to their strengths and all inning most of the games" can also just mean that their allins are equally strong to their macro game. And maps that are bad for PvZ macrogames (which ones actually? Neo Planet S, and to some extend Whirlwind and Starstation. Anything else where it's hard to take a third?) are no reason to call Protoss bad in macrogames. You know that Nestea won three GSL titles in 2010-2011 when ZvT was a laughably imbalanced matchup. Yet he can't keep up with today's best players.
Sometimes, players get better or worse over time. Shocking, I know.
sorry, but I don't know why you would come in just to whine about WoL balance and bait. That doesn't even make sense.
Soulkey got much better. Shocking, you know.
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Are people still "discussing" which player is better in this thread about game balance? Individual players simply DO NOT MATTER - especially the really good ones - because they are usually not "the average" ... which is what statistics and things like balance are all about.
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On August 04 2013 02:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 02:08 Rhaegal wrote:On August 04 2013 01:21 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 00:24 xyzz wrote:The bolded part is just phrases you repeat from WoL that have nothing to do with the real metagame. Of course what you just said are blatant lies or misrepresentations of the truth. Stop spreading this ridiculous propaganda. Every matchup is winnable and losable at any given point in time. What we're talking about the fact that there's tons of maps in the tournament and ladder map pool where there's simply no better way to win than going 2 base all in, and the Protoss players who are playing this game to win are playing to their strengths and all ining most of the games. I gave at least examples why I think that Protoss can very well play with more than 2bases. Where is your proof that Protoss can't. Because "playing to their strengths and all inning most of the games" can also just mean that their allins are equally strong to their macro game. And maps that are bad for PvZ macrogames (which ones actually? Neo Planet S, and to some extend Whirlwind and Starstation. Anything else where it's hard to take a third?) are no reason to call Protoss bad in macrogames. You know that Nestea won three GSL titles in 2010-2011 when ZvT was a laughably imbalanced matchup. Yet he can't keep up with today's best players.
Sometimes, players get better or worse over time. Shocking, I know.
sorry, but I don't know why you would come in just to whine about WoL balance and bait. That doesn't even make sense. Soulkey got much better. Shocking, you know.
So when Innovation 4-0'd Soulkey in wings, it wasn't an issue, but now that he's 8-5 vs Soulkey in HOTS it's imbalanced?
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On August 04 2013 02:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 02:08 Rhaegal wrote:On August 04 2013 01:21 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 00:24 xyzz wrote:The bolded part is just phrases you repeat from WoL that have nothing to do with the real metagame. Of course what you just said are blatant lies or misrepresentations of the truth. Stop spreading this ridiculous propaganda. Every matchup is winnable and losable at any given point in time. What we're talking about the fact that there's tons of maps in the tournament and ladder map pool where there's simply no better way to win than going 2 base all in, and the Protoss players who are playing this game to win are playing to their strengths and all ining most of the games. I gave at least examples why I think that Protoss can very well play with more than 2bases. Where is your proof that Protoss can't. Because "playing to their strengths and all inning most of the games" can also just mean that their allins are equally strong to their macro game. And maps that are bad for PvZ macrogames (which ones actually? Neo Planet S, and to some extend Whirlwind and Starstation. Anything else where it's hard to take a third?) are no reason to call Protoss bad in macrogames. You know that Nestea won three GSL titles in 2010-2011 when ZvT was a laughably imbalanced matchup. Yet he can't keep up with today's best players.
Sometimes, players get better or worse over time. Shocking, I know.
sorry, but I don't know why you would come in just to whine about WoL balance and bait. That doesn't even make sense. Soulkey got much better. Shocking, you know.
Which changes nothing to his original point.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On August 04 2013 02:22 Rabiator wrote:
Are people still "discussing" which player is better in this thread about game balance? Individual players simply DO NOT MATTER - especially the really good ones - because they are usually not "the average" ... which is what statistics and things like balance are all about.
Wrong. The absolute best players show what you can do with their respective race. The solution for everybody else is to get better, not to profit from changes.
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On August 04 2013 02:25 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 02:22 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 02:08 Rhaegal wrote:On August 04 2013 01:21 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 00:24 xyzz wrote:The bolded part is just phrases you repeat from WoL that have nothing to do with the real metagame. Of course what you just said are blatant lies or misrepresentations of the truth. Stop spreading this ridiculous propaganda. Every matchup is winnable and losable at any given point in time. What we're talking about the fact that there's tons of maps in the tournament and ladder map pool where there's simply no better way to win than going 2 base all in, and the Protoss players who are playing this game to win are playing to their strengths and all ining most of the games. I gave at least examples why I think that Protoss can very well play with more than 2bases. Where is your proof that Protoss can't. Because "playing to their strengths and all inning most of the games" can also just mean that their allins are equally strong to their macro game. And maps that are bad for PvZ macrogames (which ones actually? Neo Planet S, and to some extend Whirlwind and Starstation. Anything else where it's hard to take a third?) are no reason to call Protoss bad in macrogames. You know that Nestea won three GSL titles in 2010-2011 when ZvT was a laughably imbalanced matchup. Yet he can't keep up with today's best players.
Sometimes, players get better or worse over time. Shocking, I know.
sorry, but I don't know why you would come in just to whine about WoL balance and bait. That doesn't even make sense. Soulkey got much better. Shocking, you know. So when Innovation 4-0'd Soulkey in wings, it wasn't an issue, but now that he's 8-5 vs Soulkey in HOTS it's imbalanced?
Did I say that?
The last SK vs Innovation comment was multiple pages ago, your post had the sole purpose of baiting and whining about WoL TvZ.
On August 04 2013 02:26 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 02:22 Big J wrote:
Soulkey got much better. Shocking, you know. Which changes nothing to his original point.
And as there was no discussion going on about SK vs Innovation that he was reacting to his original point was just to whine about WoL balance.
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On August 04 2013 02:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 02:25 Rhaegal wrote:On August 04 2013 02:22 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 02:08 Rhaegal wrote:On August 04 2013 01:21 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 00:24 xyzz wrote:The bolded part is just phrases you repeat from WoL that have nothing to do with the real metagame. Of course what you just said are blatant lies or misrepresentations of the truth. Stop spreading this ridiculous propaganda. Every matchup is winnable and losable at any given point in time. What we're talking about the fact that there's tons of maps in the tournament and ladder map pool where there's simply no better way to win than going 2 base all in, and the Protoss players who are playing this game to win are playing to their strengths and all ining most of the games. I gave at least examples why I think that Protoss can very well play with more than 2bases. Where is your proof that Protoss can't. Because "playing to their strengths and all inning most of the games" can also just mean that their allins are equally strong to their macro game. And maps that are bad for PvZ macrogames (which ones actually? Neo Planet S, and to some extend Whirlwind and Starstation. Anything else where it's hard to take a third?) are no reason to call Protoss bad in macrogames. You know that Nestea won three GSL titles in 2010-2011 when ZvT was a laughably imbalanced matchup. Yet he can't keep up with today's best players.
Sometimes, players get better or worse over time. Shocking, I know.
sorry, but I don't know why you would come in just to whine about WoL balance and bait. That doesn't even make sense. Soulkey got much better. Shocking, you know. So when Innovation 4-0'd Soulkey in wings, it wasn't an issue, but now that he's 8-5 vs Soulkey in HOTS it's imbalanced? Did I say that? The last SK vs Innovation comment was multiple pages ago, your post had the sole purpose of baiting and whining about WoL TvZ. Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 02:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 04 2013 02:22 Big J wrote:
Soulkey got much better. Shocking, you know. Which changes nothing to his original point. And as there was no discussion going on about SK vs Innovation that he was reacting to his original point was just to whine about WoL balance.
Or he's just saying that Bogus winning Soulkey hardly proves anything about TvZ since Bogus is better.
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On August 04 2013 02:44 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 02:37 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 02:25 Rhaegal wrote:On August 04 2013 02:22 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 02:08 Rhaegal wrote:On August 04 2013 01:21 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 00:24 xyzz wrote:The bolded part is just phrases you repeat from WoL that have nothing to do with the real metagame. Of course what you just said are blatant lies or misrepresentations of the truth. Stop spreading this ridiculous propaganda. Every matchup is winnable and losable at any given point in time. What we're talking about the fact that there's tons of maps in the tournament and ladder map pool where there's simply no better way to win than going 2 base all in, and the Protoss players who are playing this game to win are playing to their strengths and all ining most of the games. I gave at least examples why I think that Protoss can very well play with more than 2bases. Where is your proof that Protoss can't. Because "playing to their strengths and all inning most of the games" can also just mean that their allins are equally strong to their macro game. And maps that are bad for PvZ macrogames (which ones actually? Neo Planet S, and to some extend Whirlwind and Starstation. Anything else where it's hard to take a third?) are no reason to call Protoss bad in macrogames. You know that Nestea won three GSL titles in 2010-2011 when ZvT was a laughably imbalanced matchup. Yet he can't keep up with today's best players.
Sometimes, players get better or worse over time. Shocking, I know.
sorry, but I don't know why you would come in just to whine about WoL balance and bait. That doesn't even make sense. Soulkey got much better. Shocking, you know. So when Innovation 4-0'd Soulkey in wings, it wasn't an issue, but now that he's 8-5 vs Soulkey in HOTS it's imbalanced? Did I say that? The last SK vs Innovation comment was multiple pages ago, your post had the sole purpose of baiting and whining about WoL TvZ. On August 04 2013 02:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 04 2013 02:22 Big J wrote:
Soulkey got much better. Shocking, you know. Which changes nothing to his original point. And as there was no discussion going on about SK vs Innovation that he was reacting to his original point was just to whine about WoL balance. Or he's just saying that Bogus winning Soulkey hardly proves anything about TvZ since Bogus is better.
for whatever reason he would do so pages after those arguments have been made. 
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
It's perfectly reasonable to raise the spectre of WoL TvZ IMO as an illustration of what can happen when you over-nerf based on a few players and what they're capable of.
Welcoming Blizz's more measured approach.
Personally I find mines a bit problematic in the way they work TvZ purely as it seems volatile to me. I also prefer marine/tank :p no idea how I'd fix it tbh
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Practically every PvZ map win in the top 8 of ASUS ROG today has been a 2 base all in.
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On August 04 2013 00:32 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 00:07 Viserion wrote:
What really bothers me is like the Hellbat. It was designed for late-game zealots in TvP and make factory usable in TvP, however, factory is still flying scout and the match-up is the most similar to WoL than any other match-up and hellbats barely exist after the nerf. Except in TvT where they're large radius 135hp light units so they can walk through siege tank fire like it's nothing, making the ability to hold off larger armies with smaller ones (something that was pretty unique to TvT) no longer as doable.
Yeah, I feel like Hellbat just made TvT worse and now Blizzard seems to be just satisfied with how TvP returned to its older state. However, they keep doing such silly changes as long as they carry on with their current philosophy with balance.
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On August 04 2013 02:53 xyzz wrote:
Practically every PvZ map win in the top 8 of ASUS ROG today has been a 2 base all in.
And then Azubu San vs Hyun G2 Happend.
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On August 04 2013 03:11 Viserion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 00:32 Pursuit_ wrote:On August 04 2013 00:07 Viserion wrote:
What really bothers me is like the Hellbat. It was designed for late-game zealots in TvP and make factory usable in TvP, however, factory is still flying scout and the match-up is the most similar to WoL than any other match-up and hellbats barely exist after the nerf. Except in TvT where they're large radius 135hp light units so they can walk through siege tank fire like it's nothing, making the ability to hold off larger armies with smaller ones (something that was pretty unique to TvT) no longer as doable. Yeah, I feel like Hellbat just made TvT worse and now Blizzard seems to be just satisfied with how TvP returned to its older state. However, they keep doing such silly changes as long as they carry on with their current philosophy with balance.
TvT worse?
No hellbats ought to be the best thing that have happend to Sc2 for years.
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On August 04 2013 03:13 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 02:53 xyzz wrote:
Practically every PvZ map win in the top 8 of ASUS ROG today has been a 2 base all in. And then Azubu San vs Hyun G2 Happend.
I slo semmed glimpses of games 2 and three of SAN-DRG and im preety sure there was more then 2 bases.
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On August 03 2013 22:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:25 xyzz wrote:Also is Zerg up againts Protoss too? If the game goes past 2 bases, quite the opposite. If 2 bases or less, 50/50. do you have any stats for that. As much as I have seen (e.g. today) at the highest level Protoss don't have that much trouble with lategame zerg that it looks in any ways favored. Even more, many of the modern Protoss timing attacks are 3base attacks...
Only thing I find vaguely weird about calling them timing attacks is that it feels like their implying an option to stick on to 4 bases. We free unit generators there's kinda an impetus on Protoss to go get things done before they pop out. Idk... kinda makes sense?
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On August 04 2013 03:36 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:32 Big J wrote:On August 03 2013 22:25 xyzz wrote:Also is Zerg up againts Protoss too? If the game goes past 2 bases, quite the opposite. If 2 bases or less, 50/50. do you have any stats for that. As much as I have seen (e.g. today) at the highest level Protoss don't have that much trouble with lategame zerg that it looks in any ways favored. Even more, many of the modern Protoss timing attacks are 3base attacks... Only thing I find vaguely weird about calling them timing attacks is that it feels like their implying an option to stick on to 4 bases. We free unit generators there's kinda an impetus on Protoss to go get things done before they pop out. Idk... kinda makes sense?
Well, the swarmhosts hardly do damage if on their own. like a few colossi in a defensive position and you won't really lose anything to locusts on their own. he scary part is when those get combined with units that force you to engage, like broodlords or vipers. meanwhile a protoss can get away with a lot of economy and harassment. like, I agree that this style is borderline broke on akilon. on other maps? on many I wouldnt even call it viable. e.g. on starstation or whirlwind you just never engage it and zerg should never be able to hold a 5th, while you can expand everywhere.
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On August 04 2013 02:49 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's perfectly reasonable to raise the spectre of WoL TvZ IMO as an illustration of what can happen when you over-nerf based on a few players and what they're capable of.
Welcoming Blizz's more measured approach.
Personally I find mines a bit problematic in the way they work TvZ purely as it seems volatile to me. I also prefer marine/tank :p no idea how I'd fix it tbh
The spectre of the end of WoL when zerg were clearly too strong but blizz did nothing can also be talked about. :D
About TvZ, I do really think that bio mines is too strong, but I don't think you need to change it by a lot. I'd suggest some small change, like increase a tiny little bit the time between the activation and the shot of the mine, and/or even just showing which unit is targeted by the mine. I feel like it would be great and allow more micro from the zerg and as a spectator point of view, to see terran switching (or not) targets. I still don't really know if some terran does it or not, sometimes it looks like but meh, hard to say. ^^
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On August 04 2013 02:26 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 02:22 Rabiator wrote:
Are people still "discussing" which player is better in this thread about game balance? Individual players simply DO NOT MATTER - especially the really good ones - because they are usually not "the average" ... which is what statistics and things like balance are all about. Wrong. The absolute best players show what you can do with their respective race. The solution for everybody else is to get better, not to profit from changes.
That may be true, but it doesnt really say anything about the racial balance. In any case people are discussing which player is better than which other player and not which cool moves player X showed against player Y.
The solution you suggested is stupid, because "everyone else" (= 99.99999% of the people playing the game) do NOT have 8-10 hours a day to practice and get to the top professional level. Thus balance needs to be centered around the average playing level.
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EPT
