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On August 03 2013 19:26 sneirac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 19:12 NarutO wrote:
I don't QQ about infestors and even if I did, Broodlord/Infestor was ridiculous and uncomparable. Jesus are you dumb. I'm not agreeing with the all Terran is broken nonsense, but seriously is it so hard for you to accept that if the best Korean ZvT players have a horrible record against the best Korean TvZ players and an entire OSL/GSL goes by without a single straight up macro game win for Zergs. that then Terran (at that level) might be overpowered? Are you really going to tell me that if the roles were reversed, if Innovation/Flash couldn't beat Soulkey/Life with anything but 11/11 and even that was not working often, you would be saying how fine the game's state is and how much better the Zergs just are? No the game is not terribly broken, with how many problems the European/American Terrans are having there might also be some changes required. IF any change is needed right now then it's a buff to Zergs micro capabilites that only affects the best players and allows them to distinguish themselves, but that does not mean that everything is fine...
I am saying the effort of Terran is insanely high for that style to work, just like how its to defend it. In addition to that, I pointed out that I believe there are outstanding TvZ players with Flash / INnoVation and perhaps FantaSy. All other Terrans don't dominate in the same fashion so what is it? If it was a complete balance issue and retarded at that, all Terrans would rise on any level just like we saw it with Zerg in WoL.
I don't say its complete balance, neither do I accept the complete other way around. I am all fine with tweaks to Terran or buffs of certain points, but right now all I've heard is bullshit whining especially from LSN. Not a single time have I heard a suggestion on how to change something that doesn't beat down other match ups as well.
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On August 03 2013 19:07 MTAC wrote:
Soulkey baneling busting Innovation SCV. When SK attack is done the worker count of Inno is 50+. With 3 mules. 2/2 is done when SK have only 1/1 and no tech.
Sk then managed to sacrifice 3 volleys of banelings into... supply depots. Innovation start 3/3 before SK start 2/2. SK was just all-inning, didn't kill Inno's army or cripple really hard inno's economy.
When SK killed all SCV's in natural = worker screen = inno at 50+ again.
Then we have Inno's push with 12+medivacs, more army supply, better upgrade (at one moment even 4 upgrades better). SK continue to loose banelings against supply. Didn't try to flank, didn't kill the rocks at his third and therefore engage in a tight choke against mines.
SK and inno were even after the first push, except that inno couldn't advance at the time. Sk was behind after the 2nd and third one coz of NO ARMY. He sacrificed everything against 16 SCV, skipping upgrades while flash was building his fourth.
TvZ may be imbalanced, but obviously, when you're failling an all-in it's not a good way to show it.
Question is, why would you choose, as the best zerg in the world hands down, to do an all inon WhirlWind cross position.
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On August 03 2013 19:28 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 19:26 sneirac wrote:On August 03 2013 19:12 NarutO wrote:
I don't QQ about infestors and even if I did, Broodlord/Infestor was ridiculous and uncomparable. Jesus are you dumb. I'm not agreeing with the all Terran is broken nonsense, but seriously is it so hard for you to accept that if the best Korean ZvT players have a horrible record against the best Korean TvZ players and an entire OSL/GSL goes by without a single straight up macro game win for Zergs. that then Terran (at that level) might be overpowered? Are you really going to tell me that if the roles were reversed, if Innovation/Flash couldn't beat Soulkey/Life with anything but 11/11 and even that was not working often, you would be saying how fine the game's state is and how much better the Zergs just are? No the game is not terribly broken, with how many problems the European/American Terrans are having there might also be some changes required. IF any change is needed right now then it's a buff to Zergs micro capabilites that only affects the best players and allows them to distinguish themselves, but that does not mean that everything is fine... I am saying the effort of Terran is insanely high for that style to work, just like how its to defend it. In addition to that, I pointed out that I believe there are outstanding TvZ players with Flash / INnoVation and perhaps FantaSy. All other Terrans don't dominate in the same fashion so what is it? If it was a complete balance issue and retarded at that, all Terrans would rise on any level just like we saw it with Zerg in WoL.
I'm not disputing how insanely difficult it is to play that style or the style to counter it but if Terrans are winning it eight out of ten times then beating it at that level might just be harder counter it than playing it?
That is what I'm saying. There (edit: ) might be a balance problem that only kicks in once the APM/multitasking reaches a certain threshold. That doesn't diminish the skill of the Terrans or embellish the skill of the Zergs it just says what it says. If the best Terrans can't beat the best Zergs anymore then there might be a problem.
By all means let's wait whether the problem persists for another WCS season, but that doesn't mean that there aren't signs of a problem.
And LSN Is just balance whining up a storm...
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I have given reasonable statements. I even said alot of time its not whole terran thats OP but certain mechanics that make terran op in certain stages in this matchup. These are listed earlier in the thread and I wont repeat it. Also with reasonable thinking, it is not this hard to understand. After all you terran guys want to see me banned because I just point out the obvious. I refer to freedom of speech and to the topic of this thread.
Its sad that you guys want to see me banned. This is kind of PC mentality of contemporary youth that is influenced by left wing attitudes.
I suggest reading this: http://socio.ch/general/t_hgeserpc.htm
I am not the bad guy. I argue for my points in this thread of discussion. As you cannot face my arguments ordinarily you try to fight me in any other way you can.
Let the future decide about who was right in this matter. Lets see which race gets buffed in ZvT and which gets nerfed. Then things will get cleared out.
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On August 03 2013 19:26 sneirac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 19:12 NarutO wrote:
I don't QQ about infestors and even if I did, Broodlord/Infestor was ridiculous and uncomparable. Jesus are you dumb. I'm not agreeing with the all Terran is broken nonsense, but seriously is it so hard for you to accept that if the best Korean ZvT players have a horrible record against the best Korean TvZ players and an entire OSL/GSL goes by without a single straight up macro game win for Zergs. that then Terran (at that level) might be overpowered? Are you really going to tell me that if the roles were reversed, if Innovation/Flash couldn't beat Soulkey/Life with anything but 11/11 and even that was not working often, you would be saying how fine the game's state is and how much better the Zergs just are? No the game is not terribly broken, with how many problems the European/American Terrans are having there might also be some changes required. IF any change is needed right now then it's a buff to Zergs micro capabilites that only affects the best players and allows them to distinguish themselves, but that does not mean that everything is fine...
and for how long now? One month? Give it a little more time, a lot of zergs play very allinish styles or plain allins these days against Innovation. There's other players out there - e.g. Hyun and Jaedong - which don't play WCS but look very strong in TvZ with more macrooriented play.
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Northern Ireland25130 Posts
What in the name of holy fuck does political correctness or left-wing politics have to do with it?
You don't respond to people's critiques of your own posts you just jump to the next anti-Terran diatribe you have prepared.
TL isn't about unrestricted free speech anyway, as the sites rules clearly state.
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On August 03 2013 19:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 19:26 sneirac wrote:On August 03 2013 19:12 NarutO wrote:
I don't QQ about infestors and even if I did, Broodlord/Infestor was ridiculous and uncomparable. Jesus are you dumb. I'm not agreeing with the all Terran is broken nonsense, but seriously is it so hard for you to accept that if the best Korean ZvT players have a horrible record against the best Korean TvZ players and an entire OSL/GSL goes by without a single straight up macro game win for Zergs. that then Terran (at that level) might be overpowered? Are you really going to tell me that if the roles were reversed, if Innovation/Flash couldn't beat Soulkey/Life with anything but 11/11 and even that was not working often, you would be saying how fine the game's state is and how much better the Zergs just are? No the game is not terribly broken, with how many problems the European/American Terrans are having there might also be some changes required. IF any change is needed right now then it's a buff to Zergs micro capabilites that only affects the best players and allows them to distinguish themselves, but that does not mean that everything is fine... and for how long now? One month? Give it a little more time, a lot of zergs play very allinish styles or plain allins these days against Innovation. There's other players out there - e.g. Hyun and Jaedong - which don't play WCS but look very strong in TvZ with more macrooriented play.
Agreed let's wait for a bit longer but let's also not act as if it isn't happening.
As for Hyun and Jaedong I think I agree with Naruto on this. As strong as they might have looked they just aren't at the same level. Like Soulkey should/would crush Taeja, Innovation should crush them.
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Some players are just really good at a particular matchup that literally throw balance out of the window. I mean IloveooV was on a friggn 44-2 TvZ streak,, yet lost to July (for those who rememeber the old days hah)
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On August 03 2013 19:47 sneirac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 19:41 Big J wrote:On August 03 2013 19:26 sneirac wrote:On August 03 2013 19:12 NarutO wrote:
I don't QQ about infestors and even if I did, Broodlord/Infestor was ridiculous and uncomparable. Jesus are you dumb. I'm not agreeing with the all Terran is broken nonsense, but seriously is it so hard for you to accept that if the best Korean ZvT players have a horrible record against the best Korean TvZ players and an entire OSL/GSL goes by without a single straight up macro game win for Zergs. that then Terran (at that level) might be overpowered? Are you really going to tell me that if the roles were reversed, if Innovation/Flash couldn't beat Soulkey/Life with anything but 11/11 and even that was not working often, you would be saying how fine the game's state is and how much better the Zergs just are? No the game is not terribly broken, with how many problems the European/American Terrans are having there might also be some changes required. IF any change is needed right now then it's a buff to Zergs micro capabilites that only affects the best players and allows them to distinguish themselves, but that does not mean that everything is fine... and for how long now? One month? Give it a little more time, a lot of zergs play very allinish styles or plain allins these days against Innovation. There's other players out there - e.g. Hyun and Jaedong - which don't play WCS but look very strong in TvZ with more macrooriented play. Agreed let's wait for a bit longer but let's also not act as if it isn't happening. As for Hyun and Jaedong I think I agree with Naruto on this. As strong as they might have looked they just aren't at the same level. Like Soulkey should/would crush Taeja, Innovation should crush them.
oh yeah, I agree. Terrans have had 1-2 really strong months in Korean TvZ for whatever reason.
PL spoilers:
+ Show Spoiler +But for example todays Innovation vs Soulkey game (maybe we'll see another one) was one of those examples were I think Hyuns roach style might have worked better for this kind of aggressive play. Or just not play aggressive at all.
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Question is, why would you choose, as the best zerg in the world hands down, to do an all inon WhirlWind cross position.
Response is: I don't know, i've seen Zerg win macro games on cross position on whirlwind against top Kr Terran. Response is other than Innovation i don't see a lot of Terran rolling over Zerg 80% of the game right now.
Game may be imbalanced. It is surely badly designed in a lots of points. But the Zerg "mass QQ Terran imbeatable is bad, and wrong". If the game is terran favored, it can be because of maps, because of metagame or because of imbalance. But it's to soon to say it. And it's FAR TOO SOON to overnerf Terran or overbuff Zerg.
For example, all Zergs QQ are about "muta is the only thing to harass" and in the same posts "we can't harass with the constant push". wtf????? Don't build muta then. PRO PLAYERS have used few corruptors to snipe medivacs with a roach/bane/ling army, and win games with it. It works, is cheaper than mutaplay, you don't harras but you also don't harass with muta, so not a big loss. Roach tanks a lot of mine shot, and corruptors too.
What I mean is if the T is favored, it could be from a metagame point of view as well as an imbalanced point of view.
Terran isn't overrepresented on ladder or tournaments. But in every game i played, the best races/stuffs/etc.. have ALWAYS been overrepresented, like in WoL Zerg.
But i'm all for thinking of litlle tweaks who will change litlle things design-wise and therefore won't literally break the game.
Terran: Reduce mine cost in minerals but raise gas costs to 50 or maybe 75, but i think it's too much. Won't change terran openings, mines aren't made in high count early on. But taking more gas will be essential, meaning on 3 bases 120 or 240 mineral less per minute = 1 barrack constant production loss.
Same thing for ghost. And buff snipe a litlle against non-psionic. (30 +20? 35+15?)
Overbuff tanks.
Zerg: tweak one Hydra upgrade and make it already researched. Ling/bling/hydra is sometimes played TvZ, and seems to work well, buff a litlle and see if this way is used more.
Buff corruption spell could be cool, or change the corruptor, it's badly designed right now.
Change SH for a scourge launcher. It gives better anti-air. But vulnerable to ground units. won't lead to turtling 50+ minutes Zvmech or ZvP. Give a good way to drop defenses, and shut down mass raven play, but allow better pure mech play, With few HP and smart fire, scourges will die fast so it'll involve lots of micro for both sides.
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On August 03 2013 19:55 MTAC wrote:Show nested quote +Question is, why would you choose, as the best zerg in the world hands down, to do an all inon WhirlWind cross position. Response is: I don't know, i've seen Zerg win macro games on cross position on whirlwind against top Kr Terran. Response is other than Innovation i don't see a lot of Terran rolling over Zerg 80% of the game right now. Game may be imbalanced. It is surely badly designed in a lots of points. But the Zerg "mass QQ Terran imbeatable is bad, and wrong". If the game is terran favored, it can be because of maps, because of metagame or because of imbalance. But it's to soon to say it. And it's FAR TOO SOON to overnerf Terran or overbuff Zerg. For example, all Zergs QQ are about "muta is the only thing to harass" and in the same posts "we can't harass with the constant push". wtf????? Don't build muta then. PRO PLAYERS have used few corruptors to snipe medivacs with a roach/bane/ling army, and win games with it. It works, is cheaper than mutaplay, you don't harras but you also don't harass with muta, so not a big loss. Roach tanks a lot of mine shot, and corruptors too. What I mean is if the T is favored, it could be from a metagame point of view as well as an imbalanced point of view. Terran isn't overrepresented on ladder or tournaments. But in every game i played, the best races/stuffs/etc.. have ALWAYS been overrepresented, like in WoL Zerg. But i'm all for thinking of litlle tweaks who will change litlle things design-wise and therefore won't literally break the game. Terran: Reduce mine cost in minerals but raise gas costs to 50 or maybe 75, but i think it's too much. Won't change terran openings, mines aren't made in high count early on. But taking more gas will be essential, meaning on 3 bases 120 or 240 mineral less per minute = 1 barrack constant production loss. Same thing for ghost. And buff snipe a litlle against non-psionic. (30 +20? 35+15?) Overbuff tanks. Zerg: tweak one Hydra upgrade and make it already researched. Ling/bling/hydra is sometimes played TvZ, and seems to work well, buff a litlle and see if this way is used more. Buff corruption spell could be cool, or change the corruptor, it's badly designed right now. Change SH for a scourge launcher. It gives better anti-air. But vulnerable to ground units. won't lead to turtling 50+ minutes Zvmech or ZvP. Give a good way to drop defenses, and shut down mass raven play, but allow better pure mech play, With few HP and smart fire, scourges will die fast so it'll involve lots of micro for both sides.
well, mine and tank changes are hardly tweaks as those are units that are used quite a lot.
SH change will completely change ZvP, as right now the SH is the only thing capable of fighting against a Protoss ball in the lategame. Will this still be the case with this scourge launcher suggestion? Might be completely broken (scourge killing colossi, but colossi suddenly not being good vs swarmhosts anymore) or very underpowered (mass stalker/HT/Colossus/Archon/immortal/whatever armies running berserk without locusts to zone them out).
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Well, this SH change is a big thing, I agree. But apart for that, the things I think of lead to other compositions and dynamics, especially in mid-game.
I don't care if TvT gets to mech vs mech. As long as mech and/or biomech play can be used TvZ and TvP. Leading to some skytoss in PvT and other comps in ZvT too.
For the SH things, in fact, Zerg best anti-air is mass queen. And, that is just stupid. The idea is just to stop mass caster like Raven, you have to add fast anti-air like marines/thors(splash) or (LOTS) of viking, etc to deal with it. Even PvZ lategame comp will need lots of stlakers/phoenix/carriers. But not only Voids/tempests/collossus. If you're taking away the skytoss thing, actually a lategame zerg without actual SH can compet. with the benefit of easier techswitches. Boost Nydus play, or encourage ovidrop play could be good too, with a preference to nyduses.
Toss will need some tweaks too, but as it's the only race i don't play around master (don't play at all in fact) i can't really say what exactly.
But aniway, more than perfect balance, if we want SC2 to continue growing as an e-sport, it's design tweaks that are needed.
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Zerg's biggest mistake in TvZ is to make too many mutas - when you make 30 mutas, and lose them by A moving into marines or widow mines, there is no reason to complain. Making 30 mutas is basically an all in, you are gambling on being able to camp Terran production which is an instant win, otherwise 3/3 and the hive transition is delayed by so long it's not suprising they get overrun.
Zergs do not need 30 mutas, 10 is enough in order to deter medivac drops. Instead of massing mutas, just get enough banelings to hold until hive tech, then once ultras are out, it's easy to hold 4th, 5th and 6th bases and just overrun Terran.
Ultras are just ridiculously cost effectively, against anything including widow mines. If Zergs get to Ultra tech, TvZ is still Zerg favoured. Ultra hydra infestor is unbeatable by MMMM, especially with queens for transfuse and a few mutas/corrupters for air support.
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On August 03 2013 21:03 Lock0n wrote:
Zerg's biggest mistake in TvZ is to make too many mutas - when you make 30 mutas, and lose them by A moving into marines or widow mines, there is no reason to complain. Making 30 mutas is basically an all in, you are gambling on being able to camp Terran production which is an instant win, otherwise 3/3 and the hive transition is delayed by so long it's not suprising they get overrun.
Zergs do not need 30 mutas, 10 is enough in order to deter medivac drops. Instead of massing mutas, just get enough banelings to hold until hive tech, then once ultras are out, it's easy to hold 4th, 5th and 6th bases and just overrun Terran.
Ultras are just ridiculously cost effectively, against anything including widow mines. If Zergs get to Ultra tech, TvZ is still Zerg favoured. Ultra hydra infestor is unbeatable by MMMM, especially with queens for transfuse and a few mutas/corrupters for air support.
Yes. If terran lets us do anything we wan´t then that is quite easy. And ultras are terrible at deterring drop play so i´m not sure how they make it easy to hold your 5-6th base?? Usually zerg doesn´t have 30 mutas cause then he would have no ground army. The problem is how to get into ultra tech without being really behind. You also need more than few ultras to crush terran and investor,ling, bling to swarm the terran. The hive transition is delayed because holding your 4th is really difficult and defending against 4m takes a shit-ton of gas. Sorry to say but you really don´t understand zerg in this matchup.
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On August 03 2013 21:03 Lock0n wrote:
Zerg's biggest mistake in TvZ is to make too many mutas - when you make 30 mutas, and lose them by A moving into marines or widow mines, there is no reason to complain. Making 30 mutas is basically an all in, you are gambling on being able to camp Terran production which is an instant win, otherwise 3/3 and the hive transition is delayed by so long it's not suprising they get overrun.
Zergs do not need 30 mutas, 10 is enough in order to deter medivac drops. Instead of massing mutas, just get enough banelings to hold until hive tech, then once ultras are out, it's easy to hold 4th, 5th and 6th bases and just overrun Terran.
Ultras are just ridiculously cost effectively, against anything including widow mines. If Zergs get to Ultra tech, TvZ is still Zerg favoured. Ultra hydra infestor is unbeatable by MMMM, especially with queens for transfuse and a few mutas/corrupters for air support.
Takes 4 direct mine hits to kill a ultralisk maybe 5 if he doesnt take damage from anything else.
Ultra 300/200
4mines 300/100
5 mines 375/125
The counter to mines is really >5 ranged units, turns out Zerg has only 2 of those.
Zerg lost all matches on proleague final I'm not surprised one bit, still doing fine outside korea it seems. I wonder what blizz will do.
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On August 03 2013 21:23 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 21:03 Lock0n wrote:
Zerg's biggest mistake in TvZ is to make too many mutas - when you make 30 mutas, and lose them by A moving into marines or widow mines, there is no reason to complain. Making 30 mutas is basically an all in, you are gambling on being able to camp Terran production which is an instant win, otherwise 3/3 and the hive transition is delayed by so long it's not suprising they get overrun.
Zergs do not need 30 mutas, 10 is enough in order to deter medivac drops. Instead of massing mutas, just get enough banelings to hold until hive tech, then once ultras are out, it's easy to hold 4th, 5th and 6th bases and just overrun Terran.
Ultras are just ridiculously cost effectively, against anything including widow mines. If Zergs get to Ultra tech, TvZ is still Zerg favoured. Ultra hydra infestor is unbeatable by MMMM, especially with queens for transfuse and a few mutas/corrupters for air support. Takes 4 direct mine hits to kill a ultralisk maybe 5 if he doesnt take damage from anything else. Ultra 300/200 4mines 300/100 5 mines 375/125 The counter to mines is really >5 ranged units, turns out Zerg has only 2 of those. Zerg lost all matches on proleague final I'm not surprised one bit, still doing fine outside korea it seems. I wonder what blizz will do.
Im not suprised too, Zero and especially Hyvaa were terrible. Maybe its not balance issue.
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On August 03 2013 21:39 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 21:23 sibs wrote:On August 03 2013 21:03 Lock0n wrote:
Zerg's biggest mistake in TvZ is to make too many mutas - when you make 30 mutas, and lose them by A moving into marines or widow mines, there is no reason to complain. Making 30 mutas is basically an all in, you are gambling on being able to camp Terran production which is an instant win, otherwise 3/3 and the hive transition is delayed by so long it's not suprising they get overrun.
Zergs do not need 30 mutas, 10 is enough in order to deter medivac drops. Instead of massing mutas, just get enough banelings to hold until hive tech, then once ultras are out, it's easy to hold 4th, 5th and 6th bases and just overrun Terran.
Ultras are just ridiculously cost effectively, against anything including widow mines. If Zergs get to Ultra tech, TvZ is still Zerg favoured. Ultra hydra infestor is unbeatable by MMMM, especially with queens for transfuse and a few mutas/corrupters for air support. Takes 4 direct mine hits to kill a ultralisk maybe 5 if he doesnt take damage from anything else. Ultra 300/200 4mines 300/100 5 mines 375/125 The counter to mines is really >5 ranged units, turns out Zerg has only 2 of those. Zerg lost all matches on proleague final I'm not surprised one bit, still doing fine outside korea it seems. I wonder what blizz will do. Im not suprised too, Zero and especially Hyvaa were terrible. Maybe its not balance issue.
Yes, all of the balance concern´s are based on those two games. Luckily you pointed out that maybe they were just bad.
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On August 03 2013 21:03 Lock0n wrote:
Zerg's biggest mistake in TvZ is to make too many mutas - when you make 30 mutas, and lose them by A moving into marines or widow mines, there is no reason to complain. Making 30 mutas is basically an all in, you are gambling on being able to camp Terran production which is an instant win, otherwise 3/3 and the hive transition is delayed by so long it's not suprising they get overrun.
Zergs do not need 30 mutas, 10 is enough in order to deter medivac drops. Instead of massing mutas, just get enough banelings to hold until hive tech, then once ultras are out, it's easy to hold 4th, 5th and 6th bases and just overrun Terran.
Ultras are just ridiculously cost effectively, against anything including widow mines. If Zergs get to Ultra tech, TvZ is still Zerg favoured. Ultra hydra infestor is unbeatable by MMMM, especially with queens for transfuse and a few mutas/corrupters for air support.
Lol, that made me laugh.
Then it made me cry because you really believe in that.
Terran is perfectly capable of fighting ultralisks. Ultras got killed by marauders in WoL, and same is true for HotS as nothing has changed in that regard, they are only better vs marines.
Ultras are so strong in the TvZ metagame right now because Terrans play marine/mine/medivac and just kill Zergs when he tries to transition out of banelings - or dies trying because not setting up for ultralisks and being on mass reactor with no techlabs.
Not even gonna advice you to mass drop against a zerg that does not have the mobility to counter you reactively when not going for a strong muta/ling/bling force.
On August 03 2013 21:23 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 21:03 Lock0n wrote:
Zerg's biggest mistake in TvZ is to make too many mutas - when you make 30 mutas, and lose them by A moving into marines or widow mines, there is no reason to complain. Making 30 mutas is basically an all in, you are gambling on being able to camp Terran production which is an instant win, otherwise 3/3 and the hive transition is delayed by so long it's not suprising they get overrun.
Zergs do not need 30 mutas, 10 is enough in order to deter medivac drops. Instead of massing mutas, just get enough banelings to hold until hive tech, then once ultras are out, it's easy to hold 4th, 5th and 6th bases and just overrun Terran.
Ultras are just ridiculously cost effectively, against anything including widow mines. If Zergs get to Ultra tech, TvZ is still Zerg favoured. Ultra hydra infestor is unbeatable by MMMM, especially with queens for transfuse and a few mutas/corrupters for air support. Takes 4 direct mine hits to kill a ultralisk maybe 5 if he doesnt take damage from anything else. Ultra 300/200 4mines 300/100 5 mines 375/125 The counter to mines is really >5 ranged units, turns out Zerg has only 2 of those.Zerg lost all matches on proleague final I'm not surprised one bit, still doing fine outside korea it seems. I wonder what blizz will do.
3 (queen, hydralisk, broodlord) and then we are still not considering adbuct, fungal, IT, swarmhost, spine crawler and the fact that running in with a unit that is worth less then the mine (zergling, locust, IT) or does not get killed (roach, ultralisk, overlord/overseer) can be quite a good strategy against mines.
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On August 03 2013 21:49 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 21:39 keglu wrote:On August 03 2013 21:23 sibs wrote:On August 03 2013 21:03 Lock0n wrote:
Zerg's biggest mistake in TvZ is to make too many mutas - when you make 30 mutas, and lose them by A moving into marines or widow mines, there is no reason to complain. Making 30 mutas is basically an all in, you are gambling on being able to camp Terran production which is an instant win, otherwise 3/3 and the hive transition is delayed by so long it's not suprising they get overrun.
Zergs do not need 30 mutas, 10 is enough in order to deter medivac drops. Instead of massing mutas, just get enough banelings to hold until hive tech, then once ultras are out, it's easy to hold 4th, 5th and 6th bases and just overrun Terran.
Ultras are just ridiculously cost effectively, against anything including widow mines. If Zergs get to Ultra tech, TvZ is still Zerg favoured. Ultra hydra infestor is unbeatable by MMMM, especially with queens for transfuse and a few mutas/corrupters for air support. Takes 4 direct mine hits to kill a ultralisk maybe 5 if he doesnt take damage from anything else. Ultra 300/200 4mines 300/100 5 mines 375/125 The counter to mines is really >5 ranged units, turns out Zerg has only 2 of those. Zerg lost all matches on proleague final I'm not surprised one bit, still doing fine outside korea it seems. I wonder what blizz will do. Im not suprised too, Zero and especially Hyvaa were terrible. Maybe its not balance issue. Yes, all of the balance concern´s are based on those two games. Luckily you pointed out that maybe they were just bad.
I just answered to someone who clearly pointed out PL finals.
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On August 03 2013 21:51 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 21:49 RaFox17 wrote:On August 03 2013 21:39 keglu wrote:On August 03 2013 21:23 sibs wrote:On August 03 2013 21:03 Lock0n wrote:
Zerg's biggest mistake in TvZ is to make too many mutas - when you make 30 mutas, and lose them by A moving into marines or widow mines, there is no reason to complain. Making 30 mutas is basically an all in, you are gambling on being able to camp Terran production which is an instant win, otherwise 3/3 and the hive transition is delayed by so long it's not suprising they get overrun.
Zergs do not need 30 mutas, 10 is enough in order to deter medivac drops. Instead of massing mutas, just get enough banelings to hold until hive tech, then once ultras are out, it's easy to hold 4th, 5th and 6th bases and just overrun Terran.
Ultras are just ridiculously cost effectively, against anything including widow mines. If Zergs get to Ultra tech, TvZ is still Zerg favoured. Ultra hydra infestor is unbeatable by MMMM, especially with queens for transfuse and a few mutas/corrupters for air support. Takes 4 direct mine hits to kill a ultralisk maybe 5 if he doesnt take damage from anything else. Ultra 300/200 4mines 300/100 5 mines 375/125 The counter to mines is really >5 ranged units, turns out Zerg has only 2 of those. Zerg lost all matches on proleague final I'm not surprised one bit, still doing fine outside korea it seems. I wonder what blizz will do. Im not suprised too, Zero and especially Hyvaa were terrible. Maybe its not balance issue. Yes, all of the balance concern´s are based on those two games. Luckily you pointed out that maybe they were just bad. I just answered to someone who clearly pointed out PL finals.
While totally dodging the real question of balance. Well played, you could be a politician.
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EPT
