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On August 03 2013 11:31 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 09:42 Wingblade wrote:On August 03 2013 06:58 xyzz wrote:If anything needs a buf it is the toss, but perhaps Stardust will take Asus ROG and (most likely) Rain will take WCS Korea Season 2 and all will be fine in the universe. Nothing would be worse for Protoss players right now than Stardust doing 15 consecutive 1 and 2 base all ins and winning Asus ROG, and Rain beating Maru in the OSL finals. It would mean that despite the race being actually and factually completely broken in both concept and design, David Kim would have ammunition to claim that all is well. HOTS was a huge failure for Protoss. The only succesful unit was the Mothership Core, and everyone hates to play against it since it counters early game Terran and Protoss pressure too well. Both the Oracle and Tempest are awful and really add nothing to the game. Compared to Hellbats, Widow Mines, Swarm Hosts and Vipers, the Protoss additions have been a tragic joke. I'm not sure if I agree with that sentiment regarding Tempests. Yes oracles are really bad, but the Tempest serves its designed function really well. So well in fact that the unit it counters isn't built in either of the 2 non mirrors now. And Tempests have become instrumental anti colossus, and anti-opponents tempests unit in PvP. Mega late game Tempests against Mega late game mass Ghosts in PvT also needs more experimentation IMO because of how effectively Tempests could zone out approaching ghosts as long as you have sufficient observer count with speed which is easily affordable when this situation could happen. We saw this in Parting vs Flash from The Group of Death last season whrn Parting mixed Tempests in lategame to gain positional advantage on the ghosts. In PvZ broodlords simply don't exist because of the power of Tempests. Tempest are only really used in PvP. That Parting v Flash game, parting had already wiped out flashes army, was a base up, and had a huge supply advantage. He built tempest more to taunt flash than to actually use them. They were only really built well after the game was over. And I think the argument could be made that broodlords aren't built not just because of tempests, but that swarmhosts are just harder to catch out of position and kill.
That's not what happened in that game between parting and flash at all. Parting was incredibly behind, Flash transitioned into mass-ghost BC Viking, and yet Parting came back with storms and tempests.
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On August 03 2013 11:05 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:56 Lock0n wrote:
TvZ mid game is Terran favoured, late game is definitely Zerg favoured, due to Zerg production. The way in which Terran is winning most games is by extending the mid game by never letting opponent turtle up and tech to ultra. Every TvZ where Zerg manages to get a few ultras, it always seems like Zerg come out on top of most fights by A moving. Late game is definitely not Zerg favoured. It isn't WoL anymore with infestors and brood lords killing everything. Even if Zerg gets Ultras, Terran can go battlecruisers mixed with ground support, or they can just get more mines with small tank support and completely blow out the ultra army out. If you let the Zerg get 12+ Ultras, you deserve to lose..that's like letting the Protoss get 12 colossus
Except Protoss can't produce 12 colossus at a time. Reaching 12+ ultras is not that hard once you reach late game. If you're saying that late game isn't Zerg favored unless Zerg can get 12+ ultras out, then you're saying late game is Zerg favored.
Ultra/infestor/corruptor is really good against bio/mine (obviously light on the corruptors), and really good against airterran (obviously heavier on the corruptors). It might not be that good against mech, but that's a moot point since no one plays mech, and even if they did, you could just build some vipers right away and smash that, too. Eventually you'll want those vipers anyway, so you can start pulling individual bc's and chipping away at the BC/raven/viking composition.
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On August 03 2013 18:11 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 11:05 GhostOwl wrote:On August 03 2013 06:56 Lock0n wrote:
TvZ mid game is Terran favoured, late game is definitely Zerg favoured, due to Zerg production. The way in which Terran is winning most games is by extending the mid game by never letting opponent turtle up and tech to ultra. Every TvZ where Zerg manages to get a few ultras, it always seems like Zerg come out on top of most fights by A moving. Late game is definitely not Zerg favoured. It isn't WoL anymore with infestors and brood lords killing everything. Even if Zerg gets Ultras, Terran can go battlecruisers mixed with ground support, or they can just get more mines with small tank support and completely blow out the ultra army out. If you let the Zerg get 12+ Ultras, you deserve to lose..that's like letting the Protoss get 12 colossus Except Protoss can't produce 12 colossus at a time. Reaching 12+ ultras is not that hard once you reach late game. If you're saying that late game isn't Zerg favored unless Zerg can get 12+ ultras out, then you're saying late game is Zerg favored. Ultra/infestor/corruptor is really good against bio/mine (obviously light on the corruptors), and really good against airterran (obviously heavier on the corruptors). It might not be that good against mech, but that's a moot point since no one plays mech, and even if they did, you could just build some vipers right away and smash that, too. Eventually you'll want those vipers anyway, so you can start pulling individual bc's and chipping away at the BC/raven/viking composition.
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you can't just compare one production to another like that. are you serious? by the time zerg can get 12 ultras out, toss can produce either from triple robo with stargates already
ultra infestor corruptor of cause is very strong against bio/mine, but it is hard to reach that stage when you are pinned to 3rd and late 4th. how do you ever get enough gas to support all that when you have to rely on lair units to defend all the bio mines??
you are completing skipping the entire metagame which is really weird to see.
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I'd like to include adding some tempests into the deathball to counter the MMMMVG via systematically sniping the medivacs is huge. Mass Medivacs are the lynchpin of the TvP bio deathball.
And that to you is a good unit with succesful design? A unit that costs 300 minerals 200 gas and requires tier 3 tech to build, and has to shoot at a 100 mineral 100 gas Medivac 6 times at attack speed 3.3 to kill it (one Medivac). So basically what you like so many others are saying is that, when the Protoss has already won and has a much much higher army value, Tempests are cool en masse doing a few snipe kills here or there. It's not like they actually decide the battle. In fact it's quite the opposite, as many a Protoss player has actually lost a game he was miles ahead in because he decided to build Tempests.
That said going back to my original argument. Comparing the Tempest and Oracle to the Widow Mine, Hellbat and Swarm Host and Viper is like comparing Marines or Roaches to Carriers. The new Terran and Zerg additions are staple units with dozens of different types of uses that are (and have been) potentially matchup changing, while the Protoss units are situational gimmicks that are countered easier than possibly any other units in the game (build a singular turret/spore/cannon, don't build massive air).
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On August 03 2013 18:21 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +
I'd like to include adding some tempests into the deathball to counter the MMMMVG via systematically sniping the medivacs is huge. Mass Medivacs are the lynchpin of the TvP bio deathball.
And that to you is a good unit with succesful design? A unit that costs 300 minerals 200 gas and requires tier 3 tech to build, and has to shoot at a 100 mineral 100 gas Medivac 6 times at attack speed 3.3 to kill it ( one Medivac). So basically what you like so many others are saying is that, when the Protoss has already won and has a much much higher army value, Tempests are cool en masse doing a few snipe kills here or there. It's not like they actually decide the battle. In fact it's quite the opposite, as many a Protoss player has actually lost a game he was miles ahead in because he decided to build Tempests. That said going back to my original argument. Comparing the Tempest and Oracle to the Widow Mine, Hellbat and Swarm Host and Viper is like comparing Marines or Roaches to Carriers. The new Terran and Zerg additions are staple units with dozens of different types of uses that are potentially matchup changing, while the Protoss units are situational gimmicks that are countered easier than possibly any other unit in the game (build a singular turret/spore/cannon, don't build massive air).
You're severely underestimating how amazing Tempests are by focusing on statistics like DPS and ignoring things like burst damage, range, ridiculous life:cost ratio, low supply, and etc cetera.
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Yeah, 6 Tempests (that cost more than 17 Stalkers) have the 'burst damage' to one shot a Medivac. I think I'm not underestimating anything when I say the Tempest absolutely blows vs. anything non massive air. Guess what kind of moves and burst damage the 17 blink Stalkers are able to do vs Medivacs?
As far as supply goes, it's 24 supply vs 32 supply, and the performance difference is absolutely massive. If anything the Tempests should be even lower in supply because they aren't contributing like they should. As far as the so called 'ridiculous life to cost ratio' is concerned, the Tempest costs 500 total and has a total of 450 life and shields, while the Stalker costs 175 total and has a total of 160 life and shields. You'll be the first to ever suggest that Stalkers are good because of their apparently absolutely zuper duper ridiculous survivability to cost ratio.
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lol innovation vs soulkey :D
kill 30 scv to push terran ahead. Thats it!
Innovation didnt even see that about all his scvs were killed at one base, and he didnt probably even care. This game is the perfect example about what is being discussed here:
1. constant rally go and win terran
2. absolut cost ineffectivity ling/bane/muta vs bio/mine
3. attacks on terran damage the zerg more than the terran, no matter how much the terran loses, if he survives he will be ahead afterwards
4. therefore zergs only option is to play pure defensively which is aside of any balance issues no fun at all and what zergs usually deny to do or super all-in committed
Innovation seemed to not have to adapt AT ALL to these constant baneling attacks. Some basic depot walls, some bunkers and let the zerg kill himself with the cost inefficiency of his units.
Now think about if the terran played 100% and tried to save some of his scvs at that one base instead of losing all with zero reaction to banelings. It would have been even more clearly ...
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On August 03 2013 18:47 LSN wrote:
lol innovation vs soulkey :D
kill 30 scv to push terran ahead. Thats it!
Innovation didnt even see that about all his scvs were killed, and he didnt probably even care. This game is the perfect example about what is being discussed here:
1. constant rally go and win terran
2. absolut cost ineffectivity ling/bane/muta vs bio/mine
3. attacks on terran damages the zerg more than the terran, no matter how much the terran loses, if he survives he will be ahead afterwards
4. therefore zergs only option is to play pure defensively which is aside of any balance issues no fun at all and what zergs usually deny to do
Innovation seemed to not have to adapt AT ALL to these constant baneling attacks. Some basic depot walls, some bunkers and let the zerg kill himself with the cost inefficiency of his units.
Grudgematch for ban are you still in? I can play this weekend, whenever you like. Also, the stupid comments are once again full of bullshit. SoulKey hit a big attack and while he killed lots of economy (INnoVation did react slow at his natural but he did react) he delayed or forgot his upgrades. It was 2-2 vs 1-1 for a long time and after that it was 3-3 for a very long time (unusually long) vs 2-2.
He also constantly did send mass banes (lots of gas) into supply walls without d oing a lot of stuff if anything at all. You are so uninformed its sad. Besides that, 80% of the other Terrans would simply have died. INnoVation had perfect control and macro behind.
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I didnt receive any pm of you yet but gotta tell you this is a balance discussion thread not a personal rage thread about you playing the superior race in ZvT where you need to show off the length of your dick mate. You seriously are not even worth to bother with if you cant beat my arguments about the obvious but ask for 1on1 instead :-/
And just to let you know - as I read somewhere that you played over 1000 games this season - I probably haven't played that many SC2 1on1s since release. So do you really think if you beat me in 1on1 that your points are gonna get better?
I mean, for real? oO
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'With MULES and such, Terran can survive on a weaker economy for a while. Thing is, Soulkey had a lead, but he really did nothing with it. Yeah, he got the fourth, but all his resources went into making banes and trying to disrupt the third over and over -- each time returning with diminishing results. Innovation was able to keep his production going with his 45~50 workers and MULES, get the mines out, and then pressure the fourth. With banes, lings and mutas only, Soulkey really couldn't combat Innovation's army down his fourth base choke, Innovation trading way more cost sufficiently each go around with Soulkey bleeding money by just throwing it into more banes that did zilch.
Innovation's splits were extremely impressive, his positioning was great and he was able to push his advantage and win the game. This game was pretty much exactly the same as Polt vs. Revival from IEM Shanghai. Polt lost all his workers early, but was able to keep his productions with MULES and get better upgrades. He was able to trade cost efficiently with his bio/mine force and even take the lead at times, but Revival finally decided to say 'fuck it' and counter attack with his mutas and kill off all production/mining Polt had left. He then transitioned into ultras and won.
Soulkey kinda just kept making banelings, running them down his ramp to die and his mutas did absolutely nothing. No harassment and he kept them out of the fight in fear of flying over a minefield. By never transitioning, Innovation having 3/3, and Soulkey letting Innovation's economy stabilize on three bases, it was pretty much over. '
Copy paste from Fionn. I already explained where SoulKey lost. I don't PM you - I just want to receive confirmation of you into the grudgematch of a permban here, because lots of people are sick of your bullshit here.
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On August 03 2013 18:57 LSN wrote:
And just to let you know - as I read somewhere that you played over 1000 games this season - I probably haven't played that many SC2 1on1s since release. So do you really think if you beat me in 1on1 that your points are gonna get better?
I mean, for real? oO
First off, my points are better to begin with, because to be honest, they can't get any worse. You are blatantly balance whining its not even funny completely ignoring everything that happened in game.
So the grudgematch is just to get you a trip to disneyland so we don't have to listen to your QQ anymore.
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there was one amazing split. He didnt split his scvs alot of times at all or badly and lost all of them at the natural once with zero efforts to do anything about it. One good split and the rest was usual upload/unload micro while mines and units left on the ground clear up zergs. Its not that great as you put it and more like business as usual from some of the best players. Aside of this there is nothing much else to do for terran at this stage of the game. 100% screen focus on attack, hotkey use buildings to rally units to the front. Its not that special to focus 100% on your units and do a good split if you have really nothing else to do or care about. Neither counter attacks nor tech transitions nor adaptations. :-(
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Soulkey baneling busting Innovation SCV. When SK attack is done the worker count of Inno is 50+. With 3 mules. 2/2 is done when SK have only 1/1 and no tech.
Sk then managed to sacrifice 3 volleys of banelings into... supply depots. Innovation start 3/3 before SK start 2/2. SK was just all-inning, didn't kill Inno's army or cripple really hard inno's economy.
When SK killed all SCV's in natural = worker screen = inno at 50+ again.
Then we have Inno's push with 12+medivacs, more army supply, better upgrade (at one moment even 4 upgrades better). SK continue to loose banelings against supply. Didn't try to flank, didn't kill the rocks at his third and therefore engage in a tight choke against mines.
SK and inno were even after the first push, except that inno couldn't advance at the time. Sk was behind after the 2nd and third one coz of NO ARMY. He sacrificed everything against 16 SCV, skipping upgrades while flash was building his fourth.
TvZ may be imbalanced, but obviously, when you're failling an all-in it's not a good way to show it.
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On August 03 2013 19:07 LSN wrote:
there was one amazing split. He didnt split his scvs alot of times at all or badly and lost all of them at the natural once with zero efforts to do anything about it. One good split and the rest was usual upload/unload micro while mines and units left on the ground clear up zergs. Its not that great as you put it and more like business as usual from some of the best players. Aside of this there is nothing much else to do for terran at this stage of the game. 100% screen focus on attack, hotkey use buildings to rally units to the front. Its not that special to focus 100% on your units and do a good split if you have really nothing else to do or care about. Neither counter attacks nor tech transitions nor adaptations. :-(
Simply answer. Do you take the grudgematch for the ban or not? I am fed up with the bullshit so I won't even answer it
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On August 03 2013 19:02 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 18:57 LSN wrote:
And just to let you know - as I read somewhere that you played over 1000 games this season - I probably haven't played that many SC2 1on1s since release. So do you really think if you beat me in 1on1 that your points are gonna get better?
I mean, for real? oO First off, my points are better to begin with, because to be honest, they can't get any worse. You are blatantly balance whining its not even funny completely ignoring everything that happened in game. So the grudgematch is just to get you a trip to disneyland so we don't have to listen to your QQ anymore.
I see you QQing about WOL infestors still. Watch ZvT with the current stats develop in the upcoming months to see that my points will get proben until blizzard is forced to react and balances it again. I see a terran that didnt even play his best and didnt have to adapt to the zerg playstyle but instead plays some memorized stuff suffers heavy losses and still wins. Terran OP mechanic.
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I don't QQ about infestors and even if I did, Broodlord/Infestor was ridiculous and uncomparable. Jesus are you dumb.
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On August 03 2013 19:10 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 19:02 NarutO wrote:On August 03 2013 18:57 LSN wrote:
And just to let you know - as I read somewhere that you played over 1000 games this season - I probably haven't played that many SC2 1on1s since release. So do you really think if you beat me in 1on1 that your points are gonna get better?
I mean, for real? oO First off, my points are better to begin with, because to be honest, they can't get any worse. You are blatantly balance whining its not even funny completely ignoring everything that happened in game. So the grudgematch is just to get you a trip to disneyland so we don't have to listen to your QQ anymore. I see you QQing about WOL infestors still. Watch ZvT with the current stats develop in the upcoming months to see that my points will get proben until blizzard is forced to react and balances it again. I see a terran that didnt even play his best and didnt have to adapt to the zerg playstyle but instead plays some memorized stuff suffers heavy losses and still wins. Terran OP mechanic.
Current stats in ZVT are trending towards 50% in 4 consucetive months btw, currently at 51,5%
And how Innovation did not adapt when he stopped SK from doing any damage post second banegling attact at natural.
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On August 03 2013 19:09 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 19:07 LSN wrote:
there was one amazing split. He didnt split his scvs alot of times at all or badly and lost all of them at the natural once with zero efforts to do anything about it. One good split and the rest was usual upload/unload micro while mines and units left on the ground clear up zergs. Its not that great as you put it and more like business as usual from some of the best players. Aside of this there is nothing much else to do for terran at this stage of the game. 100% screen focus on attack, hotkey use buildings to rally units to the front. Its not that special to focus 100% on your units and do a good split if you have really nothing else to do or care about. Neither counter attacks nor tech transitions nor adaptations. :-(
Simply answer. Do you take the grudgematch for the ban or not? I am fed up with the bullshit so I won't even answer it
nnty!
and now stop to spam this thread about it. I already told you to contact me via pm if you want a match.
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On August 03 2013 19:12 NarutO wrote:
I don't QQ about infestors and even if I did, Broodlord/Infestor was ridiculous and uncomparable. Jesus are you dumb.
I'm not agreeing with the all Terran is broken nonsense, but seriously is it so hard for you to accept that if the best Korean ZvT players have a horrible record against the best Korean TvZ players and an entire OSL/GSL goes by without a single straight up macro game win for Zergs. that then Terran (at that level) might be overpowered?
Are you really going to tell me that if the roles were reversed, if Innovation/Flash couldn't beat Soulkey/Life with anything but 11/11 and even that was not working often, you would be saying how fine the game's state is and how much better the Zergs just are?
No the game is not terribly broken, with how many problems the European/American Terrans are having there might also be some changes required. IF any change is needed right now then it's a buff to Zergs micro capabilites that only affects the best players and allows them to distinguish themselves, but that does not mean that everything is fine...
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Northern Ireland25237 Posts
Naruto doesn't simply QQ he articulates points other than 'mules OP'.
I pretty much suck at the game lsn, I don't know at what level you play. Why is he tearing your posts apart when even in disagreement, he gives respectful responses to what I post?
He's not a 'I am better than you at SC so shut up' kind of guy, it's because your posting is terrible and antagonistic. I anticipate you getting banned sooner or later or anyway, may as well go down fighting.
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EPT
