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On August 29 2011 06:57 sharktopus. wrote:
After watching MLG this weekend, what do you guys think is the main thing preventing Protoss players from doing better, or your top 3 things? I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this.
Personally I think economy is what hurts Toss the most, especially early game. Terran can mule at 15 supply, and Zerg can drone hard with larva inject, but Toss has to continue to produce 1 probe at a time, has a hard time securing expansions early (even 3 gate expand isn't working how it once did), and can't afford to produce enough units to defend.
Think about how many times we saw Toss players getting absolutely crushed shortly after taking their second expansion (i.e. the HuK / Nada games from today).
Top 10 at the Anaheim MLG had two Protoss (7.HuK 8.Naniwa) and top 4 were terran. Top 10 at Columbus had two (3.MC 6.Naniwa), Toss did well in Dallas (1st, 2nd, and 4th), and the Raleigh MLG will end with only two Toss in the top 8 (6.HerO 7.HuK).
What do you guys think?
It's not about economy. Protoss has chrono boost to help early production of probes.
It's mainly 1/1/1 in early stage of the game and EMP in late of the game vs Terran, and infester's fungle growth vs Zerg.
It's not my opinion BTW. It's just what is shown on pro scenes. Protoss has hard timing dealing with 1/1/1 and EMP, especially with EMP having no counter at all. There is no way protoss can dodge EMP.
It's pretty similar with fungle since feedback can't hit infestors because fungle has longer range with AOE, and it staples HT on that spot.
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On August 29 2011 06:57 sharktopus. wrote:
After watching MLG this weekend, what do you guys think is the main thing preventing Protoss players from doing better, or your top 3 things? I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this.
Personally I think economy is what hurts Toss the most, especially early game. Terran can mule at 15 supply, and Zerg can drone hard with larva inject, but Toss has to continue to produce 1 probe at a time, has a hard time securing expansions early (even 3 gate expand isn't working how it once did), and can't afford to produce enough units to defend early pressure.
Think about how many times we saw Toss players getting absolutely crushed shortly after taking their second expansion (i.e. the HuK / Nada games from today).
Top 10 at the Anaheim MLG had two Protoss (7.HuK 8.Naniwa) and top 4 were terran. Top 10 at Columbus had two (3.MC 6.Naniwa), Toss did well in Dallas (1st, 2nd, and 4th), and the Raleigh MLG will end with only two Toss in the top 8 (6.HerO 7.HuK).
What do you guys think?
TvP is hella volatile until late-mid game for protoss.
Terran has very powerful cheeses, strong timing pushes and powerful drop play.
If protoss gets 3-4 base gas and a good ball, i see them doing really well. But mostly you're crippled before you come to that point or get finished off earlier.
Against Zerg you lack harass potential (there surely is room to discover, but currently is hurting) and you can't win straight up macro against zerg.
Protoss overall is very volatile in the sense of adding tech at the right time without dieing, as well as a micro mistake can cost you outright the game without redemption or the chance to launch a comeback.
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[....]
What do you guys think?
Against T, protoss seems competitive only on huge maps (TD), because it's easyer to reach late game and because wg, when protoss have an huge economy, is very strong (even too much).
On small maps 1-1-1, drops and ghosts seems quite devastating.
Against zerg, i don't know, i have seen few PvZ series. Coca vs Naniwa made Zerg looks totally imba. Btw it was only a series so i can't say anything.
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On August 28 2011 20:33 okrane wrote:
I would like to add a question to this balance thread to see what people think.
The Hydralisk Range Upgrade
Why is it necessary?
It seems to me that it is a reminiscent of BW where all the core ranged units had a range upgrade, to keep them from being too strong early in the game where there werent that many units around.
Marines, Dragoons and Hydras had range upgrades.
But if we look at the current design, Marines and Stalkers already start with their range already to max and any upgrades they might have only make them even better.
However hydralisks, slow as they are, they also start with a lower range and need this expensive upgrade to be midly decent.
Given that Void Ray / Pheonix combo is out before hydralisks usually and that pheonixes are not so bad against hydras, I am wondering why it is necessary to spend that 150/150 to use this unit.
Any thoughts? Any other implication this upgrade might bring? What am I missing?
You are missing the roach. Cheapest 1.5 unit in the game, and with a couple of cheapo upgrades owns stalkers on supply, and destroys them when comparing cost.
Now having this in mind, if hydras were better, do you think a protoss could EVER win a PvZ game?
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On August 29 2011 07:03 highsis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 06:57 sharktopus. wrote:
After watching MLG this weekend, what do you guys think is the main thing preventing Protoss players from doing better, or your top 3 things? I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this.
Personally I think economy is what hurts Toss the most, especially early game. Terran can mule at 15 supply, and Zerg can drone hard with larva inject, but Toss has to continue to produce 1 probe at a time, has a hard time securing expansions early (even 3 gate expand isn't working how it once did), and can't afford to produce enough units to defend.
Think about how many times we saw Toss players getting absolutely crushed shortly after taking their second expansion (i.e. the HuK / Nada games from today).
Top 10 at the Anaheim MLG had two Protoss (7.HuK 8.Naniwa) and top 4 were terran. Top 10 at Columbus had two (3.MC 6.Naniwa), Toss did well in Dallas (1st, 2nd, and 4th), and the Raleigh MLG will end with only two Toss in the top 8 (6.HerO 7.HuK).
What do you guys think? It's not about economy. Protoss has chrono boost to help early production of probes.
I usually don't see pros chrono a pair of probes more than twice early game, because we need chrono for so many other things like warp gate research and weapon level 1 upgrade at forge if we're going that route. You also see it used quite a bit on blink research, and will probably need to be used even more if blink research time actually gets increased.
I certainly don't believe that a couple of rounds of chrono boost on my nexus helps me keep up with a Terran or Zerg opponent's economy by any means.
EMP is devastating too. Ghosts are coming in earlier and pushing out with the Terran army, they EMP our army at the ramp and we lose all shields and sentry energy, and if Terran has a couple medivacs it's game over.
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On August 29 2011 06:57 sharktopus. wrote:
After watching MLG this weekend, what do you guys think is the main thing preventing Protoss players from doing better, or your top 3 things? I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this.
Personally I think economy is what hurts Toss the most, especially early game. Terran can mule at 15 supply, and Zerg can drone hard with larva inject, but Toss has to continue to produce 1 probe at a time, has a hard time securing expansions early (even 3 gate expand isn't working how it once did), and can't afford to produce enough units to defend.
Think about how many times we saw Toss players getting absolutely crushed shortly after taking their second expansion (i.e. the HuK / Nada games from today).
Top 10 at the Anaheim MLG had two Protoss (7.HuK 8.Naniwa) and top 4 were terran. Top 10 at Columbus had two (3.MC 6.Naniwa), Toss did well in Dallas (1st, 2nd, and 4th), and the Raleigh MLG will end with only two Toss in the top 8 (6.HerO 7.HuK).
What do you guys think?
PvT:
- The 1-1-1 build is, when executed properly (when terran doesn't forget to research siege or siege up), incredibly difficult, if not impossible to hold off.
- EMP. 50% health removed from stalkers and sentries, 33% from zealots. Removes energy which nullifies forcefield and storms. Has 3 more range effectively than feedback. Huge aoe, bigger than storm (1.5) emp has aoe of 2. Instant cast, instant damage. Impossible to dodge. You don't have to research it. No more amulet, but ghosts can get a similar upgrade. They also come really early in the game. Nullifies archons. Nullifies immortal hardened shields. Add to this how focused the protoss game is around forcefield and storm, and we see the problem. I refer to mc vs puma IEM game 2 for this. Also check game 1 and 3 to see the power of the 1-1-1. Mc played a lot better in game 1 and 2 but still just lost. If terran gets 1 good emp off they can stim a move and win.
PvZ:
- All those nerfs to protoss resulted in them no longer being able to pressure the zerg. Any pvz that enters the midgame has a situation where the zerg is ahead. Expanding means zerg can get a third safely and fast, this means at some point it's 40 probes vs 80 drones and then you just die because of swarming. 1 base protoss is incredibly weak, 4 gate was already figured out and after that nerfed to hell as well. This results in protoss relying on 2base pushes like 6gate or colossus pushes which give at least a chance to the protoss player. This is also the reason 1-1-1 has become so effective.
- Zerg macro mechanics are just too strong. Protoss can not keep up, and can not pressure to stay even. Stargates, dt, that all doesn't work anymore.
General:
The problem is simple. Protoss has a horribly weak early game. Stalkers are horrible horrible units, they are less cost effective than workers (this is not a joke, use the unit tester and you will see). Force field is strong when used properly, so zealots and stalkers can not be strong because of that. Resulting in protoss units being very weak in small numbers, they rely on deathballs. Zerg can outmacro protoss and there is nothing they can do about it. Terran just has better units which are more cost effective and better in small numbers, also 1 good emp means gg for protoss.
Force field and colossus are so strong because the base units of protoss are so weak and their upgrades are so expensive. Force field needs to be a defensive ability, and much less an offensive one. For example the duration could be changed to somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds when it is not casted in a power field. This will allow a significant boost to gateway unit strength/upgrade cost, and a big nerf to emp. Colossus just need to be reavers again, the model of colossus doesn't work. I call them disposable super batteries, they can work in certain timings and can be exploited to get a chance to win, but when a viking or two pop out they are useless and you can't get them anymore. It's also impossible to micro them, they're 1a units.
The KA removal also really hurts. Warp in storms were too much, but KA could give only +15 energy and maybe make templars a bit faster.
Overall it just feels like units are very weak, emp and zerg macro mechanics are unstoppable, units are all cost ineffective and creativity and flexibility is impossible. The race feels like it was designed to be weaker, and it also feels incomplete. Chrono boost feels like all research was changed to be 50% slower and that with constant chrono boost it changes to the original time.
And yes a whole lot of protoss crying there. I like protoss but they're just a lot weaker and worse when compared to the other races, that's why I switched to random.
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On August 29 2011 07:13 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 20:33 okrane wrote:
I would like to add a question to this balance thread to see what people think.
The Hydralisk Range Upgrade
Why is it necessary?
It seems to me that it is a reminiscent of BW where all the core ranged units had a range upgrade, to keep them from being too strong early in the game where there werent that many units around.
Marines, Dragoons and Hydras had range upgrades.
But if we look at the current design, Marines and Stalkers already start with their range already to max and any upgrades they might have only make them even better.
However hydralisks, slow as they are, they also start with a lower range and need this expensive upgrade to be midly decent.
Given that Void Ray / Pheonix combo is out before hydralisks usually and that pheonixes are not so bad against hydras, I am wondering why it is necessary to spend that 150/150 to use this unit.
Any thoughts? Any other implication this upgrade might bring? What am I missing? You are missing the roach. Cheapest 1.5 unit in the game, and with a couple of cheapo upgrades owns stalkers on supply, and destroys them when comparing cost. Now having this in mind, if hydras were better, do you think a protoss could EVER win a PvZ game?
The increased mobility of stalkers more than makes up for the extra 25 minerals, good blink play absolutely demolishes stalker vs hydra balls
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On August 29 2011 07:18 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 07:13 IVN wrote:On August 28 2011 20:33 okrane wrote:
I would like to add a question to this balance thread to see what people think.
The Hydralisk Range Upgrade
Why is it necessary?
It seems to me that it is a reminiscent of BW where all the core ranged units had a range upgrade, to keep them from being too strong early in the game where there werent that many units around.
Marines, Dragoons and Hydras had range upgrades.
But if we look at the current design, Marines and Stalkers already start with their range already to max and any upgrades they might have only make them even better.
However hydralisks, slow as they are, they also start with a lower range and need this expensive upgrade to be midly decent.
Given that Void Ray / Pheonix combo is out before hydralisks usually and that pheonixes are not so bad against hydras, I am wondering why it is necessary to spend that 150/150 to use this unit.
Any thoughts? Any other implication this upgrade might bring? What am I missing? You are missing the roach. Cheapest 1.5 unit in the game, and with a couple of cheapo upgrades owns stalkers on supply, and destroys them when comparing cost. Now having this in mind, if hydras were better, do you think a protoss could EVER win a PvZ game? The increased mobility of stalkers more than makes up for the extra 25 minerals, good blink play absolutely demolishes stalker vs hydra balls
We're talking about roaches here.
The fact that a 75/25 roach is better than a 125/50 stalker is a joke.
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The blink research time increase have no sense at all. i hope Blizzard will revert this change.
I mean, as it is, a protoss usually turtle way too much. Protoss players stay in his base for a reason: early-mid game, when speedlings/concussive shells are out, for a protoss army is impossible to retreat. With this nerf, the race mechanics will become even more broken, stupid and boring to play/watch.
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On August 29 2011 07:18 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 06:57 sharktopus. wrote:
After watching MLG this weekend, what do you guys think is the main thing preventing Protoss players from doing better, or your top 3 things? I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this.
Personally I think economy is what hurts Toss the most, especially early game. Terran can mule at 15 supply, and Zerg can drone hard with larva inject, but Toss has to continue to produce 1 probe at a time, has a hard time securing expansions early (even 3 gate expand isn't working how it once did), and can't afford to produce enough units to defend.
Think about how many times we saw Toss players getting absolutely crushed shortly after taking their second expansion (i.e. the HuK / Nada games from today).
Top 10 at the Anaheim MLG had two Protoss (7.HuK 8.Naniwa) and top 4 were terran. Top 10 at Columbus had two (3.MC 6.Naniwa), Toss did well in Dallas (1st, 2nd, and 4th), and the Raleigh MLG will end with only two Toss in the top 8 (6.HerO 7.HuK).
What do you guys think? ...
I agree with everything you said. It's actually why I haven't even played 1v1 since my placement. I know it's just a game, but losing all the time gets old, especially when you feel like you executed your build really well with minor hiccups along the way.
Colossi are difficult to use now because Zerg can either A) use infestors to neural them or B) use all their larva to create an instant anti-air force and Terran can reactor a couple stargates and have a large anti-air force in a couple minutes. Couple that with EMP and you're out of options.
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On August 29 2011 07:18 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 07:13 IVN wrote:On August 28 2011 20:33 okrane wrote:
I would like to add a question to this balance thread to see what people think.
The Hydralisk Range Upgrade
Why is it necessary?
It seems to me that it is a reminiscent of BW where all the core ranged units had a range upgrade, to keep them from being too strong early in the game where there werent that many units around.
Marines, Dragoons and Hydras had range upgrades.
But if we look at the current design, Marines and Stalkers already start with their range already to max and any upgrades they might have only make them even better.
However hydralisks, slow as they are, they also start with a lower range and need this expensive upgrade to be midly decent.
Given that Void Ray / Pheonix combo is out before hydralisks usually and that pheonixes are not so bad against hydras, I am wondering why it is necessary to spend that 150/150 to use this unit.
Any thoughts? Any other implication this upgrade might bring? What am I missing? You are missing the roach. Cheapest 1.5 unit in the game, and with a couple of cheapo upgrades owns stalkers on supply, and destroys them when comparing cost. Now having this in mind, if hydras were better, do you think a protoss could EVER win a PvZ game? The increased mobility of stalkers more than makes up for the extra 25 minerals, good blink play absolutely demolishes stalker vs hydra balls
But it doesnt. On creep hydras destroy even blink stalkers.
And the biggest problem with hydras is, that zerg users are used to the roach unit, which can even walk through storms, or burrow move under FFs while being shot at. They are used to a cheap and fast unit with little risk, that can tank a lot, and that has no simple counters.
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On August 16 2011 07:30 Xenogears wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:23 sleepingdog wrote:
On the EMP-thing: terrans might not realize or like to admit this, but EMP is actually storm and feedback combined vs protoss. It instantly takes away a huge part of "hitpoints" and takes away the ability to cast.
Feedback has never been about "killing" stuff (except maybe medivac drops) but always about preventing the opponent from casting. EMP dominates because, furthermore, ghosts can cloak.
This means, the terran only has to cloak and hit EMP, while the toss has to have perfect observer-control to spot the ghosts, then feedback them, and THEN hopefully have some HTs with energy left for storm. Usually, on the non-pro-level, you see a clumped up terran and a clumped up toss moving against each other......then if the terran hits EMP before toss hits storms it's gg, if the toss hits a storm the terran CAN STILL EMP and it will be even (unless terran takes a shower in storms).
Protoss has to spread templars (which is what terrans always tell protoss), terran doesn't have to spread because a) storm is not "instant", you can move out of it and b) even if you take some damage you still have the medivac-heal, which means the toss better have either multiple storms or colossi to finish the job. So honestly? no, I see much more terran free-wins because toss gets all HTs EMPed than I see toss free-wins because they hit 2-3 good storms.
Overall, I think it is balanced because toss only has to a-move chargelots while terran has to kite them. Also terran has to balance against the colossi/templar composition while toss has the "first mover advantage" there. But the EMP vs storm battle is definitely more challenging/micro-demanding on the toss-part.
Bull***t bro, Feedback KILLS stuff, and Storm > EMP in terms of damages, don't even get me started.... You kill armies with storm (and no you can't dodge...), and you remove shield with EMP which is most of the time less an amount than HP...
I hate people playing this "feedback kills stuff card". Every EMP on a caster unit by definition kills it too. A caster without energy is basically a wasted supply in your army. They provide no DPS, no utility in battle. The best the HT can provide is a insta-meatshield when they morph into archons. And even then, they can block your zealots from attack vs terran.
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On August 29 2011 07:18 H0i wrote:
.....................................................
Quoted for truth. Do you follow Korean SC2 scenes? How do you grasp the problem in pro balance so accurately?
Yours is the first post I've seen mentioning EMP's 'real' range is 12.
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EMP nullifies every protoss unit except for Colossus that are left with 200 HP. A few vikings can make a short work of them while Terran's main army backs off with stim. When Colossus are dead, the game is over.
The only reason Protoss is still putting up a decent fight(42% in Korea) vs Terran is because there is no terran who can execute the described steps perfectly just yet. Terran is getting nerfed constantly but strangely their win rate is never going below 60% in Korea pro scene. As soon as Terran gamers know how to place perfect EMPs, protoss will be doomed.
Don't even mention feedback. It is Impossible to kill ghosts with feedbacks because EMP's superior range(12) does not allow HT to approach.
If you still haven't, go check out Puma vs MC games in NASL final. Literally every Korean I saw on Playxp admitted MC played way better, but Puma's one EMP shots finished the game in which he was constantly 20 supplies behind all the time. This never happens in protoss's favor. U gotta know EMP is OP when there are so many games where well placed EMP flips 20~50 supply difference. (MC vs Puma in Metal, Day 9 cast. MC's 200 army is devastated by Puma's 150 army and EMP)
The problem is protoss has no way to deal with EMP. It must be nerfed one way or another.
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On August 29 2011 07:18 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 06:57 sharktopus. wrote:
After watching MLG this weekend, what do you guys think is the main thing preventing Protoss players from doing better, or your top 3 things? I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this.
Personally I think economy is what hurts Toss the most, especially early game. Terran can mule at 15 supply, and Zerg can drone hard with larva inject, but Toss has to continue to produce 1 probe at a time, has a hard time securing expansions early (even 3 gate expand isn't working how it once did), and can't afford to produce enough units to defend.
Think about how many times we saw Toss players getting absolutely crushed shortly after taking their second expansion (i.e. the HuK / Nada games from today).
Top 10 at the Anaheim MLG had two Protoss (7.HuK 8.Naniwa) and top 4 were terran. Top 10 at Columbus had two (3.MC 6.Naniwa), Toss did well in Dallas (1st, 2nd, and 4th), and the Raleigh MLG will end with only two Toss in the top 8 (6.HerO 7.HuK).
What do you guys think? PvT: - The 1-1-1 build is, when executed properly (when terran doesn't forget to research siege or siege up), incredibly difficult, if not impossible to hold off. - EMP. 50% health removed from stalkers and sentries, 33% from zealots. Removes energy which nullifies forcefield and storms. Has 3 more range effectively than feedback. Huge aoe, bigger than storm (1.5) emp has aoe of 2. Instant cast, instant damage. Impossible to dodge. You don't have to research it. No more amulet, but ghosts can get a similar upgrade. They also come really early in the game. Nullifies archons. Nullifies immortal hardened shields. Add to this how focused the protoss game is around forcefield and storm, and we see the problem. I refer to mc vs puma IEM game 2 for this. Also check game 1 and 3 to see the power of the 1-1-1. Mc played a lot better in game 1 and 2 but still just lost. If terran gets 1 good emp off they can stim a move and win. PvZ: - All those nerfs to protoss resulted in them no longer being able to pressure the zerg. Any pvz that enters the midgame has a situation where the zerg is ahead. Expanding means zerg can get a third safely and fast, this means at some point it's 40 probes vs 80 drones and then you just die because of swarming. 1 base protoss is incredibly weak, 4 gate was already figured out and after that nerfed to hell as well. This results in protoss relying on 2base pushes like 6gate or colossus pushes which give at least a chance to the protoss player. This is also the reason 1-1-1 has become so effective. - Zerg macro mechanics are just too strong. Protoss can not keep up, and can not pressure to stay even. Stargates, dt, that all doesn't work anymore. General: The problem is simple. Protoss has a horribly weak early game. Stalkers are horrible horrible units, they are less cost effective than workers (this is not a joke, use the unit tester and you will see). Force field is strong when used properly, so zealots and stalkers can not be strong because of that. Resulting in protoss units being very weak in small numbers, they rely on deathballs. Zerg can outmacro protoss and there is nothing they can do about it. Terran just has better units which are more cost effective and better in small numbers, also 1 good emp means gg for protoss. Force field and colossus are so strong because the base units of protoss are so weak and their upgrades are so expensive. Force field needs to be a defensive ability, and much less an offensive one. For example the duration could be changed to somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds when it is not casted in a power field. This will allow a significant boost to gateway unit strength/upgrade cost, and a big nerf to emp. Colossus just need to be reavers again, the model of colossus doesn't work. I call them disposable super batteries, they can work in certain timings and can be exploited to get a chance to win, but when a viking or two pop out they are useless and you can't get them anymore. It's also impossible to micro them, they're 1a units. The KA removal also really hurts. Warp in storms were too much, but KA could give only +15 energy and maybe make templars a bit faster. Overall it just feels like units are very weak, emp and zerg macro mechanics are unstoppable, units are all cost ineffective and creativity and flexibility is impossible. The race feels like it was designed to be weaker, and it also feels incomplete. Chrono boost feels like all research was changed to be 50% slower and that with constant chrono boost it changes to the original time. And yes a whole lot of protoss crying there. I like protoss but they're just a lot weaker and worse when compared to the other races, that's why I switched to random. lets talk about the emp, did you ever heard of SPREADING??? terrans needed to learn it cuzz of banes, z needed to learn it cuzz off ffe and cant 1a anymore, and toss now for emp, so dont cry-,- ever heard and you might as well usen feedback, collo in front in your army cuzz you CAN micro, used probelry you can hit a few good shots what does like 300% more than with amove-,-
about PVZ: ever heard about kiwi? he did like an 4gate with an expo and almost killed the z, you be creativ and try out those sorts of timings. and if you look at bw 2, the general concept is attack and expend behind it, and there is a reason for it.
general: force field are made to help out your own unit, use properly it can heling way mroe your zeal/stalker instead of making the less efficant, and they arent weak AT ALL, you need to have a good balance with ranged and tankers, and did you see the hero vs mooman?? great stalker control and it payed for them selfs even at the beginning of the game so stop crying and focus better on your timings-,-
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On August 29 2011 07:57 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 07:18 H0i wrote:On August 29 2011 06:57 sharktopus. wrote:
After watching MLG this weekend, what do you guys think is the main thing preventing Protoss players from doing better, or your top 3 things? I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this.
Personally I think economy is what hurts Toss the most, especially early game. Terran can mule at 15 supply, and Zerg can drone hard with larva inject, but Toss has to continue to produce 1 probe at a time, has a hard time securing expansions early (even 3 gate expand isn't working how it once did), and can't afford to produce enough units to defend.
Think about how many times we saw Toss players getting absolutely crushed shortly after taking their second expansion (i.e. the HuK / Nada games from today).
Top 10 at the Anaheim MLG had two Protoss (7.HuK 8.Naniwa) and top 4 were terran. Top 10 at Columbus had two (3.MC 6.Naniwa), Toss did well in Dallas (1st, 2nd, and 4th), and the Raleigh MLG will end with only two Toss in the top 8 (6.HerO 7.HuK).
What do you guys think? PvT: - The 1-1-1 build is, when executed properly (when terran doesn't forget to research siege or siege up), incredibly difficult, if not impossible to hold off. - EMP. 50% health removed from stalkers and sentries, 33% from zealots. Removes energy which nullifies forcefield and storms. Has 3 more range effectively than feedback. Huge aoe, bigger than storm (1.5) emp has aoe of 2. Instant cast, instant damage. Impossible to dodge. You don't have to research it. No more amulet, but ghosts can get a similar upgrade. They also come really early in the game. Nullifies archons. Nullifies immortal hardened shields. Add to this how focused the protoss game is around forcefield and storm, and we see the problem. I refer to mc vs puma IEM game 2 for this. Also check game 1 and 3 to see the power of the 1-1-1. Mc played a lot better in game 1 and 2 but still just lost. If terran gets 1 good emp off they can stim a move and win. PvZ: - All those nerfs to protoss resulted in them no longer being able to pressure the zerg. Any pvz that enters the midgame has a situation where the zerg is ahead. Expanding means zerg can get a third safely and fast, this means at some point it's 40 probes vs 80 drones and then you just die because of swarming. 1 base protoss is incredibly weak, 4 gate was already figured out and after that nerfed to hell as well. This results in protoss relying on 2base pushes like 6gate or colossus pushes which give at least a chance to the protoss player. This is also the reason 1-1-1 has become so effective. - Zerg macro mechanics are just too strong. Protoss can not keep up, and can not pressure to stay even. Stargates, dt, that all doesn't work anymore. General: The problem is simple. Protoss has a horribly weak early game. Stalkers are horrible horrible units, they are less cost effective than workers (this is not a joke, use the unit tester and you will see). Force field is strong when used properly, so zealots and stalkers can not be strong because of that. Resulting in protoss units being very weak in small numbers, they rely on deathballs. Zerg can outmacro protoss and there is nothing they can do about it. Terran just has better units which are more cost effective and better in small numbers, also 1 good emp means gg for protoss. Force field and colossus are so strong because the base units of protoss are so weak and their upgrades are so expensive. Force field needs to be a defensive ability, and much less an offensive one. For example the duration could be changed to somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds when it is not casted in a power field. This will allow a significant boost to gateway unit strength/upgrade cost, and a big nerf to emp. Colossus just need to be reavers again, the model of colossus doesn't work. I call them disposable super batteries, they can work in certain timings and can be exploited to get a chance to win, but when a viking or two pop out they are useless and you can't get them anymore. It's also impossible to micro them, they're 1a units. The KA removal also really hurts. Warp in storms were too much, but KA could give only +15 energy and maybe make templars a bit faster. Overall it just feels like units are very weak, emp and zerg macro mechanics are unstoppable, units are all cost ineffective and creativity and flexibility is impossible. The race feels like it was designed to be weaker, and it also feels incomplete. Chrono boost feels like all research was changed to be 50% slower and that with constant chrono boost it changes to the original time. And yes a whole lot of protoss crying there. I like protoss but they're just a lot weaker and worse when compared to the other races, that's why I switched to random. lets talk about the emp, did you ever heard of SPREADING??? terrans needed to learn it cuzz of banes, z needed to learn it cuzz off ffe and cant 1a anymore, and toss now for emp, so dont cry-,- ever heard and you might as well usen feedback, collo in front in your army cuzz you CAN micro, used probelry you can hit a few good shots what does like 300% more than with amove-,- Spreading doesn't do anything, if there's 2 or 3 ghosts mixed in Terran's army then they'll get off 2 or 3 EMP's. Spreading just delays the inevitableabout PVZ: ever heard about kiwi? he did like an 4gate with an expo and almost killed the z, you be creativ and try out those sorts of timings. and if you look at bw 2, the general concept is attack and expend behind it, and there is a reason for it. key word: almostgeneral: force field are made to help out your own unit, use properly it can heling way mroe your zeal/stalker instead of making the less efficant, and they arent weak AT ALL, you need to have a good balance with ranged and tankers, and did you see the hero vs mooman?? great stalker control and it payed for them selfs even at the beginning of the game so stop crying and focus better on your timings-,- How can you forcefield if EMP takes all of your sentry energy? Not to mention the fact that roaches just burrow under it and can tank so much damage that it hardly matters if you are shooting them while they are burrowed
My responses are in bold
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On August 29 2011 06:57 sabas123 . wrote:
lets talk about the emp, did you ever heard of SPREADING
NO. EMP is near instant. Tell me you can dodge banelings that fall from the sky like mules. Terrans don't spread against slow-Damage-dealing storms, they just dodge it with stim-move. And you are asking protosses to spread against instant EMP with slower high-templars. Are you joking?
Colossus CAN'T snipe ghosts. Tell me you know units called vikings that has same range with Colossus.
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On August 29 2011 07:57 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 07:18 H0i wrote:On August 29 2011 06:57 sharktopus. wrote:
After watching MLG this weekend, what do you guys think is the main thing preventing Protoss players from doing better, or your top 3 things? I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this.
Personally I think economy is what hurts Toss the most, especially early game. Terran can mule at 15 supply, and Zerg can drone hard with larva inject, but Toss has to continue to produce 1 probe at a time, has a hard time securing expansions early (even 3 gate expand isn't working how it once did), and can't afford to produce enough units to defend.
Think about how many times we saw Toss players getting absolutely crushed shortly after taking their second expansion (i.e. the HuK / Nada games from today).
Top 10 at the Anaheim MLG had two Protoss (7.HuK 8.Naniwa) and top 4 were terran. Top 10 at Columbus had two (3.MC 6.Naniwa), Toss did well in Dallas (1st, 2nd, and 4th), and the Raleigh MLG will end with only two Toss in the top 8 (6.HerO 7.HuK).
What do you guys think? PvT: - The 1-1-1 build is, when executed properly (when terran doesn't forget to research siege or siege up), incredibly difficult, if not impossible to hold off. - EMP. 50% health removed from stalkers and sentries, 33% from zealots. Removes energy which nullifies forcefield and storms. Has 3 more range effectively than feedback. Huge aoe, bigger than storm (1.5) emp has aoe of 2. Instant cast, instant damage. Impossible to dodge. You don't have to research it. No more amulet, but ghosts can get a similar upgrade. They also come really early in the game. Nullifies archons. Nullifies immortal hardened shields. Add to this how focused the protoss game is around forcefield and storm, and we see the problem. I refer to mc vs puma IEM game 2 for this. Also check game 1 and 3 to see the power of the 1-1-1. Mc played a lot better in game 1 and 2 but still just lost. If terran gets 1 good emp off they can stim a move and win. PvZ: - All those nerfs to protoss resulted in them no longer being able to pressure the zerg. Any pvz that enters the midgame has a situation where the zerg is ahead. Expanding means zerg can get a third safely and fast, this means at some point it's 40 probes vs 80 drones and then you just die because of swarming. 1 base protoss is incredibly weak, 4 gate was already figured out and after that nerfed to hell as well. This results in protoss relying on 2base pushes like 6gate or colossus pushes which give at least a chance to the protoss player. This is also the reason 1-1-1 has become so effective. - Zerg macro mechanics are just too strong. Protoss can not keep up, and can not pressure to stay even. Stargates, dt, that all doesn't work anymore. General: The problem is simple. Protoss has a horribly weak early game. Stalkers are horrible horrible units, they are less cost effective than workers (this is not a joke, use the unit tester and you will see). Force field is strong when used properly, so zealots and stalkers can not be strong because of that. Resulting in protoss units being very weak in small numbers, they rely on deathballs. Zerg can outmacro protoss and there is nothing they can do about it. Terran just has better units which are more cost effective and better in small numbers, also 1 good emp means gg for protoss. Force field and colossus are so strong because the base units of protoss are so weak and their upgrades are so expensive. Force field needs to be a defensive ability, and much less an offensive one. For example the duration could be changed to somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds when it is not casted in a power field. This will allow a significant boost to gateway unit strength/upgrade cost, and a big nerf to emp. Colossus just need to be reavers again, the model of colossus doesn't work. I call them disposable super batteries, they can work in certain timings and can be exploited to get a chance to win, but when a viking or two pop out they are useless and you can't get them anymore. It's also impossible to micro them, they're 1a units. The KA removal also really hurts. Warp in storms were too much, but KA could give only +15 energy and maybe make templars a bit faster. Overall it just feels like units are very weak, emp and zerg macro mechanics are unstoppable, units are all cost ineffective and creativity and flexibility is impossible. The race feels like it was designed to be weaker, and it also feels incomplete. Chrono boost feels like all research was changed to be 50% slower and that with constant chrono boost it changes to the original time. And yes a whole lot of protoss crying there. I like protoss but they're just a lot weaker and worse when compared to the other races, that's why I switched to random. lets talk about the emp, did you ever heard of SPREADING??? terrans needed to learn it cuzz of banes, z needed to learn it cuzz off ffe and cant 1a anymore, and toss now for emp, so dont cry-,- ever heard and you might as well usen feedback, collo in front in your army cuzz you CAN micro, used probelry you can hit a few good shots what does like 300% more than with amove-,- about PVZ: ever heard about kiwi? he did like an 4gate with an expo and almost killed the z, you be creativ and try out those sorts of timings. and if you look at bw 2, the general concept is attack and expend behind it, and there is a reason for it. general: force field are made to help out your own unit, use properly it can heling way mroe your zeal/stalker instead of making the less efficant, and they arent weak AT ALL, you need to have a good balance with ranged and tankers, and did you see the hero vs mooman?? great stalker control and it payed for them selfs even at the beginning of the game so stop crying and focus better on your timings-,-
First of all please learn to format your post in a way that makes it readable. Secondly you're telling me to stop crying, but it really looks like you're crying here. I come with good arguments, and you state the obvious, for example the fact that you need to micro marines against banelings. Also that MLG kiwi game you're talking about wasn't like you described at all, so unless you're talking about games from a long time ago where warpgates came faster which meant 4gate did at least some damage this "argument" also doesn't count.
I find it cute how you try to teach me basic game concepts like "attack and expand behind it", which by the way sounds like you're just copying day9, while you obviously don't understand how to format posts and it looks like you have no clue about how this game really works and what is going on.
Try again. Next time you make a post try to provide arguments, because in discussions we use arguments. Usually you also respond to arguments someone else used, and then explain why you agree or disagree, instead of trying to prove someone wrong by typing up an incoherent post with no arguments at all.
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On August 29 2011 07:57 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 07:18 H0i wrote:On August 29 2011 06:57 sharktopus. wrote:
After watching MLG this weekend, what do you guys think is the main thing preventing Protoss players from doing better, or your top 3 things? I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this.
Personally I think economy is what hurts Toss the most, especially early game. Terran can mule at 15 supply, and Zerg can drone hard with larva inject, but Toss has to continue to produce 1 probe at a time, has a hard time securing expansions early (even 3 gate expand isn't working how it once did), and can't afford to produce enough units to defend.
Think about how many times we saw Toss players getting absolutely crushed shortly after taking their second expansion (i.e. the HuK / Nada games from today).
Top 10 at the Anaheim MLG had two Protoss (7.HuK 8.Naniwa) and top 4 were terran. Top 10 at Columbus had two (3.MC 6.Naniwa), Toss did well in Dallas (1st, 2nd, and 4th), and the Raleigh MLG will end with only two Toss in the top 8 (6.HerO 7.HuK).
What do you guys think? PvT: - The 1-1-1 build is, when executed properly (when terran doesn't forget to research siege or siege up), incredibly difficult, if not impossible to hold off. - EMP. 50% health removed from stalkers and sentries, 33% from zealots. Removes energy which nullifies forcefield and storms. Has 3 more range effectively than feedback. Huge aoe, bigger than storm (1.5) emp has aoe of 2. Instant cast, instant damage. Impossible to dodge. You don't have to research it. No more amulet, but ghosts can get a similar upgrade. They also come really early in the game. Nullifies archons. Nullifies immortal hardened shields. Add to this how focused the protoss game is around forcefield and storm, and we see the problem. I refer to mc vs puma IEM game 2 for this. Also check game 1 and 3 to see the power of the 1-1-1. Mc played a lot better in game 1 and 2 but still just lost. If terran gets 1 good emp off they can stim a move and win. PvZ: - All those nerfs to protoss resulted in them no longer being able to pressure the zerg. Any pvz that enters the midgame has a situation where the zerg is ahead. Expanding means zerg can get a third safely and fast, this means at some point it's 40 probes vs 80 drones and then you just die because of swarming. 1 base protoss is incredibly weak, 4 gate was already figured out and after that nerfed to hell as well. This results in protoss relying on 2base pushes like 6gate or colossus pushes which give at least a chance to the protoss player. This is also the reason 1-1-1 has become so effective. - Zerg macro mechanics are just too strong. Protoss can not keep up, and can not pressure to stay even. Stargates, dt, that all doesn't work anymore. General: The problem is simple. Protoss has a horribly weak early game. Stalkers are horrible horrible units, they are less cost effective than workers (this is not a joke, use the unit tester and you will see). Force field is strong when used properly, so zealots and stalkers can not be strong because of that. Resulting in protoss units being very weak in small numbers, they rely on deathballs. Zerg can outmacro protoss and there is nothing they can do about it. Terran just has better units which are more cost effective and better in small numbers, also 1 good emp means gg for protoss. Force field and colossus are so strong because the base units of protoss are so weak and their upgrades are so expensive. Force field needs to be a defensive ability, and much less an offensive one. For example the duration could be changed to somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds when it is not casted in a power field. This will allow a significant boost to gateway unit strength/upgrade cost, and a big nerf to emp. Colossus just need to be reavers again, the model of colossus doesn't work. I call them disposable super batteries, they can work in certain timings and can be exploited to get a chance to win, but when a viking or two pop out they are useless and you can't get them anymore. It's also impossible to micro them, they're 1a units. The KA removal also really hurts. Warp in storms were too much, but KA could give only +15 energy and maybe make templars a bit faster. Overall it just feels like units are very weak, emp and zerg macro mechanics are unstoppable, units are all cost ineffective and creativity and flexibility is impossible. The race feels like it was designed to be weaker, and it also feels incomplete. Chrono boost feels like all research was changed to be 50% slower and that with constant chrono boost it changes to the original time. And yes a whole lot of protoss crying there. I like protoss but they're just a lot weaker and worse when compared to the other races, that's why I switched to random. lets talk about the emp, did you ever heard of SPREADING??? terrans needed to learn it cuzz of banes, z needed to learn it cuzz off ffe and cant 1a anymore, and toss now for emp, so dont cry-,- ever heard and you might as well usen feedback, collo in front in your army cuzz you CAN micro, used probelry you can hit a few good shots what does like 300% more than with amove-,- about PVZ: ever heard about kiwi? he did like an 4gate with an expo and almost killed the z, you be creativ and try out those sorts of timings. and if you look at bw 2, the general concept is attack and expend behind it, and there is a reason for it. general: force field are made to help out your own unit, use properly it can heling way mroe your zeal/stalker instead of making the less efficant, and they arent weak AT ALL, you need to have a good balance with ranged and tankers, and did you see the hero vs mooman?? great stalker control and it payed for them selfs even at the beginning of the game so stop crying and focus better on your timings-,-
This has to be a troll post.
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On August 29 2011 07:43 highsis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 07:18 H0i wrote:
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Quoted for truth. Do you follow Korean SC2 scenes? How do you grasp the problem in pro balance so accurately? Yours is the first post I've seen mentioning EMP's 'real' range is 12.
I kind of follow the korean scene. I don't watch all games, tvt gets boring quickly. Thanks for the compliment, usually I'm very good at analyzing situations, describing the problems and thinking about solutions, so I guess that also works on starcraft 2 balance.
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EPT
