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On April 12 2013 23:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 22:53 Plansix wrote:On April 12 2013 22:50 Big J wrote:On April 12 2013 22:40 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 12 2013 22:03 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:55 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 12 2013 21:35 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:31 sage_francis wrote:
mines should just die after exploding like real mines do. Sc2 mines are more like defensive/offensive turrets. Its a nonsense to call it "mine".
I think real mines should be landed by helions, remove blue flame, remove this silly, bad design and redondant unit that is hellbat. Instead of making hellions shoot fire, they should shoot small grenades and should be able to move while firing. And the Thor should just be smaller and let it have a single target AA attack with something like a machine gun! Oh and Ravens instead of Missiles, should just have Irradiate, man imagine if the metagame shifts to a 2 Raven opener, casting irradiate on each other and killing all the workers! This isn't BW, and it seems very clear that Blizzard does not want to take many designs from that game. Do not agree. SC2 takes essentially every unit from BW and updates it for the SC2 engine. Also, I know some people might flame me for saying this, but I think HoTS is a harder game, all things considered, than BW. I think it's a different kind of difficulty. BW was not just facing your opponent but the game too, I remember how it made my life a living hell to just attack, so I turtled till carriers came to kill me. I think they take roles from BW but not unit design. Like the Swarm Host. How easy would it have been to pick the Lurker right up, plop it back in and be like here's the new siege unit that doesn't involve more spawning stuff. On April 12 2013 21:57 sage_francis wrote:On April 12 2013 21:49 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:42 sage_francis wrote:On April 12 2013 21:35 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:31 sage_francis wrote:
mines should just die after exploding like real mines do. Sc2 mines are more like defensive/offensive turrets. Its a nonsense to call it "mine".
I think real mines should be landed by helions, remove blue flame, remove this silly, bad design and redondant unit that is hellbat. Instead of making hellions shoot fire, they should shoot small grenades and should be able to move while firing. And the Thor should just be smaller and let it have a single target AA attack with something like a machine gun! Oh and Ravens instead of Missiles, should just have Irradiate, man imagine if the metagame shifts to a 2 Raven opener, casting irradiate on each other and killing all the workers! This isn't BW, and it seems very clear that Blizzard does not want to take many designs from that game. Why are you exagerating what i said? I just think vulture mechanics make more sense and is more appropriate to this game than the helion/mine combination because we are talkng about mines. Im perfectly fine with ravens and thors. Who talked about goliaths? or vessels? Its you and only you. Because it's never going to happen. What's the point in trying to think of new ways to tweak a mainstay in 2 of the Terran's MU's when it's never going to happen? I wish i had your amazing talent to bash posts because u know what is going to happen in the future. Did you really expected a speed and free upgrade on one of the main Terr unit when nobody was complaining about it? Otherwise, interesting thoughts bro. You're right, I didn't know that medivac boosts was going to come. But it's not like that changed how the medivac was. In fact, the boost just promoted it's longevity, which people already were doing with picking up failed drops and dropping later. Considering you're suggesting a vast change that removes units and placing a variation of it on another, do you really think that's something that is within the realm of possibility? Come on now. And people were complaining for ages about Terran late game viability compared to the other races, especially during the last legs of WoL. Well yeah I probably should have chosen the word "roles" instead of unit design. But you can definitely trace every brood war unit's role to HoTS. The Swarm Host was about as close to a Lurker as they could get with the SC2 engine. If you can imagine how easy it would be to micro around the BW lurker in the sc2 engine, well yeah it wouldn't fit well at all. Lol. The swarm host has nothing in common with the lurker apart from being able to burrow. The lurker is a mid range splash unit, gasheavy ans on a sidetrack of zerg tech. The swarm host is a "superior range" siege unit, not too expensive and on the maintechtrack. One is used to make an opponents life hard when going on the map, the other to make him come out and play. If you want to compare the lurker to something in sc2, then the closest thing is burowed banelings or widow mines. How about a Colossi that can burrow and shoots straight out? Mmmmmm cloaked, immobile, one beam colossi. wouldnt a burrowed colossus still be halfway out of the ground? And attackable by burrowed roaches?
God, that would look so dumb I kinda want it. This stupid half burrowed egg that is somehow untargetable without detection and shoots lines of fiery death.
But seriously, most of the BW units would be totally messed up in the SC2 engine. Lurkers would be with if the colossi and widow mine had a horrible baby that ruined lives. Lets not even talk about storms that filled up an 8th of the screen. And no one talks about how screens were small in those days.
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On April 12 2013 22:14 Usernameffs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 22:03 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:57 Usernameffs wrote:
zerg need a mine sweeper a big tank that just take mine hits. like a ULTRALISKATANK. Ultras is like a minesweeper but thats tier 3... Stephano is trying out a fast hive to ultras for that purpose. Make sense i also go fast ultras against mines its to risky to stay on just lings against mines you cant break him with that. I think roach ling bling to ultras is really good with mutas. Maybe infestors to you can sack the mutas at the end and make infestors with the ultras.
That's what I noticed to be the best comp. Ultra, infestor, with a hint of bling.
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On April 12 2013 23:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 22:53 Plansix wrote:On April 12 2013 22:50 Big J wrote:On April 12 2013 22:40 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 12 2013 22:03 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:55 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 12 2013 21:35 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:31 sage_francis wrote:
mines should just die after exploding like real mines do. Sc2 mines are more like defensive/offensive turrets. Its a nonsense to call it "mine".
I think real mines should be landed by helions, remove blue flame, remove this silly, bad design and redondant unit that is hellbat. Instead of making hellions shoot fire, they should shoot small grenades and should be able to move while firing. And the Thor should just be smaller and let it have a single target AA attack with something like a machine gun! Oh and Ravens instead of Missiles, should just have Irradiate, man imagine if the metagame shifts to a 2 Raven opener, casting irradiate on each other and killing all the workers! This isn't BW, and it seems very clear that Blizzard does not want to take many designs from that game. Do not agree. SC2 takes essentially every unit from BW and updates it for the SC2 engine. Also, I know some people might flame me for saying this, but I think HoTS is a harder game, all things considered, than BW. I think it's a different kind of difficulty. BW was not just facing your opponent but the game too, I remember how it made my life a living hell to just attack, so I turtled till carriers came to kill me. I think they take roles from BW but not unit design. Like the Swarm Host. How easy would it have been to pick the Lurker right up, plop it back in and be like here's the new siege unit that doesn't involve more spawning stuff. On April 12 2013 21:57 sage_francis wrote:On April 12 2013 21:49 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:42 sage_francis wrote:On April 12 2013 21:35 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:31 sage_francis wrote:
mines should just die after exploding like real mines do. Sc2 mines are more like defensive/offensive turrets. Its a nonsense to call it "mine".
I think real mines should be landed by helions, remove blue flame, remove this silly, bad design and redondant unit that is hellbat. Instead of making hellions shoot fire, they should shoot small grenades and should be able to move while firing. And the Thor should just be smaller and let it have a single target AA attack with something like a machine gun! Oh and Ravens instead of Missiles, should just have Irradiate, man imagine if the metagame shifts to a 2 Raven opener, casting irradiate on each other and killing all the workers! This isn't BW, and it seems very clear that Blizzard does not want to take many designs from that game. Why are you exagerating what i said? I just think vulture mechanics make more sense and is more appropriate to this game than the helion/mine combination because we are talkng about mines. Im perfectly fine with ravens and thors. Who talked about goliaths? or vessels? Its you and only you. Because it's never going to happen. What's the point in trying to think of new ways to tweak a mainstay in 2 of the Terran's MU's when it's never going to happen? I wish i had your amazing talent to bash posts because u know what is going to happen in the future. Did you really expected a speed and free upgrade on one of the main Terr unit when nobody was complaining about it? Otherwise, interesting thoughts bro. You're right, I didn't know that medivac boosts was going to come. But it's not like that changed how the medivac was. In fact, the boost just promoted it's longevity, which people already were doing with picking up failed drops and dropping later. Considering you're suggesting a vast change that removes units and placing a variation of it on another, do you really think that's something that is within the realm of possibility? Come on now. And people were complaining for ages about Terran late game viability compared to the other races, especially during the last legs of WoL. Well yeah I probably should have chosen the word "roles" instead of unit design. But you can definitely trace every brood war unit's role to HoTS. The Swarm Host was about as close to a Lurker as they could get with the SC2 engine. If you can imagine how easy it would be to micro around the BW lurker in the sc2 engine, well yeah it wouldn't fit well at all. Lol. The swarm host has nothing in common with the lurker apart from being able to burrow. The lurker is a mid range splash unit, gasheavy ans on a sidetrack of zerg tech. The swarm host is a "superior range" siege unit, not too expensive and on the maintechtrack. One is used to make an opponents life hard when going on the map, the other to make him come out and play. If you want to compare the lurker to something in sc2, then the closest thing is burowed banelings or widow mines. How about a Colossi that can burrow and shoots straight out? Mmmmmm cloaked, immobile, one beam colossi. wouldnt a burrowed colossus still be halfway out of the ground? And attackable by burrowed roaches?
I died laughing about a Colossi seeing vikings, burrowing to avoid the shots and a marauder coming to kill it lmao
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On April 12 2013 12:05 Dudasc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 11:57 iky43210 wrote:On April 12 2013 10:07 Merkmerk wrote:On April 12 2013 06:59 SlixSC wrote:On April 12 2013 05:41 Big J wrote:On April 12 2013 04:46 SlixSC wrote:aligulac is not very reliable. they are missing roughly 25% of all games played just in the GSL qualifiers alone. If you really want to have accurate statistics you can't just leave out 25% of all the games played in any given tournament. a) as long as the left out games are arbitrary it doesn't matter statistically b) qualifiers shouldn't be in there anyways, because everyone can participate and therefore you get many pro vs nonpro games which are won by the pro no matter what. And therefore the winrates turn out closer to 50:50 than they should be. c) I wish people would stop calling every statistic inaccurate for some reason or another. Yeah sure they are inaccurate. It's statistic. It's always going to be inaccurate to some degree. Be happy that we get stuff to work with, even if it is not perfect. You realize that I'm not just complaining but actually doing something and making more accurate statistics. And "as long as the left out games are arbitrary" is a meaningless statement, how could you possibly prove that they were left out arbitrarily. And a) is strongly contradicated by b), you understand the central limit theorem, but only apply it to a) but not to b). Which makes me think that you are heavily biased, for whatever reason. Oh shut the hell up. He provided ACTUAL STATISTICAL DATA that shows a significant imbalance in TvZ - one that appears to be getting worse based on looking at masters/GM TvZ win %s. You simply don't like the stat because you're a plat player like me and sometimes you get beaten by a Zerg who outplays you so therefore you think it must be balanced. Just hush. when we can have people like polt coming into NA GM with something like 90% winrates smashing through everybody, what use are those statistics? what you are getting is literally how many korean terran smurfs over at NA. Look at dragon, inno, polt, forgg etc. Just look at the GSL qualifier. Twice as many zerg pass over Terran, sure is imbalance showing. One can argue that the game is not figured out yet but denying the fact that terrans are over 60% win rate vs zerg in pro matches is just being deliberately stupid.
It is, but just remember, people made the same stupid arguments when WoL came out and TvZ was even worse. Then Fruitdealer won a major tourney and it got worse.
The simple fact is that every imbalance in every competitive game has always gone through this. People actually argued that Zerg was fine in vanilla SC, even though their win rates against Protoss and Terran were huge, and people actually argued that TvP was fine, even though Protoss dominated Terran with reaver drops.
Now, everyone looks back and chuckles. But then, you had people pouring over the forums making the same stupid arguments that they are now.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Terran bio is too cost effective against Zerg, and that WM are overpowered. Maybe this means Terran needs some buffs to their late game comps, and nerfs to early game comps - it's stupid that Terran can remain competitive with any combination of T3 late game Zerg units using the same MMM they use all game long.
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On April 12 2013 23:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 23:01 Big J wrote:On April 12 2013 22:53 Plansix wrote:On April 12 2013 22:50 Big J wrote:On April 12 2013 22:40 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 12 2013 22:03 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:55 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 12 2013 21:35 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:31 sage_francis wrote:
mines should just die after exploding like real mines do. Sc2 mines are more like defensive/offensive turrets. Its a nonsense to call it "mine".
I think real mines should be landed by helions, remove blue flame, remove this silly, bad design and redondant unit that is hellbat. Instead of making hellions shoot fire, they should shoot small grenades and should be able to move while firing. And the Thor should just be smaller and let it have a single target AA attack with something like a machine gun! Oh and Ravens instead of Missiles, should just have Irradiate, man imagine if the metagame shifts to a 2 Raven opener, casting irradiate on each other and killing all the workers! This isn't BW, and it seems very clear that Blizzard does not want to take many designs from that game. Do not agree. SC2 takes essentially every unit from BW and updates it for the SC2 engine. Also, I know some people might flame me for saying this, but I think HoTS is a harder game, all things considered, than BW. I think it's a different kind of difficulty. BW was not just facing your opponent but the game too, I remember how it made my life a living hell to just attack, so I turtled till carriers came to kill me. I think they take roles from BW but not unit design. Like the Swarm Host. How easy would it have been to pick the Lurker right up, plop it back in and be like here's the new siege unit that doesn't involve more spawning stuff. On April 12 2013 21:57 sage_francis wrote:On April 12 2013 21:49 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:42 sage_francis wrote:On April 12 2013 21:35 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
Instead of making hellions shoot fire, they should shoot small grenades and should be able to move while firing. And the Thor should just be smaller and let it have a single target AA attack with something like a machine gun! Oh and Ravens instead of Missiles, should just have Irradiate, man imagine if the metagame shifts to a 2 Raven opener, casting irradiate on each other and killing all the workers!
This isn't BW, and it seems very clear that Blizzard does not want to take many designs from that game. Why are you exagerating what i said? I just think vulture mechanics make more sense and is more appropriate to this game than the helion/mine combination because we are talkng about mines. Im perfectly fine with ravens and thors. Who talked about goliaths? or vessels? Its you and only you. Because it's never going to happen. What's the point in trying to think of new ways to tweak a mainstay in 2 of the Terran's MU's when it's never going to happen? I wish i had your amazing talent to bash posts because u know what is going to happen in the future. Did you really expected a speed and free upgrade on one of the main Terr unit when nobody was complaining about it? Otherwise, interesting thoughts bro. You're right, I didn't know that medivac boosts was going to come. But it's not like that changed how the medivac was. In fact, the boost just promoted it's longevity, which people already were doing with picking up failed drops and dropping later. Considering you're suggesting a vast change that removes units and placing a variation of it on another, do you really think that's something that is within the realm of possibility? Come on now. And people were complaining for ages about Terran late game viability compared to the other races, especially during the last legs of WoL. Well yeah I probably should have chosen the word "roles" instead of unit design. But you can definitely trace every brood war unit's role to HoTS. The Swarm Host was about as close to a Lurker as they could get with the SC2 engine. If you can imagine how easy it would be to micro around the BW lurker in the sc2 engine, well yeah it wouldn't fit well at all. Lol. The swarm host has nothing in common with the lurker apart from being able to burrow. The lurker is a mid range splash unit, gasheavy ans on a sidetrack of zerg tech. The swarm host is a "superior range" siege unit, not too expensive and on the maintechtrack. One is used to make an opponents life hard when going on the map, the other to make him come out and play. If you want to compare the lurker to something in sc2, then the closest thing is burowed banelings or widow mines. How about a Colossi that can burrow and shoots straight out? Mmmmmm cloaked, immobile, one beam colossi. wouldnt a burrowed colossus still be halfway out of the ground? And attackable by burrowed roaches? God, that would look so dumb I kinda want it. This stupid half burrowed egg that is somehow untargetable without detection and shoots lines of fiery death. But seriously, most of the BW units would be totally messed up in the SC2 engine. Lurkers would be with if the colossi and widow mine had a horrible baby that ruined lives. Lets not even talk about storms that filled up an 8th of the screen. And no one talks about how screens were small in those days.
If you think storms are bad just think about this.
Reavers in SC2...
With the clumping nature you could kill 50supply with 1hit 
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On April 13 2013 00:31 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 23:11 Plansix wrote:On April 12 2013 23:01 Big J wrote:On April 12 2013 22:53 Plansix wrote:On April 12 2013 22:50 Big J wrote:On April 12 2013 22:40 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 12 2013 22:03 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:55 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 12 2013 21:35 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:31 sage_francis wrote:
mines should just die after exploding like real mines do. Sc2 mines are more like defensive/offensive turrets. Its a nonsense to call it "mine".
I think real mines should be landed by helions, remove blue flame, remove this silly, bad design and redondant unit that is hellbat. Instead of making hellions shoot fire, they should shoot small grenades and should be able to move while firing. And the Thor should just be smaller and let it have a single target AA attack with something like a machine gun! Oh and Ravens instead of Missiles, should just have Irradiate, man imagine if the metagame shifts to a 2 Raven opener, casting irradiate on each other and killing all the workers! This isn't BW, and it seems very clear that Blizzard does not want to take many designs from that game. Do not agree. SC2 takes essentially every unit from BW and updates it for the SC2 engine. Also, I know some people might flame me for saying this, but I think HoTS is a harder game, all things considered, than BW. I think it's a different kind of difficulty. BW was not just facing your opponent but the game too, I remember how it made my life a living hell to just attack, so I turtled till carriers came to kill me. I think they take roles from BW but not unit design. Like the Swarm Host. How easy would it have been to pick the Lurker right up, plop it back in and be like here's the new siege unit that doesn't involve more spawning stuff. On April 12 2013 21:57 sage_francis wrote:On April 12 2013 21:49 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:42 sage_francis wrote:
[quote]
Why are you exagerating what i said? I just think vulture mechanics make more sense and is more appropriate to this game than the helion/mine combination because we are talkng about mines.
Im perfectly fine with ravens and thors.
Who talked about goliaths? or vessels? Its you and only you. Because it's never going to happen. What's the point in trying to think of new ways to tweak a mainstay in 2 of the Terran's MU's when it's never going to happen? I wish i had your amazing talent to bash posts because u know what is going to happen in the future. Did you really expected a speed and free upgrade on one of the main Terr unit when nobody was complaining about it? Otherwise, interesting thoughts bro. You're right, I didn't know that medivac boosts was going to come. But it's not like that changed how the medivac was. In fact, the boost just promoted it's longevity, which people already were doing with picking up failed drops and dropping later. Considering you're suggesting a vast change that removes units and placing a variation of it on another, do you really think that's something that is within the realm of possibility? Come on now. And people were complaining for ages about Terran late game viability compared to the other races, especially during the last legs of WoL. Well yeah I probably should have chosen the word "roles" instead of unit design. But you can definitely trace every brood war unit's role to HoTS. The Swarm Host was about as close to a Lurker as they could get with the SC2 engine. If you can imagine how easy it would be to micro around the BW lurker in the sc2 engine, well yeah it wouldn't fit well at all. Lol. The swarm host has nothing in common with the lurker apart from being able to burrow. The lurker is a mid range splash unit, gasheavy ans on a sidetrack of zerg tech. The swarm host is a "superior range" siege unit, not too expensive and on the maintechtrack. One is used to make an opponents life hard when going on the map, the other to make him come out and play. If you want to compare the lurker to something in sc2, then the closest thing is burowed banelings or widow mines. How about a Colossi that can burrow and shoots straight out? Mmmmmm cloaked, immobile, one beam colossi. wouldnt a burrowed colossus still be halfway out of the ground? And attackable by burrowed roaches? God, that would look so dumb I kinda want it. This stupid half burrowed egg that is somehow untargetable without detection and shoots lines of fiery death. But seriously, most of the BW units would be totally messed up in the SC2 engine. Lurkers would be with if the colossi and widow mine had a horrible baby that ruined lives. Lets not even talk about storms that filled up an 8th of the screen. And no one talks about how screens were small in those days. If you think storms are bad just think about this. Reavers in SC2... With the clumping nature you could kill 50supply with 1hit
With smart targeting! Reaver drops woudl be amazing. You could drop one, it fires into the center of the clump and then you pick it up without ever having to stop controlling the warp prism. Hell, Grubby could control 3 at a time, shooting 50 supply destroying missiles.
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Please don't run too wild with the win rate percentages. To use an example, lets say 3 rax marauder was the current meta game for t v z, and zergs were opening with 1 base roach (obviously this is purely hypothetical). The win rate may be extremely high for Terrans at that point in the metagame, but it doesn't mean 3 rax marauder is broken. It means Zergs aren't adapting and countering what is currently popular.
Obviously that is an overly simple scenario, and how it really goes down is far more complex. But thats the thing, this game is incredibly complex (yet simple at the same time in some aspects) and it takes time for players to develop counters to "OP" strategies. I mean, it could even be players aren't using all the micro tricks at their disposal, or they aren't fully utilizing the tactics available to them. It doesn't necessarily have to be the units you make are "incorrect", or whatever.
My point is, the game is too complex for stuff to be overpowered or underpowered. People have to figure the game out first.
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Nice we have statistics again.
Seems legit too, at leat based on TvZ (Teran favoured till september 2011, balanced by around half of a year and then Zerg favoured post queen patch)
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I love how people come in here, ignore the more accurate statistics in favor of less accurate statistics and use these statistics to justify their clearly biased views on balance, completely unaware of the fact that their position is actually untenable.
If you are willing to use these kinds of tactics you can literally win any argument you could possibly have, ignore whatever evidence is presented to you, make up a bunch of bullshit and there you go. We have a winner.
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I'm still a little bit in the dark about Widow Mine, and I don't know if it has to be changed and if yes, how? I'm not rooting for nerfing it to the ground, one part of the problem is how well it work with Bio, because the threat of drops kind of prevent you to go to the roach hydra tech path (that deal with the mine pretty well) and how you can lose a game just to some random hit with the widow mine when you go muta ling (which is still the best option Zerg has, I guess).
However i have several idea that I would like to discuss about :
- Buff the speed of the Overseer, so when you research the upgrade it goes as the same speed as your unit. Right now, this is an issue when you cross the map with your mutalisk, the Overseer is behind and you don't see if you fly over a Widow mine or not.
- As Moonglade says on SOTG, changing the IA of the Widow mine so it's considered as a unit and Zergling attack it instead of attacking the bio as it is considered more threatening.
- Maybe showing, like the raven does, which unit is targeted by the Widow mine. It's not like something that will be easy as you'll have only 1.5 seconde to react, but it allow to micro around the Widow mine for both player and lower the randomness. On the terran side, you could more easilly switch between target and for the Zerg you could pull targeted unit away, that's kind of stuff. Spectators wise, this could be like something awesome to watch in my opinion.
- Maybe, it's probably too strong but it might be a good idea for late game and terran would have to transition away from bio+mine at a certain point, would be to make the blinding cloud of the Viper affect the Widow Mine.
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On April 13 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 00:31 Assirra wrote:On April 12 2013 23:11 Plansix wrote:On April 12 2013 23:01 Big J wrote:On April 12 2013 22:53 Plansix wrote:On April 12 2013 22:50 Big J wrote:On April 12 2013 22:40 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 12 2013 22:03 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:55 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 12 2013 21:35 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
Instead of making hellions shoot fire, they should shoot small grenades and should be able to move while firing. And the Thor should just be smaller and let it have a single target AA attack with something like a machine gun! Oh and Ravens instead of Missiles, should just have Irradiate, man imagine if the metagame shifts to a 2 Raven opener, casting irradiate on each other and killing all the workers!
This isn't BW, and it seems very clear that Blizzard does not want to take many designs from that game. Do not agree. SC2 takes essentially every unit from BW and updates it for the SC2 engine. Also, I know some people might flame me for saying this, but I think HoTS is a harder game, all things considered, than BW. I think it's a different kind of difficulty. BW was not just facing your opponent but the game too, I remember how it made my life a living hell to just attack, so I turtled till carriers came to kill me. I think they take roles from BW but not unit design. Like the Swarm Host. How easy would it have been to pick the Lurker right up, plop it back in and be like here's the new siege unit that doesn't involve more spawning stuff. On April 12 2013 21:57 sage_francis wrote:On April 12 2013 21:49 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
Because it's never going to happen. What's the point in trying to think of new ways to tweak a mainstay in 2 of the Terran's MU's when it's never going to happen? I wish i had your amazing talent to bash posts because u know what is going to happen in the future. Did you really expected a speed and free upgrade on one of the main Terr unit when nobody was complaining about it? Otherwise, interesting thoughts bro. You're right, I didn't know that medivac boosts was going to come. But it's not like that changed how the medivac was. In fact, the boost just promoted it's longevity, which people already were doing with picking up failed drops and dropping later. Considering you're suggesting a vast change that removes units and placing a variation of it on another, do you really think that's something that is within the realm of possibility? Come on now. And people were complaining for ages about Terran late game viability compared to the other races, especially during the last legs of WoL. Well yeah I probably should have chosen the word "roles" instead of unit design. But you can definitely trace every brood war unit's role to HoTS. The Swarm Host was about as close to a Lurker as they could get with the SC2 engine. If you can imagine how easy it would be to micro around the BW lurker in the sc2 engine, well yeah it wouldn't fit well at all. Lol. The swarm host has nothing in common with the lurker apart from being able to burrow. The lurker is a mid range splash unit, gasheavy ans on a sidetrack of zerg tech. The swarm host is a "superior range" siege unit, not too expensive and on the maintechtrack. One is used to make an opponents life hard when going on the map, the other to make him come out and play. If you want to compare the lurker to something in sc2, then the closest thing is burowed banelings or widow mines. How about a Colossi that can burrow and shoots straight out? Mmmmmm cloaked, immobile, one beam colossi. wouldnt a burrowed colossus still be halfway out of the ground? And attackable by burrowed roaches? God, that would look so dumb I kinda want it. This stupid half burrowed egg that is somehow untargetable without detection and shoots lines of fiery death. But seriously, most of the BW units would be totally messed up in the SC2 engine. Lurkers would be with if the colossi and widow mine had a horrible baby that ruined lives. Lets not even talk about storms that filled up an 8th of the screen. And no one talks about how screens were small in those days. If you think storms are bad just think about this. Reavers in SC2... With the clumping nature you could kill 50supply with 1hit With smart targeting! Reaver drops woudl be amazing. You could drop one, it fires into the center of the clump and then you pick it up without ever having to stop controlling the warp prism. Hell, Grubby could control 3 at a time, shooting 50 supply destroying missiles.
I don't think smart targeting would do a whole lot to the reaver since it has a projectile attack, but still seeing two of those dropped in your base with a then warping in some zealots.... ouch.
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On April 13 2013 02:02 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:On April 13 2013 00:31 Assirra wrote:On April 12 2013 23:11 Plansix wrote:On April 12 2013 23:01 Big J wrote:On April 12 2013 22:53 Plansix wrote:On April 12 2013 22:50 Big J wrote:On April 12 2013 22:40 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 12 2013 22:03 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 21:55 AnomalySC2 wrote:
[quote]
Do not agree. SC2 takes essentially every unit from BW and updates it for the SC2 engine. Also, I know some people might flame me for saying this, but I think HoTS is a harder game, all things considered, than BW. I think it's a different kind of difficulty. BW was not just facing your opponent but the game too, I remember how it made my life a living hell to just attack, so I turtled till carriers came to kill me. I think they take roles from BW but not unit design. Like the Swarm Host. How easy would it have been to pick the Lurker right up, plop it back in and be like here's the new siege unit that doesn't involve more spawning stuff. On April 12 2013 21:57 sage_francis wrote:
[quote]
I wish i had your amazing talent to bash posts because u know what is going to happen in the future.
Did you really expected a speed and free upgrade on one of the main Terr unit when nobody was complaining about it? Otherwise, interesting thoughts bro. You're right, I didn't know that medivac boosts was going to come. But it's not like that changed how the medivac was. In fact, the boost just promoted it's longevity, which people already were doing with picking up failed drops and dropping later. Considering you're suggesting a vast change that removes units and placing a variation of it on another, do you really think that's something that is within the realm of possibility? Come on now. And people were complaining for ages about Terran late game viability compared to the other races, especially during the last legs of WoL. Well yeah I probably should have chosen the word "roles" instead of unit design. But you can definitely trace every brood war unit's role to HoTS. The Swarm Host was about as close to a Lurker as they could get with the SC2 engine. If you can imagine how easy it would be to micro around the BW lurker in the sc2 engine, well yeah it wouldn't fit well at all. Lol. The swarm host has nothing in common with the lurker apart from being able to burrow. The lurker is a mid range splash unit, gasheavy ans on a sidetrack of zerg tech. The swarm host is a "superior range" siege unit, not too expensive and on the maintechtrack. One is used to make an opponents life hard when going on the map, the other to make him come out and play. If you want to compare the lurker to something in sc2, then the closest thing is burowed banelings or widow mines. How about a Colossi that can burrow and shoots straight out? Mmmmmm cloaked, immobile, one beam colossi. wouldnt a burrowed colossus still be halfway out of the ground? And attackable by burrowed roaches? God, that would look so dumb I kinda want it. This stupid half burrowed egg that is somehow untargetable without detection and shoots lines of fiery death. But seriously, most of the BW units would be totally messed up in the SC2 engine. Lurkers would be with if the colossi and widow mine had a horrible baby that ruined lives. Lets not even talk about storms that filled up an 8th of the screen. And no one talks about how screens were small in those days. If you think storms are bad just think about this. Reavers in SC2... With the clumping nature you could kill 50supply with 1hit With smart targeting! Reaver drops woudl be amazing. You could drop one, it fires into the center of the clump and then you pick it up without ever having to stop controlling the warp prism. Hell, Grubby could control 3 at a time, shooting 50 supply destroying missiles. I don't think smart targeting would do a whole lot to the reaver since it has a projectile attack, but still seeing two of those dropped in your base with a then warping in some zealots.... ouch.
why drop them in bases? Terran must play bio vs Protoss. One reaver shot kills a any kind bio unit. Many of them. Just amove like you have never amoved before.
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On April 13 2013 02:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 02:02 Mehukannu wrote:On April 13 2013 00:39 Plansix wrote:On April 13 2013 00:31 Assirra wrote:On April 12 2013 23:11 Plansix wrote:On April 12 2013 23:01 Big J wrote:On April 12 2013 22:53 Plansix wrote:On April 12 2013 22:50 Big J wrote:On April 12 2013 22:40 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 12 2013 22:03 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
I think it's a different kind of difficulty. BW was not just facing your opponent but the game too, I remember how it made my life a living hell to just attack, so I turtled till carriers came to kill me. I think they take roles from BW but not unit design. Like the Swarm Host. How easy would it have been to pick the Lurker right up, plop it back in and be like here's the new siege unit that doesn't involve more spawning stuff.
[quote]
You're right, I didn't know that medivac boosts was going to come. But it's not like that changed how the medivac was. In fact, the boost just promoted it's longevity, which people already were doing with picking up failed drops and dropping later. Considering you're suggesting a vast change that removes units and placing a variation of it on another, do you really think that's something that is within the realm of possibility? Come on now.
And people were complaining for ages about Terran late game viability compared to the other races, especially during the last legs of WoL. Well yeah I probably should have chosen the word "roles" instead of unit design. But you can definitely trace every brood war unit's role to HoTS. The Swarm Host was about as close to a Lurker as they could get with the SC2 engine. If you can imagine how easy it would be to micro around the BW lurker in the sc2 engine, well yeah it wouldn't fit well at all. Lol. The swarm host has nothing in common with the lurker apart from being able to burrow. The lurker is a mid range splash unit, gasheavy ans on a sidetrack of zerg tech. The swarm host is a "superior range" siege unit, not too expensive and on the maintechtrack. One is used to make an opponents life hard when going on the map, the other to make him come out and play. If you want to compare the lurker to something in sc2, then the closest thing is burowed banelings or widow mines. How about a Colossi that can burrow and shoots straight out? Mmmmmm cloaked, immobile, one beam colossi. wouldnt a burrowed colossus still be halfway out of the ground? And attackable by burrowed roaches? God, that would look so dumb I kinda want it. This stupid half burrowed egg that is somehow untargetable without detection and shoots lines of fiery death. But seriously, most of the BW units would be totally messed up in the SC2 engine. Lurkers would be with if the colossi and widow mine had a horrible baby that ruined lives. Lets not even talk about storms that filled up an 8th of the screen. And no one talks about how screens were small in those days. If you think storms are bad just think about this. Reavers in SC2... With the clumping nature you could kill 50supply with 1hit With smart targeting! Reaver drops woudl be amazing. You could drop one, it fires into the center of the clump and then you pick it up without ever having to stop controlling the warp prism. Hell, Grubby could control 3 at a time, shooting 50 supply destroying missiles. I don't think smart targeting would do a whole lot to the reaver since it has a projectile attack, but still seeing two of those dropped in your base with a then warping in some zealots.... ouch. why drop them in bases? Terran must play bio vs Protoss. One reaver shot kills a any kind bio unit. Many of them. Just amove like you have never amoved before.
It is pretty much same where you fight. Might as well destroy economy and the production too while you are at it.
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But... but... Toss should be UP 
On more serious note, those results were kinda expected. Those new and stronger toss all ins are forcing Terran for weaker macro openings (especially oracle cheeses) while Terrans lost all their one base and early two base timings/all-ins due to MSC.
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Protoss have gotten way too good at destroying bio with their huge splash damage in the mid and late game. Terrans should try to experiment with mech. I think building up a raven count is key, just imo.
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I think its pretty clear that protoss has a distinct advantage over terran right now.
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On April 13 2013 05:02 VPVanek wrote:
I think its pretty clear that protoss has a distinct advantage over terran right now.
Maybe if you play "standard". HoTS opened up more options for all the races.
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On April 13 2013 05:04 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:02 VPVanek wrote:
I think its pretty clear that protoss has a distinct advantage over terran right now. Maybe if you play "standard". HoTS opened up more options for all the races.
What to you is "Standard"?
I'm pretty sure the best players in the world having a tough time against them proves enough.
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On April 13 2013 05:04 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Maybe if you play "standard". HoTS opened up more options for all the races.
Standard is standard for a reason. You're deluded if you think mech in its current form can replace bio as a standard. The style is considerably inferior and probably not even viable against Protoss who know how to play against it.
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EPT
