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On April 13 2013 16:38 Big J wrote:
The "imbalance" (it's a mirror, it's not imbalanced. It's just stupid) is caused mostly by the infestor nerf. On top of that, the tissue regeneration makes it even more unforgiving for the opponent.
lol... widow mines are awesome. One of the best units in all of the starcraft universe which create extremly interesting situations. Tempests are OK. They are at least much more interesting as BCs as a Capital Ship (though I don't like Capital ships in Starcraft, but whatever... they are not going to go away)
You are just crying because it is stuff that was not in Broodwar and blindly hating on it.
Removing the tissue regeneration would be a start for fixing Muta-ZvZ-problem.
As to the Widow Mine design I can only say that it is yet again an easy unit to fight for higher level players but a pain in the butt for lower level players who are more likely to forget looking for them and then losing games because of it. Thus the whole design is kinda meh like many of the funky HotS units.
+ Show Spoiler +I am looking at the stuff objectively and you just have to whine about ME pointing stuff out ... because you are one of my "anti-fanboys". The simpler BW unit design was better for all levels of play and the funky "new stuff" is easy to handle for pros, but harder to manage for casuals. Thus the new game is more about "balance" and less about "fun".
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On April 13 2013 17:00 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 16:38 Big J wrote:
The "imbalance" (it's a mirror, it's not imbalanced. It's just stupid) is caused mostly by the infestor nerf. On top of that, the tissue regeneration makes it even more unforgiving for the opponent.
lol... widow mines are awesome. One of the best units in all of the starcraft universe which create extremly interesting situations. Tempests are OK. They are at least much more interesting as BCs as a Capital Ship (though I don't like Capital ships in Starcraft, but whatever... they are not going to go away)
You are just crying because it is stuff that was not in Broodwar and blindly hating on it. Removing the tissue regeneration would be a start for fixing Muta-ZvZ-problem. As to the Widow Mine design I can only say that it is yet again an easy unit to fight for higher level players but a pain in the butt for lower level players who are more likely to forget looking for them and then losing games because of it. Thus the whole design is kinda meh like many of the funky HotS units. + Show Spoiler +I am looking at the stuff objectively and you just have to whine about ME pointing stuff out ... because you are one of my "anti-fanboys". The simpler BW unit design was better for all levels of play and the funky "new stuff" is easy to handle for pros, but harder to manage for casuals. Thus the new game is more about "balance" and less about "fun".
And the mechanics of BW were impossible to manage for casuals. That's why we ended up with 200 people playing BW outside of Korea in 2007, and why we still have 100k players (or more) playing WoL even right before HotS. Look at the TL explosion during SC2 and you'll realize how better it is for casuals, even if it "doesn't make sense" to you.
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On April 13 2013 17:00 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 16:38 Big J wrote:
The "imbalance" (it's a mirror, it's not imbalanced. It's just stupid) is caused mostly by the infestor nerf. On top of that, the tissue regeneration makes it even more unforgiving for the opponent.
lol... widow mines are awesome. One of the best units in all of the starcraft universe which create extremly interesting situations. Tempests are OK. They are at least much more interesting as BCs as a Capital Ship (though I don't like Capital ships in Starcraft, but whatever... they are not going to go away)
You are just crying because it is stuff that was not in Broodwar and blindly hating on it. Removing the tissue regeneration would be a start for fixing Muta-ZvZ-problem. As to the Widow Mine design I can only say that it is yet again an easy unit to fight for higher level players but a pain in the butt for lower level players who are more likely to forget looking for them and then losing games because of it. Thus the whole design is kinda meh like many of the funky HotS units. + Show Spoiler +I am looking at the stuff objectively and you just have to whine about ME pointing stuff out ... because you are one of my "anti-fanboys". The simpler BW unit design was better for all levels of play and the funky "new stuff" is easy to handle for pros, but harder to manage for casuals. Thus the new game is more about "balance" and less about "fun".
Yeah, you don't look for that stuff objectively. It's not harder to manage for casuals. Broodwar had TONS of those things in the game. If anything, Broodwar is completly unplayable at any interesting level by casuals (and therefore never got popular outside of BGH and Fastest Map).
what about reavers in BW? Whoooops, didn't look, all the mineral line is gone.
Storms? Cu in hell army.
What about Carriers? You didn't scout enough? Ups, you're dead now.
What about spider mines? Didn't look for them? All of your army is gone.
Send out my army, let me just queue a few units.... where is my army? Oh, there were some burrowed lurkers. Whooops.
...
Though I agree that removing tissue regeneration might be a good start for improving ZvZ.
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On April 13 2013 17:09 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 17:00 Rabiator wrote:On April 13 2013 16:38 Big J wrote:
The "imbalance" (it's a mirror, it's not imbalanced. It's just stupid) is caused mostly by the infestor nerf. On top of that, the tissue regeneration makes it even more unforgiving for the opponent.
lol... widow mines are awesome. One of the best units in all of the starcraft universe which create extremly interesting situations. Tempests are OK. They are at least much more interesting as BCs as a Capital Ship (though I don't like Capital ships in Starcraft, but whatever... they are not going to go away)
You are just crying because it is stuff that was not in Broodwar and blindly hating on it. Removing the tissue regeneration would be a start for fixing Muta-ZvZ-problem. As to the Widow Mine design I can only say that it is yet again an easy unit to fight for higher level players but a pain in the butt for lower level players who are more likely to forget looking for them and then losing games because of it. Thus the whole design is kinda meh like many of the funky HotS units. + Show Spoiler +I am looking at the stuff objectively and you just have to whine about ME pointing stuff out ... because you are one of my "anti-fanboys". The simpler BW unit design was better for all levels of play and the funky "new stuff" is easy to handle for pros, but harder to manage for casuals. Thus the new game is more about "balance" and less about "fun". And the mechanics of BW were impossible to manage for casuals. That's why we ended up with 200 people playing BW outside of Korea in 2007, and why we still have 100k players (or more) playing WoL even right before HotS. Look at the TL explosion during SC2 and you'll realize how better it is for casuals, even if it "doesn't make sense" to you.
No they were not impossible. That is a myth created by "todays lazy kids" just to stop thinking. If you are a casual you wont have the same economy as a professional and your unit management is going to be worse, but what's the big problem? This is not the same as "impossible to manage" and you could still play a game for fun against your equally terrible buddies.
In SC2 you only need one player to mass an army of Marines or Banelings or do a warp-in right in your base to have one person win. For a casual this is NOT FUN because you can not handle it.
Just stop with the "SC2 is better in every way" propaganda and think about where it is actually worse ... and that is the most important part of the game: UNIT and GAME DESIGN!
On April 13 2013 17:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 17:00 Rabiator wrote:On April 13 2013 16:38 Big J wrote:
The "imbalance" (it's a mirror, it's not imbalanced. It's just stupid) is caused mostly by the infestor nerf. On top of that, the tissue regeneration makes it even more unforgiving for the opponent.
lol... widow mines are awesome. One of the best units in all of the starcraft universe which create extremly interesting situations. Tempests are OK. They are at least much more interesting as BCs as a Capital Ship (though I don't like Capital ships in Starcraft, but whatever... they are not going to go away)
You are just crying because it is stuff that was not in Broodwar and blindly hating on it. Removing the tissue regeneration would be a start for fixing Muta-ZvZ-problem. As to the Widow Mine design I can only say that it is yet again an easy unit to fight for higher level players but a pain in the butt for lower level players who are more likely to forget looking for them and then losing games because of it. Thus the whole design is kinda meh like many of the funky HotS units. + Show Spoiler +I am looking at the stuff objectively and you just have to whine about ME pointing stuff out ... because you are one of my "anti-fanboys". The simpler BW unit design was better for all levels of play and the funky "new stuff" is easy to handle for pros, but harder to manage for casuals. Thus the new game is more about "balance" and less about "fun". Yeah, you don't look for that stuff objectively. It's not harder to manage for casuals. Broodwar had TONS of those things in the game. If anything, Broodwar is completly unplayable at any interesting level by casuals (and therefore never got popular outside of BGH and Fastest Map). what about reavers in BW? Whoooops, didn't look, all the mineral line is gone. Storms? Cu in hell army. What about Carriers? You didn't scout enough? Ups, you're dead now. What about spider mines? Didn't look for them? All of your army is gone. Send out my army, let me just queue a few units.... where is my army? Oh, there were some burrowed lurkers. Whooops. ... Though I agree that removing tissue regeneration might be a good start for improving ZvZ.
Funny you bring up Reavers as your "prime example" of an instawin in BW ... because the shots were totally erratic and COULD FAIL. BW did NOT HAVE super tight and clumped movement, so you couldnt lose your whole army .... and all of your grand examples are shown as being ridiculous on the casual level. Storms are harder to use because you have to use each High Templar separately ...
Even losing a big chunk of your army wasnt that big of a deal at casual level because it was harder to use your units and thus not as easy to simply a-move your one super-condensed-dps-army into the enemy base to win. There were defenses which actually meant something in that game, so it wasnt all over after one big loss.
Just stop it before you make me laugh even more ...
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Ive refrained from talking about this or having a quick QQ but ive noticed what i would consider a league imbalance in the ZvT matchup and yes it involved those widow mines.
The run of the games this happens in is this
same game up to 6 mins, z 2 base getting ready to tech into lair, take 3rd, T mostly hellion harass opener at 5.30 ish.
the imbalance i would say is IF they get in your base and do worker damage, You are behind at that point (please understand its rare they get in my base but a silly mis rally or unit move, inaccurate click sets this off. eg last game i boxed units but caught my blocking ramp queen somehow and she moved letting 4 of them in doh) this i dont mind to an extent but this is where i see the imbalance come in.
the T usually has window mines with this and has planted them in a move attack paths. Not a problem get an over seer, but not after youve taken damage to actually know they are out there and even like the streams i watch you find out widows are in play when u lose 16 lings scouting around the map. In the mean time you are already down on econ so the units Vs drones becomes an issue for the zerg AND the thought of expanding (3rd already been denied) as hes on maybe 3 cc and muling at this point.
the problem comes here. He can A move units to ur third further denying or just doing the eco damage, have mines coming in and planted all over the place and you simply have no econ to do anything. Im a plat player and dont feel im that bad at the game for my league but i simply cant or dont have the apm (although the blizz apm says i have an average of 304) to deal with it as well as no economy to build the units needed to do deal with hellions and marines and mines streaming in now. i have to move over seers ahead of every move, be prepared to lose a unit, while i kill mines but then hes backed up with a sizeable army, mine still not dead and sieging the area killing lings or clumped units . . .and the hellions are now in my 3rd wasting the try so hard drone count down again, now hes going to 3rd i dont have anything.
Its almost like i have to leave as soon as this scenario starts. I know i shouldnt let the hellions in my base, but just say they DO get in by mistake, you cant blame me stephano, idra, vibe and catz have this happen to them all the time over the last week and ive tried to see how they damage limitate and it never ends well . . .so prompting me to thinking its a loss right there and then unless the opp purely drops the ball, but you cant really count on that. your opp is as good as you!
the imbalance is the fact the Z has to litterally multitask like cxrazy to detect and get rid of mines and then worry about army engage while the t can a move, shift click and thats just about it!
Any suggestions to try and get back in the game after this?
thanks for listening. God a little moan now and again makes you feel good ^^
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On April 13 2013 06:09 Sphyxx wrote:
I know a lot of terrans are struggling with protoss early game, myself included. One of my ideas was having the missile turret have a similar buff to the spore crawler - no engi bay required for the turret. Turrets help a lot with DTs, oracles and to some extent other allins, but getting an engibay that early really eats into the minerals required to set up the infrastructure and to get vital marines.
I'm only plat myself though - what does everyone think of this idea? I can't see it affecting much else, would make banshee openers harder in TvT as well as widow mine drops a bit less effective vs T.
To play devils advocate, since widow mines hit roughly same time as DTs, can Protosses please be able to drop cannons without a forge?
Going Gate > Core > Twilight > Shrine is more than enough time to either save up a scan if you sense something is up, or build a turret at each Orbital Command.
Being able to build Turrets without an Engineering Bay would completely render DT or Oracle play vs Terran useless. There would be nothing at all a Terran would be worried about for the first 10 minutes of a game, just 1 racks expand.
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@Rabiator
I can get my GF to play SC2 after around 10 games of practice, basic SCV production, marine, supply and a move. She had fun playing that.
I really doubt she could do as well in BW with equal 10 games practise when she needs to produce scvs, tell them to mine, produce marine from each production AND move 12 units at a time.
You know what she said? "I have to build and tell them to mine and then I can't group my barracks????? why my units are stuck there???????"
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On April 13 2013 20:00 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 17:09 aksfjh wrote:On April 13 2013 17:00 Rabiator wrote:On April 13 2013 16:38 Big J wrote:
The "imbalance" (it's a mirror, it's not imbalanced. It's just stupid) is caused mostly by the infestor nerf. On top of that, the tissue regeneration makes it even more unforgiving for the opponent.
lol... widow mines are awesome. One of the best units in all of the starcraft universe which create extremly interesting situations. Tempests are OK. They are at least much more interesting as BCs as a Capital Ship (though I don't like Capital ships in Starcraft, but whatever... they are not going to go away)
You are just crying because it is stuff that was not in Broodwar and blindly hating on it. Removing the tissue regeneration would be a start for fixing Muta-ZvZ-problem. As to the Widow Mine design I can only say that it is yet again an easy unit to fight for higher level players but a pain in the butt for lower level players who are more likely to forget looking for them and then losing games because of it. Thus the whole design is kinda meh like many of the funky HotS units. + Show Spoiler +I am looking at the stuff objectively and you just have to whine about ME pointing stuff out ... because you are one of my "anti-fanboys". The simpler BW unit design was better for all levels of play and the funky "new stuff" is easy to handle for pros, but harder to manage for casuals. Thus the new game is more about "balance" and less about "fun". And the mechanics of BW were impossible to manage for casuals. That's why we ended up with 200 people playing BW outside of Korea in 2007, and why we still have 100k players (or more) playing WoL even right before HotS. Look at the TL explosion during SC2 and you'll realize how better it is for casuals, even if it "doesn't make sense" to you. No they were not impossible. That is a myth created by "todays lazy kids" just to stop thinking. If you are a casual you wont have the same economy as a professional and your unit management is going to be worse, but what's the big problem? This is not the same as "impossible to manage" and you could still play a game for fun against your equally terrible buddies. In SC2 you only need one player to mass an army of Marines or Banelings or do a warp-in right in your base to have one person win. For a casual this is NOT FUN because you can not handle it. Just stop with the "SC2 is better in every way" propaganda and think about where it is actually worse ... and that is the most important part of the game: UNIT and GAME DESIGN! Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 17:12 Big J wrote:On April 13 2013 17:00 Rabiator wrote:On April 13 2013 16:38 Big J wrote:
The "imbalance" (it's a mirror, it's not imbalanced. It's just stupid) is caused mostly by the infestor nerf. On top of that, the tissue regeneration makes it even more unforgiving for the opponent.
lol... widow mines are awesome. One of the best units in all of the starcraft universe which create extremly interesting situations. Tempests are OK. They are at least much more interesting as BCs as a Capital Ship (though I don't like Capital ships in Starcraft, but whatever... they are not going to go away)
You are just crying because it is stuff that was not in Broodwar and blindly hating on it. Removing the tissue regeneration would be a start for fixing Muta-ZvZ-problem. As to the Widow Mine design I can only say that it is yet again an easy unit to fight for higher level players but a pain in the butt for lower level players who are more likely to forget looking for them and then losing games because of it. Thus the whole design is kinda meh like many of the funky HotS units. + Show Spoiler +I am looking at the stuff objectively and you just have to whine about ME pointing stuff out ... because you are one of my "anti-fanboys". The simpler BW unit design was better for all levels of play and the funky "new stuff" is easy to handle for pros, but harder to manage for casuals. Thus the new game is more about "balance" and less about "fun". Yeah, you don't look for that stuff objectively. It's not harder to manage for casuals. Broodwar had TONS of those things in the game. If anything, Broodwar is completly unplayable at any interesting level by casuals (and therefore never got popular outside of BGH and Fastest Map). what about reavers in BW? Whoooops, didn't look, all the mineral line is gone. Storms? Cu in hell army. What about Carriers? You didn't scout enough? Ups, you're dead now. What about spider mines? Didn't look for them? All of your army is gone. Send out my army, let me just queue a few units.... where is my army? Oh, there were some burrowed lurkers. Whooops. ... Though I agree that removing tissue regeneration might be a good start for improving ZvZ. Funny you bring up Reavers as your "prime example" of an instawin in BW ... because the shots were totally erratic and COULD FAIL. BW did NOT HAVE super tight and clumped movement, so you couldnt lose your whole army .... and all of your grand examples are shown as being ridiculous on the casual level. Storms are harder to use because you have to use each High Templar separately ... Even losing a big chunk of your army wasnt that big of a deal at casual level because it was harder to use your units and thus not as easy to simply a-move your one super-condensed-dps-army into the enemy base to win. There were defenses which actually meant something in that game, so it wasnt all over after one big loss. Just stop it before you make me laugh even more ...
Or how hard it is to lay mines. You can't just click vultures and smart cast the mines which is what BigJ probably thinks you can do. BigJ just doesn't understand that most BW units were really fundamental units and thats what the game was revolved around. Everything else that was imba (e.g storms) on paper was balanced because of the really hard mechanics and the pathing.
Anyway.. I really think they need to do something to the tank so that one can use widow mines for more mobility vs tanks for more firepower in straightup fights. Its sad to see the tank takeover the "hydralisk" status.
And yes, tanks were one of the reasons why it was beautiful watching zergs flank. Right now, Im not seeing any of that thanks to the mines.
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1.) Are Terran players so spoiled that they think 'mech' should be buffed so they can go pure 'mech' ? What, because it requires factories instead of barracks? Welcome to brood war you effing sissies, where you had to mix your army just like the rest of us.
2.) Nerfing muta regen isn't the answer. Buffing hydra and reducing the massive gutting of infestors is.
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On April 14 2013 00:13 Merkmerk wrote:
1.) Are Terran players so spoiled that they think 'mech' should be buffed so they can go pure 'mech' ? What, because it requires factories instead of barracks? Welcome to brood war you effing sissies, where you had to mix your army just like the rest of us.
or just mass 10-15 thors while doing incredible run by and drop damage with insane turtle capability so you cant trade
ye . . seems fair
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On April 13 2013 21:03 ETisME wrote:
@Rabiator
I can get my GF to play SC2 after around 10 games of practice, basic SCV production, marine, supply and a move. She had fun playing that.
I really doubt she could do as well in BW with equal 10 games practise when she needs to produce scvs, tell them to mine, produce marine from each production AND move 12 units at a time.
You know what she said? "I have to build and tell them to mine and then I can't group my barracks????? why my units are stuck there???????"
I think Rabiator's point is that in Brood War the game scaled down to your level of skill, whereas in Starcraft 2 everyone is able to control large armies and whatnot. This means that mechanics are less important compared to strategy, and as a result you will 'randomly' lose so many games to timing attacks and so on. In Brood War you could observe how your lacking mechanical skills affected the outcome of the game, which is a known weakness, whereas in Starcraft 2 as a new player you are by necessity ignorant of all the subtler points of strategy, which is an unknown weakness, so to say.
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On April 14 2013 02:37 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 21:03 ETisME wrote:
@Rabiator
I can get my GF to play SC2 after around 10 games of practice, basic SCV production, marine, supply and a move. She had fun playing that.
I really doubt she could do as well in BW with equal 10 games practise when she needs to produce scvs, tell them to mine, produce marine from each production AND move 12 units at a time.
You know what she said? "I have to build and tell them to mine and then I can't group my barracks????? why my units are stuck there???????" I think Rabiator's point is that in Brood War the game scaled down to your level of skill, whereas in Starcraft 2 everyone is able to control large armies and whatnot. This means that mechanics are less important compared to strategy, and as a result you will 'randomly' lose so many games to timing attacks and so on. In Brood War you could observe how your lacking mechanical skills affected the outcome of the game, which is a known weakness, whereas in Starcraft 2 as a new player you are by necessity ignorant of all the subtler points of strategy, which is an unknown weakness, so to say.
There's a huge difference in mechanics in both games as you've pointed out correctly. Strategy often becomes far less effective if not paired with good mechanics. As a former ICCUP player, i can tell you, any decent C mechanics will wreck a hard countered strategy just simply because you have more units than your opponent with similar 'rank'. In Sc2, this mechanic disparity is reduced substantially, less focus on individually clicking and rerallying EACH production structure frees a significant portion of APM for other uses like unit control and strategy execution. Harass becomes more potent, because production instantly reshift reinforcement points without looking away from combat, and workers do not need to be baby sat for the next 15 mins of the game.
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Just to complete the balance whine issue thread i thought it would be nice to take some statistics of the pro's after the hots launch. The below data and chart is from aligulac.com, as i feel this is the best data start a discussion over balance issues. Ofcourse it is a bit early just when hots finished, but i feel we have some data now that could be analyzed.
![[image loading]](http://s9.postimg.org/udt2olp33/chart.jpg)
Conclusions so far
Data at this moment says :
TvP : 57% in favor of terran
TvZ : 55% in favor of terran
PvZ : 51% in favor of zerg
My interpretation of the pro stats
It seems like terran is winning more after the hotspatch. I think although mines are strong, they are not why terran is winning more then before hots came out.
Suggestions
My best bet is altering the speedvac, because the speedvac is frequently used in both matchups. Therefore i feel everybody should stop whining about mines and whine more about the speedvacs. I could see a change in the medivac/speedvac that when speedvac is enabled, there energy drains out (or something similar like that). In this way terrans also gets disadvantages when using the speedboost and has to make a choice. This change could help in trying to get the winning percentages more balanced at prolevel.
Note
To infinity and whine on!
p.s. me terran
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On April 14 2013 00:13 Merkmerk wrote:
1.) Are Terran players so spoiled that they think 'mech' should be buffed so they can go pure 'mech' ? What, because it requires factories instead of barracks? Welcome to brood war you effing sissies, where you had to mix your army just like the rest of us.
2.) Nerfing muta regen isn't the answer. Buffing hydra and reducing the massive gutting of infestors is.
I don't think you've ever played brood war have you? TvP was literally 100% mech in brood war as the standard strategy.
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On April 13 2013 20:23 Cocoabean wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 06:09 Sphyxx wrote:
I know a lot of terrans are struggling with protoss early game, myself included. One of my ideas was having the missile turret have a similar buff to the spore crawler - no engi bay required for the turret. Turrets help a lot with DTs, oracles and to some extent other allins, but getting an engibay that early really eats into the minerals required to set up the infrastructure and to get vital marines.
I'm only plat myself though - what does everyone think of this idea? I can't see it affecting much else, would make banshee openers harder in TvT as well as widow mine drops a bit less effective vs T.
To play devils advocate, since widow mines hit roughly same time as DTs, can Protosses please be able to drop cannons without a forge? Going Gate > Core > Twilight > Shrine is more than enough time to either save up a scan if you sense something is up, or build a turret at each Orbital Command. Being able to build Turrets without an Engineering Bay would completely render DT or Oracle play vs Terran useless. There would be nothing at all a Terran would be worried about for the first 10 minutes of a game, just 1 racks expand.
Cannons are not comparable to turrets lol...
Come on man you need to try harder than that to make a point, cannon rush would be 100% unstoppable with that change.
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You don't provide enough information from that balance report.
Anyway, in APRIL, protoss is winning the most in tournaments and Korean ladder.
Also, if you look at the race win rates for the top Korean gm terrans, the worst match up for all of them (except innovation) is TvZ.
Terran is weakest atm in KOREA.
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On April 14 2013 03:28 govie wrote:Just to complete the balance whine issue thread i thought it would be nice to take some statistics of the pro's after the hots launch. The below data and chart is from aligulac.com, as i feel this is the best data start a discussion over balance issues. Ofcourse it is a bit early just when hots finished, but i feel we have some data now that could be analyzed. Conclusions so farData at this moment says : TvP : 57% in favor of terran TvZ : 55% in favor of terran PvZ : 51% in favor of zerg My interpretation of the pro statsIt seems like terran is winning more after the hotspatch. I think although mines are strong, they are not why terran is winning more then before hots came out. SuggestionsMy best bet is altering the speedvac, because the speedvac is frequently used in both matchups. Therefore i feel everybody should stop whining about mines and whine more about the speedvacs. I could see a change in the medivac/speedvac that when speedvac is enabled, there energy drains out (or something similar like that). In this way terrans also gets disadvantages when using the speedboost and has to make a choice. This change could help in trying to get the winning percentages more balanced at prolevel. NoteTo infinity and whine on! p.s. me terran
HAY GAIS! LUK AT THIS GRAF! ITS CLEAR TERAN OP! HERP DERP!
That's literally 1-2 weeks of data after the release of a new expansion at the tail end and you're demanding Terran nerfs. Never mind the 6 months before where Terran was getting stomped in TvZ and they were told the problem was that they weren't Korean. Give it a couple of months of pro play before you start handing out decisive verdicts on balance changes.
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On April 14 2013 03:29 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 00:13 Merkmerk wrote:
1.) Are Terran players so spoiled that they think 'mech' should be buffed so they can go pure 'mech' ? What, because it requires factories instead of barracks? Welcome to brood war you effing sissies, where you had to mix your army just like the rest of us.
2.) Nerfing muta regen isn't the answer. Buffing hydra and reducing the massive gutting of infestors is. I don't think you've ever played brood war have you? TvP was literally 100% mech in brood war as the standard strategy.
Not to mention there was a time TvZ mech was dominating zerg with a 63% win ratio across all players for a good 3 month period...
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On April 14 2013 02:56 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 02:37 Grumbels wrote:On April 13 2013 21:03 ETisME wrote:
@Rabiator
I can get my GF to play SC2 after around 10 games of practice, basic SCV production, marine, supply and a move. She had fun playing that.
I really doubt she could do as well in BW with equal 10 games practise when she needs to produce scvs, tell them to mine, produce marine from each production AND move 12 units at a time.
You know what she said? "I have to build and tell them to mine and then I can't group my barracks????? why my units are stuck there???????" I think Rabiator's point is that in Brood War the game scaled down to your level of skill, whereas in Starcraft 2 everyone is able to control large armies and whatnot. This means that mechanics are less important compared to strategy, and as a result you will 'randomly' lose so many games to timing attacks and so on. In Brood War you could observe how your lacking mechanical skills affected the outcome of the game, which is a known weakness, whereas in Starcraft 2 as a new player you are by necessity ignorant of all the subtler points of strategy, which is an unknown weakness, so to say. There's a huge difference in mechanics in both games as you've pointed out correctly. Strategy often becomes far less effective if not paired with good mechanics. As a former ICCUP player, i can tell you, any decent C mechanics will wreck a hard countered strategy just simply because you have more units than your opponent with similar 'rank'. In Sc2, this mechanic disparity is reduced substantially, less focus on individually clicking and rerallying EACH production structure frees a significant portion of APM for other uses like unit control and strategy execution. Harass becomes more potent, because production instantly reshift reinforcement points without looking away from combat, and workers do not need to be baby sat for the next 15 mins of the game.
Hmm it's true that macro was harder in BW (not even that much harder imo) but I think SC2 has far harder micro and multitasking. Alot of this is due to the game speed being faster than BW.
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EPT
