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On April 14 2013 03:28 govie wrote:Just to complete the balance whine issue thread i thought it would be nice to take some statistics of the pro's after the hots launch. The below data and chart is from aligulac.com, as i feel this is the best data start a discussion over balance issues. Ofcourse it is a bit early just when hots finished, but i feel we have some data now that could be analyzed. ![[image loading]](http://s9.postimg.org/udt2olp33/chart.jpg) Conclusions so farData at this moment says : TvP : 57% in favor of terran TvZ : 55% in favor of terran PvZ : 51% in favor of zerg My interpretation of the pro statsIt seems like terran is winning more after the hotspatch. I think although mines are strong, they are not why terran is winning more then before hots came out. SuggestionsMy best bet is altering the speedvac, because the speedvac is frequently used in both matchups. Therefore i feel everybody should stop whining about mines and whine more about the speedvacs. I could see a change in the medivac/speedvac that when speedvac is enabled, there energy drains out (or something similar like that). In this way terrans also gets disadvantages when using the speedboost and has to make a choice. This change could help in trying to get the winning percentages more balanced at prolevel. NoteTo infinity and whine on! p.s. me terran
Hi!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E&usp=sharing
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zFFN0R3.png)
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On April 14 2013 03:53 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 03:28 govie wrote:Just to complete the balance whine issue thread i thought it would be nice to take some statistics of the pro's after the hots launch. The below data and chart is from aligulac.com, as i feel this is the best data start a discussion over balance issues. Ofcourse it is a bit early just when hots finished, but i feel we have some data now that could be analyzed. Conclusions so farData at this moment says : TvP : 57% in favor of terran TvZ : 55% in favor of terran PvZ : 51% in favor of zerg My interpretation of the pro statsIt seems like terran is winning more after the hotspatch. I think although mines are strong, they are not why terran is winning more then before hots came out. SuggestionsMy best bet is altering the speedvac, because the speedvac is frequently used in both matchups. Therefore i feel everybody should stop whining about mines and whine more about the speedvacs. I could see a change in the medivac/speedvac that when speedvac is enabled, there energy drains out (or something similar like that). In this way terrans also gets disadvantages when using the speedboost and has to make a choice. This change could help in trying to get the winning percentages more balanced at prolevel. NoteTo infinity and whine on! p.s. me terran HAY GAIS! LUK AT THIS GRAF! ITS CLEAR TERAN OP! HERP DERP! That's literally 1-2 weeks of data after the release of a new expansion at the tail end and you're demanding Terran nerfs. Never mind the 6 months before where Terran was getting stomped in TvZ and they were told the problem was that they weren't Korean. Give it a couple of months of pro play before you start handing out decisive verdicts on balance changes.
U made me smile, herp derp I said it was early! but whining with some data is better than whining without any (as most peeps here do)......
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On April 14 2013 02:37 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 21:03 ETisME wrote:
@Rabiator
I can get my GF to play SC2 after around 10 games of practice, basic SCV production, marine, supply and a move. She had fun playing that.
I really doubt she could do as well in BW with equal 10 games practise when she needs to produce scvs, tell them to mine, produce marine from each production AND move 12 units at a time.
You know what she said? "I have to build and tell them to mine and then I can't group my barracks????? why my units are stuck there???????" I think Rabiator's point is that in Brood War the game scaled down to your level of skill, whereas in Starcraft 2 everyone is able to control large armies and whatnot. This means that mechanics are less important compared to strategy, and as a result you will 'randomly' lose so many games to timing attacks and so on. In Brood War you could observe how your lacking mechanical skills affected the outcome of the game, which is a known weakness, whereas in Starcraft 2 as a new player you are by necessity ignorant of all the subtler points of strategy, which is an unknown weakness, so to say.
Nope. He has said quite the opposite multiple times. That in his opinion SC2 is lacking strategy and all cones down to mechanics.
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On April 14 2013 04:26 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 03:28 govie wrote:Just to complete the balance whine issue thread i thought it would be nice to take some statistics of the pro's after the hots launch. The below data and chart is from aligulac.com, as i feel this is the best data start a discussion over balance issues. Ofcourse it is a bit early just when hots finished, but i feel we have some data now that could be analyzed. Conclusions so farData at this moment says : TvP : 57% in favor of terran TvZ : 55% in favor of terran PvZ : 51% in favor of zerg My interpretation of the pro statsIt seems like terran is winning more after the hotspatch. I think although mines are strong, they are not why terran is winning more then before hots came out. SuggestionsMy best bet is altering the speedvac, because the speedvac is frequently used in both matchups. Therefore i feel everybody should stop whining about mines and whine more about the speedvacs. I could see a change in the medivac/speedvac that when speedvac is enabled, there energy drains out (or something similar like that). In this way terrans also gets disadvantages when using the speedboost and has to make a choice. This change could help in trying to get the winning percentages more balanced at prolevel. NoteTo infinity and whine on! p.s. me terran Hi! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E&usp=sharing
Nice indeed. Looks good. Ofcourse the question is do u take zotac cup or EPS etcetc in the summary or not. As even I, gold-terran can join zotac i thought. But statistics are looking sweet. It's allways the question which data u use for some analysis
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On April 14 2013 03:29 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 00:13 Merkmerk wrote:
1.) Are Terran players so spoiled that they think 'mech' should be buffed so they can go pure 'mech' ? What, because it requires factories instead of barracks? Welcome to brood war you effing sissies, where you had to mix your army just like the rest of us.
2.) Nerfing muta regen isn't the answer. Buffing hydra and reducing the massive gutting of infestors is. I don't think you've ever played brood war have you? TvP was literally 100% mech in brood war as the standard strategy.
This was only because cannons were buffed from explosive damage type to normal damage type to deal with Mutas in vanilla SC.
Before that Marine/Firebat was really good until Reavers came out. Yeah I played BW.
On April 14 2013 03:29 aksfjh wrote:HAY GAIS! LUK AT THIS GRAF! ITS CLEAR TERAN OP! HERP DERP!
I think it's cute that you think you can handwaive statistics away with some derisive all caps remark
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On April 14 2013 07:27 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 03:29 avilo wrote:On April 14 2013 00:13 Merkmerk wrote:
1.) Are Terran players so spoiled that they think 'mech' should be buffed so they can go pure 'mech' ? What, because it requires factories instead of barracks? Welcome to brood war you effing sissies, where you had to mix your army just like the rest of us.
2.) Nerfing muta regen isn't the answer. Buffing hydra and reducing the massive gutting of infestors is. I don't think you've ever played brood war have you? TvP was literally 100% mech in brood war as the standard strategy. This was only because cannons were buffed from explosive damage type to normal damage type to deal with Mutas in vanilla SC. Before that Marine/Firebat was really good until Reavers came out. Yeah I played BW. Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 03:29 aksfjh wrote:HAY GAIS! LUK AT THIS GRAF! ITS CLEAR TERAN OP! HERP DERP!
I think it's cute that you think you can handwaive statistics away with some derisive all caps remark
I dismissed the statistics in the next statement, talking about how it's only 1-2 weeks of games of a newly released expansion.
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On April 14 2013 08:09 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 07:27 Merkmerk wrote:On April 14 2013 03:29 avilo wrote:On April 14 2013 00:13 Merkmerk wrote:
1.) Are Terran players so spoiled that they think 'mech' should be buffed so they can go pure 'mech' ? What, because it requires factories instead of barracks? Welcome to brood war you effing sissies, where you had to mix your army just like the rest of us.
2.) Nerfing muta regen isn't the answer. Buffing hydra and reducing the massive gutting of infestors is. I don't think you've ever played brood war have you? TvP was literally 100% mech in brood war as the standard strategy. This was only because cannons were buffed from explosive damage type to normal damage type to deal with Mutas in vanilla SC. Before that Marine/Firebat was really good until Reavers came out. Yeah I played BW. On April 14 2013 03:29 aksfjh wrote:HAY GAIS! LUK AT THIS GRAF! ITS CLEAR TERAN OP! HERP DERP!
I think it's cute that you think you can handwaive statistics away with some derisive all caps remark I dismissed the statistics in the next statement, talking about how it's only 1-2 weeks of games of a newly released expansion.
HERP DERP! haha
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Haha, these so called terran IMBA stats are so cherry picked. Then explain me why GSL code S is racially balanced. And this --> http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_1_Korea_GSL/Qualifier More zergs than protosses and more tosses than terrans.
It is only logical that when you have a tournament with mostly top tier korean terrans fighting some mediocre foreign zergs the stats won't tell you the truth. That tournament was also won by a zerg player. And zergs in code S are doing fine.
This thread should be renamed :designated balance whine.
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The saddest thing about balance is how people just abuse the idea of statistics. Even Gretorp is guilty of it.
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LOL - "these statistics are just cherry picked and being abused to show bias" - Terran players in this thread.
Come on guys. Stephano is complaining about TvZ. The winrates at masters and grandmasters TvZ is all their best matchup.
You're just going to have to accept that TvZ is imbalanced, and that widow mines are completely broken. I know that's difficult because you want to justify to yourself that all those wins were purely your skill, but that's how it is.
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On April 14 2013 08:36 PanzerElite wrote:Haha, these so called terran IMBA stats are so cherry picked. Then explain me why GSL code S is racially balanced. And this --> http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_1_Korea_GSL/Qualifier More zergs than protosses and more tosses than terrans. It is only logical that when you have a tournament with mostly top tier korean terrans fighting some mediocre foreign zergs the stats won't tell you the truth. That tournament was also won by a zerg player. And zergs in code S are doing fine. This thread should be renamed :designated balance whine.
There are some issues with taking racial ratios right now. Mainly, WoL ended on a very poor note for Terrans, which would likely influence their numbers coming into HotS. Their population was dwindling, so any bounceback in race switching and newcomers picking Terran are likely to lag many months into the future. We aren't likely to see a "patch-terran" phenomenon either due to the concentration of skilled Terrans in Korea and huge deficit worldwide. So, even if Terran does become OP (even blatantly so), their ratio may still be stifled in many tournaments.
Just like with that graph though, there's not enough data/time right now to draw any valid conclusions. We should probably instead focus our collective discussion on possible buffs and nerfs should any scenario come up, or possible changes that would only improve mirror matches (like a way to nerf mutas in ZvZ only).
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On April 14 2013 09:48 Merkmerk wrote:
LOL - "these statistics are just cherry picked and being abused to show bias" - Terran players in this thread.
Come on guys. Stephano is complaining about TvZ. The winrates at masters and grandmasters TvZ is all their best matchup.
You're just going to have to accept that TvZ is imbalanced, and that widow mines are completely broken. I know that's difficult because you want to justify to yourself that all those wins were purely your skill, but that's how it is.
Why should I care what Stephano says? I am willing to bet any zerg that made code A qualifier is just as good as stephano
Korean seems to have no problem advancing in tourneys despite this "widow mine is broken lol". In fact, 12 zerg advanced compare to 7 terran. You're going to have to accept the fact that you're just bad and your attitude is whats holding you back.
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On April 14 2013 08:48 Usernameffs wrote:
tvz and pvt looks bad.
The data people are posting is already outdated. Protoss is performing the best in tournaments. TvZ is going bad for terrans; just look at all the korean gm terrans. Their worst match up is TvZ, except for Innovation who is imba.
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On April 12 2013 04:39 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 04:34 plogamer wrote:On April 11 2013 15:09 Big J wrote:On April 11 2013 10:16 plogamer wrote:On April 11 2013 00:04 Protosnake wrote:On April 10 2013 23:53 Rabiator wrote:On April 10 2013 16:33 Big J wrote:On April 10 2013 16:14 Rabiator wrote:On April 10 2013 16:06 DARKHYDRA wrote:On April 10 2013 15:24 plogamer wrote:
[quote]
My God, we have a genius here. Single handedly debunked all false heresy that Terran is the harder race to play.
Or maybe...
Terrans are punished more severely when they fail to micro properly. Everypony, including the pro-players, make micro mistakes from time to time. When the Terran player makes a micro mistake, it is a much bigger deal than if Zergs or Protoss players make a mistake.
Zergs have immense mobility and map-control. They are less likely to get unaware and make micro mistakes. They can pull back immediately without having to commit.
Protoss units are big, bulky, except zealots - which are extremely tanky. So the damage of mistake in micro'ing against aoe is automatically reduced by default. With mothership core, protoss can also pull back immedialy without having to commit.
Terrans have drops that force out mistakes. But for the main army (unless they're doom-dropped via medivac) there is no real way of quickly retreating in a bad engagement. Is your main army engaged? Then here is your mobility - Seige tanks, immobile. Widow mines, immobile.
TLDR: Generally speaking, Terran mistakes with micro are less forgiving than Zerg or Protoss mistakes.
And with this piece of excellent terran bias I rest my case. ggwp. It is only "stupid bias" if you prove that he is wrong. Since you dont bother disputing his claims your post is the biased one. The burden of proof is not on him, but on the guy who makes the claims. Kinda obvious IMO ... - sieging and unsieging tanks give Terrans a HUGE window of vulnerability - clicking STIM at the wrong time can screw you a few seconds later - mass bio is powerful, but both other races have a crowd control ability to "manage the battlefield", but Terrans dont have that ... which is a clear disadvantage - Siege Tanks deal friendly fire ... are there any Protoss or Zerg units which do the same (apart from Psi Storm, which is a controlled spell and not an automatic unit reaction)? The gist of it is that only Terran units have disadvantages like an hp cost for an ability or a long "immobile and unable to shoot" time. This means that there are many more ways to screw up as a Terran and the Baneling is a powerful anti-Marine unit where you HAVE TO MICRO your units perfectly or lose a big chunk of your army more or less instantly. tl;dr Terrans live more dangerous lives than either Zerg or Protoss ... You're just pointing out how terran get punished for their mistakes, not why it is more punishing than others races, I could also point stuff like the fact one widow mine can blow up 40 banelings or that swarm host are vulnerable while unburrowed, doesnt make my race live more dangerously than any other I've never seen 40 banes made in one go (except when zerg is way ahead or is otherwise making a mistake), so let's leave the exaggerations to minimum. Let's be generous and say 20 banes caught some bad hits in the middle of the map. You can run mutas and lings back and reform your army. Same with mutas, yes its painful to lose mutas, but atleast you don't have to lose the rest of the army if your mutas get slaughtered by thors or whatever. When marines get caught clumped, there is no way to run the tanks back. Or if the tanks get sniped (caught unseiged, or not properly guarded against mutas), the lings will surround the marines and then banes will connect. With a similar micro mistakes, Terran loses pretty much the whole army, and Zergs retreat with 2/3 of their army and live to fight another day. Pick up with medivacs, retreat. Happens all the time. What?!?! Pick up and leave vs muta/ling/bling? Mutas will shoot down the medivacs. Lings will be waiting below for you to feed them units one by one. Please don't just outright lie to us like that. It might happen sometimes if the muta count is low enough, but you never see it happen "all the time". afterburner gets you pretty far away, mutas don't have the dps to shoot down everything, ling/blings can't move around forever... just watch the games. Like todays games. And then tell me that fantasy and teaja don't pick up to retreat. ALL THE TIME.
You misunderstand. After trading well, using medivacs to retreat is viable. But if you don't take things out of context, you'll remember that this whole issue is about retreat in the event of a mis-micro. When you lost a chunk of your army and the enemy is still rather intact, you can't get very far. This is especially true for larger maps.
Mutalisks are faster in HotS. Medivac boost won't be enough to make it all the way back to your base if your push is deeper into enemy territory.
edit:
especially when you consider that tanks have to unseige before being loaded up. it's simply not possible to do so when the enemy gets a good engagement and won't just stand by and watch your tanks unseige and load up.
I'm talking of impromtu retreats here, I reiterate.
And mutas not having enough dps to take down medivacs is bullocks. Yeah they don't just melt medicavs but they were used to shut down drops in WoL and still used in HotS because drop play is more prevalent with the buff to medivacs.
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On April 14 2013 10:00 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 09:48 Merkmerk wrote:
LOL - "these statistics are just cherry picked and being abused to show bias" - Terran players in this thread.
Come on guys. Stephano is complaining about TvZ. The winrates at masters and grandmasters TvZ is all their best matchup.
You're just going to have to accept that TvZ is imbalanced, and that widow mines are completely broken. I know that's difficult because you want to justify to yourself that all those wins were purely your skill, but that's how it is. Why should I care what Stephano says? I am willing to bet any zerg that made code A qualifier is just as good as stephano Korean seems to have no problem advancing in tourneys despite this "widow mine is broken lol". In fact, 12 zerg advanced compare to 7 terran. You're going to have to accept the fact that you're just bad and your attitude is whats holding you back.
Fruitdealer won a major tourney when WOL came out, too.
The stats don't lie, sorry.
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On April 14 2013 10:00 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 09:48 Merkmerk wrote:
LOL - "these statistics are just cherry picked and being abused to show bias" - Terran players in this thread.
Come on guys. Stephano is complaining about TvZ. The winrates at masters and grandmasters TvZ is all their best matchup.
You're just going to have to accept that TvZ is imbalanced, and that widow mines are completely broken. I know that's difficult because you want to justify to yourself that all those wins were purely your skill, but that's how it is. Why should I care what Stephano says? I am willing to bet any zerg that made code A qualifier is just as good as stephano Korean seems to have no problem advancing in tourneys despite this "widow mine is broken lol". In fact, 12 zerg advanced compare to 7 terran. You're going to have to accept the fact that you're just bad and your attitude is whats holding you back.
Every single one of his 10 total posts (first one from 2010) are balance complaints in favor of Zerg and how this and that about Terran and Protoss are "clearly imba".
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On April 14 2013 10:54 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 10:00 iky43210 wrote:On April 14 2013 09:48 Merkmerk wrote:
LOL - "these statistics are just cherry picked and being abused to show bias" - Terran players in this thread.
Come on guys. Stephano is complaining about TvZ. The winrates at masters and grandmasters TvZ is all their best matchup.
You're just going to have to accept that TvZ is imbalanced, and that widow mines are completely broken. I know that's difficult because you want to justify to yourself that all those wins were purely your skill, but that's how it is. Why should I care what Stephano says? I am willing to bet any zerg that made code A qualifier is just as good as stephano Korean seems to have no problem advancing in tourneys despite this "widow mine is broken lol". In fact, 12 zerg advanced compare to 7 terran. You're going to have to accept the fact that you're just bad and your attitude is whats holding you back. Fruitdealer won a major tourney when WOL came out, too. The stats don't lie, sorry.
Yeah, and perhaps people needed to follow Fruitdealer's footsteps rather than balance whine about Terran. IIRC, Terran got nerfed again and again until the uttershite that was late WoL balance. And you want a repeat of that history?
Current stats portray a hugely blown-up perspective and lie about the significance.
1 of 2 is 50%.
1 of 100 is 1%
The percentages will fluctuate very rapidly when you have smaller sample size. A couple of games here, and a couple of games there will fluctuate the stats wildly at this stage.
And seriously, for you to compare the 12 zerg qualifiers to Fruitdealer as exceptions is hilarious. There are 12 zergs over 7 terrans who qualified. Not 12 Terrans and 1 Zerg (which then would be more likely an exception).
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EPT
