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On April 13 2013 05:08 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:04 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Maybe if you play "standard". HoTS opened up more options for all the races. Standard is standard for a reason. You're deluded if you think mech in its current form can replace bio as a standard. The style is considerably inferior and probably not even viable against Protoss who know how to play against it.
So thats it then, the pro players have fully mastered HoTS and there is nothing left for them to learn. It's bio or nothing, and they've tried every build, micro trick, tactic, on all the maps and they still come up short?
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On April 13 2013 05:13 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:08 TheDwf wrote:On April 13 2013 05:04 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Maybe if you play "standard". HoTS opened up more options for all the races. Standard is standard for a reason. You're deluded if you think mech in its current form can replace bio as a standard. The style is considerably inferior and probably not even viable against Protoss who know how to play against it. So thats it then, the pro players have fully mastered HoTS and there is nothing left for them to learn. It's bio or nothing, and they've tried every build, micro trick, tactic, on all the maps and they still come up short?
Mech? lol.. I hope that's a joke.
Terran is supposed to "shine" mid game. But with it being hard to even make it out of the early game now, you c an potentially not even get there. Now with the PN ( Planetary Nexus ), even mid-game aggression is easily thwarted.
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On April 13 2013 05:16 VPVanek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:13 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:08 TheDwf wrote:On April 13 2013 05:04 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Maybe if you play "standard". HoTS opened up more options for all the races. Standard is standard for a reason. You're deluded if you think mech in its current form can replace bio as a standard. The style is considerably inferior and probably not even viable against Protoss who know how to play against it. So thats it then, the pro players have fully mastered HoTS and there is nothing left for them to learn. It's bio or nothing, and they've tried every build, micro trick, tactic, on all the maps and they still come up short? Mech? lol.. I hope that's a joke. Terran is supposed to "shine" mid game. But with it being hard to even make it out of the early game now, you c an potentially not even get there. Now with the PN ( Planetary Nexus ), even mid-game aggression is easily thwarted.
Why not mech? I bet Flash could figure it out :D
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On April 13 2013 05:13 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:08 TheDwf wrote:On April 13 2013 05:04 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Maybe if you play "standard". HoTS opened up more options for all the races. Standard is standard for a reason. You're deluded if you think mech in its current form can replace bio as a standard. The style is considerably inferior and probably not even viable against Protoss who know how to play against it. So thats it then, the pro players have fully mastered HoTS and there is nothing left for them to learn.
Oh yes, no doubt there is still a lot to learn about mech TvP. But I am ready to bet this knowledge will not make the style shine. Quite on the contrary, it will show how bad it is, because you have zero advantage and only drawbacks compared with bio, while Protoss has a myriad of choices to kill you.
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On April 13 2013 05:33 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 05:13 AnomalySC2 wrote:On April 13 2013 05:08 TheDwf wrote:On April 13 2013 05:04 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Maybe if you play "standard". HoTS opened up more options for all the races. Standard is standard for a reason. You're deluded if you think mech in its current form can replace bio as a standard. The style is considerably inferior and probably not even viable against Protoss who know how to play against it. So thats it then, the pro players have fully mastered HoTS and there is nothing left for them to learn. Oh yes, no doubt there is still a lot to learn about mech TvP. But I am ready to bet this knowledge will not make the style shine. Quite on the contrary, it will show how bad it is, because you have zero advantage and only drawbacks compared with bio, while Protoss has a myriad of choices to kill you.
This is how I feel early game.
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Why would now mech suddenly be reinvented anyway instead of in WoL? Sure in HotS mech got some boosts, but at the same time toss got massive anti-mech boosts.
Sure hellbats are nice, but they aren't as great as some claim them to be for mech. For example today I did mech against a toss and actually happened to win in the end. The last engagement (we were midgame), he had mainly zealots + some archons and some random other stuff. I didn't had that many hellbats/hellions, but since I won the engagement before that I wanted to force another fight. So guess what: I switched all my hellbats to hellions before the fight, so I could kite his zealots in, instead of having to stand up to all his zealots.
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On April 13 2013 05:45 Sissors wrote:
Why would now mech suddenly be reinvented anyway instead of in WoL? Sure in HotS mech got some boosts, but at the same time toss got massive anti-mech boosts.
Sure hellbats are nice, but they aren't as great as some claim them to be for mech. For example today I did mech against a toss and actually happened to win in the end. The last engagement (we were midgame), he had mainly zealots + some archons and some random other stuff. I didn't had that many hellbats/hellions, but since I won the engagement before that I wanted to force another fight. So guess what: I switched all my hellbats to hellions before the fight, so I could kite his zealots in, instead of having to stand up to all his zealots.
You're forgetting that starport units can also be a part of your mech composition, not to mention you didn't bring up window mines and good sim city.
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Good sim city helps mainly against stupid toss who really want to do the frontal assault. It can't hurt, but it also isn't the holy grail. And how did sim city change exactly in in HotS? If anything sim city promotes a longer game, where toss is boosted compared to WoL (tempests).
Starport units could also be a part of your composition in WoL, so thats also nothing new. Yes widow mines are new, but toss isn't exactly lacking in new stuff against mech either. Like I said, mech got boosts, but toss anti-mech got at least as many boosts.
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I know a lot of terrans are struggling with protoss early game, myself included. One of my ideas was having the missile turret have a similar buff to the spore crawler - no engi bay required for the turret. Turrets help a lot with DTs, oracles and to some extent other allins, but getting an engibay that early really eats into the minerals required to set up the infrastructure and to get vital marines.
I'm only plat myself though - what does everyone think of this idea? I can't see it affecting much else, would make banshee openers harder in TvT as well as widow mine drops a bit less effective vs T.
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On April 13 2013 06:09 Sphyxx wrote:
I know a lot of terrans are struggling with protoss early game, myself included. One of my ideas was having the missile turret have a similar buff to the spore crawler - no engi bay required for the turret. Turrets help a lot with DTs, oracles and to some extent other allins, but getting an engibay that early really eats into the minerals required to set up the infrastructure and to get vital marines.
I'm only plat myself though - what does everyone think of this idea? I can't see it affecting much else, would make banshee openers harder in TvT as well as widow mine drops a bit less effective vs T.
Thats not your idea, we heard about it long long time ago.
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The current state of mech:
TvZ: It gets shut down hard by viper and swarmhost. Catz: 'It's way too easy'.
TvP: No pros are using it at all. Absolutely zero mech TvP has been played in major tournaments since HOTS.
TvT: Some KeSPA pros go mech against bio and it works occasionally.
Such a great success of 'making mech viable' as the most important goal of HOTS beta.
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On April 13 2013 06:09 Sphyxx wrote:
I know a lot of terrans are struggling with protoss early game, myself included. One of my ideas was having the missile turret have a similar buff to the spore crawler - no engi bay required for the turret. Turrets help a lot with DTs, oracles and to some extent other allins, but getting an engibay that early really eats into the minerals required to set up the infrastructure and to get vital marines.
I'm only plat myself though - what does everyone think of this idea? I can't see it affecting much else, would make banshee openers harder in TvT as well as widow mine drops a bit less effective vs T.
I think that is way too big of a buff. At the pro level right now, protoss are struggling against terran. With turbo-vacs it's really hard to take a third. One "equalizer" would be if terran had to choose between playing safe and getting the ebay (delaying the terran third/starport), or to play greedy and potentially lose to DTs and oracles.
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On April 12 2013 20:12 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 18:24 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
I still hate how protoss can mass up a 1A deathball and A move, and terran completely melts to it.
TvP for me is 40%, such a dumb fucking matchup. Then you're playing it wrong. Stop whining and figure out what you're doing wrong and get better.
I know what I'm doing wrong, I'm going mech.
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On April 13 2013 15:12 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 06:09 Sphyxx wrote:
I know a lot of terrans are struggling with protoss early game, myself included. One of my ideas was having the missile turret have a similar buff to the spore crawler - no engi bay required for the turret. Turrets help a lot with DTs, oracles and to some extent other allins, but getting an engibay that early really eats into the minerals required to set up the infrastructure and to get vital marines.
I'm only plat myself though - what does everyone think of this idea? I can't see it affecting much else, would make banshee openers harder in TvT as well as widow mine drops a bit less effective vs T.
I think that is way too big of a buff. At the pro level right now, protoss are struggling against terran. With turbo-vacs it's really hard to take a third. One "equalizer" would be if terran had to choose between playing safe and getting the ebay (delaying the terran third/starport), or to play greedy and potentially lose to DTs and oracles.
Getting an ebay doesn't delay the starport or the 3rd base. Every tvp bio build includes at least one ebay before 7:30. They are talking about getting it rediculously early for a turret (like 5:30). I don't agree though. I think reactor marines and mines deal with any early aggression no problem so long as the Terran scouts properly.
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On April 13 2013 14:22 larse wrote:
The current state of mech:
TvZ: It gets shut down hard by viper and swarmhost. Catz: 'It's way too easy'.
TvP: No pros are using it at all. Absolutely zero mech TvP has been played in major tournaments since HOTS.
TvT: Some KeSPA pros go mech against bio and it works occasionally.
Such a great success of 'making mech viable' as the most important goal of HOTS beta.
I'm in diamond so i'm no pro but I've found that:
TvZ: vipers shut down tanks that are sieged up. So, if you see vipers, don't siege your tanks up. When blinding cloud is casted, just back off and the zerg's roaches and hydras can't follow you through the cloud or it's suicide for them.
TvP: yep, mech is completely crap in this matchup. But ideally you want an absurd amount of tanks and actually not that many hellbats. 30 tanks can still shit all over a bunch of immortals and archons. You don't need many hellbats actually to tank chargelots.
TvT: One word: hellions. They're so damn good in this matchup, and hellbat drops are still OP in my honest opinion.
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On April 13 2013 15:36 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 15:29 Duncaaaaaan wrote:On April 12 2013 20:12 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 18:24 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
I still hate how protoss can mass up a 1A deathball and A move, and terran completely melts to it.
TvP for me is 40%, such a dumb fucking matchup. Then you're playing it wrong. Stop whining and figure out what you're doing wrong and get better. I know what I'm doing wrong, I'm going mech. Honestly mech works fine up until like mid masters. On my off race Terran account I go mech for fun about half the time and mostly win. Anyway I am very curious as to why Blizzard has not tried to fix ZvZ yet. I have some possible ideas... 1. Hydra buff vs air (may help with skytoss imba too) 2. Queen buff vs bio air 3. Slight fungal buff?
yeah, that's the only thing that is really bugging me with the "wait before you patch" stuff. I'm currently only playing Terran when laddering, because I absolutly can't stand ZvZ... though I prefer ZvT>TvZ ZvP>>TvP and I'm not a huge TvT fan either. But man... ZvZ sucks sooo hard. (and watching it sucks even harder  )
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On April 13 2013 15:36 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 15:29 Duncaaaaaan wrote:On April 12 2013 20:12 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 18:24 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
I still hate how protoss can mass up a 1A deathball and A move, and terran completely melts to it.
TvP for me is 40%, such a dumb fucking matchup. Then you're playing it wrong. Stop whining and figure out what you're doing wrong and get better. I know what I'm doing wrong, I'm going mech. Honestly mech works fine up until like mid masters. On my off race Terran account I go mech for fun about half the time and mostly win. Anyway I am very curious as to why Blizzard has not tried to fix ZvZ yet. I have some possible ideas... 1. Hydra buff vs air (may help with skytoss imba too) 2. Queen buff vs bio air 3. Slight fungal buff?
Why do you think BUFFING is the right answer? Just because kiddies hate the term "nerf" and a "buff" is easier to swallow (sell to them)?
The imbalance is caused by new changes and then buffing other units to fix that is the wrong way to go, because then the Hydralisks might be OP against Vikings and BCs and Carriers and so on ... which you didnt intend to change at all. You would then have to buff those other units which were supposedly fine to begin with.
So the correct way to approach fixing balance is always to try and keep the stuff that is working fine as it is and adjust the bad (mostly new) stuff. This isnt a Warhammer game where every new race that comes out is more powerful than the rest to make people buy the new stuff again but rather a computer game with a serious competitive aspect and the eventual end goal is to reach a stable balance (which Blizzard didnt even achieve in WoL).
-----
And if you cant "fix" a unit by tonig it down then the whole concept might be totally stupid ... Widow Mines and Tempests come to mind here. They need to be redesigned or taken out completely just as they did for the Warhound ...
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On April 13 2013 16:24 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 15:36 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 13 2013 15:29 Duncaaaaaan wrote:On April 12 2013 20:12 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 18:24 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
I still hate how protoss can mass up a 1A deathball and A move, and terran completely melts to it.
TvP for me is 40%, such a dumb fucking matchup. Then you're playing it wrong. Stop whining and figure out what you're doing wrong and get better. I know what I'm doing wrong, I'm going mech. Honestly mech works fine up until like mid masters. On my off race Terran account I go mech for fun about half the time and mostly win. Anyway I am very curious as to why Blizzard has not tried to fix ZvZ yet. I have some possible ideas... 1. Hydra buff vs air (may help with skytoss imba too) 2. Queen buff vs bio air 3. Slight fungal buff? Why do you think BUFFING is the right answer? Just because kiddies hate the term "nerf" and a "buff" is easier to swallow (sell to them)? The imbalance is caused by new changes and then buffing other units to fix that is the wrong way to go, because then the Hydralisks might be OP against Vikings and BCs and Carriers and so on ... which you didnt intend to change at all. You would then have to buff those other units which were supposedly fine to begin with. So the correct way to approach fixing balance is always to try and keep the stuff that is working fine as it is and adjust the bad (mostly new) stuff. This isnt a Warhammer game where every new race that comes out is more powerful than the rest to make people buy the new stuff again but rather a computer game with a serious competitive aspect and the eventual end goal is to reach a stable balance (which Blizzard didnt even achieve in WoL). ----- And if you cant "fix" a unit by tonig it down then the whole concept might be totally stupid ... Widow Mines and Tempests come to mind here. They need to be redesigned or taken out completely just as they did for the Warhound ...
The "imbalance" (it's a mirror, it's not imbalanced. It's just stupid) is caused mostly by the infestor nerf. On top of that, the tissue regeneration makes it even more unforgiving for the opponent.
lol... widow mines are awesome. One of the best units in all of the starcraft universe which create extremly interesting situations. Tempests are OK. They are at least much more interesting as BCs as a Capital Ship (though I don't like Capital ships in Starcraft, but whatever... they are not going to go away)
You are just crying because it is stuff that was not in Broodwar and blindly hating on it.
Btw, has anybody seen the last State of the Game with CatZ and Moonglade. Where CatZ said something along the lines of "why do people even try to play Mutalisks when they are behind in ZvZ? You can as well just try something else even if it doesn't work, because if you go mutas from behind, you are just going to lose anyways." That's the whole story of ZvZ right now
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EPT
