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On March 25 2013 22:27 bigbadgreen wrote:Show nested quote +I think its funny that zerg players are complaining about Speedvacs. You can have overlords in dead space, to spot these drops. It's not always about the peripheral drops. In the game I mentioned the medivacs didn't fly over dead space. They were flying to the top of the ramps leading to the 4th and 5th of Life and forcing him to move his army back and forth. with the DPS of marine/marauder it doesn't take long to snipe a hatch.
Wow, something was forcing Life to do something else, that must be really OP! Did Life win? Yes, of course? Oh shit, that's OP anyway!
-> Drops forcing Zerg to react is not a good argument for a drop nerf. Zerg wasn't forced to react to anything for almost 1 year and we know how that turned out.
Nah honestly, drops are fine vs Zerg, they're more concerning vs Protoss.
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Creep spread is free vision.
Burrow lings around the map to catch drops.
I think zerg just needs to adapt.. For once.
watch the game. edit: sorry didn't specify which game. mlg dallas polt vs life game 4
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just add a exchangeable resource. like boost costs energy, higher cooldown.
so now is a trade to use it. this should be in pair with the benefit. getting free boosts is annoying ...
still not sure why Terran are the only ones to get free enhances/cool things.
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Wow, something was forcing Life to do something else, that must be really OP! Did Life win? Yes, of course? Oh shit, that's OP anyway!
no Polt won that game. The issue isn't forcing zerg to react,. the issue is that you're forcing zerg to choose between splitting thier army and not being able to defend anything anywhere. Or just giving up their production ability. what a great choice. Even in full out defensive mode Life couldn't hold.
Ok maybe not nerf medivacs but buff roach/hydra/spore to be able to stop a drop. the only way roach/hydra can beat a terran dedicated to drops is with viper support. and drops come earlier than vipers do. You have to give zerg a chance to take down the drops they do spot.
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On March 25 2013 22:46 Grimmac wrote:
just add a exchangeable resource. like boost costs energy, higher cooldown.
so now is a trade to use it. this should be in pair with the benefit. getting free boosts is annoying ...
still not sure why Terran are the only ones to get free enhances/cool things.
Wtf...
Void ray buff was free.
Muta acceleration and regen were free.
I've had enough of seeing that argument. If you find what Terran got cooler, that's your problem, but all races got something out of this expansion pack.
On March 25 2013 22:48 bigbadgreen wrote:Show nested quote +Wow, something was forcing Life to do something else, that must be really OP! Did Life win? Yes, of course? Oh shit, that's OP anyway! no Polt won that game. The issue isn't forcing zerg to react,. the issue is that you're forcing zerg to choose between splitting thier army and not being able to defend anything anywhere. Or just giving up their production ability. what a great choice. Even in full out defensive mode Life couldn't hold. Ok maybe not nerf medivacs but buff roach/hydra/spore to be able to stop a drop. the only way roach/hydra can beat a terran dedicated to drops is with viper support. and drops come earlier than vipers do. You have to give zerg a chance to take down the drops they do spot.
So Polt won a game against an exhausted as fuck Life. Big fucking deal.
If 2 drops are going on at the same time and he pushes with his main army on the creep, here's how you do it: you split your army in 2 to deal with the 2 drops (your army is at least as big as Terran's army, so one half should deal with a puny drop very easily), then you gather your forces and deal with the push. Your army is fast, his is slow, by the time you dealt with the drops, his army can't have advanced very far on the creep and you can defend with all your forces.
Protip: You can still make mutalisks, you're not forced to wait for vipers.
Protip2: Life did make mutalisks in the later rounds of that tournament.
Protip3: Life won the tournament.
The solution to beating Terran with Zerg is actually to play better than him. Something Zerg hasn't had to do for a year, I know, but I'm sure they will learn to do it eventually.
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My early quick opinions on the balance (Terran):
1: Medivac speed boost needs to have a large cooldown. The problem others like MKP have mentioned is there is no risk reward for it. I think if you had a cooldown that last 1 minute you would at least have to think about when you use it, rather than using it for getting in a base, and getting out, you'd have to choose one. In some situations this would make your army able to get in a base it normally wouldnt, but without the ability to just boost back by the same defenses on the way out. I don't think the medivacs should have it taken away, but I do think it should be an extremely limited last resort type of measure.
2: Oracles need to be delayed. Yes with proper scouting ( I reaper scout these a lot ) you can prepare, but the amount of preparation needed is some what ridiculous at the stage of the game the unit comes out. That and if you are unable to get a good scout of the amount of work to be safe against it is also absurd for that stage of the game. I don't think there is anything wrong with the unit itself, more the speed at which it can come out, especially with proxies.
3: Swarm Hosts seem kind of pointless? At least in my experience I haven't seen any reason to use them against a Terran. Probably the least exciting unit in HotS.
4: Tempest, range 15. This is probably the one thing I don't understand the most. Why do they need such range? I can understand a protoss air siege unit but range 15 seems unnecessary. I say something like 12 would be more realistic.
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On March 25 2013 23:50 DooMDash wrote:
1: Medivac speed boost needs to have a large cooldown. The problem others like MKP have mentioned is there is no risk reward for it. I think if you had a cooldown that last 1 minute you would at least have to think about when you use it, rather than using it for getting in a base, and getting out, you'd have to choose one. In some situations this would make your army able to get in a base it normally wouldnt, but without the ability to just boost back by the same defenses on the way out. I don't think the medivacs should have it taken away, but I do think it should be an extremely limited last resort type of measure.
I think a longer cooldown seems like a sensible nerf, as medivac drops and multitasking can still be encouraged but you won't constantly be able to swoop around your opponent's base forever.
That change makes far more sense than making the boost cost energy, considering an energy cost would make medivacs even harder to kill (because feedback would do less damage).
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Does anyone else think that the medivac is fine? I'm a masters toss and I havent been having that much trouble with it
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On March 26 2013 02:33 MetalxStorm wrote:
Does anyone else think that the medivac is fine? I'm a masters toss and I havent been having that much trouble with it
Planetary Nexus owns drops in my opinion. Only koreans can pull them off.
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On March 26 2013 02:33 MetalxStorm wrote:
Does anyone else think that the medivac is fine? I'm a masters toss and I havent been having that much trouble with it
I also think that is fine, we will see in a few months, I think that they shouldn't touch anything for now.
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Am I the only one who thinks Blizzard should put their test realms into heavy use with radical balance changes, I mean a lot of modders try plenty of things out but the player bases seem very fragmented and I doubt most of the feedback reaches them. They could just slap a frontpage "Try it now!" ad and sit back and collect data.
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On March 25 2013 15:14 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 15:11 MrMotionPicture wrote:
Speedvacs should just take a little extra damage whenever they are in boost mode. I think that is all that would really have to be changed with that. That completely negates the purpose of the speed boost...
No, it makes it more risky to use the boost, but makes players think more strategically where to drop off the units instead of straight into everything. It shouldn't do a lot of extra damage, just a little to pose a threat.
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On March 26 2013 01:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 23:50 DooMDash wrote:
1: Medivac speed boost needs to have a large cooldown. The problem others like MKP have mentioned is there is no risk reward for it. I think if you had a cooldown that last 1 minute you would at least have to think about when you use it, rather than using it for getting in a base, and getting out, you'd have to choose one. In some situations this would make your army able to get in a base it normally wouldnt, but without the ability to just boost back by the same defenses on the way out. I don't think the medivacs should have it taken away, but I do think it should be an extremely limited last resort type of measure.
I think a longer cooldown seems like a sensible nerf, as medivac drops and multitasking can still be encouraged but you won't constantly be able to swoop around your opponent's base forever. That change makes far more sense than making the boost cost energy, considering an energy cost would make medivacs even harder to kill (because feedback would do less damage).
I hear what your saying, but I think it would create an interesting dynamic in TvP. Even if Boosting cost a small chunk of energy (15 energy even), it makes it so a feedbacked medivac can't boost away so easily. Besides, I rarely see feedback kill medivacs, and stalkers are usually needed to finnish them off anyways.
Longer cooldown would also be a good idea as well. It seems like there's very little strategy of when to use boost, so players just boost whenever possible. A longer cooldown would create a conflict: Do I boost in to spread my units out further and surprise my enemy, or do I save my boost to save my marines if he's prepared for my drop?
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On March 26 2013 03:24 MrMotionPicture wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 15:14 aksfjh wrote:On March 25 2013 15:11 MrMotionPicture wrote:
Speedvacs should just take a little extra damage whenever they are in boost mode. I think that is all that would really have to be changed with that. That completely negates the purpose of the speed boost... No, it makes it more risky to use the boost, but makes players think more strategically where to drop off the units instead of straight into everything. It shouldn't do a lot of extra damage, just a little to pose a threat.
The whole purpose of the speed boost is that the medivac is harder to take out. If you add the extra damage when in boost mode then it would contradict for what it is supposed to do, which would make it essentially pretty useless ability. Furthermore it would discourage terrans from drop play, which is what blizzard wants to encourage terrans to do more.
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On March 25 2013 22:57 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 22:46 Grimmac wrote:
just add a exchangeable resource. like boost costs energy, higher cooldown.
so now is a trade to use it. this should be in pair with the benefit. getting free boosts is annoying ...
still not sure why Terran are the only ones to get free enhances/cool things.
Wtf... Void ray buff was free. Muta acceleration and regen were free. I've had enough of seeing that argument. If you find what Terran got cooler, that's your problem, but all races got something out of this expansion pack.
Void was rework of unused unit. Afterburner was the same unit with a new free ability. It'd be like old Void with 3 stage charge + new charge CD. Zerg Muta was a +buff though.
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On March 26 2013 03:39 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 22:57 ZenithM wrote:On March 25 2013 22:46 Grimmac wrote:
just add a exchangeable resource. like boost costs energy, higher cooldown.
so now is a trade to use it. this should be in pair with the benefit. getting free boosts is annoying ...
still not sure why Terran are the only ones to get free enhances/cool things.
Wtf... Void ray buff was free. Muta acceleration and regen were free. I've had enough of seeing that argument. If you find what Terran got cooler, that's your problem, but all races got something out of this expansion pack. Void was rework of unused unit. Afterburner was the same unit with a new free ability. It'd be like old Void with 3 stage charge + new charge CD. Zerg Muta was a +buff though.
Ok then.
Phoenix got +1 range. How about that?
...
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Heh, it's funny how Dustin Browder and David Kim suddenly woke up after 2 years of WoL and decided "We need more harassment for the game to be more exciting!". Should've thought about that before putting in Warpgates, Creep speed bonus, and making huge armies effortlessly walk across the map in perfect balls. They wouldn't have had to exacerbate the mobility arms race by throwing in nonsense like afterburners if they had the sense to make a game where positional play actually counted for something. Then all the races would drop to take advantage of the opponent's army being out of position, as opposed to just Terrans dropping because it's usually free damage.
And yet they insist on doing everything backwards. Can't wait for LotV and the inevitable warpgate boost upgrade, which allows units to warp in instantly. Still waiting for lings to be able to jump over cliffs as well.
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On March 25 2013 22:37 VPVanek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 22:27 bigbadgreen wrote:I think its funny that zerg players are complaining about Speedvacs. You can have overlords in dead space, to spot these drops. It's not always about the peripheral drops. In the game I mentioned the medivacs didn't fly over dead space. They were flying to the top of the ramps leading to the 4th and 5th of Life and forcing him to move his army back and forth. with the DPS of marine/marauder it doesn't take long to snipe a hatch. Creep spread is free vision. Burrow lings around the map to catch drops. I think zerg just needs to adapt.. For once.
you realy ask for zerg do adapt ?? LOL , they never do that , they whine until the stuft get nerfed .
but yeah this would be a nice change if protoss and zerg just learn how to counter the medivac , but whatever , will not happen.
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On March 26 2013 04:58 quebecman77 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 22:37 VPVanek wrote:On March 25 2013 22:27 bigbadgreen wrote:I think its funny that zerg players are complaining about Speedvacs. You can have overlords in dead space, to spot these drops. It's not always about the peripheral drops. In the game I mentioned the medivacs didn't fly over dead space. They were flying to the top of the ramps leading to the 4th and 5th of Life and forcing him to move his army back and forth. with the DPS of marine/marauder it doesn't take long to snipe a hatch. Creep spread is free vision. Burrow lings around the map to catch drops. I think zerg just needs to adapt.. For once. you realy ask for zerg do adapt ?? LOL , they never do that , they whine until the stuft get nerfed . but yeah this would be a nice change if protoss and zerg just learn how to counter the medivac , but whatever , will not happen.
Thats exactly the type of attitude that this thread wants to avoid.
Most of the nerfs zerg called for were completely justified, and have made the game alot fairer and more exciting.
Even if zerg players do see a drop coming, the dps from marine and marauders in a medivac, coupled with the ability to fly away unscathed make it almost always worth it
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EPT
