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On March 25 2013 15:37 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 15:22 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 25 2013 13:34 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Has anyone noticed how absurdly powerful mass Swamhosts are? Adding some other opinions on this: You like a lot of other Zergs don't seem to realize how powerful these are. The only complaint/argument Zergs/spectators can really make against swarmhosts is that in low numbers they absolutely suck (<5-6) but when you reach like 10-11+ it's almost as if you have 1-2 extra bases worth of resources from having a free army every 25 seconds + whatever else.
Maybe you haven't seen or played the new swarmhost/corruptor strategy...if you get up to around 20-25 swarmhosts with all anti-air in the form of fungal/corruptors/queens it works really well vs P/T. I agree with this, I think they are even more powerful than broodlords once figured out. yes it makes you immobile to some extent but so did broodlords and broodlords cant even go through nydus' Once people actually start facing this strategy (understanding critical mass as opposed to low numbers of SH) in my opinion people will start to realize that it's absurdly powerful and abusive (Lair tech, and easily takes out fully upgraded ground armies with free units) when executed properly; part of the reason I think it's so abusive is that when Locust lifespan is upgraded they have no downtime, so it's impossible to engage unlike the Widow Mine. For those who have encountered it in proper form what are your thoughts? Who else thinks that "critical number of units" is at the core of most problems in SC2? The ability to concentrate units so much that they become "invulnerable" due to their firepower which will annihilate any enemy before they even have the chance to hit themselves and deal significant damage is just ridiculously bad for a strategy game. Sadly the Blizzard devs do not understand this or else they would really do something about the deathball and they certainly wouldnt have added another "free unit spawner" which could be massed.
Yeah. That's what I hate about the whole swarmhost concept. You don't have 2-3 Locusts and suddenly a very strong strategic position. You have a mild annoyance. 6-10 Locusts and you have a free army for pushing forward but no particular impact on offensive or defensive posturing.
ofc the big problem with PvT drop play is like well a lot of things in sc2. One player solves the problem by throwing economy at it rather than any cool trick or micro.
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Depending on the army you have a few swarm hosts can force engagements that favour you quite nicely
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On March 25 2013 18:57 baldgye wrote:
Depending on the army you have a few swarm hosts can force engagements that favour you quite nicely
Not really.
Design wise,SH are freaking terrible.
They are the type of unit that you have to mass it in order for it to be effective like pre-nerf WoL Infestor.
They are more of a mid-game unit.
I find them gimmicky.
A few swarm hosts can't force engagements.
You need like 10++ swarm hosts to actually force engagements.
Leenock has been abusing this 2 base swarm hosts contain transition into 3/4 bases hydra/viper to win his ladder game.
But his build will be figured out eventually.
Once people started to use WPs to counter attack or use hallucination to scout out the 2 base SH contain.
They can transition into collosus faster to counter it.
Or use proxy pylons to counter. against Leenock build like how Squirtle does it.
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I agree that Swarm Hosts is in a poor state currently. Either you don't have enough of them and they're just dead supply, and locusts just come crashing in your defenses, or you make 20 and suddenly you rape everything on the ground (but who wants to see 20+ of that unit, of any support unit for that matter...)
Give Impalers to Zerg. :p
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On March 25 2013 19:15 ZenithM wrote:
I agree that Swarm Hosts is in a poor state currently. Either you don't have enough of them and they're just dead supply, and locusts just come crashing in your defenses, or you make 20 and suddenly you rape everything on the ground (but who wants to see 20+ of that unit, of any support unit for that matter...)
Give Impalers to Zerg. :p
Well it will break the game if zerg gets impaler.
No joke.
Those stuffs may not have AoE dmg but they hit like a truck with their DPS and insane siege range.
lol.
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I disagree, but only because of personal experience on ladder. With 3-5 SHs (and ofc an army) you can pressure for free forcing either the Protoss player to loose stuff or energy on sentries.
It's a pretty good way to deal with early game pressure, when you force the Z to make units early game and then just fall back, they can make a handful of SHs and pressure and or kill you while they tech to hive.
It's not impossible to defeat or get around but it can force you to commit to an attack in a pretty bad spot. I've had my natural sieged a whole bunch of times on daybreak and I've not figured out a good way to deal with it yet.
Though I've never played against someone who's simply massed SHs
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On March 25 2013 19:21 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 19:15 ZenithM wrote:
I agree that Swarm Hosts is in a poor state currently. Either you don't have enough of them and they're just dead supply, and locusts just come crashing in your defenses, or you make 20 and suddenly you rape everything on the ground (but who wants to see 20+ of that unit, of any support unit for that matter...)
Give Impalers to Zerg. :p Well it will break the game if zerg gets impaler. No joke. Those stuffs may not have AoE dmg but they hit like a truck with their DPS and insane siege range. lol.
I would actually be glad to give Zerg siege tanks and take Impalers for Terran ;D
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On March 25 2013 16:15 Thrillz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 16:12 Big J wrote:On March 25 2013 16:02 Empirimancer wrote:
The more pro games I see the less convinced I am there's anything OP about Terran right now. Protoss and Zerg are adapting fairly quickly for the most part.
The balance seems to be quite OK right now, but we'll have to wait for GSL. The biggest problem right now is that ZvZ is beyond stupid. Have you seen PvP?
I hate to say this but PvP currently is better than ZvZ in HotS.
Unlike in WoL where ZvZ is arguably better than PvP.
ZvZ in a nutshell in HotS.
Early ling/bling battles and then transition into muta vs muta battle.
And Whoever got more muta just outright wins.
Going roach/hydra, roach/infestor is not viable at the pro level based on the games i have seen.
With mutas,you can assert strong map control and force them to be on 2 bases for a long time.
Couple with muta buff and infestor nerfs to fungal and ITs.
You can dodge fungals much easier and the regeneration helps a ton.
Mutas are the go to choice now in ZvZ and if this continues.
ZvZ will become stagnant.
Until Blizz does something about it.
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Tissue regeneration was kind of a bad idea, I mean it's just a passive buff, nothing like micro or anything that raises muta skill ceiling. Bliz tried to "fix" this by buffing the spore damage. For some reason, they also thought it would be a good idea to make it not require evo, which doesn't do much in ZvZ but makes DT and banshee openers vs Z even less viable...
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On March 25 2013 19:21 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 19:15 ZenithM wrote:
I agree that Swarm Hosts is in a poor state currently. Either you don't have enough of them and they're just dead supply, and locusts just come crashing in your defenses, or you make 20 and suddenly you rape everything on the ground (but who wants to see 20+ of that unit, of any support unit for that matter...)
Give Impalers to Zerg. :p Well it will break the game if zerg gets impaler. No joke. Those stuffs may not have AoE dmg but they hit like a truck with their DPS and insane siege range. lol.
If we're talking campaign units, I wouldn't mind aberrations. A fast melee unit that can walk over zerglings... it's what I wish the ultralisk was.
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On March 25 2013 19:52 Thrillz wrote:
Tissue regeneration was kind of a bad idea, I mean it's just a passive buff, nothing like micro or anything that raises muta skill ceiling. Bliz tried to "fix" this by buffing the spore damage. For some reason, they also thought it would be a good idea to make it not require evo, which doesn't do much in ZvZ but makes DT and banshee openers vs Z even less viable...
I personally don't understand the reason they buffed mutas in the first place, they where already a really good unit to mass vs P and T with bling support...
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On March 25 2013 19:52 Thrillz wrote:
Tissue regeneration was kind of a bad idea, I mean it's just a passive buff, nothing like micro or anything that raises muta skill ceiling. Bliz tried to "fix" this by buffing the spore damage. For some reason, they also thought it would be a good idea to make it not require evo, which doesn't do much in ZvZ but makes DT and banshee openers vs Z even less viable...
It's true that DT and banshee are less effective, but they also gained new opening in the oracle and reapers. As a zerg I'd gladly give up my no-evo spores if it would guarantee that no reapers show up before I have a queen. (Lately, they're showing up 60 seconds before I have a queen...)
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On March 25 2013 20:00 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 19:52 Thrillz wrote:
Tissue regeneration was kind of a bad idea, I mean it's just a passive buff, nothing like micro or anything that raises muta skill ceiling. Bliz tried to "fix" this by buffing the spore damage. For some reason, they also thought it would be a good idea to make it not require evo, which doesn't do much in ZvZ but makes DT and banshee openers vs Z even less viable... I personally don't understand the reason they buffed mutas in the first place, they where already a really good unit to mass vs P and T with bling support...
My guess is that T and P got so many new toys like mship core, reaper, hellbat, medivac speed, oracle... while zerg's early to mid game looked exactly the same. They figured zerg needs a nice little buff like that... plus it helps zerg deal with the speedy medivacs and allows for more frequent harrassment (taking one thor shot doesn't put your flock out of commission for a full minute anymore).
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On March 25 2013 19:15 ZenithM wrote:
I agree that Swarm Hosts is in a poor state currently. Either you don't have enough of them and they're just dead supply, and locusts just come crashing in your defenses, or you make 20 and suddenly you rape everything on the ground (but who wants to see 20+ of that unit, of any support unit for that matter...)
Give Impalers to Zerg. :p
Yeah, I can't stand swarm hosts. The only way I can succeed with them is to go 3 base roach ling for a while, store up a huge bank, then suddenly dump it into a dozen SH.
Then once I have them, I just park them and let them attack... there's not much to do. They just fire away and I hope good things happen, and reinforce to that same position. No skill involved.
SH also aren't great for base trade scenarios... and that's an excellent play to make if you find yourself unexpectedly facing mass SH when you aren't prepared. Just go counter and kill the zerg main... it's not like he can get home fast enough to stop you.
Wouldn't surprise me if 6 months from now, SH are virtually never used in competition.
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Why arnt SH good for base trades? You can generate an army for free from them that can kill the detection generating tech and bases pretty quickly
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On March 25 2013 19:52 Thrillz wrote:
Tissue regeneration was kind of a bad idea, I mean it's just a passive buff, nothing like micro or anything that raises muta skill ceiling. Bliz tried to "fix" this by buffing the spore damage. For some reason, they also thought it would be a good idea to make it not require evo, which doesn't do much in ZvZ but makes DT and banshee openers vs Z even less viable...
My friend.
The reason why Spore doesn't required Evo is respond to the early Widow Mine play.
DT openers are still viable but Banshee build are phased out in the current metagame in favor of WM drop play and early reaper.
Also,SH are terrible in base trade situation.
They are immobile and don't assert map control like the Mutas.
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On March 25 2013 20:21 baldgye wrote:
Why arnt SH good for base trades? You can generate an army for free from them that can kill the detection generating tech and bases pretty quickly
Are you serious?
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What do you guys think about this tweak on medivacs:
After using the booster ability the medivac will get a reduction on its speed proportional to the increase the boost gave and be effecting under the same duration
Let’s say you’re going from point A---------B--------->C and decide to boost from point A to B. The time traveling from B will be faster and in the end u will reach destination C faster. If we have a speed reduction added after the ability is used and its proportional to the increase then traveling from A to C is just as fast when not deciding to use bosters. This will slow down the drop timing without effecting it main purpose of getting in to the base.
The second effect of this is that you can no longer boost in to a base and then pick up and get out as easily . T here will be a window of opportunity where the medivacs are slow enough to be shoot down. This forces the player to make a decision if he/she wants to boost in the drop or use it to get out. This tweak won’t change the function of the boost but will open up a choice where boosting isn’t always the best choice and let the races deal with it.
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On March 25 2013 20:37 Anomi wrote:
What do you guys think about this tweak on medivacs:
After using the booster ability the medivac will get a reduction on its speed proportional to the increase the boost gave and be effecting under the same duration
Let’s say you’re going from point A---------B--------->C and decide to boost from point A to B. The time traveling from B will be faster and in the end u will reach destination C faster. If we have a speed reduction added after the ability is used and its proportional to the increase then traveling from A to C is just as fast when not deciding to use bosters.
[ ... ]
I'm not following. You are saying that with your 'speed reduction' suggestion, going from A -> C will be just as fast whether you use boosters or not? So what's the point of boosters then o_O?
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On March 25 2013 20:35 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 20:21 baldgye wrote:
Why arnt SH good for base trades? You can generate an army for free from them that can kill the detection generating tech and bases pretty quickly Are you serious?
Yes I'm serious, that was a question. I know comprehension can be difficult, but this is a forum so please do try.
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EPT
