EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 403
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bananafone
68 Posts
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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
On March 25 2013 20:47 baldgye wrote: Yes I'm serious, that was a question. I know comprehension can be difficult, but this is a forum so please do try. Swarm Hosts are slow, they spawn Locusts relatively slow. Base trades are about killing your opponent's buildings as fast as possible, which can be spread all over the map. Swarm Hosts are obviously not great in a base trade scenario, perhaps only in defending your own base. It's quite obvious which is why MateShade wondered if you were serious. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
In my opinion a better nerf would be to have the medivac boostable only once per drop, as in increasing the cooldown. That way you could only boost on the way in or on the way out, instead of both. This is assuming the unit even needs nerfing. I think it's nice and promotes interesting player. I'd much rather just buff the other races' responses to this instead. | ||
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Anomi
Sweden149 Posts
On March 25 2013 20:40 dani` wrote: I'm not following. You are saying that with your 'speed reduction' suggestion, going from A -> C will be just as fast whether you use boosters or not? So what's the point of boosters then o_O? Sry if it was unclear. Its as u said going from point a--> to c will be just as fast making the boster abilty abouth temporally giving you an increas in spead. For intance if the enmie sets up a defens of turrets you can just boost over it. If there are stalkers waiting for you to intercept your drop you can jsut turn it around and boost. IF u end up dropping and u haven’t used the boost or the 8 seconds pass you can pick up and bost away. IF mutas is chasing the medivacs u can temporally boost them so they can get to your army. So basically you can still do what we see now with the medivacs. The things that will change is that you cant boost in and drop your units and just pick up and leave without any consequence . If u don’t pick them up before the boost ends u will suffer from having a very slow medivac that will be easy to snipe. IF the drops end up being there longer than 8 sec the speed reduction is gone. This is the window of opportunity where players that react fast to drops that are boosted in will be rewarded and players that don’t think before using the abilty will be punished.. The second thing is the situation when the mutas,stalkers,hydras,marines ect are chasing the drops will be abel to clean it upp faster . At the moment the medivac takes longer to be cleaned up since it take less damage when chased in its boosted state and also cover the distance faster. IF u switch out point a with medivacs current position and point c to army position then the medivacs will take more damage if they use it to earlier. There are some other aspects that might be changed but the main thing is that the core of the ability remains the same but it adds another layer of decision on the ability that doesn’t exist now. | ||
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FreeTossCZComentary
Czech Republic143 Posts
On March 25 2013 20:40 dani` wrote: I'm not following. You are saying that with your 'speed reduction' suggestion, going from A -> C will be just as fast whether you use boosters or not? So what's the point of boosters then o_O? Imagine that you slept with wife of 2.4 meter high boxing champion. If position A is room where you are with him and position B is safe place... police station for example... you dont mind that returning from that safe place to home(point C) will now take you longer. Its not same as when you just with your average speed leave room and go to safe place as you probably would not be able to survive if it was not for you using your boosters called adrenaline... Thats point of going boosters. | ||
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Anomi
Sweden149 Posts
On March 25 2013 21:10 FreeTossCZComentary wrote: Imagine that you slept with wife of 2.4 meter high boxing champion. If position A is room where you are with him and position B is safe place... police station for example... you dont mind that returning from that safe place to home(point C) will now take you longer. Its not same as when you just with your average speed leave room and go to safe place as you probably would not be able to survive if it was not for you using your boosters called adrenaline... Thats point of going boosters. LOL thats was a good illustration of my point xD | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On March 25 2013 20:14 Chocobo wrote: Yeah, I can't stand swarm hosts. The only way I can succeed with them is to go 3 base roach ling for a while, store up a huge bank, then suddenly dump it into a dozen SH. Then once I have them, I just park them and let them attack... there's not much to do. They just fire away and I hope good things happen, and reinforce to that same position. No skill involved. SH also aren't great for base trade scenarios... and that's an excellent play to make if you find yourself unexpectedly facing mass SH when you aren't prepared. Just go counter and kill the zerg main... it's not like he can get home fast enough to stop you. Wouldn't surprise me if 6 months from now, SH are virtually never used in competition. I disagree with you. Watch some Blade55555's replays from his Zerg thread. If you are killing your opponent just by parking Swarm Hosts in front of his base, that means that your opponent isn't that good. Once you start facing opponents that know how to deal with them, you will need ton of action around of them. Constant repositioning, releasing Locusts, then unburrow and back off. And I completely disagree with your 6 months thing, actually in 6 month pros might learn how to use them and abuse them correctly, and Swarm Hosts may become a standard unit. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On March 25 2013 15:59 RDaneelOlivaw wrote: Did I really just see a complaint about banelings? Really? What is this, 2010 pre-Foxer? The thing which makes Banelings terrible is that they FORCE actions from the DEFENDER. If you misclick OR do not react in time because you were looking somewhere else you are screwed. This more or less luck based way of determining the success of the unit is really bad design. Well designed units should use the OWNER's SKILL to determine their efficiency and not the lack of skill of your opponent. The fact that progamers have no problem dealing with a unit anymore is no indication that it is a well designed unit. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
By order of importance: 1) You can retreat way too easily (?). Sometimes I fly a medivac in a protoss base and don't pay much attention, the guy was ready for it and has like 6-7 stalkers just under my medivac but I can still get away with it :D Unless you have phoenix or mutas, you should not be able to kill any medivac at all. 2) You can by-pass static defenses more easily. This, I don't mind so much, if you by-pass 4 cannons with 4 medivacs and the Protoss didn't see it with an observer or something, it's his fault for being lazy with the scouting and army positioning and relying too much on turtling. In my humble opinion, static defenses should not be made to outright kill any drop/harass attempt, just to delay it long enough so that your army can come and deal with the units. Static defenses are boring, anything that lessen their effectiveness is not bad. 3) It effectively decreases the medivac travel time, making Terran able to harass more frequently. This is imo the best medivac buff design-wise. Harassing is cool and should be encouraged, anything that helps players make it more frequent and fast paced is good. So, if Blizzard decides to nerf medivacs, I would like their nerf to address only point (1) and not nerf all 3 points, making medivac play effectively less fun to play and watch. I don't know what kind of nerf would do the trick though... What do you think about "not being able to boost under attack"? Like, if your medivac takes damage, the boost reactor is disabled for 1 or 2 seconds or something (but if you're already boosting, it doesn't cancel the ability)? I think it would be a very acceptable nerf, and it only would address point (1). | ||
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baldgye
United Kingdom1092 Posts
On March 25 2013 20:56 dani` wrote: Swarm Hosts are slow, they spawn Locusts relatively slow. Base trades are about killing your opponent's buildings as fast as possible, which can be spread all over the map. Swarm Hosts are obviously not great in a base trade scenario, perhaps only in defending your own base. It's quite obvious which is why MateShade wondered if you were serious. Right, but being able to snipe tech buildings that would grant vision would make SH a good unit to have with your army. Pull drones and you can rebuild your hatch and have it siged up by units the other player is going to struggle to see etc... Assuming you didn't just all in 1000SHs | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
But you shouldn't get into a basetrade situation with Swarmhosts anyway. A few Swarmhost destroy toss harassment and if they go for a basetrade they will lose a base or two, while you simply use your Nydus to pull back, while the Locusts are still attacking. Hmm I now wonder if Locust can enter the Nydus, but hopefully not. And so far I haven't seen someone use a proxy Nexus against Swarmhost. Zergs going SH usually don't scout at all, so it works quiet well. TP in destroy a base or two TP back. On March 25 2013 20:49 bananafone wrote: Boosters are easy to fix. Let it require some amount of the medivac's energy. Preferably so that the energy upgrade from the techlab becomes desireable again. That was the one good thing that came off of the healing buff there was at some point in the beta. Since terrans already had a techlabbed starport it wasn't too uncommon to see one or two banshees or ravens. It created a little diversion. Well the increased healing was a bit of overkill, since the boosters already provide additional healing in most situations. Especially while kiting the boosted Medivacs heal a bit more and use more energy because of that. If you play aggressive you run dry really fast, so energy usage would most likely kill the boosters. Medivacs are pretty costly so you want to keep them and especially since often times you need Vikings later and alot of them. So the energy upgrade is not something useful for Medivacs, I get it quiet regularly when I open Reaper and continue to build my Starport on the techlab and switch it to a Reactor afterwards. It doesn't help you to much at the beginning when there is not enough action to drain your Medivac energy and if you would get it later you already have your Medivacs. It is helpful if you made a mistake and lost your Medivacs though, but the best thing it does is fake your opponent into thinking cloaked Banshees. Giving the Boosters an energy cost would also affect TvP, Feedback would make sure that Medivacs will not make it out again if they dropped, we would again see no more dropping at all going on most likely. And the slow that some seem to favor, would reduce the usage of the boost pretty heavily. Retreating against air units with the boost impossible, more heal while kiting would also not work which helps alot against lategame toss. At the end it would only be nice to save your drops from ground defense or do a suicidal drop or retreat slow unit with your bio. So every change except from a longer cooldown would cut into the possibilities. | ||
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Indolent
Poland137 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On March 25 2013 21:43 Indolent wrote: Here's my idea how to fix boosters: make Medivac unable to load/unload units while it's active. That way they will be used only defensively to escape from enemy. Yeah, I was thinking something along those lines too, it makes sense. It will still be just as mobile, but you will really need to worry when will you use it. | ||
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Anomi
Sweden149 Posts
On March 25 2013 21:32 ZenithM wrote: I see 3 main "issues" (they're not for me, I'm Terran ;D) with the medivac boost: By order of importance: 1) You can retreat way too easily (?). Sometimes I fly a medivac in a protoss base and don't pay much attention, the guy was ready for it and has like 6-7 stalkers just under my medivac but I can still get away with it :D Unless you have phoenix or mutas, you should not be able to kill any medivac at all. 2) You can by-pass static defenses more easily. This, I don't mind so much, if you by-pass 4 cannons with 4 medivacs and the Protoss didn't see it with an observer or something, it's his fault for being lazy with the scouting and army positioning and relying too much on turtling. In my humble opinion, static defenses should not be made to outright kill any drop/harass attempt, just to delay it long enough so that your army can come and deal with the units. Static defenses are boring, anything that lessen their effectiveness is not bad. 3) It effectively decreases the medivac travel time, making Terran able to harass more frequently. This is imo the best medivac buff design-wise. Harassing is cool and should be encouraged, anything that helps players make it more frequent and fast paced is good. So, if Blizzard decides to nerf medivacs, I would like their nerf to address only point (1) and not nerf all 3 points, making medivac play effectively less fun to play and watch. I don't know what kind of nerf would do the trick though... What do you think about "not being able to boost under attack"? Like, if your medivac takes damage, the boost reactor is disabled for 1 or 2 seconds or something (but if you're already boosting, it doesn't cancel the ability)? I think it would be a very acceptable nerf, and it only would address point (1). The temporally decrease in speed i suggested would address point 3 and you will still be able to do point 1 and 2. Only difference is if you are not paying attention to your drop you will be punished. IF you boost to earlier and u meet up with a pack of stalkers and end up running out of the booster time u will probably lose the medivac if you aren’t close to a cliff, IF u are patient instead and save your boost until you see the stalkers you will probably get away without any problem. I rather address point 3 this way instead of blizzard increasing the build time or making the boost ability an upgrade to delay the drop timing so people can set up there defense in time. | ||
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Anomi
Sweden149 Posts
On March 25 2013 21:43 Indolent wrote: Here's my idea how to fix boosters: make Medivac unable to load/unload units while it's active. That way they will be used only defensively to escape from enemy. They will still be able to be used offensive. You just have time to boost to expire around the time u hit the mineral line but that is still a improvement from now. | ||
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bigbadgreen
United States142 Posts
I think the medivac just needs a slight adjustment. I don't want to see it made useless, I think it adds a lot to the game. I don't want Z to be invulnerable to drops. I think maybe a slight additional time on the cooldown would be fine. add like 5 seconds and see what happens. I've seen too many drops move in and be able to safely move out. I also don't think we've seen the last of speedvac issues. I'm waiting to see what can happen if terran starts using speedvac to transport tanks across the map to setup blockades much earlier than they would normally hit. It might give terran a much stronger way to cut off counter attack paths while they push the front. | ||
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VPVanek
Canada238 Posts
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bigbadgreen
United States142 Posts
I think its funny that zerg players are complaining about Speedvacs. You can have overlords in dead space, to spot these drops. It's not always about the peripheral drops. In the game I mentioned the medivacs didn't fly over dead space. They were flying to the top of the ramps leading to the 4th and 5th of Life and forcing him to move his army back and forth. with the DPS of marine/marauder it doesn't take long to snipe a hatch. | ||
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VPVanek
Canada238 Posts
On March 25 2013 22:27 bigbadgreen wrote: It's not always about the peripheral drops. In the game I mentioned the medivacs didn't fly over dead space. They were flying to the top of the ramps leading to the 4th and 5th of Life and forcing him to move his army back and forth. with the DPS of marine/marauder it doesn't take long to snipe a hatch. Creep spread is free vision. Burrow lings around the map to catch drops. I think zerg just needs to adapt.. For once. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
On March 25 2013 22:37 VPVanek wrote: Creep spread is free vision. Burrow lings around the map to catch drops. I think zerg just needs to adapt.. For once. Yeah, because "Terran just needs to adapt.. For once." after the queen patch was absolutely right? You saw what happened. Not that I support medivac nerf, but that argument is poor if anything. | ||
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