EPTI really don't like it
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 405
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epoc
Finland1190 Posts
I really don't like it | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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FreeTossCZComentary
Czech Republic143 Posts
My opinion is lower league (was plat in WoL am unranked now, as I enjoy offracing) protoss-point-of-viewed(well, often offracing), but still I wanna present it. Terran: Reapers + Show Spoiler + I believe that reapers should recieve medivacs ability, while being slowed down to 3.1 ~ 3.3 when normal. Now, for me, they feel very hard to deal, especialy 8-8-8 build, which is quite nightmarish to deal with. Well... I might be wrong and just way too lazy to hunt 4 reapers with probes and stalker/ just drones and lings, while queen on the way... Hellbat + Show Spoiler + When I first saw statistics of Hellbat, I used to believe that this unit would be OP(I still have doubts now) and I still am not sure how it will affect lategames once TvP develops. It is basicaly area attacking zealot, that may be healed by medivac... And dps, at least vs light, is not that diferent from zealot while area attack stands. And it can transform into mobile scout/harasser... Well, its not OP at least when it comes to timing, as it is basicaly T3 unit so I guess I am paranoid about it... Siege tank + Show Spoiler + Maybe, I would like to have small buff for siege tank vs primary targets, if they are armored. I guess +10 dmg vs armored primary target as buff, or +20 as upgrade would not hurt. Dont know if you agree with me though... Widow mine + Show Spoiler + I believe this unit should be splashless, as its splash makes TvZ battles completely RANDOM, which is not good. On the other hand, cooldown could be decreased to 30, or even 25 (or instead of cooldown, there could be range buff by 1), and there would be no need for it being 2 supply. I mean... come on, it costs just little more than burried baneling, and it does not die on impact... + it makes PvT feel like cheesewar, where you have to be gosu to deflect 2 mines drops efeciently. Medivac + Show Spoiler + I dont agree with whole your afterburner on healing bus idea as, I would, as protoss player, trade afterburners for warp field on warp prism... but OK, lets just accept that. However, please support me guys. 4.25 speed is just way too much. It makes medivac basicaly untouchable even for phoenix, which you usually get to repel drops. And that itself is wierd idea. Tune it down to 3.75 please, as way it is now, it feels like going overkill. Thx Blizzard. Raven + Show Spoiler + I believe that Ravens HP should be increased to motivate ravens vs toss, which is not used much as people are scared of feedback killing your raven for free. With 20-30 more Hp, it would not change much except for making Terran use it little more in PvT as - it would still be slow and it would still be 0 armor, making mutas and phoenix packs be basicaly still efecient at hunting it. BC Well... forget it. I was talking about giving BC + dmg vs light while lowering attack speed many times already and nothing changed, I dont think anything will change anymore. Zerg Hydralisk Poor unit. Really, so sad story. I know, it may sound stupid, but why not increase its range against air targets by 1? Mutalisk + Show Spoiler + I dont believe regen buff was good idea. Especially for PvZ, only counter to Mutalisk of player, who is not ass, is phoenix as with storm dodging and regen, his mutas will never die. Speed buff, to make it better, makes microing vs mutas even harder, and new +1 range is not helping much with that as relative speed of mutas paxk and phoenix pack was HALVED... Instead of 0,5 then, you have 0,25 now... With my 20 FpS and slight response delay(like 1/10 sec) I cry whenever I am fighting mutas... If you really want to keep regen in, I recomend slight nerf - trigering regen by condition - either regen only when health 1/2 or less, or only when more than 1/2. In first case, red mutalisk would be able to fast regenerate to somehow-usefull state, but its damage would not be completely nullified. Second case would have be good if you treat your mutalisk pack carefully, but after recieving lot of damage, getting bellow that one half, it would take time to regen... Well, thats my opinion... Swarm host No... just bad design. There is no solution for such rotten idea. Ultralisk Jumping from WoL 15 +20 to 35 was really big step. I think, that even 20+15 or 25(+0) would make ultra quite strong. Ultra switches now are really hard to deal with, and without void rays, I find them just insane... Protoss Well, I dont think I would be able to say much about Toss, as I usually play for them, more than against them, and I am person who really is toss player even from ages of BW so I believe I would not be able to offer useful solutions. So lets take it fast. + Show Spoiler + Tempest with 450 HP for 4 supply is absurdly vital for its purpose - long ranged siege unit. If it was air frontline unit, such amount of HP is understandable. But... if you compare it even with coruptor, who is like air god of damage tanking, you get 50 more HP not only for same supply, but also for same cost. And thing still stands, Tempest was never meant to be in front line... Well, I like range 15, but still, 450 HP... T.T New void ray is insane... if at least that ability decreased dmg vs light at the same time... It should probably also last 5 seconds less. These are my ideas about new unit. If this was tiring, I am sorry, but I had to get it out, as I was holding it in for quite long time. Edit: Forgot the swarm host. I forgot it actually existed. Does not leave strong impression I guess. | ||
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DifuntO
Greece2376 Posts
On March 26 2013 10:01 epoc wrote: I just read this "Siege Tanks no longer require an upgrade in order to enter Siege Mode" I really don't like it Why not? It was supposed to make mech TvP more viable and it really hasn't affected any matchups.People make widow mines to defend against zerg or toss all-ins anyway and i haven't noticed anything weird in TvT. Seems totally fine to me. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On March 26 2013 10:07 DifuntO wrote: Why not? It was supposed to make mech TvP more viable and it really hasn't affected any matchups.People make widow mines to defend against zerg or toss all-ins anyway and i haven't noticed anything weird in TvT. Seems totally fine to me. Rofl ... being able to siege up without an upgrade is NOT making the battle easier and thats where the Siege Tanks totally fail. The upgrade only "solves" early timings. They buffed the Battle Hellion by making it Medivac-healable to make mech more viable. + Show Spoiler + It would be really great if people would stop believing the propaganda which Blizzard disperses and would think about the things they do for themselves first. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On March 26 2013 15:20 Rabiator wrote: Rofl ... being able to siege up without an upgrade is NOT making the battle easier and thats where the Siege Tanks totally fail. The upgrade only "solves" early timings. They buffed the Battle Hellion by making it Medivac-healable to make mech more viable. + Show Spoiler + It would be really great if people would stop believing the propaganda which Blizzard disperses and would think about the things they do for themselves first. I wish people would stop thinking either: a) Blizzard knows a ton more than the community and thinks they are better than the community, so they lie to us about most things in some conspiracy-esque fashion. b) Blizzard is so incompetent. They make awful decisions because the entire company is run by people in the lowest quartile of the population in terms of intelligence. The community knows better than Blizzard all the time. Truthfully, Blizzard knows a little bit more than the community, but not much. They'll make mistakes in community statements or say things that may no longer be true, but they don't outright lie (unless it is the correct PR move during "crisis"). They aren't lying to us when they tell us what they think, but they may not agree with us either. The intended function of no siege upgrade was to improve mech in TvP by making tanks useful by the time any dangerous push came. | ||
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Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
If they does, abusing all-in w/ tanks marines will be seem in many tourney and ladder. | ||
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Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
On March 26 2013 10:06 FreeTossCZComentary wrote: Protoss Well, I dont think I would be able to say much about Toss, as I usually play for them, more than against them, and I am person who really is toss player even from ages of BW so I believe I would not be able to offer useful solutions. So lets take it fast. + Show Spoiler + Tempest with 450 HP for 4 supply is absurdly vital for its purpose - long ranged siege unit. If it was air frontline unit, such amount of HP is understandable. But... if you compare it even with coruptor, who is like air god of damage tanking, you get 50 more HP not only for same supply, but also for same cost. And thing still stands, Tempest was never meant to be in front line... Well, I like range 15, but still, 450 HP... T.T New void ray is insane... if at least that ability decreased dmg vs light at the same time... It should probably also last 5 seconds less. These are my ideas about new unit. If this was tiring, I am sorry, but I had to get it out, as I was holding it in for quite long time. Edit: Forgot the swarm host. I forgot it actually existed. Does not leave strong impression I guess. Blizzard need to re-look at Zealot. The current Zealot between BW and WOL/HOTS. Hellbat/Marines, Banelings/MassLings melts Zealots so easily in early game. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On March 26 2013 17:43 ZenithM wrote: The new cool thing is to call whatever shit you think is overpowered "bad design". The word "design" is somewhat in the thread title, but let's keep it at balance and let Blizzard do their job, which is to design, precisely. I would trust them more on that than a random gold league forum dude. Indeed, the "bad design" is such a overused and misused phrase, same as word gimmick. Half of the people I see talking about how something is "gimmick" don't even know what does it mean. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On March 26 2013 16:50 Kim Hyuna wrote: Blizzard won't allow Seige before upgrade. If they does, abusing all-in w/ tanks marines will be seem in many tourney and ladder. Do we play the same game? This is already implemented in HotS. And while you can debate how good an idea it is, it really doesnt make all-ins alot stronger. Generally you want to attack with 2 tanks anyway, then your attack doesnt come anything faster (only you can start for example +1 earlier for your infantry due to more resources). Sure if you go with a single tank it might be sieged up slightly faster near your opponents base, but nothing drastic. It only makes a significant difference in defense, where your first tank can immediatly siege up on high ground. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
There are other issues to worry about than siege tanks. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Currently I feel like all matchups have a lot of room to be figured out, however two things I think might need looking at. 1) I don't think Medivac speed is too fast, I just think it currently fails to do the job Blizzard wanted it to - keep dropping viable throughout the game. What it currently does is different. Even if terran doesn't drop, the threat of it alone keeps protoss pinned back too hard currently. The problem is not deflecting the drops, it's taking a third base at a reasonable time that allows you to keep up with the terran's macro. So I think the speed boost should be later in the game, maybe at armory. Dropping has always been viable in TvP and TvZ but right now with not just the speed boost but also the added danger of mines, it's a little too scary in my opinion. 2) PvP is a complete mess. I think stalkers should be stronger against void rays and to be honest, I think stalkers should be stronger in general. With the new units, all of which are pretty to really strong against stalkers (hydras, undetected mines, swarm hosts, vipers, even hellbats and medivacs are better vs stalkers than their WoL versions, void rays, tempests), I think an alround buff couldn't hurt them. That's not super necessary right now but I do think it would make the game better overall and protoss a little more stable in the midgame. PvZ all ins might be too strong with that though. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On March 26 2013 18:07 ZenithM wrote: The only thing that could have been troublesome with the no upgrade Siege mode is the 1/1/1 vs Protoss, but the mothership core more than deal with it. That was always the reason to never do anything to boost the siege tank, but it the 1/1/1 siege tank attack vs toss hasnt been that big a deal for toss in a long time, and that is even more true with MsC. Regarding boosting stalkers. Problem is you also boost every blink-all in. And for example it makes also colossi stronger in PvT since vikings are killed faster. And I think myself that toss can deal better with getting a third under speedvac pressure. Most pro matches I saw where that was the case the problem was mainly a terran bio army near his base. Then if he would move out the terran can doom drop his base, or he splits his army and cant attack the terran anymore with his main army. But why not for example send a warp prism to the terran base and drop units there + warp in more? Sure you still split your army, but now your main army only needs to defend your base. And the terran is most likely forced to retreat with at least part of his army. As a funny comparison I looked at speed prismvs speedvac. Of course they are hard to compare, speedvac is better massable if you go bio and allows for less reaction time for the opponent and doesnt require an upgrade. But the speedprism has a much higher sustained speed, can also warp in units and is stronger. And then cost wise you can have a long discussion which is cheaper. Anyway some people suggested that speedvac should take more damage (which kinda negates the whole point of speedvacs), so I decided to calculate which one comes further while under attack: the speed prism wins that. Its extra HP more than compensates for its slower speed. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On March 26 2013 18:08 Dalavita wrote: No upgrade required for siege tanks is one of the most minor changes this expansion. I thought it would strengthen the marine tank push, but it hasn't buffed the timing at least, maybe the transition by 100 gas/mins. There are other issues to worry about than siege tanks. Photon overcharge pretty much is the nail in the coffin for 1-1-1 and Tank/Marine pushes against Protoss. Against Zerg early Tank/Marine timings still autolose to mass speedling. The only offensive use is for TvT and there I can say, it's quite a bit annoying to deal with at times, because it makes the buildorder war even more hard to read. On the other hand it's great for defending Zerg and Protoss All-Ins, because you can basically add sieged Tanks on the fly. | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On March 26 2013 16:36 aksfjh wrote: I wish people would stop thinking either: a) Blizzard knows a ton more than the community and thinks they are better than the community, so they lie to us about most things in some conspiracy-esque fashion. b) Blizzard is so incompetent. They make awful decisions because the entire company is run by people in the lowest quartile of the population in terms of intelligence. The community knows better than Blizzard all the time. Truthfully, Blizzard knows a little bit more than the community, but not much. They'll make mistakes in community statements or say things that may no longer be true, but they don't outright lie (unless it is the correct PR move during "crisis"). They aren't lying to us when they tell us what they think, but they may not agree with us either. The intended function of no siege upgrade was to improve mech in TvP by making tanks useful by the time any dangerous push came. Really? Blizzard does NOT outright lie? I am happy that Dustin Browder isnt part of Blizzard anymore then, because he claimed they wanted to make mech more viable in TvP and they didnt really do anything to achieve that. So either they are incometent or he lied ... your choice. Honestly Dustin has been doing a lot of misinformation by saying stuff like "we dont like deathballs either" but also saying stuff like "players WANT the deathball because it maximizes damage". Instead of posting your useless "oh you are wrong, because you are saying that Blizzard is incompetent" you should try arguing with my point ... which was that "no siege upgrade doesnt help in a TvP mech fight". + Show Spoiler + If you are offended by the spoiler comment I made above it probably applies especially to you ... especially if you dont even bother to argue with my reasoning. | ||
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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