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On March 26 2013 19:07 archonOOid wrote:
I think terran could use a buff against protoss. As it is right now all protoss has to do is minimize the marine count in the early game to gain access to terran worker line and tech. Protoss players can with ease kill of mineral based units with msc, gateway units and oracles.
How do you minimize the marine count in the earlygame? You say it like its simple, when in fact mass marines stomps all protoss pre colossi.
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On March 26 2013 19:17 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:07 archonOOid wrote:
I think terran could use a buff against protoss. As it is right now all protoss has to do is minimize the marine count in the early game to gain access to terran worker line and tech. Protoss players can with ease kill of mineral based units with msc, gateway units and oracles. How do you minimize the marine count in the earlygame? You say it like its simple, when in fact mass marines stomps all protoss pre colossi.
Pre-stim, microed stalkers beat marines, but I get what you're saying. Terran indeed doesn't have problems with Protoss atm.
Put your marines in bunkers and you don't lose them :D
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Austria24422 Posts
On March 26 2013 19:07 archonOOid wrote:
I think terran could use a buff against protoss. As it is right now all protoss has to do is minimize the marine count in the early game to gain access to terran worker line and tech. Protoss players can with ease kill of mineral based units with msc, gateway units and oracles.
If you get gateway units in your mineral lines, that's a different story. If MSC and oracles give you trouble, scout better and make a turret. You'll find that oracles fare extremely poorly against static defense. Oracles do very well vs small groups of marines but you should be able to protect those with bunkers or by keeping them close to a turret. Once stim is ready, oracles die to marines pretty quickly.
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Reaper needs some late game upgrade imo. Maybe one that lets combat drugs regeneration work all the time, instead when off battle?
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On March 26 2013 19:35 Tritanis wrote:
Reaper needs some late game upgrade imo. Maybe one that lets combat drugs regeneration work all the time, instead when off battle?
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 26 2013 19:44 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:35 Tritanis wrote:
Reaper needs some late game upgrade imo. Maybe one that lets combat drugs regeneration work all the time, instead when off battle? + Show Spoiler +
Yeah, so they can break the speed of light, huh? Would be too good vs lings I guess, the hellbats already take them out without effort.
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I've always thought that the WoL Campaign upgrade for the Reaper might be something for the lategame.
It improved the range and damage of the Reaper but nothing else.
Lategame Reapers just die to so many things whilst doing so little damage, maybe they'll stay alive more easily (and you can use them more freely) if they have range 6 after an upgrade?
The damage part of the upgrade would either be against +Light so worker harass doesn't take hours or maybe have the upgrade give the Reaper the anti-building attack to snipe tech.
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On March 26 2013 19:22 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:07 archonOOid wrote:
I think terran could use a buff against protoss. As it is right now all protoss has to do is minimize the marine count in the early game to gain access to terran worker line and tech. Protoss players can with ease kill of mineral based units with msc, gateway units and oracles. If you get gateway units in your mineral lines, that's a different story. If MSC and oracles give you trouble, scout better and make a turret. You'll find that oracles fare extremely poorly against static defense. Oracles do very well vs small groups of marines but you should be able to protect those with bunkers or by keeping them close to a turret. Once stim is ready, oracles die to marines pretty quickly.
I play as protoss and even if terran goes for a turret it means that they investing in mineral defense early on that can only mitigate the oracle defense so much. Right now i'm at 90% winrate against terran and at the diamond/masters level but perhaps it's only a problem in the lower leagues. Often you are able to gain access to the terran natural as well because terrans has to spread their marines thin across two bases. Oracle are said to be shut down with a turret at each mineral line but I think that the terrans are set back too much by that.
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I just don't think every unit is supposed to be useful at every stage of the game. Reaper is an early game unit, and if it is effective enough early on, then the unit has a role in game. WoL reaper after nerf sucked only because it was not that good even in early game where it was supposed to work. As long as HotS reaper has a job, I think it's fine.
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On March 26 2013 20:10 Orek wrote:
I just don't think every unit is supposed to be useful at every stage of the game. Reaper is an early game unit, and if it is effective enough early on, then the unit has a role in game. WoL reaper after nerf sucked only because it was not that good even in early game where it was supposed to work. As long as HotS reaper has a job, I think it's fine.
HOTS reaper has an amazing place in the game as a scout. Having all of that scouting information and being able to save those scans and use that CC energy on MULES or heaven forbid depots is invaluable.
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On March 26 2013 19:35 Tritanis wrote:
Reaper needs some late game upgrade imo. Maybe one that lets combat drugs regeneration work all the time, instead when off battle?
Why do reapers need to be useable late game? Not every unit needs to usable every single stage of the game.
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On March 26 2013 19:20 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:17 Dalavita wrote:On March 26 2013 19:07 archonOOid wrote:
I think terran could use a buff against protoss. As it is right now all protoss has to do is minimize the marine count in the early game to gain access to terran worker line and tech. Protoss players can with ease kill of mineral based units with msc, gateway units and oracles. How do you minimize the marine count in the earlygame? You say it like its simple, when in fact mass marines stomps all protoss pre colossi. Pre-stim, microed stalkers beat marines, but I get what you're saying. Terran indeed doesn't have problems with Protoss atm. Put your marines in bunkers and you don't lose them :D
Yes those metal things called bunkers are not to bad, and the best thing is they are like mini-banks, they have a better rate of return than the banks in Cyprus 
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On March 26 2013 19:01 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 16:36 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2013 15:20 Rabiator wrote:On March 26 2013 10:07 DifuntO wrote:On March 26 2013 10:01 epoc wrote:
I just read this "Siege Tanks no longer require an upgrade in order to enter Siege Mode"
I really don't like it Why not? It was supposed to make mech TvP more viable and it really hasn't affected any matchups.People make widow mines to defend against zerg or toss all-ins anyway and i haven't noticed anything weird in TvT. Seems totally fine to me. Rofl ... being able to siege up without an upgrade is NOT making the battle easier and thats where the Siege Tanks totally fail. The upgrade only "solves" early timings. They buffed the Battle Hellion by making it Medivac-healable to make mech more viable. + Show Spoiler +It would be really great if people would stop believing the propaganda which Blizzard disperses and would think about the things they do for themselves first. I wish people would stop thinking either: a) Blizzard knows a ton more than the community and thinks they are better than the community, so they lie to us about most things in some conspiracy-esque fashion. b) Blizzard is so incompetent. They make awful decisions because the entire company is run by people in the lowest quartile of the population in terms of intelligence. The community knows better than Blizzard all the time. Truthfully, Blizzard knows a little bit more than the community, but not much. They'll make mistakes in community statements or say things that may no longer be true, but they don't outright lie (unless it is the correct PR move during "crisis"). They aren't lying to us when they tell us what they think, but they may not agree with us either. The intended function of no siege upgrade was to improve mech in TvP by making tanks useful by the time any dangerous push came. Really? Blizzard does NOT outright lie? I am happy that Dustin Browder isnt part of Blizzard anymore then, because he claimed they wanted to make mech more viable in TvP and they didnt really do anything to achieve that. So either they are incometent or he lied ... your choice. Honestly Dustin has been doing a lot of misinformation by saying stuff like "we dont like deathballs either" but also saying stuff like "players WANT the deathball because it maximizes damage". Instead of posting your useless "oh you are wrong, because you are saying that Blizzard is incompetent" you should try arguing with my point ... which was that "no siege upgrade doesnt help in a TvP mech fight". + Show Spoiler +If you are offended by the spoiler comment I made above it probably applies especially to you ... especially if you dont even bother to argue with my reasoning. ...Is this a serious post?
Mech in WoL had a lot of issues simply getting off the ground due to Protoss hitting before siege was ready. The siege-without-upgrade change was absolutely geared at fixing mech TvP. Additionally, the hellbat provides a meatshield that benefits from upgrades that was lacking in mech, and also a way of dealing with mass zealot remaxes. As it so happens, players have been mixing their new toys with bio instead of mech, and Protoss received new toys that help deal with mech as well, but that doesn't change the fact that TvP mech buffs were made. It's up to the players to utilize those buffs.
Also, your point on Dustin Browder and deathballs is completely disingenuous. He doesn't like deathballs. Casual players like deathballs, because they're simple and easy to operate with. Pro players don't like deathballs. And guess what? In HotS, multi-pronged action has been the norm in upper-level games.
Which, of course, you would know if you played and/or followed Heart of the Swarm. Which you don't, by your own admission.
What the hell are you doing in these threads again?
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HOTS is a dream so far, so much closer to the positional style of BW. It's not perfect yet, but they are making positive progress.
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On March 27 2013 00:35 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 26 2013 16:36 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2013 15:20 Rabiator wrote:On March 26 2013 10:07 DifuntO wrote:On March 26 2013 10:01 epoc wrote:
I just read this "Siege Tanks no longer require an upgrade in order to enter Siege Mode"
I really don't like it Why not? It was supposed to make mech TvP more viable and it really hasn't affected any matchups.People make widow mines to defend against zerg or toss all-ins anyway and i haven't noticed anything weird in TvT. Seems totally fine to me. Rofl ... being able to siege up without an upgrade is NOT making the battle easier and thats where the Siege Tanks totally fail. The upgrade only "solves" early timings. They buffed the Battle Hellion by making it Medivac-healable to make mech more viable. + Show Spoiler +It would be really great if people would stop believing the propaganda which Blizzard disperses and would think about the things they do for themselves first. I wish people would stop thinking either: a) Blizzard knows a ton more than the community and thinks they are better than the community, so they lie to us about most things in some conspiracy-esque fashion. b) Blizzard is so incompetent. They make awful decisions because the entire company is run by people in the lowest quartile of the population in terms of intelligence. The community knows better than Blizzard all the time. Truthfully, Blizzard knows a little bit more than the community, but not much. They'll make mistakes in community statements or say things that may no longer be true, but they don't outright lie (unless it is the correct PR move during "crisis"). They aren't lying to us when they tell us what they think, but they may not agree with us either. The intended function of no siege upgrade was to improve mech in TvP by making tanks useful by the time any dangerous push came. Really? Blizzard does NOT outright lie? I am happy that Dustin Browder isnt part of Blizzard anymore then, because he claimed they wanted to make mech more viable in TvP and they didnt really do anything to achieve that. So either they are incometent or he lied ... your choice. Honestly Dustin has been doing a lot of misinformation by saying stuff like "we dont like deathballs either" but also saying stuff like "players WANT the deathball because it maximizes damage". Instead of posting your useless "oh you are wrong, because you are saying that Blizzard is incompetent" you should try arguing with my point ... which was that "no siege upgrade doesnt help in a TvP mech fight". + Show Spoiler +If you are offended by the spoiler comment I made above it probably applies especially to you ... especially if you dont even bother to argue with my reasoning. ...Is this a serious post?
Tbh in WoL I exclusively meched vs toss, and also in HotS I try to do it. But even after surviving whatever all-in the toss is using imo it is still nerfed compared to WoL. Maybe in the future I will change my opinion, but for now I think it is easier to mech in WoL than in HotS. Sure mech had some boosts, but toss had a load of counter-mech boosts.
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On March 26 2013 19:01 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 16:36 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2013 15:20 Rabiator wrote:On March 26 2013 10:07 DifuntO wrote:On March 26 2013 10:01 epoc wrote:
I just read this "Siege Tanks no longer require an upgrade in order to enter Siege Mode"
I really don't like it Why not? It was supposed to make mech TvP more viable and it really hasn't affected any matchups.People make widow mines to defend against zerg or toss all-ins anyway and i haven't noticed anything weird in TvT. Seems totally fine to me. Rofl ... being able to siege up without an upgrade is NOT making the battle easier and thats where the Siege Tanks totally fail. The upgrade only "solves" early timings. They buffed the Battle Hellion by making it Medivac-healable to make mech more viable. + Show Spoiler +It would be really great if people would stop believing the propaganda which Blizzard disperses and would think about the things they do for themselves first. I wish people would stop thinking either: a) Blizzard knows a ton more than the community and thinks they are better than the community, so they lie to us about most things in some conspiracy-esque fashion. b) Blizzard is so incompetent. They make awful decisions because the entire company is run by people in the lowest quartile of the population in terms of intelligence. The community knows better than Blizzard all the time. Truthfully, Blizzard knows a little bit more than the community, but not much. They'll make mistakes in community statements or say things that may no longer be true, but they don't outright lie (unless it is the correct PR move during "crisis"). They aren't lying to us when they tell us what they think, but they may not agree with us either. The intended function of no siege upgrade was to improve mech in TvP by making tanks useful by the time any dangerous push came. Really? Blizzard does NOT outright lie? I am happy that Dustin Browder isnt part of Blizzard anymore then, because he claimed they wanted to make mech more viable in TvP and they didnt really do anything to achieve that. So either they are incometent or he lied ... your choice. Honestly Dustin has been doing a lot of misinformation by saying stuff like "we dont like deathballs either" but also saying stuff like "players WANT the deathball because it maximizes damage". Instead of posting your useless "oh you are wrong, because you are saying that Blizzard is incompetent" you should try arguing with my point ... which was that "no siege upgrade doesnt help in a TvP mech fight". + Show Spoiler +If you are offended by the spoiler comment I made above it probably applies especially to you ... especially if you dont even bother to argue with my reasoning.
They specifically stated the reason for the siege tank buff was to make mech more viable. It didn't work out as well as many of us hoped, and probably not as well as they hoped. They have said many times that their definition of "making mech viable" is closer to making the factory useful instead of a stepping stone to starport tech and an expensive scout. The removal of the upgrade did that.
And there's a difference between not meeting expectations and lying. Whether they are Blizzard expectations or community expectations, that's what happened. They didn't feed us some bullshit about trying to make mech more viable and then do NOTHING about it. They tried many ideas, but came up short in many ways in the end. Take that as you will.
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On March 27 2013 05:31 sAxiS wrote:
HOTS is a dream so far, so much closer to the positional style of BW. It's not perfect yet, but they are making positive progress.
Yeah bro, nothing screams POSITIONAL like medivacs teleporting around the map with afterburners.
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On March 27 2013 05:31 sAxiS wrote:
HOTS is a dream so far, so much closer to the positional style of BW. It's not perfect yet, but they are making positive progress.
agree. the "balance feel" is much better than WoL. They abandonned the "terrible damage" thingy somewhat. reapers and mines are strong, but not devastating and you can counter them in a reasonable way. Zerg feels much better to play now compared to Wol, even though they got somewhat nerfed. Zerg has more tech options, so it is not that hard of a pressure to play super risky-greedy in order to win.
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On March 27 2013 06:04 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 05:31 sAxiS wrote:
HOTS is a dream so far, so much closer to the positional style of BW. It's not perfect yet, but they are making positive progress. Yeah bro, nothing screams POSITIONAL like medivacs teleporting around the map with afterburners.
Because that is the only thing added in the expansion and nothing else...
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On March 27 2013 05:57 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 26 2013 16:36 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2013 15:20 Rabiator wrote:On March 26 2013 10:07 DifuntO wrote:On March 26 2013 10:01 epoc wrote:
I just read this "Siege Tanks no longer require an upgrade in order to enter Siege Mode"
I really don't like it Why not? It was supposed to make mech TvP more viable and it really hasn't affected any matchups.People make widow mines to defend against zerg or toss all-ins anyway and i haven't noticed anything weird in TvT. Seems totally fine to me. Rofl ... being able to siege up without an upgrade is NOT making the battle easier and thats where the Siege Tanks totally fail. The upgrade only "solves" early timings. They buffed the Battle Hellion by making it Medivac-healable to make mech more viable. + Show Spoiler +It would be really great if people would stop believing the propaganda which Blizzard disperses and would think about the things they do for themselves first. I wish people would stop thinking either: a) Blizzard knows a ton more than the community and thinks they are better than the community, so they lie to us about most things in some conspiracy-esque fashion. b) Blizzard is so incompetent. They make awful decisions because the entire company is run by people in the lowest quartile of the population in terms of intelligence. The community knows better than Blizzard all the time. Truthfully, Blizzard knows a little bit more than the community, but not much. They'll make mistakes in community statements or say things that may no longer be true, but they don't outright lie (unless it is the correct PR move during "crisis"). They aren't lying to us when they tell us what they think, but they may not agree with us either. The intended function of no siege upgrade was to improve mech in TvP by making tanks useful by the time any dangerous push came. Really? Blizzard does NOT outright lie? I am happy that Dustin Browder isnt part of Blizzard anymore then, because he claimed they wanted to make mech more viable in TvP and they didnt really do anything to achieve that. So either they are incometent or he lied ... your choice. Honestly Dustin has been doing a lot of misinformation by saying stuff like "we dont like deathballs either" but also saying stuff like "players WANT the deathball because it maximizes damage". Instead of posting your useless "oh you are wrong, because you are saying that Blizzard is incompetent" you should try arguing with my point ... which was that "no siege upgrade doesnt help in a TvP mech fight". + Show Spoiler +If you are offended by the spoiler comment I made above it probably applies especially to you ... especially if you dont even bother to argue with my reasoning. They specifically stated the reason for the siege tank buff was to make mech more viable. It didn't work out as well as many of us hoped, and probably not as well as they hoped. They have said many times that their definition of "making mech viable" is closer to making the factory useful instead of a stepping stone to starport tech and an expensive scout. The removal of the upgrade did that. And there's a difference between not meeting expectations and lying. Whether they are Blizzard expectations or community expectations, that's what happened. They didn't feed us some bullshit about trying to make mech more viable and then do NOTHING about it. They tried many ideas, but came up short in many ways in the end. Take that as you will.
Both you and Rampancy said exactly what I was thinking. Rabiator's post was really little more than senseless Blizzard/Browder bashing.
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EPT
