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Seems to me that the infestor/BL problem can be solved if you just increase the supply of BL to 6 and perhaps the infestor to 3 supply.
Or buff the raven, I like that better.
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On November 01 2012 00:34 WeRRa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:29 sieksdekciw wrote:
I seriously think the balance sheet showing 50% is not what we should strive for.
We should strive for balance at the skill level. That is a very hard task since skill is very hard to measure. A relative measure of skill is how easy it is to do something vs how effective it is. Here shines the glaring (imbalanced?) discrepancy between terran and zerg/toss. Terran CAN beat zerg and toss, but it requires a disproportional amount of effort as compared to the zerg/toss player. Let's review the most common actions in common compositions today.
Zerg (Muta Ling Bling) vs Terran (Marine Thor Tank)
Zerg has to:
1. Move lings, Move blings, Move mutas.
2. Once the appropriate amount of surround is done, forget about the lings, follow big clumps of marines with blings
3. Magic box mutas and leave them be, if they clump, try to make them not clump
Terran has to:
1. Siege tanks, focus clumps of blings
2. Stim and spread marines
3. Stutter left and right if applicable, additional spread
In both cases, both compositions are fairly micro intensive, while it might be slightly harder for terran as it requires more effort to split than to forget about your lings. But all in all we can clearly see how both compositions require some effort to play decently with. So, this makes up for interesting matches as viewers can appreciate the skill in both sides. Sadly, zergs rarely favor the muta ling bling composition nowadays.
Moving on to
Zerg (Cracklings Infestor Ultra) vs Terran(Marine Marauder Tank Medivac)
Zerg has to:
1. A move, while keeping the ultras together with lings so lings draw marauder fire
2. Use fungals
Terran has to:
1. Split, stim, stutter
2. Can use the tanks in front to kill extended infestors (in which case he loses his tanks) or siege them and focus fire infestors
We are now closing the inherent problem which is it is far harder to dodge a spell than it is to place it properly. The 9 range fungal as well it being instant and preventing micro for 4 seconds attribute to the amount of effort for the zerg in that engagement far less than terran.
And we are on to the most common combination
Zerg (Ling Infestor BroodLord Corruptor) vs Terran (Marine, Tank, Viking)
Zerg has to.
1. A move brood lords and corruptors
2. Don't overextend with infestors and try to hit big blobs of vikings or marines, and optionally put an infested terran or two
Terran has to:
1. Split marines
2. Split vikings
3. Siege tanks when infestors are in range and try to snipe them, in other case, don't siege the tanks as they will wipe out the marines
4. Continue kiting Corruptors with Vikings WHILE stutter stepping marines and watching not to get fungalled.
If you play a micro battle and try to use the above combinations, you will see that it requires significantly less effort to control the zerg army than the terran army.
Consider other things:
Terran's two marines can't beat a zealot if unmicroed, hell, they don't even come close
Terran's hellions, if unmicroed will die to a moved lings
Vikings have to kite corruptors and avoid fungals. Corruptors have to just attack the vikings.
Zerg could split their banes to an extent to prevent siege splash. Zerg doesn't do it since it doesn't really matter as their army is that much better. If terran doesn't dodge blings/fungals/storms, he is dead.
Basically we see that terran units are worth very little if left to fend for themselves compared to their zerg/toss counterparts. It would be nice if Blizzard either increases the micro requirement on zerg/toss players (good) or add a move units to terran (bad).
Bottom line, in my opinion, If the amount of effort required to win as terran is disproportionately more than to win as zerg and toss, even if the win percentages show 50%, the game has some inherent balance problems.
100% agreed.
Nothing more to say
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On November 05 2012 08:38 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 08:22 NeMaTo wrote:On November 05 2012 08:14 KentHenry wrote:
FUCK SC2 and it's imbalance, Terran late game blows, Flash should not have been 4-0 that easily when he 2-0 the guy an hour earlier. FUCK THIS GAME. Sry just needed to vent. Infestors are so blatantly imbalanced it's funny Blizzard doesn't do anything. And this is a minor problem, but I never understood why borrowed banelings do so much damage. Do something clever like "when borrowed, baneling explosions do half damage" etc to make it more fair. It's so anticlimatic watching an intense, even game suddenly get out of control in favor of one player just because a couple of hidden banelings that cost about 100~150 resources... Blizzard see's this imbalance and they're trying to fix these problems with HOTS. But my question to them is "are we really supposed to wait until HOTS to address this?" Zergs are absolutely dominating the scene winning major tournament after major tournament. When Nerchio was asked in IEM, "Q: why are we seeing so many new top zergs emerging. A: I'm pretty sure it b/c of "patched zerg"; especially with the queen and overlord buff..." So are we supposed to wait for Blizzard to throw darts on a board hoping something sticks with HOTS? If nothing changes I think many players will leave the scene before Blizzard ever releases HOTS - I mean people use this game for their livelihood. Many are already leaving as is....
Agreed man, thats what I'm thinking too. Either hurry up and get HOTS ready or do something about this in WOL PLEASE!
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a full energy infestor does so much guaranteed damage with fungals compared to a raven with one hunter seeker
it just depresses me to no end now
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Without disrespecting any players of any races, I honestly believe WoL is at its worst state in terms of balance since the days of speed reapers before factory (and even depot). I think I'm being overly optimistic in hoping for one more balance patch before HotS hits though.
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On November 05 2012 10:28 FinestHour wrote:
a full energy infestor does so much guaranteed damage with fungals compared to a raven with one hunter seeker
it just depresses me to no end now
As a zerg I can see the argument for increasing energy cost of infestor spells. That being said I would prefer they look at IT vs. Fungal for that increase. Chain fungals while amazing, are a lynch pin of ZvX and risking breaking Zerg all around it is not worth the potential consequences of the current energy costs.
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37 infestors in one game ----> is that okay blizzard?
Taeja struggles SOOOOO hard to barely win an engagement lategame v Rain, both floating 2500 min 1000 gas, rain warps in 48 supply worth of zealots in 1 second ----> is that okay blizzard?
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On November 05 2012 10:44 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 10:28 FinestHour wrote:
a full energy infestor does so much guaranteed damage with fungals compared to a raven with one hunter seeker
it just depresses me to no end now As a zerg I can see the argument for increasing energy cost of infestor spells. That being said I would prefer they look at IT vs. Fungal for that increase. Chain fungals while amazing, are a lynch pin of ZvX and risking breaking Zerg all around it is not worth the potential consequences of the current energy costs.
You're race is fundamentally broken if it has to rely on a godly spell like fungal that is broken as fuck in so many ways it hurts my head. Do I think fungal is necessary for Z to win? Yes. Do I think it's balance that when properly used, Infestors basically rape everything on the map with the proper support units? No.
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rain warps in 48 supply worth of zealots in 1 second ----> is that okay blizzard?
That's 96 clicks a second, I'd say he deserves the win at that point
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On November 05 2012 09:52 Imzoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:34 WeRRa wrote:On November 01 2012 00:29 sieksdekciw wrote:
I seriously think the balance sheet showing 50% is not what we should strive for.
We should strive for balance at the skill level. That is a very hard task since skill is very hard to measure. A relative measure of skill is how easy it is to do something vs how effective it is. Here shines the glaring (imbalanced?) discrepancy between terran and zerg/toss. Terran CAN beat zerg and toss, but it requires a disproportional amount of effort as compared to the zerg/toss player. Let's review the most common actions in common compositions today.
Zerg (Muta Ling Bling) vs Terran (Marine Thor Tank)
Zerg has to:
1. Move lings, Move blings, Move mutas.
2. Once the appropriate amount of surround is done, forget about the lings, follow big clumps of marines with blings
3. Magic box mutas and leave them be, if they clump, try to make them not clump
Terran has to:
1. Siege tanks, focus clumps of blings
2. Stim and spread marines
3. Stutter left and right if applicable, additional spread
In both cases, both compositions are fairly micro intensive, while it might be slightly harder for terran as it requires more effort to split than to forget about your lings. But all in all we can clearly see how both compositions require some effort to play decently with. So, this makes up for interesting matches as viewers can appreciate the skill in both sides. Sadly, zergs rarely favor the muta ling bling composition nowadays.
Moving on to
Zerg (Cracklings Infestor Ultra) vs Terran(Marine Marauder Tank Medivac)
Zerg has to:
1. A move, while keeping the ultras together with lings so lings draw marauder fire
2. Use fungals
Terran has to:
1. Split, stim, stutter
2. Can use the tanks in front to kill extended infestors (in which case he loses his tanks) or siege them and focus fire infestors
We are now closing the inherent problem which is it is far harder to dodge a spell than it is to place it properly. The 9 range fungal as well it being instant and preventing micro for 4 seconds attribute to the amount of effort for the zerg in that engagement far less than terran.
And we are on to the most common combination
Zerg (Ling Infestor BroodLord Corruptor) vs Terran (Marine, Tank, Viking)
Zerg has to.
1. A move brood lords and corruptors
2. Don't overextend with infestors and try to hit big blobs of vikings or marines, and optionally put an infested terran or two
Terran has to:
1. Split marines
2. Split vikings
3. Siege tanks when infestors are in range and try to snipe them, in other case, don't siege the tanks as they will wipe out the marines
4. Continue kiting Corruptors with Vikings WHILE stutter stepping marines and watching not to get fungalled.
If you play a micro battle and try to use the above combinations, you will see that it requires significantly less effort to control the zerg army than the terran army.
Consider other things:
Terran's two marines can't beat a zealot if unmicroed, hell, they don't even come close
Terran's hellions, if unmicroed will die to a moved lings
Vikings have to kite corruptors and avoid fungals. Corruptors have to just attack the vikings.
Zerg could split their banes to an extent to prevent siege splash. Zerg doesn't do it since it doesn't really matter as their army is that much better. If terran doesn't dodge blings/fungals/storms, he is dead.
Basically we see that terran units are worth very little if left to fend for themselves compared to their zerg/toss counterparts. It would be nice if Blizzard either increases the micro requirement on zerg/toss players (good) or add a move units to terran (bad).
Bottom line, in my opinion, If the amount of effort required to win as terran is disproportionately more than to win as zerg and toss, even if the win percentages show 50%, the game has some inherent balance problems.
100% agreed. Nothing more to say
One thing i will add to the original post, which there are many critics, especially DeMuslim, is production units come out of hatcherys pre-hotkeyed once they spawn. Meaning if I select 30 larva on hotkey "1," once the unit spawns it comes out prehotkeyed. No other race has this potential: Once units come out of a Barracks or gateway, they have to be selected by the user and put on a proper hotkey. This is twice the work and there is no clear reason for this design except requires more apm for T and P.
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On November 05 2012 11:08 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 10:44 ThomasjServo wrote:On November 05 2012 10:28 FinestHour wrote:
a full energy infestor does so much guaranteed damage with fungals compared to a raven with one hunter seeker
it just depresses me to no end now As a zerg I can see the argument for increasing energy cost of infestor spells. That being said I would prefer they look at IT vs. Fungal for that increase. Chain fungals while amazing, are a lynch pin of ZvX and risking breaking Zerg all around it is not worth the potential consequences of the current energy costs. You're race is fundamentally broken if it has to rely on a godly spell like fungal that is broken as fuck in so many ways it hurts my head. Do I think fungal is necessary for Z to win? Yes. Do I think it's balance that when properly used, Infestors basically rape everything on the map with the proper support units? No.
I never made the claim fungal was fundamentally balanced, I am merely suggesting that the energy be adjusted to reflect the value of the spell in question. IT are as deadly as fungal when used offensively rather that using the root to stem the tide of enemy units.
I think that fungal as a root is interesting, though it rewards relatively lazy play from Zerg. That being said, I also feel like High Templar and Ghosts are still under explored as far as mana burn builds goes in comparison with DPS. No need to get angry at the current state of things, we are here to have a thoughtful discussion on the matter. I am simply positing that Infested Terran cost more mana; might be interesting to have them cost some amount of supply as well. I recognize that having a food cost for a free unit is wonky to say the least but it is an idea.
I would also support a rework of the geometry of the Infestor to make it more vulnerable to AOE burns like EMP, allowing for more than 1 or 2 to be caught in the spell's AOE.
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On November 05 2012 11:17 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 11:08 superstartran wrote:On November 05 2012 10:44 ThomasjServo wrote:On November 05 2012 10:28 FinestHour wrote:
a full energy infestor does so much guaranteed damage with fungals compared to a raven with one hunter seeker
it just depresses me to no end now As a zerg I can see the argument for increasing energy cost of infestor spells. That being said I would prefer they look at IT vs. Fungal for that increase. Chain fungals while amazing, are a lynch pin of ZvX and risking breaking Zerg all around it is not worth the potential consequences of the current energy costs. You're race is fundamentally broken if it has to rely on a godly spell like fungal that is broken as fuck in so many ways it hurts my head. Do I think fungal is necessary for Z to win? Yes. Do I think it's balance that when properly used, Infestors basically rape everything on the map with the proper support units? No. I never made the claim fungal was fundamentally balanced, I am merely suggesting that the energy be adjusted to reflect the value of the spell in question. IT are as deadly as fungal when used offensively rather that using the root to stem the tide of enemy units. I think that fungal as a root is interesting, though it rewards relatively lazy play from Zerg. That being said, I also feel like High Templar and Ghosts are still under explored as far as mana burn builds goes in comparison with DPS. No need to get angry at the current state of things, we are here to have a thoughtful discussion on the matter. I am simply positing that Infested Terran cost more mana; might be interesting to have them cost some amount of supply as well. I recognize that having a food cost for a free unit is wonky to say the least but it is an idea. I would also support a rework of the geometry of the Infestor to make it more vulnerable to AOE burns like EMP, allowing for more than 1 or 2 to be caught in the spell's AOE.
It seem to me that in many cases IT's were a much bigger problem then fungal this past MLG. They are both really, really good spells. At least one needs a nerf because Infestors are currently just all around good units good in any situation and you can't make too many of them. I hope they are reworked in HotS
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On November 05 2012 11:10 Aratan wrote:Show nested quote + rain warps in 48 supply worth of zealots in 1 second ----> is that okay blizzard? That's 96 clicks a second, I'd say he deserves the win at that point
1 second is obviously an exaggeration...but your math is false. It's 25 clicks in a second (1W 24Z)
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Remove all micro-limiting abilities and we'll have the potential to have a good game.
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On November 05 2012 11:17 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 11:08 superstartran wrote:On November 05 2012 10:44 ThomasjServo wrote:On November 05 2012 10:28 FinestHour wrote:
a full energy infestor does so much guaranteed damage with fungals compared to a raven with one hunter seeker
it just depresses me to no end now As a zerg I can see the argument for increasing energy cost of infestor spells. That being said I would prefer they look at IT vs. Fungal for that increase. Chain fungals while amazing, are a lynch pin of ZvX and risking breaking Zerg all around it is not worth the potential consequences of the current energy costs. You're race is fundamentally broken if it has to rely on a godly spell like fungal that is broken as fuck in so many ways it hurts my head. Do I think fungal is necessary for Z to win? Yes. Do I think it's balance that when properly used, Infestors basically rape everything on the map with the proper support units? No. I never made the claim fungal was fundamentally balanced, I am merely suggesting that the energy be adjusted to reflect the value of the spell in question. IT are as deadly as fungal when used offensively rather that using the root to stem the tide of enemy units. I think that fungal as a root is interesting, though it rewards relatively lazy play from Zerg. That being said, I also feel like High Templar and Ghosts are still under explored as far as mana burn builds goes in comparison with DPS. No need to get angry at the current state of things, we are here to have a thoughtful discussion on the matter. I am simply positing that Infested Terran cost more mana; might be interesting to have them cost some amount of supply as well. I recognize that having a food cost for a free unit is wonky to say the least but it is an idea. I would also support a rework of the geometry of the Infestor to make it more vulnerable to AOE burns like EMP, allowing for more than 1 or 2 to be caught in the spell's AOE.
You're not solving the issue. You're just putting a bandaid on it. Z's issue is that they are too weak without Infestors, and any significant nerfs (which you are suggesting) would just hurt it.
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On November 05 2012 09:51 RavenLoud wrote:
Seems to me that the infestor/BL problem can be solved if you just increase the supply of BL to 6 and perhaps the infestor to 3 supply.
Or buff the raven, I like that better.
But how would that fare against Protoss? Not too well I think...
I think the best thing to do is to nerf Fungal growth by reducing movement and not freezing them, and Infested Terrans. Why is it that they do more damage than non-stimmed Marines?!
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Man there are some jaded players in here. I wish there were more suggestions beyond removing units or moving Infestor to Hive Tech (do you even realize how many timings would be indefensible if this was done with nothing to compensate). Zerg are winning 50% but frustrating everyone. My suggestion: buff some of their 10-15 minute tech (probably lair tech) and nerf Infestor spells a bit. I think it would result in much more satisfying gameplay for everyone. I think most Zergs would be fine with some nerfs to Infestor if they could just get some better options mid game. Ling-bling-muta is pretty cool but does not transition to late game nearly as well as Infestor... actually I think TvZ would be ok-ish even with an infestor nerf but Zerg would need some love to stand against Protoss timings if Infestor is nerfed.
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IT and broodlings shouldnt get upgrades imo...they are practically free units...fg shouldnt stop units, just be that new oracle spell thing they introduced recently
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On November 05 2012 11:27 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 11:17 ThomasjServo wrote:On November 05 2012 11:08 superstartran wrote:On November 05 2012 10:44 ThomasjServo wrote:On November 05 2012 10:28 FinestHour wrote:
a full energy infestor does so much guaranteed damage with fungals compared to a raven with one hunter seeker
it just depresses me to no end now As a zerg I can see the argument for increasing energy cost of infestor spells. That being said I would prefer they look at IT vs. Fungal for that increase. Chain fungals while amazing, are a lynch pin of ZvX and risking breaking Zerg all around it is not worth the potential consequences of the current energy costs. You're race is fundamentally broken if it has to rely on a godly spell like fungal that is broken as fuck in so many ways it hurts my head. Do I think fungal is necessary for Z to win? Yes. Do I think it's balance that when properly used, Infestors basically rape everything on the map with the proper support units? No. I never made the claim fungal was fundamentally balanced, I am merely suggesting that the energy be adjusted to reflect the value of the spell in question. IT are as deadly as fungal when used offensively rather that using the root to stem the tide of enemy units. I think that fungal as a root is interesting, though it rewards relatively lazy play from Zerg. That being said, I also feel like High Templar and Ghosts are still under explored as far as mana burn builds goes in comparison with DPS. No need to get angry at the current state of things, we are here to have a thoughtful discussion on the matter. I am simply positing that Infested Terran cost more mana; might be interesting to have them cost some amount of supply as well. I recognize that having a food cost for a free unit is wonky to say the least but it is an idea. I would also support a rework of the geometry of the Infestor to make it more vulnerable to AOE burns like EMP, allowing for more than 1 or 2 to be caught in the spell's AOE. It seem to me that in many cases IT's were a much bigger problem then fungal this past MLG. They are both really, really good spells. At least one needs a nerf because Infestors are currently just all around good units good in any situation and you can't make too many of them. I hope they are reworked in HotS
With mech being in vogue they are the far superior option if the number of BFH are low enough. Sink tank shots into the eggs, Raven's are awesome in such a situation , but most Terran delay that tech until super late.
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How about instead of fungals holding units, but slowing units? This will allow some degree of micro potential instead of 'well those units are as good as dead'.
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EPT
