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On November 05 2012 10:50 TimENT wrote:
37 infestors in one game ----> is that okay blizzard?
Taeja struggles SOOOOO hard to barely win an engagement lategame v Rain, both floating 2500 min 1000 gas, rain warps in 48 supply worth of zealots in 1 second ----> is that okay blizzard?
Please stop complaining about PvT lategame. I saw that engagement. Taeja lost 16 ghosts right at the start and Rain still got storms off. Plus, Terran has had better win rate vs P in August, throughout WCS continental tournaments, and at MLG this weekend.
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Terran player since season one here. i really need to clarify here: Terran doesn't skip making raven because its bad. Raven is actually pretty good although not super awesome like infestors. They are good because of:
1) vZ: detection and pdd. Can you imagine how many scans can you save from clearing creeps if you have raven. the scans you saved can turn into minerals = more raxes and rines (or helions if you are meching). More rines and helions gives you even stronger mid game to defend mass lings style and you can do more multi prong attack with the extra rines. As for PDD, lategame its fucking useful vs corruptors. As you know vikings alone are not effective vs corruptors but a few PDD can win you the fight (provided you are not fungaled zzz)
2) vP: again its PDD. seriously forget about the useless HSM and auto gun (see i even forget what the first skill called) PDD is the shit. Again PDD is to protect your army especially vikings from stalkers. Your vikings survived longer and their collosi be handled better.
But why no one makes raven? This is due to the high demand of Mediviacs and vikings in both match up. Without mediviacs bio is shit. almost every protoss plays collosi, without vikings you cant even engage an collosi deathball even though you have stronger upgrades and more army supplies. Without vikings transtition you will GG to broodlord infestors army even though you have 3 3 rines. Not to mention u need tonnes of mediviacs if you want your rines to survive longer when they got fungaled. You see terrans needs their starports in reactor to consistently pump out vikings or mediviacs according to situations. Don't tell me to add in more starports with tech labs as we also need shit loads of raxes to keep pumping out bio forces. Space constraint is another thing, mass rines are not cheap and raven cost 100 mineral each.
Seriously please stop blaming terrans don't make ravens already. Ravens don't even exist in MVP's mech army so u know why.
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You know, so many zergs say that they have no options other than infestors, but when I watch Life or Leenock play, I simply don't believe that. They are so good without their infestors, but simply dominant when they have them. In the spirit of any balance thread whining, just go play like them.
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Why not just give raven a quicker buildtime?
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On November 05 2012 11:52 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 10:50 TimENT wrote:
37 infestors in one game ----> is that okay blizzard?
Taeja struggles SOOOOO hard to barely win an engagement lategame v Rain, both floating 2500 min 1000 gas, rain warps in 48 supply worth of zealots in 1 second ----> is that okay blizzard?
Please stop complaining about PvT lategame. I saw that engagement. Taeja lost 16 ghosts right at the start and Rain still got storms off. Plus, Terran has had better win rate vs P in August, throughout WCS continental tournaments, and at MLG this weekend.
This is stupid. Anyone who pulls out win rates and calls something balanced doesn't understand what people are complaining about.
PvZ might have a close to 50% win rate but it doesn't matter cause it's not a balanced late game composition. Even Grubby said so on the front page during an interview in this last MLG, look at how people win, if all Protoss does is all in, and they win 90% of the time, while if Zerg gets their late game bl/infestor comp and they win 90% of the time, how does that make for a fun game? (and this is balance aside)
Just like TvP, it's not too bad to kill a Protoss sub 4 bases, but after the 4th and 5th base comes up, it gets much harder for the Terran. Just cause you can be like but look Taeja did something wrong doesn't mean it's actually not that hard, but it's cause of some mistake.
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Only way to fix this situation is, remove infestors and add in defilers, remove collos and add in reavers.
Only units that is used in every game is the infestors, it's because the units is so good vs everything. add in burrow movement the unit is just so good. Fungals should slow movement and not root them.
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On November 05 2012 11:42 SaberNodoka wrote:
How about instead of fungals holding units, but slowing units? This will allow some degree of micro potential instead of 'well those units are as good as dead'.
This has been suggested multiple times before, it is a valid option though not something that would likely come through in WoL. While changing fungal to a slow would be interesting, I would be curious about potential changes to the DOT effect of the spell that may or may not be necessary as a result
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On November 05 2012 11:55 Chaggi wrote:
You know, so many zergs say that they have no options other than infestors, but when I watch Life or Leenock play, I simply don't believe that. They are so good without their infestors, but simply dominant when they have them. In the spirit of any balance thread whining, just go play like them.
muta is a lot more risky and often only works when terran is not expecting it, such as hellion banshee.
We don't even see terran scanning for tech choose for zerg anymore.
Not to mention most often they only get around 8 mutas and then transition into ling heavy infestors and eventually deathball.
those mutas are purely for scaring the terran not to move out too early (hitting the pre hive timing) and to get any scvs they can.
this is different to the old ling baneling muta style where muta is used heavily to harass, kill reinforcement, snipe scvs and buildings.
right now I hope blizzard will find a way to buff other options so that infestors style isn't as more preferable as it is now.
Infestors open up efficient supply trading, faster hive for T3 AND upgrades.
I have seen some pro getting quick hive for faster Adrenal Glands upgrade starting around the half of 2-2 upgrade and delaying broodlords production
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What if some of the infestor spells were moved to the viper? I'm not sure which, because theres only 3; but the way i see it is that, as mentioned before, zerg has ONE end-all spellcaster unit that is decent or great versus almost every unit in the game.
Lets look at the other race's spellcasters: Terran has the ghost and raven, and each is only good versus a specific matchup/ composition. (ravens vs. late game zerg air, ghosts versus Protoss templar based armies and zerg infestors). The ghost patch/nerf reveals how useful spreading out the different spells were. Hypothetically speaking, the ghosts nerf didn't affect the viability of the raven. Although its not widely seen, the raven is still a semi-viable late game unit that counters zerg air pretty well.
Protoss has both the sentry, the high templar, and the soon to be oracle, all of which add variety to the game. The problem is, zergs don't have to make such drastic decisions as Protoss and terrans do. They just go for infestors, and then choose either ultras or brood lords. And fyi, i do agree that without the infestor, zergs would be screwed.
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Decrease burrowed infestor movement speed to that similar of roaches
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I wish they'd start by splitting fungal growth into two separate spells, one that deals damage and one that roots. Both of which would have their own energy costs.
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On November 05 2012 12:03 GoldforGolden wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 11:55 Chaggi wrote:
You know, so many zergs say that they have no options other than infestors, but when I watch Life or Leenock play, I simply don't believe that. They are so good without their infestors, but simply dominant when they have them. In the spirit of any balance thread whining, just go play like them. muta is a lot more risky and often only works when terran is not expecting it. We don't even see terran scanning for tech choose for zerg anymore. Not to mention most often they only get around 8 mutas and then transition into ling heavy infestors and eventually deathball. those mutas are purely for scaring the terran not to move out too early (hitting the pre hive timing) and to get any scvs they can.
Mutalisks seem to be feeling a lot more beefy of late, with how much Terran is either delaying medivacs or the the timing of Thors in TvZ. Infestors are the utility choice for Zerg, the upgrades synergize a lot more in every match up, but especially in ZvT mech simulations Mutalisks have a very unique role. I would liken it to Mutas in ZvZ more than anything.
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On November 05 2012 12:01 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 11:52 Wingblade wrote:On November 05 2012 10:50 TimENT wrote:
37 infestors in one game ----> is that okay blizzard?
Taeja struggles SOOOOO hard to barely win an engagement lategame v Rain, both floating 2500 min 1000 gas, rain warps in 48 supply worth of zealots in 1 second ----> is that okay blizzard?
Please stop complaining about PvT lategame. I saw that engagement. Taeja lost 16 ghosts right at the start and Rain still got storms off. Plus, Terran has had better win rate vs P in August, throughout WCS continental tournaments, and at MLG this weekend. This is stupid. Anyone who pulls out win rates and calls something balanced doesn't understand what people are complaining about. PvZ might have a close to 50% win rate but it doesn't matter cause it's not a balanced late game composition. Even Grubby said so on the front page during an interview in this last MLG, look at how people win, if all Protoss does is all in, and they win 90% of the time, while if Zerg gets their late game bl/infestor comp and they win 90% of the time, how does that make for a fun game? (and this is balance aside) Just like TvP, it's not too bad to kill a Protoss sub 4 bases, but after the 4th and 5th base comes up, it gets much harder for the Terran. Just cause you can be like but look Taeja did something wrong doesn't mean it's actually not that hard, but it's cause of some mistake.
But it was. And that's not true at all. By that point in the game Terran can trade scvs for more army because they can mine minerals with MULEs as long as they build extra OCs. And how is using winrates less evidence than some dude pulling one engagement out of thin air and claiming balance based on that.
I can show you a lategame engagement from one of my games where the Terran doesn't attempt any semblance of micro, misses EMPs and sits in storms and claim Terran lategame is imba against Protoss. That doesn't mean im right.
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On November 05 2012 12:13 Wingblade wrote:
I can show you a lategame engagement from one of my games where the Terran doesn't attempt any semblance of micro, misses EMPs and sits in storms and claim Terran lategame is imba against Protoss. That doesn't mean im right.
Great.
In case you were wondering, we aren't talking about your games, or my games, or anyone else below top Korean level.
We are talking about the VERY top level, where late game P can insta remax in less than 30 seconds after winning, or barely losing in EVERY single battle vs Terran in the late game.
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On November 05 2012 12:13 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 12:01 Chaggi wrote:On November 05 2012 11:52 Wingblade wrote:On November 05 2012 10:50 TimENT wrote:
37 infestors in one game ----> is that okay blizzard?
Taeja struggles SOOOOO hard to barely win an engagement lategame v Rain, both floating 2500 min 1000 gas, rain warps in 48 supply worth of zealots in 1 second ----> is that okay blizzard?
Please stop complaining about PvT lategame. I saw that engagement. Taeja lost 16 ghosts right at the start and Rain still got storms off. Plus, Terran has had better win rate vs P in August, throughout WCS continental tournaments, and at MLG this weekend. This is stupid. Anyone who pulls out win rates and calls something balanced doesn't understand what people are complaining about. PvZ might have a close to 50% win rate but it doesn't matter cause it's not a balanced late game composition. Even Grubby said so on the front page during an interview in this last MLG, look at how people win, if all Protoss does is all in, and they win 90% of the time, while if Zerg gets their late game bl/infestor comp and they win 90% of the time, how does that make for a fun game? (and this is balance aside) Just like TvP, it's not too bad to kill a Protoss sub 4 bases, but after the 4th and 5th base comes up, it gets much harder for the Terran. Just cause you can be like but look Taeja did something wrong doesn't mean it's actually not that hard, but it's cause of some mistake. But it was. And that's not true at all. By that point in the game Terran can trade scvs for more army because they can mine minerals with MULEs as long as they build extra OCs. And how is using winrates less evidence than some dude pulling one engagement out of thin air and claiming balance based on that. I can show you a lategame engagement from one of my games where the Terran doesn't attempt any semblance of micro, misses EMPs and sits in storms and claim Terran lategame is imba against Protoss. That doesn't mean im right.
If Colossus are in the picture you actually can't show that engagement, it doesn't exist.
The problem is a lot of things frustrate the players ie. you, me and the pros because they is no response available at all for you to defend against some things in the game. Terran doesn't have a response to a mass Protoss late game warp in, it's not a gradual loss you just get smashed and it's frustrating as hell. The same thing applies to Toss players when they get steamrolled by marines, if your higher tech units are taken out there is nothing you can do but get absolutely rolled by 40 marines with stim. The same thing applies with infestor broodlord, you do everything you can to stop it but at some point a fungal lands and you may as well take your hands off the keyboard. There is no response left, it's over.
The less control you have over something the more frustrating it tends to become. Mistakes should be punished, but at the same time you should feel like your opponent did something good to punish your mistake. Having your entire army mowed down because you couldn't snipe off 10 ht AND emp the Archons AND control your vikings perfectly is very frustrating. At what point did the protoss player do anything in that particular battle to outplay or outthink you? the simple answer is he didn't, he landed 1-2 storms and a-moved his army. The loss of control in those situations is why Terran players bitch so much about lategame TvP, and why many of us simply don't play that much. When a Zerg gets crushed by an immortal all in it's the same story, the Protoss player might have hit all his timings perfectly but the Zerg is totally helpless and relies on the Toss player making a mistake. Same thing with lategame PvZ, trying to get your mothership into position only to have your opponent spreading his stuff out properly means you're screwed and the game is completely out of your control, again frustrating.
Removing and balancing things that are extremely frustrating is very important, it really doesn't matter if the matchup is overall very balanced if certain situations make you want to alt-f4 your game and play something else.
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Blizzard needs to look at these asap:
1. Infestors obviously.
2. Colossi, too deathballish.
3. Marines. Yeah I mean it. These units are fucking free and deadly at the same time. Nerfing Infestor and Colossi have to be followed up by nerfing marines. Take any TvX matchup, if X doesn't get his deathball he will slowly die to endless stream of Marines.
Possible ways to nerf.
1. Infestors, fungal needs to be projectiled, infested-terrans don't benefit from upgrades.
2. Colossi substituted by reaver.
3. Marines. I don't even know, more health cost on stim? lesser healing rate from medivac? remove speed boost from stim?
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On November 05 2012 12:54 bokeevboke wrote:
Blizzard needs to look at these asap:
1. Infestors obviously.
2. Colossi, too deathballish.
3. Marines. Yeah I mean it. These units are fucking free and deadly at the same time. Nerfing Infestor and Colossi have to be followed up by nerfing marines. Take any TvX matchup, if X doesn't get his deathball he will slowly die to endless stream of Marines.
Possible ways to nerf.
1. Infestors, fungal needs to be projectiled, infested-terrans don't benefit from upgrades.
2. Colossi substituted by reaver.
3. Marines. I don't even know, more health cost on stim? lesser healing rate from medivac? remove speed boost from stim?
Well, nerf colossi and infestors, but buff other parts of the races...marines don't remove micro or anything like that lol
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On November 05 2012 12:56 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 12:54 bokeevboke wrote:
Blizzard needs to look at these asap:
1. Infestors obviously.
2. Colossi, too deathballish.
3. Marines. Yeah I mean it. These units are fucking free and deadly at the same time. Nerfing Infestor and Colossi have to be followed up by nerfing marines. Take any TvX matchup, if X doesn't get his deathball he will slowly die to endless stream of Marines.
Possible ways to nerf.
1. Infestors, fungal needs to be projectiled, infested-terrans don't benefit from upgrades.
2. Colossi substituted by reaver.
3. Marines. I don't even know, more health cost on stim? lesser healing rate from medivac? remove speed boost from stim?
Well, nerf colossi and infestors, but buff other parts of the races...marines don't remove micro or anything like that lol
what micro has to do with them being op?
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On November 05 2012 12:34 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 12:13 Wingblade wrote:On November 05 2012 12:01 Chaggi wrote:On November 05 2012 11:52 Wingblade wrote:On November 05 2012 10:50 TimENT wrote:
37 infestors in one game ----> is that okay blizzard?
Taeja struggles SOOOOO hard to barely win an engagement lategame v Rain, both floating 2500 min 1000 gas, rain warps in 48 supply worth of zealots in 1 second ----> is that okay blizzard?
Please stop complaining about PvT lategame. I saw that engagement. Taeja lost 16 ghosts right at the start and Rain still got storms off. Plus, Terran has had better win rate vs P in August, throughout WCS continental tournaments, and at MLG this weekend. This is stupid. Anyone who pulls out win rates and calls something balanced doesn't understand what people are complaining about. PvZ might have a close to 50% win rate but it doesn't matter cause it's not a balanced late game composition. Even Grubby said so on the front page during an interview in this last MLG, look at how people win, if all Protoss does is all in, and they win 90% of the time, while if Zerg gets their late game bl/infestor comp and they win 90% of the time, how does that make for a fun game? (and this is balance aside) Just like TvP, it's not too bad to kill a Protoss sub 4 bases, but after the 4th and 5th base comes up, it gets much harder for the Terran. Just cause you can be like but look Taeja did something wrong doesn't mean it's actually not that hard, but it's cause of some mistake. But it was. And that's not true at all. By that point in the game Terran can trade scvs for more army because they can mine minerals with MULEs as long as they build extra OCs. And how is using winrates less evidence than some dude pulling one engagement out of thin air and claiming balance based on that. I can show you a lategame engagement from one of my games where the Terran doesn't attempt any semblance of micro, misses EMPs and sits in storms and claim Terran lategame is imba against Protoss. That doesn't mean im right. If Colossus are in the picture you actually can't show that engagement, it doesn't exist. The problem is a lot of things frustrate the players ie. you, me and the pros because they is no response available at all for you to defend against some things in the game. Terran doesn't have a response to a mass Protoss late game warp in, it's not a gradual loss you just get smashed and it's frustrating as hell. The same thing applies to Toss players when they get steamrolled by marines, if your higher tech units are taken out there is nothing you can do but get absolutely rolled by 40 marines with stim. The same thing applies with infestor broodlord, you do everything you can to stop it but at some point a fungal lands and you may as well take your hands off the keyboard. There is no response left, it's over. The less control you have over something the more frustrating it tends to become. Mistakes should be punished, but at the same time you should feel like your opponent did something good to punish your mistake. Having your entire army mowed down because you couldn't snipe off 10 ht AND emp the Archons AND control your vikings perfectly is very frustrating. At what point did the protoss player do anything in that particular battle to outplay or outthink you? the simple answer is he didn't, he landed 1-2 storms and a-moved his army. The loss of control in those situations is why Terran players bitch so much about lategame TvP, and why many of us simply don't play that much. When a Zerg gets crushed by an immortal all in it's the same story, the Protoss player might have hit all his timings perfectly but the Zerg is totally helpless and relies on the Toss player making a mistake. Same thing with lategame PvZ, trying to get your mothership into position only to have your opponent spreading his stuff out properly means you're screwed and the game is completely out of your control, again frustrating. Removing and balancing things that are extremely frustrating is very important, it really doesn't matter if the matchup is overall very balanced if certain situations make you want to alt-f4 your game and play something else.
Are you sure that engagement doesn't exist? I just played a PvT where that exact thing just happened. And it isn't that hard to do if you build double digit ghost numbers. You just spam EMP on everything when it moves in. No other spell in Starcraft instantly deals 100 damage to every unit and remove 100 of the units energy if it has any. Ghosts actually counter every single unit Protoss can make. And every single building. If your losing TvP lategame engagements, sack some scvs and build more ghosts.
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On November 05 2012 12:06 Rei X Bodom wrote:
I wish they'd start by splitting fungal growth into two separate spells, one that deals damage and one that roots. Both of which would have their own energy costs.
This is a really fucking good idea.
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EPT
