EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 370
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
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yaeger
Norway98 Posts
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On November 02 2012 21:18 Rabiator wrote: So far there is no indication for any of this, right? The only thing they did claim was that they were trying to make mech more viable, but no word about air units. So why do you say "They are going to:" as if it was a matter of fact? They *should do* many of these things, but they dont *have to* ... What about Queens? 7 range AA is pretty massive and the transfusion makes them basically unkillable with just a few units. You cant "have it all in one unit" and ask for a super fast unit with super range and super damage. Take a look at the Terran AA ... the Thor ... and you see that the Queen isnt that terrible as you think it is. It also saves on larvae. For an even better mobility you could even pick up some Queens in an Overlord and transport them to the hotspot. the Thor isn't the Terran AA, the Marine is. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 02 2012 21:18 Rabiator wrote: So far there is no indication for any of this, right? The only thing they did claim was that they were trying to make mech more viable, but no word about air units. So why do you say "They are going to:" as if it was a matter of fact? They *should do* many of these things, but they dont *have to* ... -) Some proplayer (can't remember who, and don't know the link for it. Only found it myself via getting linked there) leaked a David Kim post from the blizzard-proforums to reddit, which said that they will change the carrier and they are thinking about doing it with Tyler's suggestions. -) There was a recent post in some Raven discussion on the battle.net forums from Dustin Browder, saying that they want to change the Raven. Furthermore, the Raven was buffed in the 1.0 version of HotS beta - in ways that were never in any other WoL version, indicating that they are at least playing around with it. That stuff doesn't change itself. -) Vortex... recent post about "fading it out" or something like that. -) Siege Tank - rock comment who liked some idea about longer siege up, stronger siege tank. Plus the constant claims to make mech viable in TvP... -) BC +2damage was meant to be a HotS feature and was in the 1.0 HotS beta version... Probably going to return. The indications are everywhere. There are just no official statements or patch notes yet. On November 02 2012 21:18 Rabiator wrote: What about Queens? 7 range AA is pretty massive and the transfusion makes them basically unkillable with just a few units. You cant "have it all in one unit" and ask for a super fast unit with super range and super damage. Take a look at the Terran AA ... the Thor ... and you see that the Queen isnt that terrible as you think it is. It also saves on larvae. For an even better mobility you could even pick up some Queens in an Overlord and transport them to the hotspot. 7range is not massive, in the lategame, where you face 13 and 9range units. I'm not thinking about early or midgame. Queens, Hydras, Spores, nerfed Infestors, Mutas, Corruptors are all enough for that job. The problem is deathball air play supported with siege tanks, Colossi and Templar. Corruptors on their own don't do the job. That's it, there is nothing else that offers reasonable supplyefficiency if Infestors get nerfed in ways that target exactly that. And really, you think that Queens are better than Thors for Antiair? Both get destroyed by capitalships, for everything else the Thor is way better. Also Marines? Vikings? All more supplyefficient than queens. Add Ravens with PDD and HSM if you can afford it. Again more supplyefficient than queens and without rooting fungal, it's potential is going to skyrocket in lategame TvZ. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On November 03 2012 01:18 Big J wrote: -) Some proplayer (can't remember who, and don't know the link for it. Only found it myself via getting linked there) leaked a David Kim post from the blizzard-proforums to reddit, which said that they will change the carrier and they are thinking about doing it with Tyler's suggestions. -) There was a recent post in some Raven discussion on the battle.net forums from Dustin Browder, saying that they want to change the Raven. Furthermore, the Raven was buffed in the 1.0 version of HotS beta - in ways that were never in any other WoL version, indicating that they are at least playing around with it. That stuff doesn't change itself. -) Vortex... recent post about "fading it out" or something like that. -) Siege Tank - rock comment who liked some idea about longer siege up, stronger siege tank. Plus the constant claims to make mech viable in TvP... -) BC +2damage was meant to be a HotS feature and was in the 1.0 HotS beta version... Probably going to return. The indications are everywhere. There are just no official statements or patch notes yet. Exactly ... indications. I will believe it when I see it, because so far Blizzard is doing so many things wrong that it isnt even funny. A stronger BC/Siege Tank will screw up the Terran with Neural Parasite even more. Lets hope they notice that and fix the spell (i.e. remove it or nerf the range or add a "Infestor only has 1 hp side effect" like the Dark Archon in BW) as well, because you will need infantry support units in any case. On November 03 2012 01:18 Big J wrote: 7range is not massive, in the lategame, where you face 13 and 9range units. I'm not thinking about early or midgame. Queens, Hydras, Spores, nerfed Infestors, Mutas, Corruptors are all enough for that job. The problem is deathball air play supported with siege tanks, Colossi and Templar. Corruptors on their own don't do the job. That's it, there is nothing else that offers reasonable supplyefficiency if Infestors get nerfed in ways that target exactly that. And really, you think that Queens are better than Thors for Antiair? Both get destroyed by capitalships, for everything else the Thor is way better. Also Marines? Vikings? All more supplyefficient than queens. Add Ravens with PDD and HSM if you can afford it. Again more supplyefficient than queens and without rooting fungal, it's potential is going to skyrocket in lategame TvZ. 13 and 9 range is GROUND BASED and not air. You were talking about air battles ... On November 03 2012 01:14 Chaggi wrote: the Thor isn't the Terran AA, the Marine is. The Thor is the mech anti-Muta-AA against those Zerg players who dont know how to magic-box. It was supposed to be an AA mech, but failed totally due to its lack of mobility and abuseable achilles heel of low AA damage because of the AoE. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
- too expensive - takes too long to build - HSM takes an upgrade (not an issue by itself) - to make HSM effective you need another upgrade (this makes HSM much more expensive than it should be) - unless you have a raven with full mana, you can really only use HSM, then run away, no option to HSM, drop PDD etc. because of this you need a lot of ravens. - when you first build a raven you can't really use any of it's "good" moves - slow, easy to pick off when the games go super-late and you have showdowns like MVP V Nestea at IEM, sure ravens are fucking incredible, but until that point, they're so expensive and hard to use that choosing to build ravens can make or break your chance at winning. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 03 2012 01:35 Rabiator wrote: Exactly ... indications. I will believe it when I see it, because so far Blizzard is doing so many things wrong that it isnt even funny. A stronger BC/Siege Tank will screw up the Terran with Neural Parasite even more. Lets hope they notice that and fix the spell (i.e. remove it or nerf the range or add a "Infestor only has 1 hp side effect" like the Dark Archon in BW) as well, because you will need infantry support units in any case. 13 and 9 range is GROUND BASED and not air. You were talking about air battles ... The queen is a groundbased unit. So it gets hit from 9/13range. I was talking about On November 03 2012 01:18 Big J wrote: deathball air play supported with siege tanks, Colossi and Templar And to quote you: #1: So far there is no indication for any of this, right? #2: Exactly ... indications. And yeah. I believe that they will make a lot of changes to WoL units. They said that they will overhaul the balance of the old units completly, when they are done designing the HotS units. Until now they have never made such statements and then backed off. | ||
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KentHenry
United States260 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On November 05 2012 08:14 KentHenry wrote: FUCK SC2 and it's imbalance, Terran late game blows, Flash should not have been 4-0 that easily when he 2-0 the guy an hour earlier. FUCK THIS GAME. Sry just needed to vent. Your vent aside, if you look at the 2 games Flash did win, it was from MAJOR mistakes on Life's side: 1) suiciding 10 infestors in game 1 with a-move misclick. 2) If you notice game 2 was the only time he did not go BL/infestor and, instead, went ultra and lost. If Life had continued with his standard formula (BL/infestor) I don't think Flash should have even won a game. | ||
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NeMaTo
United States50 Posts
On November 05 2012 08:14 KentHenry wrote: FUCK SC2 and it's imbalance, Terran late game blows, Flash should not have been 4-0 that easily when he 2-0 the guy an hour earlier. FUCK THIS GAME. Sry just needed to vent. Infestors are so blatantly imbalanced it's funny Blizzard doesn't do anything. And this is a minor problem, but I never understood why borrowed banelings do so much damage. Do something clever like "when borrowed, baneling explosions do half damage" etc to make it more fair. It's so anticlimatic watching an intense, even game suddenly get out of control in favor of one player just because a couple of hidden banelings that cost about 100~150 resources... | ||
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tronix
United States95 Posts
On November 05 2012 08:14 KentHenry wrote: FUCK SC2 and it's imbalance, Terran late game blows, Flash should not have been 4-0 that easily when he 2-0 the guy an hour earlier. FUCK THIS GAME. Sry just needed to vent. flash clearly isn't that comfortable with hive tech transitions. to me it seemed like he doesn't really know the timings that well. he didn't get vikings, went blind thors against infestors, starting viking production against muta play, etc, etc. this on top of the insane pressure that life can put on with lings made flash's TvZ look like a joke. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On November 05 2012 08:22 tronix wrote: flash clearly isn't that comfortable with hive tech transitions. to me it seemed like he doesn't really know the timings that well. he didn't get vikings, went blind thors against infestors, starting viking production against muta play, etc, etc. this on top of the insane pressure that life can put on with lings made flash's TvZ look like a joke. Wait you mean like every other Terran out there? There is no "comfort" in hive tech transitions. The only thing you can do is basically play blind and pray that you hit the Z as he's transitioning from hive tech with a big 2/2 push, otherwise you are fucking dead in the water. | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On November 05 2012 08:22 NeMaTo wrote: Infestors are so blatantly imbalanced it's funny Blizzard doesn't do anything. And this is a minor problem, but I never understood why borrowed banelings do so much damage. Do something clever like "when borrowed, baneling explosions do half damage" etc to make it more fair. It's so anticlimatic watching an intense, even game suddenly get out of control in favor of one player just because a couple of hidden banelings that cost about 100~150 resources... Blizzard see's this imbalance and they're trying to fix these problems with HOTS. But my question to them is "are we really supposed to wait until HOTS to address this?" Zergs are absolutely dominating the scene winning major tournament after major tournament. When Nerchio was asked in IEM, "Q: why are we seeing so many new top zergs emerging. A: I'm pretty sure it b/c of "patched zerg"; especially with the queen and overlord buff..." So are we supposed to wait for Blizzard to throw darts on a board hoping something sticks with HOTS? If nothing changes I think many players will leave the scene before Blizzard ever releases HOTS - I mean people use this game for their livelihood. Many are already leaving as is.... | ||
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Jasiwel
United States146 Posts
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dangthatsright
1160 Posts
On November 05 2012 08:22 NeMaTo wrote: And this is a minor problem, but I never understood why borrowed banelings do so much damage. Do something clever like "when borrowed, baneling explosions do half damage" etc to make it more fair. It's so anticlimatic watching an intense, even game suddenly get out of control in favor of one player just because a couple of hidden banelings that cost about 100~150 resources... To be honest, I don't feel like burrowed banelings are too much of an issue, since a single raven deals with most of that, or at least turrets deals with the ones close to base (in addition to burrowed infestors or roaches). If anything, maybe the splash radius of the banelings could change when burrowed, but I don't think the damage is the issue if there is one. | ||
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
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Jaegeru
United Kingdom676 Posts
Take the ghost, when terrans used to make tons of ghosts against Hive tech compositions snipe was nerfed almost immediatly. You see zerg making 15+ infestors in almost every game in every matchup yet the infestor still hasn't been nerfed despite it creating such massive and obvious imbalances, it's almost ironic that ghosts were nerfed so quickly when they were overmade and countered the T3 / Hive tech compositions. Yet the tables have been completely turned with zerg now over making infestors like terrans did ghosts yet it is taking Blizzard so long to nerf infestors. It's obvious that they are a quintessential part of their compositions, but when you can blindly make infestors and its almost always a good thing to do, it's far to versatile. Without completely destroying zerg, I would really like to see the infestor model made smaller so that ghosts can get more efficient EMP's hitting more than 2 or 3 infestors with a near perfect EMP, and for infestors to be increased to either 3 or 4 supply so more thought goes into how many infestors you need to make and so that you can make the mistake of overmaking infestors if terran is also making ghosts. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On November 05 2012 08:49 Jaegeru wrote: Problem is that infestors are far too efficient, you pretty much blindly make them and there isn't really a point where you can make too many infestors. It's sad to see a single unit stagnating the metagame so much imo and creating so many blaring imbalances. Take the ghost, when terrans used to make tons of ghosts against Hive tech compositions snipe was nerfed almost immediatly. You see zerg making 15+ infestors in almost every game in every matchup yet the infestor still hasn't been nerfed despite it creating such massive and obvious imbalances, it's almost ironic that ghosts were nerfed so quickly when they were overmade and countered the T3 / Hive tech compositions. Yet the tables have been completely turned with zerg now over making infestors like terrans did ghosts yet it is taking Blizzard so long to nerf infestors. It's obvious that they are a quintessential part of their compositions, but when you can blindly make infestors and its almost always a good thing to do, it's far to versatile. Without completely destroying zerg, I would really like to see the infestor model made smaller so that ghosts can get more efficient EMP's hitting more than 2 or 3 infestors with a near perfect EMP, and for infestors to be increased to either 3 or 4 supply so more thought goes into how many infestors you need to make and so that you can make the mistake of overmaking infestors if terran is also making ghosts. Ghost transitions only worked if you had the infrastructure to support Ghosts, meaning PFs/Tanks/etc. to deal with any cheap tier 1 unit en masse switch that basically ran over Ghosts. Infestors do not just counter higher tech units like Thors and BCs (and to a lesser extent Tanks with Infested Terrans), they are also obscenely cost efficient vs Marines/Maras. | ||
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CurseDawg
Portugal31 Posts
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