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On November 01 2012 00:39 Bellazuk wrote:I think your conception is biased on your army composition. Late game zerg , need to deal with, pdds, seeker missile, thor in range of corruptor and infestor in range of siege tank. And banshee thor and tank, need detection, focus fire banshee, save your overseer from thors, don't evecute roachs into tank and banshee. Having that said, Terran only a clicked with couple scvs repairing micro along the way. I can't really agree with the concept Terran has to micro insane. Sure thing if you go bio then you need to micro but then u'll have the most cost effective unit of all time 
Best troll post this week ^^ There should be a hall of fame for that.
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On November 01 2012 00:35 Rannasha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 00:33 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 00:20 Fission wrote:On November 01 2012 00:18 vthree wrote:On November 01 2012 00:14 Fission wrote:
You can't just make up wild and incredibly unlikely claims and expect everybody to just take your word for it. TvZ is probably closer to 50:50 in reality.
The burden of proof isn't on me to prove you wrong, its on you to demonstrate how you arrived at those numbers. I think you completely made it up to try to elicit sympathy for T, which is doing just fine. Considering those don't seem like random numbers, it is likely he ran a script on the TLPD data, do you want to see the script? Script and exact tournies chosen to be counted would suffice. I will create my own numbers later after work. Ok, just did the numbers. Games are the ones in that link GSL, GSTL, OSL for October. ZvT is 48 - 27. And I did it the old fashion way by counting. We need a video (at least 720p!) with you scrolling through the results while counting out loud or these conclusions are not valid!
Uploading video now!!!
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Austria24417 Posts
Alright, I'm gonna try this. These are individual suggestions, I'm not saying implement all of these at once.
1) Make the corruptor massive. This is a buff to void rays, because then they might actually be useful instead of a "well... there's no unit to deal with BL/infestor, so I just make void rays and lose anyway" unit. A big problem with PvZ is that protoss lacks a good middle ground air unit, like the viking. You can start throwing up starports and produce vikings to combat BL/infestor. Protoss can't do that because void rays are, put bluntly, SHIT. So, if protoss could start making void rays, zerg would have to focus infestor energy on them. Drain infestor energy => Stalkers & archons become stronger.
2) What if fungal didn't affect massive units or only dealt damage to them. Massive units are usually slow already and they're also expensive. Fungal growth makes every attack with a massive army very risky because there is absolutely no retreat with them once you get fungaled. I'm especially talking about carriers, mothership, battlecruisers here. ZvZ wouldn't be affected pretty much at all since you're not gonna chain fungal an ultralisk (it's not even possible since it'd run away). TvZ, Thors and BCs would be affected, these units are already slow as hell. PvZ is where it'd shine with carriers, archons and the mothership. These units are ridiculously expensive and slow (except for archons). But since protoss is already at a speed disadvantage in PvZ, freezing archons is not hugely important. They're not gonna run after your army, that's what stalkers do. Carriers are too expensive & take too long to build to risk getting fungaled and have everything die. Corruptors and ITs already deal with them well enough.
And 3) in my opinion, NO ability at all should affect the mothership. It's too important. And, just to mention this, it seems kinda retarded to me design-wise that a bug can effectively disable a freaking mothership. Where's the advanced technology now? Your opponent has a few bugs or a guy with a gun and "the ultimate protoss weapon" is rendered useless.
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On October 31 2012 23:48 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 23:34 opus55 wrote:On October 31 2012 23:25 Azzur wrote:See my previous posts on the solution to infestors as a support for your post: Solution:
Fungals should not hit air units. This will allow air units (e.g. banshees) to counter them. This will also make mutas usable in ZvZ. With the queen buff, zergs already have many options in fighting mutas anyways. Also, in the PvZ matchup, the game won't revolve around the "get that money vortex off" since protoss can make air units to counter the infestors.
Interestingly, blizzard foresaw this problem, and initially wanted to remove the infestor ability to affect air units in a previous patch (1.4 I think?). But zerg qq forced them to revert the change. I don't think any zerg can seriously qq anymore. Yeah, did not see your post; I of course think that this could help the game, but who knows which problems we would get then? For example, what does Zerg against Protoss deathballs containing a lot of voidrays? My point was a different one: We (=the community) tend to judge too quickly and to complain too loudly. We should try to get a little bit more patient with what Blizzard does. Maybe fungle should only slow and do nodamages to air units. This would force zerg to spam IT with slow fungles to fight air units.
I've been thinking for a while now that if FG did not ROOT air units it might be all the change needed. Excluding Vortex there's no other spell (currently) that affects air mobility... Being able to still deal damage (and reveal cloak) vs air still seems good to me.
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On November 01 2012 01:09 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Alright, I'm gonna try this. These are individual suggestions, I'm not saying implement all of these.
1) Make the corruptor massive. This is a buff to void rays, because then they might actually be useful instead of a "well... there's no unit to deal with BL/infestor, so I just make void rays and lose anyway" unit. A big problem with PvZ is that protoss lacks a good middle ground air unit, like the viking. You can start throwing up starports and produce vikings to combat BL/infestor. Protoss can't do that because void rays are, put bluntly, SHIT. So, if protoss could start making void rays, zerg would have to focus infestor energy on them. Drain infestor energy => Stalkers & archons become stronger.
2) What if fungal didn't affect massive units or only dealt damage to them. Massive units are usually slow already and they're also expensive. Fungal growth makes every attack with a massive army very risky because there is absolutely no retreat with them once you get fungaled. I'm especially talking about carriers, mothership, battlecruisers here. ZvZ wouldn't be affected pretty much at all since you're not gonna chain fungal an ultralisk (it's not even possible since it'd run away). TvZ, Thors and BCs would be affected, these units are already slow as hell. PvZ is where it'd shine with carriers, archons and the mothership. These units are ridiculously expensive and slow (except for archons). But since protoss is already at a speed disadvantage in PvZ, freezing archons is not hugely important. They're not gonna run after your army, that's what stalkers do. Carriers are too expensive & take too long to build to risk getting fungaled and have everything die. Corruptors and ITs already deal with them well enough.
And 3) in my opinion, NO ability at all should affect the mothership. It's too important. And, just to mention this, it seems kinda retarded to me design-wise that a bug can effectively disable a freaking mothership. Where's the advanced technology now? Your opponent has a few bugs or a guy with a gun and "the ultimate protoss weapon" is rendered useless.
This is about making the game balanced and not one race stomping the other one 1 of these changes might be ok, but 3 this has nothing to do with balance. In the end i doubt blizzard will change anything, since they wanna all show how great hots is, with super "blance" and "awesome" new units.
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Austria24417 Posts
On November 01 2012 01:15 WeRRa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 01:09 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Alright, I'm gonna try this. These are individual suggestions, I'm not saying implement all of these.
1) Make the corruptor massive. This is a buff to void rays, because then they might actually be useful instead of a "well... there's no unit to deal with BL/infestor, so I just make void rays and lose anyway" unit. A big problem with PvZ is that protoss lacks a good middle ground air unit, like the viking. You can start throwing up starports and produce vikings to combat BL/infestor. Protoss can't do that because void rays are, put bluntly, SHIT. So, if protoss could start making void rays, zerg would have to focus infestor energy on them. Drain infestor energy => Stalkers & archons become stronger.
2) What if fungal didn't affect massive units or only dealt damage to them. Massive units are usually slow already and they're also expensive. Fungal growth makes every attack with a massive army very risky because there is absolutely no retreat with them once you get fungaled. I'm especially talking about carriers, mothership, battlecruisers here. ZvZ wouldn't be affected pretty much at all since you're not gonna chain fungal an ultralisk (it's not even possible since it'd run away). TvZ, Thors and BCs would be affected, these units are already slow as hell. PvZ is where it'd shine with carriers, archons and the mothership. These units are ridiculously expensive and slow (except for archons). But since protoss is already at a speed disadvantage in PvZ, freezing archons is not hugely important. They're not gonna run after your army, that's what stalkers do. Carriers are too expensive & take too long to build to risk getting fungaled and have everything die. Corruptors and ITs already deal with them well enough.
And 3) in my opinion, NO ability at all should affect the mothership. It's too important. And, just to mention this, it seems kinda retarded to me design-wise that a bug can effectively disable a freaking mothership. Where's the advanced technology now? Your opponent has a few bugs or a guy with a gun and "the ultimate protoss weapon" is rendered useless. This is about making the game balanced and not one race stomping the other one 1 of these changes might be ok, but 3 this has nothing to do with balance. In the end i doubt blizzard will change anything, since they wanna all show how great hots is, with super "blance" and "awesome" new units.
Oh of course, that's why I said these are individual suggestions. 3 is about balance too since tons of PvZ games just end if zerg neurals the mothership.
I think the first one wouldn't change much at all except for PvZ lategame maybe. That's literally the only matchup it would affect.
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On November 01 2012 01:11 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 23:48 Insoleet wrote:On October 31 2012 23:34 opus55 wrote:On October 31 2012 23:25 Azzur wrote:See my previous posts on the solution to infestors as a support for your post: Solution:
Fungals should not hit air units. This will allow air units (e.g. banshees) to counter them. This will also make mutas usable in ZvZ. With the queen buff, zergs already have many options in fighting mutas anyways. Also, in the PvZ matchup, the game won't revolve around the "get that money vortex off" since protoss can make air units to counter the infestors.
Interestingly, blizzard foresaw this problem, and initially wanted to remove the infestor ability to affect air units in a previous patch (1.4 I think?). But zerg qq forced them to revert the change. I don't think any zerg can seriously qq anymore. Yeah, did not see your post; I of course think that this could help the game, but who knows which problems we would get then? For example, what does Zerg against Protoss deathballs containing a lot of voidrays? My point was a different one: We (=the community) tend to judge too quickly and to complain too loudly. We should try to get a little bit more patient with what Blizzard does. Maybe fungle should only slow and do nodamages to air units. This would force zerg to spam IT with slow fungles to fight air units. I've been thinking for a while now that if FG did not ROOT air units it might be all the change needed. Excluding Vortex there's no other spell (currently) that affects air mobility... Being able to still deal damage (and reveal cloak) vs air still seems good to me.
I´m not sure about this. If protoss goes mass air with a few ht to storm corruptors can z counter it all then? Maybe reduce damage to air a little ? Id have to say NP on mothership is the most retarded thing ever though, as it means insta gg for protoss if MS is neuraled.
On a side note ZvZ would be like brood war(muta ling vs muta ling) without fungal on air , which can be both good and bad i guess
EDit: Not that i read above post again i think i might have misunderstood. Could be a good idea if fungal damaged air but not rooted them, yeah.
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Why not buff carriers? It's an underused unit anyway. If they were buffed it might give toss some way of fighting mass BL and infestor and I doubt it would affect PvT much because ground protoss in that match up will still be the better choice anyway.
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On November 01 2012 02:22 tomatriedes wrote:
Why not buff carriers? It's an underused unit anyway. If they were buffed it might give toss some way of fighting mass BL and infestor and I doubt it would affect PvT much because ground protoss in that match up will still be the better choice anyway.
It wouldn't matter. The problem is intercepters being rooted by fungal.
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On November 01 2012 02:22 tomatriedes wrote:
Why not buff carriers? It's an underused unit anyway. If they were buffed it might give toss some way of fighting mass BL and infestor and I doubt it would affect PvT much because ground protoss in that match up will still be the better choice anyway.
Because I don't think they will do a lot of balance patches for WoL anymore. They are going to:
-) buff the Carrier anyways in HotS
-) buff the Raven anyway in HotS
-) nerf Vortex in HotS
-) may be buffing siege tanks in HotS
-) may be buffing BCs in HotS
Also I don't think that there is a lot that can be done for WoL PvZ, it feels a lot like a lost cause. Hearing Parting talk about Sentry/Immortal 100% winrate in 70games or something like that, seeing Leenock 3base turtling BL/Infestor/Corruptor... It's a stupid balance in this matchup, not a lot of fun and there is not a lot that can be done, until they acknowledge that Protoss vs ground is overpowered and Protoss vs Air is underpowered. (unitwise)
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On November 01 2012 02:28 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 02:22 tomatriedes wrote:
Why not buff carriers? It's an underused unit anyway. If they were buffed it might give toss some way of fighting mass BL and infestor and I doubt it would affect PvT much because ground protoss in that match up will still be the better choice anyway. It wouldn't matter. The problem is intercepters being rooted by fungal.
Then they could be creative and make it so that interceptors can't be fungaled.
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On October 31 2012 18:47 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 18:05 Talack wrote:
Fungal should only affect biological air units. For the love of god make them break up their death balls with different units rather than mass ling/infestor/brood lord...
Rushing to brood lords by 14-16 minutes should not be viable at all, it's like saying BCs get a 50% reduction in cost/build time and the zerg just has to "deal with it". Units that strong should not be complimented by other units that are effective against everything.
Think I've played like 5-6 tvts over 100 games in the last few days, nobody wants to play terran anymore because of this BS and neither do I. Then how is zerg supposed to be beat a mech army exactly? Hint, there is a reason infestor/brlood lord are used that much. It's the only thing that actually works lategame as zerg.
You're supposed to mix in various amounts of units in order to counter other ones...
Mech armies need to mix in vikings and drop hellions/tanks/thors in order to beat air units, you should do the same obviously...
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Just in my humble opinion, 85% snare would be the magic number.
85% is still a massive snare. 15% of normal movement speed isn't going to save you from infestor/(support) if the support is the right kind of unit to trade effectively in a pitched battle. If the zerg has the predictive ability, timing and the energy to blow, IT backup would probably work in almost all situations, but that's an expensive use of energy.
What 15% will do though is save your vikings, mutas, phoenix, stimmed bioball and stalkers from being chain fungalled, just because it's enough mobility to be able to spread out and reduce the number of units being hit by subsequent casts, and just enough to retreat back towards reinforcements or a better choke.
Would you need to make other changes to compensate? Quite possibly.
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On November 01 2012 04:16 Resistentialism wrote:
Just in my humble opinion, 85% snare would be the magic number.
85% is still a massive snare. 15% of normal movement speed isn't going to save you from infestor/(support) if the support is the right kind of unit to trade effectively in a pitched battle. If the zerg has the predictive ability, timing and the energy to blow, IT backup would probably work in almost all situations, but that's an expensive use of energy.
What 15% will do though is save your vikings, mutas, phoenix, stimmed bioball and stalkers from being chain fungalled, just because it's enough mobility to be able to spread out and reduce the number of units being hit by subsequent casts, and just enough to retreat back towards reinforcements or a better choke.
Would you need to make other changes to compensate? Quite possibly.
I think it should be worse than 85%. I've experimented with 60% and it seems quite good for most tasks still (like killing marines, offering good damage support etc). But I think no matter how you put it, if you cannot punish opponents "clumping mistakes", zerg needs better ground to air or longer range AtA.
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for TvZ late game : What do you think of an EMP which could damage the spell units ( infested terran ) ?
i think a little up of the ghost is the good way to go ( not as OP as they were before snipe nerf ! )
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On November 02 2012 08:08 benKrO71 wrote:
for TvZ late game : What do you think of an EMP which could damage the spell units ( infested terran ) ?
i think a little up of the ghost is the good way to go ( not as OP as they were before snipe nerf ! )
Ghosts have never been op, even before the snipe nerf. Currently they are almost useless against zerg and terran, so a buff would be nice. The fact it costs 200/100 and terran armies are usually minerals intensive is another fact that attributes to nobody using ghosts in any matchup but TvP. On the other hand, the toss and zerg casters (infestor and ht) seem to be used in every matchup. Go figure.
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I am going 10-20 games at a time without seeing another terran opponent these days.
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Maybe make fungal cost 100 energy? would still be 2 fungals per huge fight, but less infested terran spam and third fungal would be more delayed.
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See Alive vs Terious in the GSTL game - I restate my case again-and-again: fungals should not hit air units - there should not be a spell that can change the game in such a drastic manner.
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On November 01 2012 02:36 Big J wrote:
Because I don't think they will do a lot of balance patches for WoL anymore. They are going to:
-) buff the Carrier anyways in HotS
-) buff the Raven anyway in HotS
-) nerf Vortex in HotS
-) may be buffing siege tanks in HotS
-) may be buffing BCs in HotS
So far there is no indication for any of this, right? The only thing they did claim was that they were trying to make mech more viable, but no word about air units. So why do you say "They are going to:" as if it was a matter of fact? They *should do* many of these things, but they dont *have to* ...
On November 01 2012 04:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 04:16 Resistentialism wrote:
Just in my humble opinion, 85% snare would be the magic number.
85% is still a massive snare. 15% of normal movement speed isn't going to save you from infestor/(support) if the support is the right kind of unit to trade effectively in a pitched battle. If the zerg has the predictive ability, timing and the energy to blow, IT backup would probably work in almost all situations, but that's an expensive use of energy.
What 15% will do though is save your vikings, mutas, phoenix, stimmed bioball and stalkers from being chain fungalled, just because it's enough mobility to be able to spread out and reduce the number of units being hit by subsequent casts, and just enough to retreat back towards reinforcements or a better choke.
Would you need to make other changes to compensate? Quite possibly. I think it should be worse than 85%. I've experimented with 60% and it seems quite good for most tasks still (like killing marines, offering good damage support etc). But I think no matter how you put it, if you cannot punish opponents "clumping mistakes", zerg needs better ground to air or longer range AtA.
What about Queens? 7 range AA is pretty massive and the transfusion makes them basically unkillable with just a few units. You cant "have it all in one unit" and ask for a super fast unit with super range and super damage. Take a look at the Terran AA ... the Thor ... and you see that the Queen isnt that terrible as you think it is. It also saves on larvae. For an even better mobility you could even pick up some Queens in an Overlord and transport them to the hotspot.
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EPT
