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On October 31 2012 15:29 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's not, for me anyway a really imbalanced current state of affairs, just pretty stagnant, especially in matches involving Z lately. Hopefully there come some new interesting Terran openers sometime soon, or HoTS switches things up a bit. I'm not one to denigrate pro players, and they do what they have to do to win, but Bl/Infestor 9 times out of 10 non Zerg mirrors just is incredibly stale at this point.
That's what happens when blizzard gives a race 2 units to beat everything.
Queens do extemely well vs all forms of harassment. Infestors are extremely good vs all compositions. It really shouldnt be like this but it is and it makes the matchup extremely difficult for one side because they don't have an answer to everything or any lee-way between compositions.
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infestors need to be fixed, or PvZ and TvZ will stay unplayable.
currently, zerg is playing greed as standard, and P and T are wondering how they can punish it. (They can't)
Thus always playing with an disadvantage.
While the otherway around, Z agression will crush greedstyle of P and T.
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On October 31 2012 15:29 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's not, for me anyway a really imbalanced current state of affairs, just pretty stagnant, especially in matches involving Z lately. Hopefully there come some new interesting Terran openers sometime soon, or HoTS switches things up a bit. I'm not one to denigrate pro players, and they do what they have to do to win, but Bl/Infestor 9 times out of 10 non Zerg mirrors just is incredibly stale at this point.
It's pretty boring unless there's a backstory in the match or there's a truly exceptional player playing. The real devil is that the races are so poorly balanced that we'll never see any interesting map diversity.
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On October 31 2012 16:21 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 15:29 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's not, for me anyway a really imbalanced current state of affairs, just pretty stagnant, especially in matches involving Z lately. Hopefully there come some new interesting Terran openers sometime soon, or HoTS switches things up a bit. I'm not one to denigrate pro players, and they do what they have to do to win, but Bl/Infestor 9 times out of 10 non Zerg mirrors just is incredibly stale at this point. It's pretty boring unless there's a backstory in the match or there's a truly exceptional player playing. The real devil is that the races are so poorly balanced that we'll never see any interesting map diversity.
Its not the races but rather the general tight clumps of units which make them poorly balanced. An easy example:
Marines deal 6 damage in BW and in SC2. In BW you only had few Marines in an area due to the clunky and bump-into-each-other movement and the limited unit selection, but in SC2 you can have maximum density of them. Consequently you have a MUCH higher dps coming from an area in SC2 than you would get in BW ... because there would be fewer Marines in the same space. This higher "troop dps" means that it has to be balance much tighter and Blizzard cant be as flexible with it as they were in BW. Sure they start with "1 unit vs 1 unit comparisons", but that is only one side of the medal.
Due to the tight formations the survivability of big units has been reduced, even though the infantry units deal the same amount of damage. The only slight exception are melee units, which are limited by the surface area, but even there the unlimited unit selection and improved tight movement allows them to close the gap with more units in the same time, which increases the dps again.
As a result of the tight unit movement all the AoE attacks had to be nerfed and thus we have a pitifully weak Siege Tank which isnt as viable as it was in BW.
So yeah, the races are imbalanced, but its not possible to fix that by fiddling with the units combat values but rather by starting at the general movement mechanics, the unit selection and the AoE damage. Maps had to be adjusted for these poor mechanics (which include the production and economic speed boosts), which is why we dont have any more maps with rich mineral patches. Maps with "pillars" for Siege Tanks have also been eliminated. Without any changes to the general mechanics I dont see any "funky maps" having a chance for a comeback, although the general opinion is also problematic, because Desert Oasis was removed from the map pool because people disliked it. Personally I loved it and Kulas Ravine.
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On October 21 2012 16:00 Azzur wrote:
Problem:
Infestors are completely overpowered. They are a counter everything unit and can perform well in any situation and have no weaknesses. Units that "counter" them (e.g. ghosts) are not really hard counters anyways (e.g. they can get fungaled) and are ghosts are not useful in any other situation - making them a 200/100 unit with such a narrow purpose.
In addition, infestors make BL/corrupter insansely overpowered - the one terran solution to them (i.e. vikings) is completely shut down by a fungal. In the end, the endgame of TvZ becomes dodging that one money fungal whilst zerg have many get out of jail cards - for instance, if their army is out of position, infestors can stall by fungals, etc. Actually, there is no terran counter to infestor/BL/corrupter - the terran can only hope for the zerg to mess up.
Another side effect is that infestors become completely overpowered in ZvZ - see Roro vs DRG in GSL Season 4, Code A ro24 where the game became dominated by infestors.
Solution:
Fungals should not hit air units. This will allow air units (e.g. banshees) to counter them. This will also make mutas usable in ZvZ. With the queen buff, zergs already have many options in fighting mutas anyways. Also, in the PvZ matchup, the game won't revolve around the "get that money vortex off" since protoss can make air units to counter the infestors.
Interestingly, blizzard foresaw this problem, and initially wanted to remove the infestor ability to affect air units in a previous patch (1.4 I think?). But zerg qq forced them to revert the change. I don't think any zerg can seriously qq anymore.
Side effects:
None - or maybe there will be more zerg qq'ing. I guess maybe mutas could possibly become too powerful in ZvZ but it's a mirror matchup so it's fine.
I'm reposting my suggestion that I had a few pages back - to me, the problem is very clear - it's infestors - I have a very simply solution to fix the issue and this fix is not even new.
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Fungal should only affect biological air units. For the love of god make them break up their death balls with different units rather than mass ling/infestor/brood lord...
Rushing to brood lords by 14-16 minutes should not be viable at all, it's like saying BCs get a 50% reduction in cost/build time and the zerg just has to "deal with it". Units that strong should not be complimented by other units that are effective against everything.
Think I've played like 5-6 tvts over 100 games in the last few days, nobody wants to play terran anymore because of this BS and neither do I.
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On October 31 2012 17:13 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 16:00 Azzur wrote:
Problem:
Infestors are completely overpowered. They are a counter everything unit and can perform well in any situation and have no weaknesses. Units that "counter" them (e.g. ghosts) are not really hard counters anyways (e.g. they can get fungaled) and are ghosts are not useful in any other situation - making them a 200/100 unit with such a narrow purpose.
In addition, infestors make BL/corrupter insansely overpowered - the one terran solution to them (i.e. vikings) is completely shut down by a fungal. In the end, the endgame of TvZ becomes dodging that one money fungal whilst zerg have many get out of jail cards - for instance, if their army is out of position, infestors can stall by fungals, etc. Actually, there is no terran counter to infestor/BL/corrupter - the terran can only hope for the zerg to mess up.
Another side effect is that infestors become completely overpowered in ZvZ - see Roro vs DRG in GSL Season 4, Code A ro24 where the game became dominated by infestors.
Solution:
Fungals should not hit air units. This will allow air units (e.g. banshees) to counter them. This will also make mutas usable in ZvZ. With the queen buff, zergs already have many options in fighting mutas anyways. Also, in the PvZ matchup, the game won't revolve around the "get that money vortex off" since protoss can make air units to counter the infestors.
Interestingly, blizzard foresaw this problem, and initially wanted to remove the infestor ability to affect air units in a previous patch (1.4 I think?). But zerg qq forced them to revert the change. I don't think any zerg can seriously qq anymore.
Side effects:
None - or maybe there will be more zerg qq'ing. I guess maybe mutas could possibly become too powerful in ZvZ but it's a mirror matchup so it's fine. I'm reposting my suggestion that I had a few pages back - to me, the problem is very clear - it's infestors - I have a very simply solution to fix the issue and this fix is not even new.
That is all nice but if you adjust infestors like that then what anti air does zerg have exactly?
You are basically forcing them to go muta's every single game. If you would remove infestor air attack you need to buff something else instead, the best would be to buff the hydralisk since atm they are useless.
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On October 31 2012 18:05 Talack wrote:
Fungal should only affect biological air units. For the love of god make them break up their death balls with different units rather than mass ling/infestor/brood lord...
Rushing to brood lords by 14-16 minutes should not be viable at all, it's like saying BCs get a 50% reduction in cost/build time and the zerg just has to "deal with it". Units that strong should not be complimented by other units that are effective against everything.
Think I've played like 5-6 tvts over 100 games in the last few days, nobody wants to play terran anymore because of this BS and neither do I.
Then how is zerg supposed to be beat a mech army exactly? Hint, there is a reason infestor/brlood lord are used that much.
It's the only thing that actually works lategame as zerg.
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On October 31 2012 18:47 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 18:05 Talack wrote:
Fungal should only affect biological air units. For the love of god make them break up their death balls with different units rather than mass ling/infestor/brood lord...
Rushing to brood lords by 14-16 minutes should not be viable at all, it's like saying BCs get a 50% reduction in cost/build time and the zerg just has to "deal with it". Units that strong should not be complimented by other units that are effective against everything.
Think I've played like 5-6 tvts over 100 games in the last few days, nobody wants to play terran anymore because of this BS and neither do I. Then how is zerg supposed to be beat a mech army exactly? Hint, there is a reason infestor/brlood lord are used that much. It's the only thing that actually works lategame as zerg.
It is really not the ONLY thing. But its the BEST thing.
Like Ghost was the "only" Terran lategame unit vs Zerg. It obviously wasnt. But it was the best.
Ultralisk + Infestors / Roaches + Infestors are viable aswell. But there absolutley no reason to go for that when Brood Lords are so much better.
Check some Stephano replays vs Lucifron on Ohana from WCS-Europe. Chrushing maxed mech with Ultra-Infestor easy peasy.
Saying BL/Infestor is the only viable options is just not true. But it looks like it because Zerg players dont try something else, because there is no need too. Why go alternative strategies when one obviously is stronger than all other alternatives?
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On October 31 2012 18:45 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 17:13 Azzur wrote:On October 21 2012 16:00 Azzur wrote:
Problem:
Infestors are completely overpowered. They are a counter everything unit and can perform well in any situation and have no weaknesses. Units that "counter" them (e.g. ghosts) are not really hard counters anyways (e.g. they can get fungaled) and are ghosts are not useful in any other situation - making them a 200/100 unit with such a narrow purpose.
In addition, infestors make BL/corrupter insansely overpowered - the one terran solution to them (i.e. vikings) is completely shut down by a fungal. In the end, the endgame of TvZ becomes dodging that one money fungal whilst zerg have many get out of jail cards - for instance, if their army is out of position, infestors can stall by fungals, etc. Actually, there is no terran counter to infestor/BL/corrupter - the terran can only hope for the zerg to mess up.
Another side effect is that infestors become completely overpowered in ZvZ - see Roro vs DRG in GSL Season 4, Code A ro24 where the game became dominated by infestors.
Solution:
Fungals should not hit air units. This will allow air units (e.g. banshees) to counter them. This will also make mutas usable in ZvZ. With the queen buff, zergs already have many options in fighting mutas anyways. Also, in the PvZ matchup, the game won't revolve around the "get that money vortex off" since protoss can make air units to counter the infestors.
Interestingly, blizzard foresaw this problem, and initially wanted to remove the infestor ability to affect air units in a previous patch (1.4 I think?). But zerg qq forced them to revert the change. I don't think any zerg can seriously qq anymore.
Side effects:
None - or maybe there will be more zerg qq'ing. I guess maybe mutas could possibly become too powerful in ZvZ but it's a mirror matchup so it's fine. I'm reposting my suggestion that I had a few pages back - to me, the problem is very clear - it's infestors - I have a very simply solution to fix the issue and this fix is not even new. That is all nice but if you adjust infestors like that then what anti air does zerg have exactly? You are basically forcing them to go muta's every single game. If you would remove infestor air attack you need to buff something else instead, the best would be to buff the hydralisk since atm they are useless.
Infested terrans are pretty OP still, and they attack air just fine. Also Corruptors. Hydras are bad but eh, they attack air too. Mutas. Spores. Queens.
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On October 31 2012 20:35 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 18:45 Assirra wrote:On October 31 2012 17:13 Azzur wrote:On October 21 2012 16:00 Azzur wrote:
Problem:
Infestors are completely overpowered. They are a counter everything unit and can perform well in any situation and have no weaknesses. Units that "counter" them (e.g. ghosts) are not really hard counters anyways (e.g. they can get fungaled) and are ghosts are not useful in any other situation - making them a 200/100 unit with such a narrow purpose.
In addition, infestors make BL/corrupter insansely overpowered - the one terran solution to them (i.e. vikings) is completely shut down by a fungal. In the end, the endgame of TvZ becomes dodging that one money fungal whilst zerg have many get out of jail cards - for instance, if their army is out of position, infestors can stall by fungals, etc. Actually, there is no terran counter to infestor/BL/corrupter - the terran can only hope for the zerg to mess up.
Another side effect is that infestors become completely overpowered in ZvZ - see Roro vs DRG in GSL Season 4, Code A ro24 where the game became dominated by infestors.
Solution:
Fungals should not hit air units. This will allow air units (e.g. banshees) to counter them. This will also make mutas usable in ZvZ. With the queen buff, zergs already have many options in fighting mutas anyways. Also, in the PvZ matchup, the game won't revolve around the "get that money vortex off" since protoss can make air units to counter the infestors.
Interestingly, blizzard foresaw this problem, and initially wanted to remove the infestor ability to affect air units in a previous patch (1.4 I think?). But zerg qq forced them to revert the change. I don't think any zerg can seriously qq anymore.
Side effects:
None - or maybe there will be more zerg qq'ing. I guess maybe mutas could possibly become too powerful in ZvZ but it's a mirror matchup so it's fine. I'm reposting my suggestion that I had a few pages back - to me, the problem is very clear - it's infestors - I have a very simply solution to fix the issue and this fix is not even new. That is all nice but if you adjust infestors like that then what anti air does zerg have exactly? You are basically forcing them to go muta's every single game. If you would remove infestor air attack you need to buff something else instead, the best would be to buff the hydralisk since atm they are useless. Infested terrans are pretty OP still, and they attack air just fine. Also Corruptors. Hydras are bad but eh, they attack air too. Mutas. Spores. Queens.
Ok.
Infested terrans require fungals as well or the flying units simply fly away since they are slow as hell
Corrupters require spire which was my point when i said muta's.
Hydra's are shit
Muta's are exactly my point
Spores and queens are only in your own based except in the very late game when you get creep all over the place.
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On October 31 2012 20:27 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 18:47 Assirra wrote:On October 31 2012 18:05 Talack wrote:
Fungal should only affect biological air units. For the love of god make them break up their death balls with different units rather than mass ling/infestor/brood lord...
Rushing to brood lords by 14-16 minutes should not be viable at all, it's like saying BCs get a 50% reduction in cost/build time and the zerg just has to "deal with it". Units that strong should not be complimented by other units that are effective against everything.
Think I've played like 5-6 tvts over 100 games in the last few days, nobody wants to play terran anymore because of this BS and neither do I. Then how is zerg supposed to be beat a mech army exactly? Hint, there is a reason infestor/brlood lord are used that much. It's the only thing that actually works lategame as zerg. It is really not the ONLY thing. But its the BEST thing. Like Ghost was the "only" Terran lategame unit vs Zerg. It obviously wasnt. But it was the best. Ultralisk + Infestors / Roaches + Infestors are viable aswell. But there absolutley no reason to go for that when Brood Lords are so much better. Check some Stephano replays vs Lucifron on Ohana from WCS-Europe. Chrushing maxed mech with Ultra-Infestor easy peasy. Saying BL/Infestor is the only viable options is just not true. But it looks like it because Zerg players dont try something else, because there is no need too. Why go alternative strategies when one obviously is stronger than all other alternatives?
Roach/Infestor is not viable in the lategame. Not even talking about endgame.
Ultra/Infestor is viable, but it's strength is very map dependend. The Lucifron Stephano game you are most likely talking about was Ohana. A map that is said to be good for map, but is actually really terrible for endgame mech, because you shouldn't be able to get that 5th base. And Stephano didn't just crush it "easy peasy". He had an ultralisk concave over the whole upper side of the map, engaged the 5th, forced lucifron to move there and crushed his (latesiegeing) tank army on open field with his concave. And as far as I remember Lucifron was not even maxed.
On other maps (like Daybreak or Antiga), where you don't have the luxury of getting half of the map while denying bases from your opponent), you cannot do this, because the Terran can just do some 5base turtle in which he maxes on Mech in a good position (beats all ground including ultras), builds turrets rings (beats drops and nydus) and then switches into BC/Raven, Nuke harass, 20Orbital, mass Fortress styles of play. And the only way to combat an established Terran is Broodlords.
Broodlords and Infestors are keyunits because they are the only ranged options zerg has in the lategame and there are simply maps on which you dont get the surface area to attack a turtling, ranged player on a lot of bases with zerglings/banelings/ultras or very supplyinefficent units like roaches/hydras/mutas.
And you know, it's not like noone wants to go for something else. But it's quite stupid to go Ultralisk, when you see your opponent is only massing tanks and thors (and banshees) - so only ground superiority units - and then go for ground units, when you simply have the option to go air. It's not different in TvT at all. If an enemy Terran goes Mech for too long, people go for BCs and banshees and don't start to go for more factories, more orbitals, more tanks and if Mech ever starts to beat Protoss ground, it will be exactly the same story in TvP. You know, you want a ground superiority army? In ZvT you can go for it. But deal with the fact, that people with a brain are going to go air against it every game until you are so overpreparing for air, that people are going to go for overwhealming amounts of ground (like mass roach builds, like ultralisk timings) and so on. That's what an interesting dynamic is.
+ Show Spoiler +
That's not saying that the Infestor isn't stupidly powerful - like the marine (anybody just watching GSL? Artosis: "I want that tag on the marine changed from "general purposed combat unit" to "all purpose combat unit"). But there is no way to nerf BL/Infestor by that degree, that a lot of people want it to be nerfed. Especially not without buffing other zerg options.
There needs to be a siege option for zerg, and with 9range vikings and 13range siege tanks on Terran, and 9range storms, 9range Colossi, 6range+8range blink stalkers, those need to be quite longranged - and therefore hard to attack into - as well.
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On October 31 2012 21:04 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 20:35 Salteador Neo wrote:On October 31 2012 18:45 Assirra wrote:On October 31 2012 17:13 Azzur wrote:On October 21 2012 16:00 Azzur wrote:
Problem:
Infestors are completely overpowered. They are a counter everything unit and can perform well in any situation and have no weaknesses. Units that "counter" them (e.g. ghosts) are not really hard counters anyways (e.g. they can get fungaled) and are ghosts are not useful in any other situation - making them a 200/100 unit with such a narrow purpose.
In addition, infestors make BL/corrupter insansely overpowered - the one terran solution to them (i.e. vikings) is completely shut down by a fungal. In the end, the endgame of TvZ becomes dodging that one money fungal whilst zerg have many get out of jail cards - for instance, if their army is out of position, infestors can stall by fungals, etc. Actually, there is no terran counter to infestor/BL/corrupter - the terran can only hope for the zerg to mess up.
Another side effect is that infestors become completely overpowered in ZvZ - see Roro vs DRG in GSL Season 4, Code A ro24 where the game became dominated by infestors.
Solution:
Fungals should not hit air units. This will allow air units (e.g. banshees) to counter them. This will also make mutas usable in ZvZ. With the queen buff, zergs already have many options in fighting mutas anyways. Also, in the PvZ matchup, the game won't revolve around the "get that money vortex off" since protoss can make air units to counter the infestors.
Interestingly, blizzard foresaw this problem, and initially wanted to remove the infestor ability to affect air units in a previous patch (1.4 I think?). But zerg qq forced them to revert the change. I don't think any zerg can seriously qq anymore.
Side effects:
None - or maybe there will be more zerg qq'ing. I guess maybe mutas could possibly become too powerful in ZvZ but it's a mirror matchup so it's fine. I'm reposting my suggestion that I had a few pages back - to me, the problem is very clear - it's infestors - I have a very simply solution to fix the issue and this fix is not even new. That is all nice but if you adjust infestors like that then what anti air does zerg have exactly? You are basically forcing them to go muta's every single game. If you would remove infestor air attack you need to buff something else instead, the best would be to buff the hydralisk since atm they are useless. Infested terrans are pretty OP still, and they attack air just fine. Also Corruptors. Hydras are bad but eh, they attack air too. Mutas. Spores. Queens. Ok. Infested terrans require fungals as well or the flying units simply fly away since they are slow as hell Corrupters require spire which was my point when i said muta's. Hydra's are shit Muta's are exactly my point Spores and queens are only in your own based except in the very late game when you get creep all over the place.
So we agree that zerg has a shitload of varied AA and each of those can counter some air units, but people just mass infestor because it's the best unit at it?
God forbid if zergs would need to get a spire to techswitch in case the opponent went air. Not like protoss/terran air is that scary anyway.
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On October 31 2012 21:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 20:27 Glorfindel! wrote:On October 31 2012 18:47 Assirra wrote:On October 31 2012 18:05 Talack wrote:
Fungal should only affect biological air units. For the love of god make them break up their death balls with different units rather than mass ling/infestor/brood lord...
Rushing to brood lords by 14-16 minutes should not be viable at all, it's like saying BCs get a 50% reduction in cost/build time and the zerg just has to "deal with it". Units that strong should not be complimented by other units that are effective against everything.
Think I've played like 5-6 tvts over 100 games in the last few days, nobody wants to play terran anymore because of this BS and neither do I. Then how is zerg supposed to be beat a mech army exactly? Hint, there is a reason infestor/brlood lord are used that much. It's the only thing that actually works lategame as zerg. It is really not the ONLY thing. But its the BEST thing. Like Ghost was the "only" Terran lategame unit vs Zerg. It obviously wasnt. But it was the best. Ultralisk + Infestors / Roaches + Infestors are viable aswell. But there absolutley no reason to go for that when Brood Lords are so much better. Check some Stephano replays vs Lucifron on Ohana from WCS-Europe. Chrushing maxed mech with Ultra-Infestor easy peasy. Saying BL/Infestor is the only viable options is just not true. But it looks like it because Zerg players dont try something else, because there is no need too. Why go alternative strategies when one obviously is stronger than all other alternatives? Roach/Infestor is not viable in the lategame. Not even talking about endgame. Ultra/Infestor is viable, but it's strength is very map dependend. The Lucifron Stephano game you are most likely talking about was Ohana. A map that is said to be good for map, but is actually really terrible for endgame mech, because you shouldn't be able to get that 5th base. And Stephano didn't just crush it "easy peasy". He had an ultralisk concave over the whole upper side of the map, engaged the 5th, forced lucifron to move there and crushed his (latesiegeing) tank army on open field with his concave. And as far as I remember Lucifron was not even maxed. On other maps (like Daybreak or Antiga), where you don't have the luxury of getting half of the map while denying bases from your opponent), you cannot do this, because the Terran can just do some 5base turtle in which he maxes on Mech in a good position (beats all ground including ultras), builds turrets rings (beats drops and nydus) and then switches into BC/Raven, Nuke harass, 20Orbital, mass Fortress styles of play. And the only way to combat an established Terran is Broodlords. Broodlords and Infestors are keyunits because they are the only ranged options zerg has in the lategame and there are simply maps on which you dont get the surface area to attack a turtling, ranged player on a lot of bases with zerglings/banelings/ultras or very supplyinefficent units like roaches/hydras/mutas. And you know, it's not like noone wants to go for something else. But it's quite stupid to go Ultralisk, when you see your opponent is only massing tanks and thors (and banshees) - so only ground superiority units - and then go for ground units, when you simply have the option to go air. It's not different in TvT at all. If an enemy Terran goes Mech for too long, people go for BCs and banshees and don't start to go for more factories, more orbitals, more tanks and if Mech ever starts to beat Protoss ground, it will be exactly the same story in TvP. You know, you want a ground superiority army? In ZvT you can go for it. But deal with the fact, that people with a brain are going to go air against it every game until you are so overpreparing for air, that people are going to go for overwhealming amounts of ground (like mass roach builds, like ultralisk timings) and so on. That's what an interesting dynamic is. + Show Spoiler +
That's not saying that the Infestor isn't stupidly powerful - like the marine (anybody just watching GSL? Artosis: "I want that tag on the marine changed from "general purposed combat unit" to "all purpose combat unit"). But there is no way to nerf BL/Infestor by that degree, that a lot of people want it to be nerfed. Especially not without buffing other zerg options.
There needs to be a siege option for zerg, and with 9range vikings and 13range siege tanks on Terran, and 9range storms, 9range Colossi, 6range+8range blink stalkers, those need to be quite longranged - and therefore hard to attack into - as well.
So we are basicly saying the same thing? Its sad that Zerg best option is a unit comp as boring as BL/Infestor because the other choices are to bad / BL/Infestor are to strong?
I mean, look at Hero vs Soulkey now. 39 Infestors? Broods and Corruptors 
So incredibly boring. Im not blaming Soulkey for it. Its the game designers fault.
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The problem doesn't lie in broodlords, the problem doesn't lie in ultralisks or Corruptors. The problem is the infestor. A "supportive" Unit (that's what spellcasters should be in RTS games) that is massed in standard play in all 3 matchups is definately a problem and very likely imbalanced/overpowered. Ghosts were correctly nerfed hard because they were massed in one matchup as a "counter everything"-unit. Now we have the same problem with the infestor in all 3 matchups. I'd really like to see a reaction from Blizzard here - at least with HotS!
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On October 31 2012 22:43 TeeTS wrote:
The problem doesn't lie in broodlords, the problem doesn't lie in ultralisks or Corruptors. The problem is the infestor. A "supportive" Unit (that's what spellcasters should be in RTS games) that is massed in standard play in all 3 matchups is definately a problem and very likely imbalanced/overpowered. Ghosts were correctly nerfed hard because they were massed in one matchup as a "counter everything"-unit. Now we have the same problem with the infestor in all 3 matchups. I'd really like to see a reaction from Blizzard here - at least with HotS!
Yeah i agree. When a the other units become support units to the caster, then we have a problem. They counter everything on the ground and in the air. Its so obvious to everyone, and i doubt blizzard doesnt know it. They must have made a decision to not do any changes to WoL, hoping everything will be fine when HoTS comes out. This approach makes me angry. Blizzard plz give a damn about the game we are playing NOW.
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On October 31 2012 23:10 SlixSC wrote:Just calculated the win rate in Korea for October (including today's matches): TvZ: 36% T - 64% ZTvP: 48% T - 52% P ZvP: 48% P - 52% Z http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/games (+ matches played today) make of it what you want
JUST MAKE RAVENS AMIRITE?
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On October 31 2012 22:50 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 22:43 TeeTS wrote:
The problem doesn't lie in broodlords, the problem doesn't lie in ultralisks or Corruptors. The problem is the infestor. A "supportive" Unit (that's what spellcasters should be in RTS games) that is massed in standard play in all 3 matchups is definately a problem and very likely imbalanced/overpowered. Ghosts were correctly nerfed hard because they were massed in one matchup as a "counter everything"-unit. Now we have the same problem with the infestor in all 3 matchups. I'd really like to see a reaction from Blizzard here - at least with HotS! Yeah i agree. When a the other units become support units to the caster, then we have a problem. They counter everything on the ground and in the air. Its so obvious to everyone, and i doubt blizzard doesnt know it. They must have made a decision to not do any changes to WoL, hoping everything will be fine when HoTS comes out. This approach makes me angry. Blizzard plz give a damn about the game we are playing NOW.
I also think that they do not want to change WoL any more; the balance of WoL is quite good if we only look at winrates, and probably Blizzard cannot hope for more. Everything that has to be done about PvZ would imply changes that would completely throw off the metagame for months, so that we probably will not see whether the game is really better until HotS arrives and no one continues playing WoL anyway.
Additionally, when patching e.g. mothership and infestor, Blizzard would probably have to make the same changes in the HoTs beta, too, while their original intention is to at first test out and fit in the new units.
Thus, I think that Blizzard is probably right to not patch infestor and mothership now, although I would like to have some changes.
And, well, as a small remark: I remember a patch where blizzard wanted to make fungal not hit air units, and the community prevented this change by complaining loudly. Would the game probably be better now if we had not complained (and maybe Blizzard had nerfed vortex at some point of time)?
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On October 31 2012 23:23 opus55 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 22:50 Fjodorov wrote:On October 31 2012 22:43 TeeTS wrote:
The problem doesn't lie in broodlords, the problem doesn't lie in ultralisks or Corruptors. The problem is the infestor. A "supportive" Unit (that's what spellcasters should be in RTS games) that is massed in standard play in all 3 matchups is definately a problem and very likely imbalanced/overpowered. Ghosts were correctly nerfed hard because they were massed in one matchup as a "counter everything"-unit. Now we have the same problem with the infestor in all 3 matchups. I'd really like to see a reaction from Blizzard here - at least with HotS! Yeah i agree. When a the other units become support units to the caster, then we have a problem. They counter everything on the ground and in the air. Its so obvious to everyone, and i doubt blizzard doesnt know it. They must have made a decision to not do any changes to WoL, hoping everything will be fine when HoTS comes out. This approach makes me angry. Blizzard plz give a damn about the game we are playing NOW. I also think that they do not want to change WoL any more; the balance of WoL is quite good if we only look at winrates, and probably Blizzard cannot hope for more. Everything that has to be done about PvZ would imply changes that would completely throw off the metagame for months, so that we probably will not see whether the game is really better until HotS arrives and no one continues playing WoL anyway. Additionally, when patching e.g. mothership and infestor, Blizzard would probably have to make the same changes in the HoTs beta, too, while their original intention is to at first test out and fit in the new units. Thus, I think that Blizzard is probably right to not patch infestor and mothership now, although I would like to have some changes. And, well, as a small remark: I remember a patch where blizzard wanted to make fungal not hit air units, and the community prevented this change by complaining loudly. Would the game probably be better now if we had not complained (and maybe Blizzard had nerfed vortex at some point of time)?
See my previous posts on the solution to infestors as a support for your post:
Solution:
Fungals should not hit air units. This will allow air units (e.g. banshees) to counter them. This will also make mutas usable in ZvZ. With the queen buff, zergs already have many options in fighting mutas anyways. Also, in the PvZ matchup, the game won't revolve around the "get that money vortex off" since protoss can make air units to counter the infestors.
Interestingly, blizzard foresaw this problem, and initially wanted to remove the infestor ability to affect air units in a previous patch (1.4 I think?). But zerg qq forced them to revert the change. I don't think any zerg can seriously qq anymore.
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EPT
