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On October 31 2012 07:40 monkybone wrote:
He did mistakes, but not the type of mistakes that makes it reasonable for Zerg to just utterly crush that attack in such a situation. Artosis didn't point out any glaring errors while it was going on, he was thoroughly surprised of the outcome. In shock, even. So I just don't agree with the fairness of the outcome while considering both the economic risk the Zerg took and happys execution.
Artosis was just as shocked as wolf and khaldor were when nestea just crushed spartas 1 base aggression on three base with nothing but drones and queens. The problem is that the principles of risk doesnt apply properly to the Zerg matchup. Insane greed cannot be appropriately punished.
Where did you see this game of protoss? I must know the reference before I can comment on that.
Hero vs MMA code a on entombed. I think it was season 3.
I agree that zerg is able to get away with greed much better then terran is but you use bad examples of games. Nestea had a pretty good hold while sparta's execution was poor and there is a reason why you rarely see 3/4 rax allins off 1 base.
If happy had gone right into the main instead of dicking around a bit and if he had pulled 6 extra scvs from his main instead of 3 and he still lost then you could complain about that game.
Also the better game from that group to complain about is how barely hack won vs roro in game 3 when roro had 6 ultras and 6 lings in a nydus for 2/3rds of the game and overall made a lot of poor moves.
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The lesson learned from happy versus roro was to always scout, no matter what. You don't need to go to the third. Going into the main and seeing the pool was absurdly late should've triggered him to go into the main. With decent micro that should have resulted in a fast gg. even if roro survived, the 3rd hatch wouldn't even have come into play as he wouldn't have had the resources needed to produce from it.
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On October 31 2012 07:33 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:24 monkybone wrote:On October 31 2012 07:20 xPabt wrote:
Happy never saw that it was 3 hatch before pool and so he was shooting at the natural hatchery for so long. by the time he finally went for the main the defense was up for roro. He should have just been happy to kill the other 2 hatcheries. If he had scouted the third he could have likely ended the game by pushing the main and not wasting time at the natural. You're missing the point.... 11/11 have killed zergs on 2 hatch before, of course its possible to kill a zerg on 3 hatch. But that it is even possible to defend against a reasonably executed 11/11 with 3 hatch before pool is a sign of a major flaw in TvZ. Zerg just have too easy of a time defending against anything. This was just a comical illustration of that fact. I'm only saying that the happy vs roro game is a terrible example. Happy made a bunch of errors while roro didn't past the build order selection. I've seen Terran hold a 4 gate proxied warp prism allin with 3 CC before extra barracks. Is protoss aggression vs terran underpowered? If you want to make arguements for terran aggresion being too weak find better examples.
It's not about this example, it's simply the way it is, tvz is broken and if anyone disagree, he has to be blind. The greedy play of zergs became standart and zergs become even more greedy and terran can't stop it. Terran runs out of options. Zerg should get weaker queens again and zerg should be scared by hellion runbys and 11/11 rax. Zerg should build roaches again to stop hellions and not mass queens, wich support your production, spread creep and defend with ease against ground and air all ins.
Give queens 3 range and TvZ will be fine again, not to mention that it doesn't affects PvZ.
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On October 31 2012 07:54 WeRRa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:33 xPabt wrote:On October 31 2012 07:24 monkybone wrote:On October 31 2012 07:20 xPabt wrote:
Happy never saw that it was 3 hatch before pool and so he was shooting at the natural hatchery for so long. by the time he finally went for the main the defense was up for roro. He should have just been happy to kill the other 2 hatcheries. If he had scouted the third he could have likely ended the game by pushing the main and not wasting time at the natural. You're missing the point.... 11/11 have killed zergs on 2 hatch before, of course its possible to kill a zerg on 3 hatch. But that it is even possible to defend against a reasonably executed 11/11 with 3 hatch before pool is a sign of a major flaw in TvZ. Zerg just have too easy of a time defending against anything. This was just a comical illustration of that fact. I'm only saying that the happy vs roro game is a terrible example. Happy made a bunch of errors while roro didn't past the build order selection. I've seen Terran hold a 4 gate proxied warp prism allin with 3 CC before extra barracks. Is protoss aggression vs terran underpowered? If you want to make arguements for terran aggresion being too weak find better examples. It's not about this example, it's simply the way it is, tvz is broken and if anyone disagree, he has to be blind. The greedy play of zergs became standart and zergs become even more greedy and terran can't stop it. Terran runs out of options. Zerg should get weaker queens again and zerg should be scared by hellion runbys and 11/11 rax. Zerg should build roaches again to stop hellions and not mass queens, wich support your production, spread creep and defend with ease against ground and air all ins. Give queens 3 range and TvZ will be fine again, not to mention that it doesn't affects PvZ.
But it breaks ZvZ..
Reverting the queen is not the answer. The trend in TvZ before the queen-patch was 3-CCs vs roach-bling all-ins. Terran got to play greedy while zergs had to wait for the 9-minute 3rd while the 4 hellions in front of the Z natural stopped all zerg activity on the map. It was not a balanced match-up then. It may still not be, though it is hard to see the problem if focusing solely on Korean results. In any case, it is no worse for terran now than it used to be for zerg.
Remember MMA with a close to 80% TvZ win record while the best ZvT-player, DRG, couldn't break 60% in ZvT?
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If you revert the queen change the matchup will be broken towards terran. Banshee play was just starting to come in before the patch and zergs couldn't take the fast thirds they can now because hellions could outmicro queens. If we went to the old queen every terran would still go helion banshee 3cc because it would be even better and zergs would just get rolled by 2-2 pushes from the terran because their economy was so delayed.
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On October 31 2012 08:13 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:09 m0ck wrote:
Reverting the queen is not the answer. The trend in TvZ before the queen-patch was 3-CCs vs roach-bling all-ins. Terran got to play greedy while zergs had to wait for the 9-minute 3rd while the 4 hellions in front of the Z natural stopped all zerg activity on the map. It was not a balanced match-up then. It may still not be, though it is hard to see the problem if focusing solely on Korean results. In anyt case, itis no worse for terran now than it used to be for zerg.
Remember MMA with a close to 80% TvZ win record while the best ZvT-player, DRG, couldn't break 60% in ZvT? FE'ing in TvZ was not yet standard meta before the queen patch, it was still more common with reactor hellion openings into CC. Yes, this gave map control, which was the saving grace of the matchup. Terran could deny a third, and deny creep. This made the matchup more engaging in the midgame, terran had more options. It was the most balanced matchups of them all.
You are quite simply wrong. You're recalling an idea about TvZ, not how it actually played out. Go back and watch some matches from the time, I think you would be surprised.
It was the most balanced match-up in the game in which terran always won in the end.
*Obviously exaggerated, but at the code-S level it was pretty close.
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On October 31 2012 08:19 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:13 monkybone wrote:On October 31 2012 08:09 m0ck wrote:
Reverting the queen is not the answer. The trend in TvZ before the queen-patch was 3-CCs vs roach-bling all-ins. Terran got to play greedy while zergs had to wait for the 9-minute 3rd while the 4 hellions in front of the Z natural stopped all zerg activity on the map. It was not a balanced match-up then. It may still not be, though it is hard to see the problem if focusing solely on Korean results. In anyt case, itis no worse for terran now than it used to be for zerg.
Remember MMA with a close to 80% TvZ win record while the best ZvT-player, DRG, couldn't break 60% in ZvT? FE'ing in TvZ was not yet standard meta before the queen patch, it was still more common with reactor hellion openings into CC. Yes, this gave map control, which was the saving grace of the matchup. Terran could deny a third, and deny creep. This made the matchup more engaging in the midgame, terran had more options. It was the most balanced matchups of them all. You are quite simply wrong. You're recalling an idea about TvZ, not how it actually played out. Go back and watch some matches from the time, I think you would be surprised. It was the most balanced match-up in the game in which terran always won in the end.
Are you kidding? TvZ winrate was 50.1% in Korea.
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On October 31 2012 08:23 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:19 m0ck wrote:On October 31 2012 08:13 monkybone wrote:On October 31 2012 08:09 m0ck wrote:
Reverting the queen is not the answer. The trend in TvZ before the queen-patch was 3-CCs vs roach-bling all-ins. Terran got to play greedy while zergs had to wait for the 9-minute 3rd while the 4 hellions in front of the Z natural stopped all zerg activity on the map. It was not a balanced match-up then. It may still not be, though it is hard to see the problem if focusing solely on Korean results. In anyt case, itis no worse for terran now than it used to be for zerg.
Remember MMA with a close to 80% TvZ win record while the best ZvT-player, DRG, couldn't break 60% in ZvT? FE'ing in TvZ was not yet standard meta before the queen patch, it was still more common with reactor hellion openings into CC. Yes, this gave map control, which was the saving grace of the matchup. Terran could deny a third, and deny creep. This made the matchup more engaging in the midgame, terran had more options. It was the most balanced matchups of them all. You are quite simply wrong. You're recalling an idea about TvZ, not how it actually played out. Go back and watch some matches from the time, I think you would be surprised. It was the most balanced match-up in the game in which terran always won in the end. I'm not asking to turn back the time. And I think you are looking a bit too far into the past. I'm talking about the period before the patch hit, the state of TvZ was on an all time high, Zergs were doing quite well in the matchup despite the metagame being advantageous to Terrans, and catching up on that. We've yet to see the converse after the patch, even though everyone proclaim that Terrans were going to catch up after a month. But we're still left with a massive underrepresentation of Terrans in most tournaments.
Well, it all gets a bit muddled when looking back, that is for sure. My memory of the time preceding the queen-patch was a silly amount of roach-bling all-ins (to counter 3CCs) and of the top code-S terrans (almost) always winning vs zerg. I don't think the balance was terrible before the queen-patch, but then, I don't think the balance is terrible now (the aesthetics of play aside).
To my mind, terran has had a fair adjustment upwards in how much APM it takes to achieve the same level of results (there were never any zerg goody or sjow). All-ins are worse (though 2-rax, mass hellions and marauder-hellions still win games) and because of the relatively worse economy for terran vs zerg, turtling to an upgrade-dependent timing through a defensively achieved superior economy is much less effective for terran (and more so for zerg).
I think those changes are all fine. The 'ultimate' army of Z is probably too strong (and also immobile), but you have to be very careful when balancing the composition. A less strong end-point for zerg would encourage more engagements earlier in the game, but could also result in terrans turtling instead - and zergs generally can't break that without BLs.
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On October 31 2012 08:57 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:23 monkybone wrote:On October 31 2012 08:19 m0ck wrote:On October 31 2012 08:13 monkybone wrote:On October 31 2012 08:09 m0ck wrote:
Reverting the queen is not the answer. The trend in TvZ before the queen-patch was 3-CCs vs roach-bling all-ins. Terran got to play greedy while zergs had to wait for the 9-minute 3rd while the 4 hellions in front of the Z natural stopped all zerg activity on the map. It was not a balanced match-up then. It may still not be, though it is hard to see the problem if focusing solely on Korean results. In anyt case, itis no worse for terran now than it used to be for zerg.
Remember MMA with a close to 80% TvZ win record while the best ZvT-player, DRG, couldn't break 60% in ZvT? FE'ing in TvZ was not yet standard meta before the queen patch, it was still more common with reactor hellion openings into CC. Yes, this gave map control, which was the saving grace of the matchup. Terran could deny a third, and deny creep. This made the matchup more engaging in the midgame, terran had more options. It was the most balanced matchups of them all. You are quite simply wrong. You're recalling an idea about TvZ, not how it actually played out. Go back and watch some matches from the time, I think you would be surprised. It was the most balanced match-up in the game in which terran always won in the end. I'm not asking to turn back the time. And I think you are looking a bit too far into the past. I'm talking about the period before the patch hit, the state of TvZ was on an all time high, Zergs were doing quite well in the matchup despite the metagame being advantageous to Terrans, and catching up on that. We've yet to see the converse after the patch, even though everyone proclaim that Terrans were going to catch up after a month. But we're still left with a massive underrepresentation of Terrans in most tournaments. Well, it all gets a bit muddled when looking back, that is for sure. My memory of the time preceding the queen-patch was a silly amount of roach-bling all-ins (to counter 3CCs) and of the top code-S terrans (almost) always winning vs zerg. I don't think the balance was terrible before the queen-patch, but then, I don't think the balance is terrible now (the aesthetics of play aside). To my mind, terran has had a fair adjustment upwards in how much APM it takes to achieve the same level of results (there were never any zerg goody or sjow). All-ins are worse (though 2-rax, mass hellions and marauder-hellions still win games) and because of the relatively worse economy for terran vs zerg, turtling to an upgrade-dependent timing through a defensively achieved superior economy is much less effective for terran (and more so for zerg). I think those changes are all fine. The 'ultimate' army of Z is probably too strong (and also immobile), but you have to be very careful when balancing the composition. A less strong end-point for zerg would encourage more engagements earlier in the game, but could also result in terrans turtling instead - and zergs generally can't break that without BLs.
I'm pretty sure DRG won a GSL right before the Queen patch hit. If that's not indicative of Zerg being fine in Code S, then nothing is. I remember MKP and DRG trading blows in the month leading up to the patch. I don't remember MKP going 20-0 against DRG, as you'd suggest. And if balance wasn't terrible before the patch, then let's go back to before the patch, because balanced or not seeing Hellion/Banshee into mech has to be the most boring playstyle imaginable.
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On October 31 2012 08:09 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:54 WeRRa wrote:On October 31 2012 07:33 xPabt wrote:On October 31 2012 07:24 monkybone wrote:On October 31 2012 07:20 xPabt wrote:
Happy never saw that it was 3 hatch before pool and so he was shooting at the natural hatchery for so long. by the time he finally went for the main the defense was up for roro. He should have just been happy to kill the other 2 hatcheries. If he had scouted the third he could have likely ended the game by pushing the main and not wasting time at the natural. You're missing the point.... 11/11 have killed zergs on 2 hatch before, of course its possible to kill a zerg on 3 hatch. But that it is even possible to defend against a reasonably executed 11/11 with 3 hatch before pool is a sign of a major flaw in TvZ. Zerg just have too easy of a time defending against anything. This was just a comical illustration of that fact. I'm only saying that the happy vs roro game is a terrible example. Happy made a bunch of errors while roro didn't past the build order selection. I've seen Terran hold a 4 gate proxied warp prism allin with 3 CC before extra barracks. Is protoss aggression vs terran underpowered? If you want to make arguements for terran aggresion being too weak find better examples. It's not about this example, it's simply the way it is, tvz is broken and if anyone disagree, he has to be blind. The greedy play of zergs became standart and zergs become even more greedy and terran can't stop it. Terran runs out of options. Zerg should get weaker queens again and zerg should be scared by hellion runbys and 11/11 rax. Zerg should build roaches again to stop hellions and not mass queens, wich support your production, spread creep and defend with ease against ground and air all ins. Give queens 3 range and TvZ will be fine again, not to mention that it doesn't affects PvZ. But it breaks ZvZ.. Reverting the queen is not the answer. The trend in TvZ before the queen-patch was 3-CCs vs roach-bling all-ins. Terran got to play greedy while zergs had to wait for the 9-minute 3rd while the 4 hellions in front of the Z natural stopped all zerg activity on the map. It was not a balanced match-up then. It may still not be, though it is hard to see the problem if focusing solely on Korean results. In any case, it is no worse for terran now than it used to be for zerg. Remember MMA with a close to 80% TvZ win record while the best ZvT-player, DRG, couldn't break 60% in ZvT?
MMA with close to 80% TvZ record was before the BFH nerf.
DRG was consistently around 67% ZvT prior to the Queen buff. He also did not utilize a ling/infestor style that dominates the scene now, but a ling/bling/muta (which he still uses).
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On October 31 2012 09:07 Shiori wrote:
I'm pretty sure DRG won a GSL right before the Queen patch hit. If that's not indicative of Zerg being fine in Code S, then nothing is. .
GSL 1,2 and 3 were won by FD, Nestea and MC I geuss Terran was underpowered at sc2 release.
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On October 31 2012 09:15 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 09:07 Shiori wrote:
I'm pretty sure DRG won a GSL right before the Queen patch hit. If that's not indicative of Zerg being fine in Code S, then nothing is. . GSL 1,2 and 3 were won by FD, Nestea and MC I geuss Terran was underpowered at sc2 release.
The metagame was completely undeveloped at release. Comparing GSL 1 to the GSL DRG won (and his accompanying period of being very successful even outside GSL) is fucking nonsense.
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On October 31 2012 09:16 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 09:15 xPabt wrote:On October 31 2012 09:07 Shiori wrote:
I'm pretty sure DRG won a GSL right before the Queen patch hit. If that's not indicative of Zerg being fine in Code S, then nothing is. . GSL 1,2 and 3 were won by FD, Nestea and MC I geuss Terran was underpowered at sc2 release. The metagame was completely undeveloped at release. Comparing GSL 1 to the GSL DRG won (and his accompanying period of being very successful even outside GSL) is fucking nonsense. In general, a person from a certain race winning a league is not indicative of balance, just like taeja's performance in tvz doesn't say anything about the matchup. or jyp's performance in pvt, a while ago..
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On October 31 2012 09:21 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 09:16 Shiori wrote:On October 31 2012 09:15 xPabt wrote:On October 31 2012 09:07 Shiori wrote:
I'm pretty sure DRG won a GSL right before the Queen patch hit. If that's not indicative of Zerg being fine in Code S, then nothing is. . GSL 1,2 and 3 were won by FD, Nestea and MC I geuss Terran was underpowered at sc2 release. The metagame was completely undeveloped at release. Comparing GSL 1 to the GSL DRG won (and his accompanying period of being very successful even outside GSL) is fucking nonsense. In general, a person from a certain race winning a league is not indicative of balance, just like taeja's performance in tvz doesn't say anything about the matchup. or jyp's performance in pvt, a while ago..
What I'm saying is that the best Terran in the world and the best Zerg in the world (at the time) were both doing amazingly. It's pretty hard for people to say things like pre-patch TvZ was super Terran favoured if the top players were trading blows completely evenly. These days, we have an undeniable influx of previously unknown Zerg players taking games off of Code S/A Protosses and Terrans. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the metagame became Zerg favoured. In the case of TvZ, it went from amazingly fun to utterly boring in addition to now being likely Zerg favoured. PvZ has been what it is for eons, but as it's become more figured out, things have slid toward Zerg, Immortal all-ins notwithstanding.
But I mean, we're at a point where we have two exceedingly passive and boring and repetitive XvZ matchups. That means something needs to be changed, even if it were balanced.
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On October 31 2012 09:07 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:57 m0ck wrote:On October 31 2012 08:23 monkybone wrote:On October 31 2012 08:19 m0ck wrote:On October 31 2012 08:13 monkybone wrote:On October 31 2012 08:09 m0ck wrote:
Reverting the queen is not the answer. The trend in TvZ before the queen-patch was 3-CCs vs roach-bling all-ins. Terran got to play greedy while zergs had to wait for the 9-minute 3rd while the 4 hellions in front of the Z natural stopped all zerg activity on the map. It was not a balanced match-up then. It may still not be, though it is hard to see the problem if focusing solely on Korean results. In anyt case, itis no worse for terran now than it used to be for zerg.
Remember MMA with a close to 80% TvZ win record while the best ZvT-player, DRG, couldn't break 60% in ZvT? FE'ing in TvZ was not yet standard meta before the queen patch, it was still more common with reactor hellion openings into CC. Yes, this gave map control, which was the saving grace of the matchup. Terran could deny a third, and deny creep. This made the matchup more engaging in the midgame, terran had more options. It was the most balanced matchups of them all. You are quite simply wrong. You're recalling an idea about TvZ, not how it actually played out. Go back and watch some matches from the time, I think you would be surprised. It was the most balanced match-up in the game in which terran always won in the end. I'm not asking to turn back the time. And I think you are looking a bit too far into the past. I'm talking about the period before the patch hit, the state of TvZ was on an all time high, Zergs were doing quite well in the matchup despite the metagame being advantageous to Terrans, and catching up on that. We've yet to see the converse after the patch, even though everyone proclaim that Terrans were going to catch up after a month. But we're still left with a massive underrepresentation of Terrans in most tournaments. Well, it all gets a bit muddled when looking back, that is for sure. My memory of the time preceding the queen-patch was a silly amount of roach-bling all-ins (to counter 3CCs) and of the top code-S terrans (almost) always winning vs zerg. I don't think the balance was terrible before the queen-patch, but then, I don't think the balance is terrible now (the aesthetics of play aside). To my mind, terran has had a fair adjustment upwards in how much APM it takes to achieve the same level of results (there were never any zerg goody or sjow). All-ins are worse (though 2-rax, mass hellions and marauder-hellions still win games) and because of the relatively worse economy for terran vs zerg, turtling to an upgrade-dependent timing through a defensively achieved superior economy is much less effective for terran (and more so for zerg). I think those changes are all fine. The 'ultimate' army of Z is probably too strong (and also immobile), but you have to be very careful when balancing the composition. A less strong end-point for zerg would encourage more engagements earlier in the game, but could also result in terrans turtling instead - and zergs generally can't break that without BLs. I'm pretty sure DRG won a GSL right before the Queen patch hit. If that's not indicative of Zerg being fine in Code S, then nothing is. I remember MKP and DRG trading blows in the month leading up to the patch. I don't remember MKP going 20-0 against DRG, as you'd suggest. And if balance wasn't terrible before the patch, then let's go back to before the patch, because balanced or not seeing Hellion/Banshee into mech has to be the most boring playstyle imaginable.
He did indeed, but what happened the following season? In any case, judging by code S terrans are doing just fine, wouldn't you agree?
I think peoples memory of what the TvZ match-up used to be don't have a whole lot to do with how the match-up actually was. There were good games and bad games, like now. Go back and watch random TvZ games pre-patch and see if it really was all that.
In any case, you can't turn back the clock on the development of terran gameplay. The level of play is stronger. 3CC banshee + hellion opening would be extremely strong against a pre-patch queen. Safe against roach-bling, denies third forever. Mech won't go away either. As goody showed a long time ago, it allows you to be competitive with a relatively low APM requirement.
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On October 31 2012 09:16 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 09:15 xPabt wrote:On October 31 2012 09:07 Shiori wrote:
I'm pretty sure DRG won a GSL right before the Queen patch hit. If that's not indicative of Zerg being fine in Code S, then nothing is. . GSL 1,2 and 3 were won by FD, Nestea and MC I geuss Terran was underpowered at sc2 release. The metagame was completely undeveloped at release. Comparing GSL 1 to the GSL DRG won (and his accompanying period of being very successful even outside GSL) is fucking nonsense.
Exactly, i dunno why people try to use 2-3 year old data to try and prove their points...
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EPT
