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On October 21 2012 16:00 Azzur wrote:
Problem:
Infestors are completely overpowered. They are a counter everything unit and can perform well in any situation and have no weaknesses. Units that "counter" them (e.g. ghosts) are not really hard counters anyways (e.g. they can get fungaled) and are ghosts are not useful in any other situation - making them a 200/100 unit with such a narrow purpose.
In addition, infestors make BL/corrupter insansely overpowered - the one terran solution to them (i.e. vikings) is completely shut down by a fungal. In the end, the endgame of TvZ becomes dodging that one money fungal whilst zerg have many get out of jail cards - for instance, if their army is out of position, infestors can stall by fungals, etc. Actually, there is no terran counter to infestor/BL/corrupter - the terran can only hope for the zerg to mess up.
Another side effect is that infestors become completely overpowered in ZvZ - see Roro vs DRG in GSL Season 4, Code A ro24 where the game became dominated by infestors.
Solution:
Fungals should not hit air units. This will allow air units (e.g. banshees) to counter them. This will also make mutas usable in ZvZ. With the queen buff, zergs already have many options in fighting mutas anyways. Also, in the PvZ matchup, the game won't revolve around the "get that money vortex off" since protoss can make air units to counter the infestors.
Interestingly, blizzard foresaw this problem, and initially wanted to remove the infestor ability to affect air units in a previous patch (1.4 I think?). But zerg qq forced them to revert the change. I don't think any zerg can seriously qq anymore.
Side effects:
None - or maybe there will be more zerg qq'ing. I guess maybe mutas could possibly become too powerful in ZvZ but it's a mirror matchup so it's fine.
The 'solution' is using your mobile army to deal alot of damage to the zerg economy while getting a army that can fight the broodlord infestor, that's not mass vikings...
Vikings/Ravens, ghosts could be used, altho when there are 20+ infestors it's insanely difficult to actually make ghosts make any difference.
Your suggestion, and what you think will be the side effects are just dumb.
If ZVT was the only matchup, people would most likely agree somewhat with what you are saying, but it's not.
Nerfing fungal is going to break ZVP so much it isn't even funny - from midgame all the way to the end.
Zerg doesn't have good anti air except for infestors, corruptors are only good when they get help from infestors, and they are very expensive for what they will achieve.
And ZvZ, you dont even care.. you just say "Let's ruin this matchup 100%, and lets hope zvp doesn't get ruined too, and we fix this issue!"
It wasn't "Zerg qq" that got blizzard to not go through with that change, it broke the game for zerg... it was just a dumb patch idea
Btw, i hate infestors too, i absolutely hate going broodlord infestor - but i dont really have a choice vs a player that is close to my level.
i would love a nerf to infestors, but people need to realise that it would require a ton of patching for the whole zerg race to balance it, because infestors is the one thing holding zerg together properly in ZvT, especially ZvP and makes zvz somewhat less of a clusterfuck
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On October 21 2012 16:00 Azzur wrote:
Problem:
Infestors are completely overpowered. They are a counter everything unit and can perform well in any situation and have no weaknesses. Units that "counter" them (e.g. ghosts) are not really hard counters anyways (e.g. they can get fungaled) and are ghosts are not useful in any other situation - making them a 200/100 unit with such a narrow purpose.
In addition, infestors make BL/corrupter insansely overpowered - the one terran solution to them (i.e. vikings) is completely shut down by a fungal. In the end, the endgame of TvZ becomes dodging that one money fungal whilst zerg have many get out of jail cards - for instance, if their army is out of position, infestors can stall by fungals, etc. Actually, there is no terran counter to infestor/BL/corrupter - the terran can only hope for the zerg to mess up.
Another side effect is that infestors become completely overpowered in ZvZ - see Roro vs DRG in GSL Season 4, Code A ro24 where the game became dominated by infestors.
Solution:
Fungals should not hit air units. This will allow air units (e.g. banshees) to counter them. This will also make mutas usable in ZvZ. With the queen buff, zergs already have many options in fighting mutas anyways. Also, in the PvZ matchup, the game won't revolve around the "get that money vortex off" since protoss can make air units to counter the infestors.
Interestingly, blizzard foresaw this problem, and initially wanted to remove the infestor ability to affect air units in a previous patch (1.4 I think?). But zerg qq forced them to revert the change. I don't think any zerg can seriously qq anymore.
Side effects:
None - or maybe there will be more zerg qq'ing. I guess maybe mutas could possibly become too powerful in ZvZ but it's a mirror matchup so it's fine.
Just make fungal growth a slow instead of a snare.
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People just reached a consensus that Zerg is OP in recent weeks. Before October there are no consensus but of course there were many people talking about Zerg OP. However, nowadays, calling Zerg OP is a pretty legitimate thing to do and you won't be downvoted in reddit. It was not like this before.
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On October 25 2012 06:22 larse wrote:
People just reached a consensus that Zerg is OP in recent weeks. Before October there are no consensus but of course there were many people talking about Zerg OP. However, nowadays, calling Zerg OP is a pretty legitimate thing to do and you won't be downvoted in reddit. It was not like this before.
Well, that's because zergs can't even qq with a straight face anymore - a good indication is whenever a terran wins against a zerg, the zergs will say "So, they say zerg OP?". If it was any other way (i.e. zerg is not OP), there will be tears instead. Anyways, the consensus of zerg OP was realised a long while away - it's just they managed to choke, which is why the qq against them was not as strong.
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On October 18 2012 17:58 lost_artz wrote:
Complaint
Problem: Mass Orbitals (5+)/Mules
Solution: Limit Orbitals to 5/require 1 supply per Mule
Side Effects: As I see it the only side effect would be players having to manage their Macro more effectively. There's also a small potential of lessening the amount of damage some [terran] all-ins can do.
I've wanted to post this for a quiet a while now and be very clear that Mass Mules and Orbitals is something that annoys me not only from a spectator POV but also from when I play.
The way I see it Mass Orbitals (over 5) and Mass Mules in the lategame are simply to strong. Orbitals serve 2 purposes besides being a CC, Scans and Mules. Neither are available via PFs and both are the best at what they are used for; Detection, Map Awareness, and Mining. An unfortunate side effect of Mass Orbitals is the ability for Terrans to throw away SCVs to free up supply thus making their armies much larger than what other races can achieve. Zerg are capable of doing something similar in the fashion of mass building then canceling but they still can't match the results of Terrans. On the other hand Protoss are completely screwed in this regard as there's no way for them to add extra units without sacrificing economy altogether.
I do not mind the concept of Mules at all, however I find it extremely annoying when players are capable of calling them down constantly due to stupidly high amounts of Orbitals. No other race is capable of mining at such high efficiency with low amounts of workers. Sure there's larva injects and Chronoboosts to balance out the early game but in the lategame they fall way short of Mules which are also free and have no supply cost.
I just find it completely wrong that Mass Orbitals can have such a drastic impact on the lategame especially if a Terran player has lost all his workers from harassment. It's almost like a Get of a Jail free card that can be used infinitely and that bothers me and I don't find it balanced at all in the lategame.
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To sum things up I would love to see a limit of Orbitals to 5 and or a 1 supply cost for Mules which would make Terran players have to think more carefully about how they use Mules rather than being able to call down 15 at once. 15 Mules only = 3 Orbitals with full energy. How often do you see games with 5+? Pretty often, especially if the Terran is ahead in all aspects.
You can rework MULEs in a different way to make them a bit smoother:
-CC becomes equivalent to OC, start with 0 energy.
-MULE mines only 20 mins per run
So now you have more harvesters as Terran, MULE is less effective at replacing workers lategame, and it still does the job of fixing hidden costs of Terran infrastructure.
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On October 21 2012 16:00 Azzur wrote:
Problem:
Infestors are completely overpowered. They are a counter everything unit and can perform well in any situation and have no weaknesses. Units that "counter" them (e.g. ghosts) are not really hard counters anyways (e.g. they can get fungaled) and are ghosts are not useful in any other situation - making them a 200/100 unit with such a narrow purpose.
In addition, infestors make BL/corrupter insansely overpowered - the one terran solution to them (i.e. vikings) is completely shut down by a fungal. In the end, the endgame of TvZ becomes dodging that one money fungal whilst zerg have many get out of jail cards - for instance, if their army is out of position, infestors can stall by fungals, etc. Actually, there is no terran counter to infestor/BL/corrupter - the terran can only hope for the zerg to mess up.
Another side effect is that infestors become completely overpowered in ZvZ - see Roro vs DRG in GSL Season 4, Code A ro24 where the game became dominated by infestors.
Solution:
Fungals should not hit air units. This will allow air units (e.g. banshees) to counter them. This will also make mutas usable in ZvZ. With the queen buff, zergs already have many options in fighting mutas anyways. Also, in the PvZ matchup, the game won't revolve around the "get that money vortex off" since protoss can make air units to counter the infestors.
Interestingly, blizzard foresaw this problem, and initially wanted to remove the infestor ability to affect air units in a previous patch (1.4 I think?). But zerg qq forced them to revert the change. I don't think any zerg can seriously qq anymore.
Side effects:
None - or maybe there will be more zerg qq'ing. I guess maybe mutas could possibly become too powerful in ZvZ but it's a mirror matchup so it's fine.
Simple cost nerf
100 mins 225 gas 3 supply for one Infestor will do fine.
Same can be done for High Templar to lower the amount of splash for Protoss... (maybe disallow DTs from melding? to lower archon count properly)
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if you let the zerg get to the point of mass infestor brood / corruptor the problem is not the balance - it's your bad play.
The infestor is fine, so is fungal. Terran has to damage zerg's economy and not just sit back letting him mass up infestor energy on 6 bases. All it takes in a more even game when Terran isn't an idiot to build some marauders and extra medivacs to deal with infestors.
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You shouldn't be able to lift orbital command centers...
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On October 30 2012 20:47 malaan wrote:
if you let the zerg get to the point of mass infestor brood / corruptor the problem is not the balance - it's your bad play.
The infestor is fine, so is fungal. Terran has to damage zerg's economy and not just sit back letting him mass up infestor energy on 6 bases. All it takes in a more even game when Terran isn't an idiot to build some marauders and extra medivacs to deal with infestors.
There is a guy called Halbystarcraft on Youtube that has pretty much nailed the problem: army value
Infestor Broodlord is super high cost, super low supply so when Zerg gets a 15k army vs your 9 you wonder why Zerg is OP. You will see Halby and his friend talk about these things on the videos but they only post games they win, their winrates aren't that high actually so I would stand by my cost nerf idea.
Though I like your attitude.
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On October 30 2012 20:47 malaan wrote:
if you let the zerg get to the point of mass infestor brood / corruptor the problem is not the balance - it's your bad play.
The infestor is fine, so is fungal. Terran has to damage zerg's economy and not just sit back letting him mass up infestor energy on 6 bases. All it takes in a more even game when Terran isn't an idiot to build some marauders and extra medivacs to deal with infestors.
every zerg and their grandmother can tech to infestor broodlord, there really isn't much a Terran can do as long as the Zerg knows how to use queens or roaches vs hellion/banshee harrass.
You are basically saying infestor broodlord should be auto-win, what a ridiculous post.
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On October 21 2012 16:00 Azzur wrote:
Problem:
Infestors are completely overpowered. They are a counter everything unit and can perform well in any situation and have no weaknesses. Units that "counter" them (e.g. ghosts) are not really hard counters anyways (e.g. they can get fungaled) and are ghosts are not useful in any other situation - making them a 200/100 unit with such a narrow purpose.
In addition, infestors make BL/corrupter insansely overpowered - the one terran solution to them (i.e. vikings) is completely shut down by a fungal. In the end, the endgame of TvZ becomes dodging that one money fungal whilst zerg have many get out of jail cards - for instance, if their army is out of position, infestors can stall by fungals, etc. Actually, there is no terran counter to infestor/BL/corrupter - the terran can only hope for the zerg to mess up.
Another side effect is that infestors become completely overpowered in ZvZ - see Roro vs DRG in GSL Season 4, Code A ro24 where the game became dominated by infestors.
Solution:
Fungals should not hit air units. This will allow air units (e.g. banshees) to counter them. This will also make mutas usable in ZvZ. With the queen buff, zergs already have many options in fighting mutas anyways. Also, in the PvZ matchup, the game won't revolve around the "get that money vortex off" since protoss can make air units to counter the infestors.
Interestingly, blizzard foresaw this problem, and initially wanted to remove the infestor ability to affect air units in a previous patch (1.4 I think?). But zerg qq forced them to revert the change. I don't think any zerg can seriously qq anymore.
Side effects:
None - or maybe there will be more zerg qq'ing. I guess maybe mutas could possibly become too powerful in ZvZ but it's a mirror matchup so it's fine.
Tell that to IMMVP when he was transitioning to raven with seeker missile at the perfect timing to smash the real backbone of the BL/Infestor comp, the Corruptors.
Terran has the answer, it just that Terran has to hit 8-10 gas at the right timing for that answer to be viable. Not to mention the Terran has to know exactly when to start transitioning from mmmtank to Raven/Viking/smattering of other things. I don't really think that Terran has exhausted what it CAN do yet...
Unlike Protoss... which is just sad. Carriers/Void Rays should never really work because infestors just smash them in too many ways...
On October 30 2012 21:29 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 20:47 malaan wrote:
if you let the zerg get to the point of mass infestor brood / corruptor the problem is not the balance - it's your bad play.
The infestor is fine, so is fungal. Terran has to damage zerg's economy and not just sit back letting him mass up infestor energy on 6 bases. All it takes in a more even game when Terran isn't an idiot to build some marauders and extra medivacs to deal with infestors.
every zerg and their grandmother can tech to infestor broodlord, there really isn't much a Terran can do as long as the Zerg knows how to use queens or roaches vs hellion/banshee harrass. You are basically saying infestor broodlord should be auto-win, what a ridiculous post.
While I don't agree that Terran should always lose to BL/Infestor... The argument of "If they get to that comp you deserve to lose" can be valid in some cases... Just not in SC2. SC2's resource management/current mappool makes almost any comp viable... I swear, I've seen mass Carriers on Daybreak for God's sake...
In SC:BW if a Zerg maxed on hydra/ling/lurk vs Protoss, the Protoss should basically lose 100% of the time because hydra.ling/lurk max army was just that much more powerful than anything Protoss could really muster. If a Terran maxed on Tank/Goli vs Protoss it was just GG... That army could just splash apart armies triple their worth and then go on to siege every base you had simultaneously... But such a super comp doesn't really exist in SC2, except maybe BL/Infestor/Crawler in ZvP, but the problem with it in ZvP is that it's almost astoundingly easy to get to while the other comps in BW I mentioned were nigh on impossible to get vs a player on your own level.
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On October 30 2012 23:04 ShatterZer0 wrote:
In SC:BW if a Zerg maxed on hydra/ling/lurk vs Protoss, the Protoss should basically lose 100% of the time because hydra.ling/lurk max army was just that much more powerful than anything Protoss could really muster. If a Terran maxed on Tank/Goli vs Protoss it was just GG... That army could just splash apart armies triple their worth and then go on to siege every base you had simultaneously... But such a super comp doesn't really exist in SC2, except maybe BL/Infestor/Crawler in ZvP, but the problem with it in ZvP is that it's almost astoundingly easy to get to while the other comps in BW I mentioned were nigh on impossible to get vs a player on your own level.
Lolwut?
If Protoss and zerg are both maxed in BW the Protoss army is definitely stronger. Reavers, Psi storm, archons, etc. Base trade rarely favors Zerg in ZvP because Protoss army will be untouchable. Zerg wins by out expanding and reinforcing faster while maintaining map control to deny Protoss expansions. And 200/200 Mech is not invincible in TvP. It's scary, but so is the Protoss with +3 bases on you and 4 arbiters recalling in two different locations while stalling your push.
No composition should be unbeatable. If you let your opponent get a huge economic lead on you without punishing them then yes you deserve to lose. But just teching to a certain composition should never "win you the game".
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On October 31 2012 01:00 Gerbilkit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 23:04 ShatterZer0 wrote:
In SC:BW if a Zerg maxed on hydra/ling/lurk vs Protoss, the Protoss should basically lose 100% of the time because hydra.ling/lurk max army was just that much more powerful than anything Protoss could really muster. If a Terran maxed on Tank/Goli vs Protoss it was just GG... That army could just splash apart armies triple their worth and then go on to siege every base you had simultaneously... But such a super comp doesn't really exist in SC2, except maybe BL/Infestor/Crawler in ZvP, but the problem with it in ZvP is that it's almost astoundingly easy to get to while the other comps in BW I mentioned were nigh on impossible to get vs a player on your own level. Lolwut? If Protoss and zerg are both maxed in BW the Protoss army is definitely stronger. Reavers, Psi storm, archons, etc. Base trade rarely favors Zerg in ZvP because Protoss army will be untouchable. Zerg wins by out expanding and reinforcing faster while maintaining map control to deny Protoss expansions. And 200/200 Mech is not invincible in TvP. It's scary, but so is the Protoss with +3 bases on you and 4 arbiters recalling in two different locations while stalling your push. No composition should be unbeatable. If you let your opponent get a huge economic lead on you without punishing them then yes you deserve to lose. But just teching to a certain composition should never "win you the game".
You obviously didn't watch much modern BW... Mid game PvZ was Protoss on 2 base attempting to stabilize to a third-fourth with an army that was generally 20-30 supply over the Zerg... and fighting evenly. I guess I didn't mention Defilers being in the ZvP comp... but how else were late game Lurkers used except with Defiler support? Defilers... I don't understand how any army survived a max army with Defiler compliment...
200/200 Mech in TvP was utterly invincible when positioned correctly. Bases were covered in turrets and spidermines that splattered recalls. Stalling a 200/200 push was laughable, the Protoss would crash army after army into a Terran max and only really won after 3-4 full zealot exchanges... Arbiters were more scary for Terran because of Stasis, but even then scivess and good positioning made arbiters icing rather than the cake.
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On October 31 2012 02:26 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 01:00 Gerbilkit wrote:On October 30 2012 23:04 ShatterZer0 wrote:
In SC:BW if a Zerg maxed on hydra/ling/lurk vs Protoss, the Protoss should basically lose 100% of the time because hydra.ling/lurk max army was just that much more powerful than anything Protoss could really muster. If a Terran maxed on Tank/Goli vs Protoss it was just GG... That army could just splash apart armies triple their worth and then go on to siege every base you had simultaneously... But such a super comp doesn't really exist in SC2, except maybe BL/Infestor/Crawler in ZvP, but the problem with it in ZvP is that it's almost astoundingly easy to get to while the other comps in BW I mentioned were nigh on impossible to get vs a player on your own level. Lolwut? If Protoss and zerg are both maxed in BW the Protoss army is definitely stronger. Reavers, Psi storm, archons, etc. Base trade rarely favors Zerg in ZvP because Protoss army will be untouchable. Zerg wins by out expanding and reinforcing faster while maintaining map control to deny Protoss expansions. And 200/200 Mech is not invincible in TvP. It's scary, but so is the Protoss with +3 bases on you and 4 arbiters recalling in two different locations while stalling your push. No composition should be unbeatable. If you let your opponent get a huge economic lead on you without punishing them then yes you deserve to lose. But just teching to a certain composition should never "win you the game". You obviously didn't watch much modern BW... Mid game PvZ was Protoss on 2 base attempting to stabilize to a third-fourth with an army that was generally 20-30 supply over the Zerg... and fighting evenly. I guess I didn't mention Defilers being in the ZvP comp... but how else were late game Lurkers used except with Defiler support? Defilers... I don't understand how any army survived a max army with Defiler compliment... 200/200 Mech in TvP was utterly invincible when positioned correctly. Bases were covered in turrets and spidermines that splattered recalls. Stalling a 200/200 push was laughable, the Protoss would crash army after army into a Terran max and only really won after 3-4 full zealot exchanges... Arbiters were more scary for Terran because of Stasis, but even then scivess and good positioning made arbiters icing rather than the cake.
I don't really want to get into a long debate because in no way am I an expert on BW, and this is a SC2 balance thread. But my main point is still that there should never be anything that is an unbeatable army composition. Players who are able to seize and hold large economic leads should be rewarded accordingly, but just because you managed to tech to a certain composition should not guarantee a victory.
But I have watched a lot of professional BW. Again I don't claim to be an expert. But asserting that 200/200 mech in TvP was "invincible" is simply false. If you watch lots of Flash games then I can certainly see how you might come to that conclusion, but it's false. Unless by perfect positioning you mean the Terran is playing perfectly and the protoss is not. Protoss has plenty of ways to still win the game, and if the Terran just turtles on 3 bases and techs to 200/200 while Protoss expands to 5-6 bases with twice the macro capabilities the Terran is going to get stomped when his main runs dry when he moves out. The match up is far too complex to reduce to "200/200. lol T > P"
And I don't understand what you're saying about PvZ. You originally were talking about "if a Zerg maxed on hydra/ling/lurk". So I don't know why you respond by talking about mid-game PvZ. Yes the mid game has always revolved around the Protoss 3rd. This says nothing about comparing a maxed Protoss and maxed Zerg army. Protoss can't max out on 2 gas, that's why the Protoss 3rd base is so important, because then they are able to afford the late game composition that makes them so scary. Zerg always needs more bases than Protoss, always. Otherwise they are going to get rolled.
And to bring this back again to SC2. What I would like to see is more emphasis on units that require significant micro to use properly, and less on attaining the perfect army composition. The more the game is based on skill and less on things like army composition and rock paper scissors match ups between units the better it will be to watch and play. For instance in BW the defiler's dark swarm doesn't directly deal damage, it just protects your own units. Maybe instead of making fungal do damage it can be a spell the freezes the enemy units and reduces their armor to 0 but actual damage will still need to be dealt by other units.
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Fungal not hitting air would pretty much fix the zerg lategame deathball problem. Making fungal not counter Void Rays, Carriers (interceptors) and Vikings, would make all them viable weapons against broodlord/corruptor/infestor. Would give banshee a new use too and open new strats in ZvZ with air play.
With the upcoming changes to the zerg arsenal in HoTS (easier and better AA in "free" spore and hydra speed, 2 new mid-game units), I feel this change should be pretty much a given and just logic.
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On October 31 2012 05:04 Salteador Neo wrote:
Fungal not hitting air would pretty much fix the zerg lategame deathball problem. Making fungal not counter Void Rays, Carriers (interceptors) and Vikings, would make all them viable weapons against broodlord/corruptor/infestor. Would give banshee a new use too and open new strats in ZvZ with air play.
With the upcoming changes to the zerg arsenal in HoTS (easier and better AA in "free" spore and hydra speed, 2 new mid-game units), I feel this change should be pretty much a given and just logic.
I'd definitely agree, especially given that Muta and Hydra could definitely function well as anti-air in HOTS.
I don't see why Fungal hits air, honestly. If it didn't, we'd see more unit comp variety with Zerg, Zerg would be forced to use more micro and think about their positioning/splitting more as well. It's a win/win, and maybe infestor/broodlord wouldn't completely dominate all 3 matchups in the late game.
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On October 31 2012 02:26 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 01:00 Gerbilkit wrote:On October 30 2012 23:04 ShatterZer0 wrote:
In SC:BW if a Zerg maxed on hydra/ling/lurk vs Protoss, the Protoss should basically lose 100% of the time because hydra.ling/lurk max army was just that much more powerful than anything Protoss could really muster. If a Terran maxed on Tank/Goli vs Protoss it was just GG... That army could just splash apart armies triple their worth and then go on to siege every base you had simultaneously... But such a super comp doesn't really exist in SC2, except maybe BL/Infestor/Crawler in ZvP, but the problem with it in ZvP is that it's almost astoundingly easy to get to while the other comps in BW I mentioned were nigh on impossible to get vs a player on your own level. Lolwut? If Protoss and zerg are both maxed in BW the Protoss army is definitely stronger. Reavers, Psi storm, archons, etc. Base trade rarely favors Zerg in ZvP because Protoss army will be untouchable. Zerg wins by out expanding and reinforcing faster while maintaining map control to deny Protoss expansions. And 200/200 Mech is not invincible in TvP. It's scary, but so is the Protoss with +3 bases on you and 4 arbiters recalling in two different locations while stalling your push. No composition should be unbeatable. If you let your opponent get a huge economic lead on you without punishing them then yes you deserve to lose. But just teching to a certain composition should never "win you the game". You obviously didn't watch much modern BW... Mid game PvZ was Protoss on 2 base attempting to stabilize to a third-fourth with an army that was generally 20-30 supply over the Zerg... and fighting evenly. I guess I didn't mention Defilers being in the ZvP comp... but how else were late game Lurkers used except with Defiler support? Defilers... I don't understand how any army survived a max army with Defiler compliment... 200/200 Mech in TvP was utterly invincible when positioned correctly. Bases were covered in turrets and spidermines that splattered recalls. Stalling a 200/200 push was laughable, the Protoss would crash army after army into a Terran max and only really won after 3-4 full zealot exchanges... Arbiters were more scary for Terran because of Stasis, but even then scivess and good positioning made arbiters icing rather than the cake.
No no, you clearly didn't watch BW. It is well known that Protoss was utterly unbeatable lategame PvZ. Zergs could have 10k/10k in the bank and still get shit upon by Protoss. You absolutely could NOT stop a Protoss that had an army composition that consisted of mass Archon/Reaver/Arbiter/Dark Archon/High Templar with a few other units like Dragoons sprinkled in. And yes, Protoss did achieve this comp every now and then in broadcasted games. It wasn't exactly common, but Protoss won, pretty much EVERYTIME they achieved this composition, even if the Zerg could remax on whatever they wanted god knows how many times.
This is always the composition Protoss would tech towards when the game was split map and mined out positions. Protoss fortified their base with mass cannons/reavers with their main unit composition itself being zealot/goon/archon/high temp. Zerg could not break mass cannon reaver with anything, although the typical attempt became slow down out battles with Guardians or just mass pummeling with ling/ultra/defiler. As bases mined out and the game became slower, the armies stopped constantly clashing (zerg could not be cost efficient). Protoss would tech to Dark Archons and if the time came, eventually Arbiters. Dark Archons were primarily used for feedback vs Defiler and maelstrom (especially if you realized they were teching to Guardians).
You absolutely could NOT stop Protoss camping split map in PvZ if you allowed the Protoss to solidify their position.
Your lurker/defiler combo super lategame is a joke. Reavers would always just shit on them, as would storms.
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Every race has an AOE attack that hits air. Why shouldn't zerg? If fungal no longer hits air then you need to buff hydras. If you buff hydras then you have to rework the roach and all early and mid game balance across all 3 match-ups is thrown up into the air.
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On October 31 2012 05:20 jdsowa wrote:
Every race has an AOE attack that hits air. Why shouldn't zerg? If fungal no longer hits air then you need to buff hydras. If you buff hydras then you have to rework the roach and all early and mid game balance across all 3 match-ups is thrown up into the air.
Well we're in Beta now, aren't we?
It's pretty clear there is a problem, it needs to be fixed and not glossed over so that Blizzard can be lazy about how they design the races to work
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EPT
