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On September 21 2012 09:58 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 08:59 Shikyo wrote:On September 21 2012 07:47 Protosnake wrote:
So basically Protoss isn't allowed to get hit once by a single Fungal throughout the entire game? Sounds fair.
Is zerg allowed to get hit once by Vortex ? He is as long as he doesnt allow his opponent to be too much cost effective with it Fungals are not infinite and take time to deal their damage, just do like the dude in front of you, split, that's as fair as it get Sorry for butting in but I don't think that a 75 energy spell of a massable 2nd-tier unit should be comparable to a 100 energy spell of a unique 4th tier unit, even more so as Vortex deals 0 damage and makes its targets invulnerable. It's the balance discussion, not the game of pretend discussion, anything that enter an archon toilet will get obliterated, vortex is basicly a super-fungal
No it isn't. A vortex doesn't necessary equate to you losing your army. It doesn't even do any damage. Protoss has to invest units into it, preferable archons otherwise once it's done unlike fungal growth units can still fight back or retreat. Vortex doesn't make units trap with in helpless, it only clumps them up.
Fungal growth unlike vortex can be cast as many times as you have infestors with energy. Until whatever group of units trapped within the loop get destroyed. It's especailly op against air units like phoenix or vikings that have to clump to be microed efficiently. And for that reason hard counters most air tech.
Super fungal? Not to so.
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On September 21 2012 10:38 KingAce wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 09:58 Protosnake wrote:On September 21 2012 08:59 Shikyo wrote:On September 21 2012 07:47 Protosnake wrote:
So basically Protoss isn't allowed to get hit once by a single Fungal throughout the entire game? Sounds fair.
Is zerg allowed to get hit once by Vortex ? He is as long as he doesnt allow his opponent to be too much cost effective with it Fungals are not infinite and take time to deal their damage, just do like the dude in front of you, split, that's as fair as it get Sorry for butting in but I don't think that a 75 energy spell of a massable 2nd-tier unit should be comparable to a 100 energy spell of a unique 4th tier unit, even more so as Vortex deals 0 damage and makes its targets invulnerable. It's the balance discussion, not the game of pretend discussion, anything that enter an archon toilet will get obliterated, vortex is basicly a super-fungal No it isn't. A vortex doesn't necessary equate to you losing your army. It doesn't even do any damage. Protoss has to invest units into it, preferable archons otherwise once it's done unlike fungal growth units can still fight back or retreat. Vortex doesn't make units trap with in helpless, it only clumps them up. Fungal growth unlike vortex can be cast as many times as you have infestors with energy. Until whatever group of units trapped within the loop get destroyed. It's especailly op against air units like phoenix or vikings that have to clump to be microed efficiently. And for that reason hard counters most air tech. Super fungal? Not to so.
To build on this, another reason that fungal is so powerful is how massable infestors are. There is almost never a situation, where building additional infestors is a bad thing, because of how strong infested terrans are in conjunction with fungals forcing the opponent to fight the really high dps units. For example, see Seed v Symbol game 5 today (GSL code S) and Happy v KDY game 3 (MCSL). In both of the games, after the original zerg army was cleaned up, they were able to remax on almost purely infestors to make an incredibly dangerous and scary army. With a 40+ infestor army, you have a huge supply of energy which allows either chain fungals, or fungal + IT. That on top with infestor's high survivability (with both burrow and fungal as escape mechanisms) means killing off any of the infestors without significant loss is very challenging.
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I don't understand this Protoss whining, it also seems to happen when any kind of Protoss fan favorite loses, when Stephano dismantled HerO and MC it got out of control, despite Stephano clearly playing better, apparently we have a resurgence of this because SeeD went... 3-3 vs Symbol. It's ok guys Protoss heroes are going to get eliminated some times, Protoss is really strong in korea past 3 months or so, there is no need for QQ, august stats were no fluke, I suggest you look at top finishers for GSL's and WCS Korea, there was no lack of Brotoss.
Any type of nerf to infestor or broodlord must be compensated at this point, just yelling "INFESTORSOOPNERF" is unreasonable, its the only tool zergs have to fight a bunch of protoss strategies and army comps.
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On September 21 2012 18:53 sibs wrote:
I don't understand this Protoss whining, it also seems to happen when any kind of Protoss fan favorite loses, when Stephano dismantled HerO and MC it got out of control, despite Stephano clearly playing better, apparently we have a resurgence of this because SeeD went... 3-3 vs Symbol. It's ok guys Protoss heroes are going to get eliminated some times, Protoss is really strong in korea past 3 months or so, there is no need for QQ, august stats were no fluke, I suggest you look at top finishers for GSL's and WCS Korea, there was no lack of Brotoss.
Any type of nerf to infestor or broodlord must be compensated at this point, just yelling "INFESTORSOOPNERF" is unreasonable, its the only tool zergs have to fight a bunch of protoss strategies and army comps.
I mentioned a TvZ as well as a PvZ. I can also mention a ZvZ with the same problem: any Freaky game. My complaint was more along the lines of I don't like how massable the unit is. The game is much more enjoyable to watch when you see how to fight with a HT/stalker/archon/collosi/mothership/with a few carrier army, or a thor/a few tanks/raven/viking/a few BCs unit composition. That is exciting to see the engagement, not a pure infestor army. Lategame armies should be about getting the right composition to deal with what you've scouted your opponents composition to be, it shouldn't be about "I'll just build this one unit and I'll be good regardless of what the other person has."
I understand that the Korea is pretty balanced right now, but outside of korea is definitely in favor of zerg (see the WCS results for the rest of the word, there is no lack of zerg and a huge lack of terran). Maybe a slight nerf to infestor/BL can be compensation for the queen patch, which terran were never compensated for?
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On September 21 2012 18:53 sibs wrote:
I don't understand this Protoss whining, it also seems to happen when any kind of Protoss fan favorite loses, when Stephano dismantled HerO and MC it got out of control, despite Stephano clearly playing better, apparently we have a resurgence of this because SeeD went... 3-3 vs Symbol. It's ok guys Protoss heroes are going to get eliminated some times, Protoss is really strong in korea past 3 months or so, there is no need for QQ, august stats were no fluke, I suggest you look at top finishers for GSL's and WCS Korea, there was no lack of Brotoss.
Any type of nerf to infestor or broodlord must be compensated at this point, just yelling "INFESTORSOOPNERF" is unreasonable, its the only tool zergs have to fight a bunch of protoss strategies and army comps.
The whining does get out of hand some times. But the overall idea of PvZ is flawed. Late game toss has to rely on a single unit landing a spell. Win if the spell lands properly, lose if it doesn't. It's not so much imbalanced as in a faulty mechanic.
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People should not even think about whinning on balance until they reach the very top level, if you lose that's because it's your fault, you can still increase your skills alot and people instead of doing an introspection of theirself they prefer to whine about balance while there's so much to accomplish between your two ears :D
And btw as a bw player, I agree with some of you guyz , there shouldnt be a situation where in you make 1 small mistake, you lose the game, and I think blizzard should just take a look on maps, in WOL maps are too much similar.
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On September 22 2012 01:23 Bellazuk wrote:
People should not even think about whinning on balance until they reach the very top level, if you lose that's because it's your fault, you can still increase your skills alot and people instead of doing an introspection of theirself they prefer to whine about balance while there's so much to accomplish between your two ears :D
And btw as a bw player, I agree with some of you guyz , there shouldnt be a situation for every races that you make 1 small mistake, you lose the game, and I think blizzard should just take a look on maps, in WOL maps are too much similar.
User was warned for this post
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On September 22 2012 01:23 Bellazuk wrote:
People should not even think about whinning on balance until they reach the very top level, if you lose that's because it's your fault, you can still increase your skills alot and people instead of doing an introspection of theirself they prefer to whine about balance while there's so much to accomplish between your two ears :D
And btw as a bw player, I agree with some of you guyz , there shouldnt be a situation where in you make 1 small mistake, you lose the game, and I think blizzard should just take a look on maps, in WOL maps are too much similar.
This is a logical fallacy called Tu Quoque. You have all the rights in the world to state your opinions on balance regardless of your skill level. Progamers and high leaguers like to invalidate opinions other people have simply because of their skill level, but the truth is, anyone can have a good and accurate opinion on balance. If I see a pro a-move infesters into a wall of zealots, despite my placement in Platinum, I can say, "Hey, that was a stupid move." And the same goes with balance. I'll admit, there is a level of understanding that is very difficult to grasp unless you've actually experienced managing four drops, or microing mutalisks, or feedbacking banshees, or whatever. However, to say that just because someone is not good at the game equates to them not having valid opinions on the game is not true at all and it needs to fucking stop. I'm really tired of it.
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I think Fungal is not imbalanced, as is clearly shown by Zerg not dominating Protoss to a ridiculous (10%+) extent on a competitive level. Fungal is just poorly designed. Unfortunately, it's a large part of the Zerg race, and can't easily be fixed. I suppose the big question with it is: what is it that Zerg players REQUIRE from Fungal, and what parts can be removed/deferred until a later caster unit? For example, would it be possible to give the Infestor Ensnare, and then reintroduce the Defiler with Plague to give Zerg a stronger lategame presence to make up for the lower midgame? NOTE: this is not the solution I am proposing. It's just the style of solution I'm proposing.
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that a single massable caster that's good against anything is good for the game or good for Zerg as a race. Hell, the Science Vessel only squeezed through because it was so tough to build and so gas-intensive. What it means for Zerg is that they really only have one option. They don't get to say, "Oh, I think I'd be better off if I got this caster or that caster", because there's only one caster that will ever be relevant. Vipers are what I think a Zerg caster should look like, and the Infestor doesn't quite fit into that.
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On September 23 2012 13:22 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 01:23 Bellazuk wrote:
People should not even think about whinning on balance until they reach the very top level, if you lose that's because it's your fault, you can still increase your skills alot and people instead of doing an introspection of theirself they prefer to whine about balance while there's so much to accomplish between your two ears :D
And btw as a bw player, I agree with some of you guyz , there shouldnt be a situation where in you make 1 small mistake, you lose the game, and I think blizzard should just take a look on maps, in WOL maps are too much similar. This is a logical fallacy called Tu Quoque. You have all the rights in the world to state your opinions on balance regardless of your skill level. Progamers and high leaguers like to invalidate opinions other people have simply because of their skill level, but the truth is, anyone can have a good and accurate opinion on balance. If I see a pro a-move infesters into a wall of zealots, despite my placement in Platinum, I can say, "Hey, that was a stupid move." And the same goes with balance. I'll admit, there is a level of understanding that is very difficult to grasp unless you've actually experienced managing four drops, or microing mutalisks, or feedbacking banshees, or whatever. However, to say that just because someone is not good at the game equates to them not having valid opinions on the game is not true at all and it needs to fucking stop. I'm really tired of it.
While this is true, you have to consider that balance is on two different levels when looked at b/w bronze and GM. One poor example of this: One banshee can technically kill infinite marines with superb control. At high levels, this is viable. Give a bronze player a banshee and he'll A-move it into marines and die. Does this mean that banshees are useless TvT? At bronze league, they're not viable (this may very well be untrue, but its my example). They require too much skill to be effective. At a high level, banshee micro can make all the difference in the world. The banshee may pay for itself many times over. This is oversimplified... Another example: look at deathballs. They can be picked apart at high levels by counter attacking and excellent surrounds, spell usage and control. Give a Protoss player a death ball at bronze league and theres no way a bronze zerg can beat that, his infestors won't cast, his broodlords won't be positioned well... etc.
That being said, you don't have to be excellent yourself to discuss or understand balance, but you can't look at it from your level if you're bronze. The game may not be balanced for you, because the game is designed to lift you out of bronze to where you can access your full potential. I agree that everyones opinion should be considered but it doesn't make sense to listen to balance discussion at a bronze level. If bronze players can't split marines to soft counter banelings, does that mean banelings need a nerf?
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On September 22 2012 01:23 Bellazuk wrote:
People should not even think about whinning on balance until they reach the very top level, if you lose that's because it's your fault, you can still increase your skills alot and people instead of doing an introspection of theirself they prefer to whine about balance while there's so much to accomplish between your two ears :D
And btw as a bw player, I agree with some of you guyz , there shouldnt be a situation where in you make 1 small mistake, you lose the game, and I think blizzard should just take a look on maps, in WOL maps are too much similar.
Some examples from top of my head:
5-rax reaper, marine/scv push, 2-rax bunker cheese, 1 supply roach, BFH... these imbalances were very apparent even for a silver league player. They needed to be addressed, and they got fixed. Don't come here with "l2p" attitude, being smart and spit out some bs. Have no opinion on balance? Stay away from this thread.
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Both fungal and storm are to unforgiving imo. Terrans can lose games in 2-3 seconds when fungal or storm blankets hit. Especially fungal is so unforgiving for the enemy, and with banelings on the field its even more so. But the pro's are so skilled that they deal quite well with it and they force out so much energy and also kill so many infestors/ht that it becomes a trade. But I really think that its very disheartening for a mid/low skilled player to macro 14 min and then walk out on the map, forget to scan ahead, and all of the sudden you are locked in place by fungal with banelings coming at you. The game is lost right there.
I woud like to see fungal be remade in to something like Faerie Fire from WC3 which was a debuff on an enemy unit that reduced armor. What if fungal did some instant dmg aoe, but also reduced the armor on all the units in a area for some amount of time.
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On October 01 2012 23:04 Fjodorov wrote:
Both fungal and storm are to unforgiving imo. Terrans can lose games in 2-3 seconds when fungal or storm blankets hit. Especially fungal is so unforgiving for the enemy, and with banelings on the field its even more so. But the pro's are so skilled that they deal quite well with it and they force out so much energy and also kill so many infestors/ht that it becomes a trade. But I really think that its very disheartening for a mid/low skilled player to macro 14 min and then walk out on the map, forget to scan ahead, and all of the sudden you are locked in place by fungal with banelings coming at you. The game is lost right there.
I woud like to see fungal be remade in to something like Faerie Fire from WC3 which was a debuff on an enemy unit that reduced armor. What if fungal did some instant dmg aoe, but also reduced the armor on all the units in a area for some amount of time.
You can be 50 supply ahead and still can lose as terran if you run into fungals or storm so unfair 
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On September 25 2012 10:11 Acritter wrote:
I think Fungal is not imbalanced, as is clearly shown by Zerg not dominating Protoss to a ridiculous (10%+) extent on a competitive level. Fungal is just poorly designed. Unfortunately, it's a large part of the Zerg race, and can't easily be fixed. I suppose the big question with it is: what is it that Zerg players REQUIRE from Fungal, and what parts can be removed/deferred until a later caster unit? For example, would it be possible to give the Infestor Ensnare, and then reintroduce the Defiler with Plague to give Zerg a stronger lategame presence to make up for the lower midgame? NOTE: this is not the solution I am proposing. It's just the style of solution I'm proposing.
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that a single massable caster that's good against anything is good for the game or good for Zerg as a race. Hell, the Science Vessel only squeezed through because it was so tough to build and so gas-intensive. What it means for Zerg is that they really only have one option. They don't get to say, "Oh, I think I'd be better off if I got this caster or that caster", because there's only one caster that will ever be relevant. Vipers are what I think a Zerg caster should look like, and the Infestor doesn't quite fit into that.
I fully agree on this, the problem with Infestor is not related to balance but to game design. Overall the ZvP and ZvT match up are pretty much well balanced, but late game infestor/Brood Lord, especially in ZvP, isn't that much interesting to play and to watch. It's true that fungal and infested terran can be the answer to everything, but on the other hand, there is no other answer in late game, all other zerg core units melt in against a late game protoss army so you have to rely on spell caster, Brood Lord and defensive building. That kind of problem cannot be easily fixed, because a big nerf to infestor would require to tweak every other Zerg unit to compensate.
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On October 01 2012 23:18 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 10:11 Acritter wrote:
I think Fungal is not imbalanced, as is clearly shown by Zerg not dominating Protoss to a ridiculous (10%+) extent on a competitive level. Fungal is just poorly designed. Unfortunately, it's a large part of the Zerg race, and can't easily be fixed. I suppose the big question with it is: what is it that Zerg players REQUIRE from Fungal, and what parts can be removed/deferred until a later caster unit? For example, would it be possible to give the Infestor Ensnare, and then reintroduce the Defiler with Plague to give Zerg a stronger lategame presence to make up for the lower midgame? NOTE: this is not the solution I am proposing. It's just the style of solution I'm proposing.
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that a single massable caster that's good against anything is good for the game or good for Zerg as a race. Hell, the Science Vessel only squeezed through because it was so tough to build and so gas-intensive. What it means for Zerg is that they really only have one option. They don't get to say, "Oh, I think I'd be better off if I got this caster or that caster", because there's only one caster that will ever be relevant. Vipers are what I think a Zerg caster should look like, and the Infestor doesn't quite fit into that. I fully agree on this, the problem with Infestor is not related to balance but to game design. Overall the ZvP and ZvT match up are pretty much well balanced, but late game infestor/Brood Lord, especially in ZvP, isn't that much interesting to play and to watch. It's true that fungal and infested terran can be the answer to everything, but on the other hand, there is no other answer in late game, all other zerg core units melt in against a late game protoss army so you have to rely on spell caster, Brood Lord and defensive building. That kind of problem cannot be easily fixed, because a big nerf to infestor would require to tweak every other Zerg unit to compensate.
maybe we will see a infestor nerf in hots when there are units like the viper to fill in the role in the lategame 
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Yeah that would be cool, I feel like a "good" nerf to the Infestor would be to increase a lot how much supply it takes (like make it 4 instead of two), such as it will still be a good support unit but that you cannot mass over 8-10 to cast infinity fungal and a quadrillion infested terran, or lower the maximal energy (150 instead of 200 for example).
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On September 23 2012 13:22 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 01:23 Bellazuk wrote:
People should not even think about whinning on balance until they reach the very top level, if you lose that's because it's your fault, you can still increase your skills alot and people instead of doing an introspection of theirself they prefer to whine about balance while there's so much to accomplish between your two ears :D
And btw as a bw player, I agree with some of you guyz , there shouldnt be a situation where in you make 1 small mistake, you lose the game, and I think blizzard should just take a look on maps, in WOL maps are too much similar. This is a logical fallacy called Tu Quoque. You have all the rights in the world to state your opinions on balance regardless of your skill level. Progamers and high leaguers like to invalidate opinions other people have simply because of their skill level, but the truth is, anyone can have a good and accurate opinion on balance. If I see a pro a-move infesters into a wall of zealots, despite my placement in Platinum, I can say, "Hey, that was a stupid move." And the same goes with balance. I'll admit, there is a level of understanding that is very difficult to grasp unless you've actually experienced managing four drops, or microing mutalisks, or feedbacking banshees, or whatever. However, to say that just because someone is not good at the game equates to them not having valid opinions on the game is not true at all and it needs to fucking stop. I'm really tired of it.
You're comparing apples to oranges here. Low-level players are capable of having a well-informed opinion on balance as long as it is solely based on their interpretation of professional matches. But I have a feeling that is rarely the case. What's more likely happening is Mr. Platinum Protoss sees Vortex miss or get neuraled in a professional match, identifies with how hard it is for him to stop Infestors in Platinum league, and decides that they are imbalanced. But he's come to his conclusion from two different sets of information.
Professional players come with a lot of bias when they provide opinions on balance, but they are the most qualified to make suggestions on what may be imbalanced, because professional games contain the least mistakes. The fewer mistakes that are made, the more apparent certain imbalances become. If Symbol and Seed both play a perfect game, with no mistakes, but Symbol smacks him down, we're talking about an imbalance here. Platinum players make lots of mistakes, both in winning and losing games, so how are you going to pin anything on balance?
As long as low-level players are basing their balance opinions on the GSL, I see no reason why their opinion can't be valid. but if you'll recall back in early SC2 everyone was screaming bloody murder about early bio pressure in PvT. While there were some tweaks made to Terran, I don't think any of them made quite as big of a difference as people learning how to use Force Field and Guardian Shield to scare Terran into not committing his army and getting cut off. In lower leagues there is almost always something you could be doing better to overcome your perceived "imbalance."
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Problem: cannon rushes are all too good if you know how to do them
Solution: make cannons cost 25 gas to delay cannon timings.
Side effects: No early defenses for Protoss other than a zealot/stalker.
I think this MAY be a good idea, but please prove me wrong. I'm only gold XD
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I have a feeling that you just died to a cannon rush before posting this.
PvZ FFE would be impossible with gas requirement for cannons.
Cannon itself is fine. All Blizzard needs to do is to add a neutral depot at ramp to prevent pylon blocks into cannon.
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On October 01 2012 23:06 Lomo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 23:04 Fjodorov wrote:
Both fungal and storm are to unforgiving imo. Terrans can lose games in 2-3 seconds when fungal or storm blankets hit. Especially fungal is so unforgiving for the enemy, and with banelings on the field its even more so. But the pro's are so skilled that they deal quite well with it and they force out so much energy and also kill so many infestors/ht that it becomes a trade. But I really think that its very disheartening for a mid/low skilled player to macro 14 min and then walk out on the map, forget to scan ahead, and all of the sudden you are locked in place by fungal with banelings coming at you. The game is lost right there.
I woud like to see fungal be remade in to something like Faerie Fire from WC3 which was a debuff on an enemy unit that reduced armor. What if fungal did some instant dmg aoe, but also reduced the armor on all the units in a area for some amount of time. You can be 50 supply ahead and still can lose as terran if you run into fungals or storm so unfair
You can be 100 supply ahead as Zerg and lose by getting vortexed. You stop this the same way you stop the other two. Spread your units. If you are incapable of doing this you will have a rough time going up the ladder
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EPT
