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On September 21 2012 00:04 bittman wrote:
In short: no I don't think the results mean a thing towards balance. Players, and everything connected to them, make results. Balance is in the games, not the final result.
I understand where you are coming from. However, that is just not true because blizzard 'balances' based on the results.
For example, let's assume Koreans did not play SC2 and the entire scene was foreigners. Do you think the Queen range buff patch would have gone in?
Or when creep nerf and raven buff was about to take place and Mvp showed off his hellion/banshee into mech build at IEM and suddenly those changes are halted. I am not saying it was just Mvp's games but I am sure it was a pretty big factor.
And players are definitely the most important factor (since all 3 races win and loss) but you cannot ignore balance and maps. I think if we take the same players now and bring them back to July/Aug patch and maps, we would see different results. Would we see the exact same players from July/Aug dominate? Probably not, because players skill level are different (some drop while others increase. But I am pretty sure it would be different from using current patch and maps.
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I think one of the reasons we are seeing a decline in high league terrans globally is the ever-increasing size of the maps in the ladder pool.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
Here you can clearly see what appears to be evidence of a skill imbalance. It appears tougher to reach GM and Masters with terran than it does with the other races.
In the TvZ matchup, terran obviously has trouble with large maps because of the zergs early game scouting abilities combined with long rush dinstances. This enables zerg to play with utmost greed and exploit the benefits of the zerg race to the fullest.
In the TvP matchup, the problem with large maps is the warp mechanic. Long rush distances generally means terran 1 bases will fail, thus necessitating a 1rax FE. The unfair thing about warp is, protoss can effectively proxy 7 gateways right outside your natural and take full advantage of the terrans (necessary) greedy play.
I think P has way too many early game options vs T on large maps, and I think Z has way too comfortable of a time reaching 70 drones vs T. I think it's mostly the maps.
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Maps have been contracting slightly, though. We're a good bit down from the high water mark of tal'darim altar.
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After watching Seed's entire lategame army disintegrate against infestor/broodlord/corruptor two games in a row, I have to ask: is PvZ lategame still considered "okay"? Are infestors too good against everything Protoss, especially air?
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On September 21 2012 05:12 NapNap wrote:
After watching Seed's entire lategame army disintegrate against infestor/broodlord/corruptor two games in a row, I have to ask: is PvZ lategame still considered "okay"? Are infestors too good against everything Protoss, especially air?
Infestors are just too good in general. There is not a drawback towards making them since they can be good against any unit your opponent can make. This is true in every matchup.
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On September 21 2012 05:12 NapNap wrote:
After watching Seed's entire lategame army disintegrate against infestor/broodlord/corruptor two games in a row, I have to ask: is PvZ lategame still considered "okay"? Are infestors too good against everything Protoss, especially air?
I wanted to post the same thing with my original post, but in the first game seed lost his base, and that's why he lost
in game two, the simple fact that he didn't dump his archons made him lose as well.
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On September 21 2012 05:12 NapNap wrote:
After watching Seed's entire lategame army disintegrate against infestor/broodlord/corruptor two games in a row, I have to ask: is PvZ lategame still considered "okay"? Are infestors too good against everything Protoss, especially air?
Yeah, drewbie was saying that too. Not that infestors are too strong, but they're good vs everything, and whats most annoying fungal restricts any sort of micro.
I suggest make fungal as Invoker's sunstrike (or Leona's ult). So that it hits with some delay, and shows the location its gonna hit.
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On September 21 2012 05:12 NapNap wrote:
After watching Seed's entire lategame army disintegrate against infestor/broodlord/corruptor two games in a row, I have to ask: is PvZ lategame still considered "okay"? Are infestors too good against everything Protoss, especially air?
Seed's game are not an acceptable exemple of the average PvZ, he let his entire entire army get caught by two fungal G1
And his entire carriers army caught by a single fungal G3 (Then proceed to voluntary engage 200 infested marines with void rays without backing off, but I think the game was over way before that point)
When Zerg player complain about Archon toilet, they are (rightfully) told to split their army, it's pretty much the same thing for protoss
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everybody's forgetting that he didn't dump his archons to kill the corruptors in game 3 as well...
with that being said, I don't know if they were just constantly fungal'd, it was hard to tell but still, it made it look like he just didn't do it.
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On September 21 2012 05:27 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 05:12 NapNap wrote:
After watching Seed's entire lategame army disintegrate against infestor/broodlord/corruptor two games in a row, I have to ask: is PvZ lategame still considered "okay"? Are infestors too good against everything Protoss, especially air? Seed's game are not an acceptable exemple of the average PvZ, he let his entire entire army get caught by two fungal G1 And his entire carriers army caught by a single fungal G3 (Then proceed to voluntary engage 200 infested marines with void rays without backing off, but I think the game was over way before that point) When Zerg player complain about Archon toilet, they are (rightfully) told to split their army, it's pretty much the same thing for protoss
So basically Protoss isn't allowed to get hit once by a single Fungal throughout the entire game? Sounds fair.
On September 21 2012 05:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:
everybody's forgetting that he didn't dump his archons to kill the corruptors in game 3 as well...
with that being said, I don't know if they were just constantly fungal'd, it was hard to tell but still, it made it look like he just didn't do it.
He didn't do it because it wouldn't have done anything. Corruptors are fast. BLs are not. Symbol explained in his interview.
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On September 21 2012 05:46 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 05:27 Protosnake wrote:On September 21 2012 05:12 NapNap wrote:
After watching Seed's entire lategame army disintegrate against infestor/broodlord/corruptor two games in a row, I have to ask: is PvZ lategame still considered "okay"? Are infestors too good against everything Protoss, especially air? Seed's game are not an acceptable exemple of the average PvZ, he let his entire entire army get caught by two fungal G1 And his entire carriers army caught by a single fungal G3 (Then proceed to voluntary engage 200 infested marines with void rays without backing off, but I think the game was over way before that point) When Zerg player complain about Archon toilet, they are (rightfully) told to split their army, it's pretty much the same thing for protoss So basically Protoss isn't allowed to get hit once by a single Fungal throughout the entire game? Sounds fair. Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 05:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:
everybody's forgetting that he didn't dump his archons to kill the corruptors in game 3 as well...
with that being said, I don't know if they were just constantly fungal'd, it was hard to tell but still, it made it look like he just didn't do it. He didn't do it because it wouldn't have done anything. Corruptors are fast. BLs are not. Symbol explained in his interview.
i think it's easy for symbol to say that, but he still would have done significantly more damage than he did by not doing it...
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So basically Protoss isn't allowed to get hit once by a single Fungal throughout the entire game? Sounds fair.
Is zerg allowed to get hit once by Vortex ? He is as long as he doesnt allow his opponent to be too much cost effective with it
Fungals are not infinite and take time to deal their damage, just do like the dude in front of you, split, that's as fair as it get
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On September 21 2012 07:47 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +
So basically Protoss isn't allowed to get hit once by a single Fungal throughout the entire game? Sounds fair.
Is zerg allowed to get hit once by Vortex ? He is as long as he doesnt allow his opponent to be too much cost effective with it Fungals are not infinite and take time to deal their damage, just do like the dude in front of you, split, that's as fair as it get
Evidently yes. All of Symbol's Corruptors got Vortexed and it didn't change anything.Fungals may not be infinite, but they might as well be compared to the single Mothership that's on the field. You can't just split a Protoss army or it becomes weaker and useless. Besides, how do you split Interceptors? Carriers? How do you split these things without them getting picked off by the 30 Corruptors sweeping in?
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wtf. infestor fungal is << sieged tank shot. less range, less dps, no instant damage, need to cast manually. actually the 4 second duration of a fungal is a disadvantage compared to instant damage of other splash units
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Guys don't start talking about how PvZ is unfair and using Seeds game as a example... Seed is a code s winner and had to take out many of the worlds best zergs to get there... obviously Seeds results show that the PvZ is balanced in the late game and if your going to use a replay as a example don't use his..
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On September 21 2012 08:17 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
wtf. infestor fungal is << sieged tank shot. less range, less dps, no instant damage, need to cast manually. actually the 4 second duration of a fungal is a disadvantage compared to instant damage of other splash units
wat
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I think there should be something said to a relatively large scale about how fungal growth shuts down air tech. And the mechanic most questionable is fungal growth stoping air units from moving, and after several casts completey destroying a fleet of units. Shuting down phoenix, voidrays, muta, and vikings.
The archon toilet is a much bigger investment and a lot less frequent than, fungal growth. I don't see how the two situations are equal. They're many counters to the vortex and one of them is the infestor.
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On September 21 2012 07:47 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +
So basically Protoss isn't allowed to get hit once by a single Fungal throughout the entire game? Sounds fair.
Is zerg allowed to get hit once by Vortex ? He is as long as he doesnt allow his opponent to be too much cost effective with it Fungals are not infinite and take time to deal their damage, just do like the dude in front of you, split, that's as fair as it get
Sorry for butting in but I don't think that a 75 energy spell of a massable 2nd-tier unit should be comparable to a 100 energy spell of a unique 4th tier unit, even more so as Vortex deals 0 damage and makes its targets invulnerable.
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On September 21 2012 05:21 Shasta37 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 05:12 NapNap wrote:
After watching Seed's entire lategame army disintegrate against infestor/broodlord/corruptor two games in a row, I have to ask: is PvZ lategame still considered "okay"? Are infestors too good against everything Protoss, especially air? Infestors are just too good in general. There is not a drawback towards making them since they can be good against any unit your opponent can make. This is true in every matchup.
Plus it takes you right to hive and brood lords. There's no decision or cost to it really.
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On September 21 2012 08:59 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:47 Protosnake wrote:
So basically Protoss isn't allowed to get hit once by a single Fungal throughout the entire game? Sounds fair.
Is zerg allowed to get hit once by Vortex ? He is as long as he doesnt allow his opponent to be too much cost effective with it Fungals are not infinite and take time to deal their damage, just do like the dude in front of you, split, that's as fair as it get Sorry for butting in but I don't think that a 75 energy spell of a massable 2nd-tier unit should be comparable to a 100 energy spell of a unique 4th tier unit, even more so as Vortex deals 0 damage and makes its targets invulnerable.
It's the balance discussion, not the game of pretend discussion, anything that enter an archon toilet will get obliterated, vortex is basicly a super-fungal
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EPT
