EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 358
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On August 23 2012 15:03 convention wrote: Not only is that low statistics, look at the participants. It is just like IEM, where the best participants were all terrans, so it was not surprising at all when terran did the best as a race. For WCS, the protoss lineup has all of the best of the best protoss players, whereas terran and zerg do not have their best players participating. This is also the first time that protoss have finally done extremely well in a GSL/high level korean tournament, and there were no recent patches that would have buff toss. Basically, maybe there is a shift, but after one good high level korean tournament were they have all of their top players and the other races do not is a poor indication of protoss dominance. From what i know all the best players participated in WCS since its prestigous tournaments. They just didnt qualify from preliminaries (like MMA and MKP). Taeja from what i remember did not participate. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On August 23 2012 15:03 convention wrote: Not only is that low statistics, look at the participants. It is just like IEM, where the best participants were all terrans, so it was not surprising at all when terran did the best as a race. For WCS, the protoss lineup has all of the best of the best protoss players, whereas terran and zerg do not have their best players participating. This is also the first time that protoss have finally done extremely well in a GSL/high level korean tournament, and there were no recent patches that would have buff toss. Basically, maybe there is a shift, but after one good high level korean tournament were they have all of their top players and the other races do not is a poor indication of protoss dominance. GSL 2 this year was also pretty Protoss favored. As for IEM, the skill gap is arguably much larger than WCS Korea. But you are right, they had a less than stellar showing. This is why MLG is going to be interesting this weekend. There's going to be quite a few big names, and I'm interested to see if there are going to be any lopsided results or upsets. | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
On August 23 2012 15:22 aksfjh wrote: GSL 2 this year was also pretty Protoss favored. As for IEM, the skill gap is arguably much larger than WCS Korea. But you are right, they had a less than stellar showing. This is why MLG is going to be interesting this weekend. There's going to be quite a few big names, and I'm interested to see if there are going to be any lopsided results or upsets. Protoss is absolutely out of control in Korea , it's weird no one is talking about it, people are focusing on Foreign Z vs Foreign T mostly it seems on their whine. See WCS and past 2 GSL's. | ||
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
Suggestion: Change the Oracle's Entomb ability for something that is both effective (i.e. that kills workers) and that isn't nullified by a couple of turrets. Or just give us a droppable unit that kills workers quickly. | ||
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ThirdDegree
United States329 Posts
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aBstractx
United States287 Posts
On August 30 2012 02:50 ThirdDegree wrote: To anyone who has had the chance to play HotS, specifically as or against zerg, has anyone used fungal in conjunction with blinding cloud? It could take some decent micro or what have you, but I wonder how terrans will deal with being rooted and no range on their units aside from splitting. Not a balance whine (I play toss), but just wondering how one would deal with that. sounds similar to using zerglings/ultralisks under dark swarm | ||
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Kovaz
Canada233 Posts
On August 30 2012 02:49 Empirimancer wrote: Problem: All Protoss harassing options are either bad (zealot drops), demand ultra-high tech (DT drops, HT drops), or are nullified by a little static defense (phoenixes, Oracles). Suggestion: Change the Oracle's Entomb ability for something that is both effective (i.e. that kills workers) and that isn't nullified by a couple of turrets. Or just give us a droppable unit that kills workers quickly. How about this: Entomb locks down the workers, rather than the mineral patches. It would be slightly more effective when used on its own, as the workers themselves can't just kill the shields, but you could pair it with zealot/DT drops to do devastating damage. Obviously you'd have to rethink the duration, HP, and area of effect, but I think design-wise it makes much more sense. | ||
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rembrant
62 Posts
On August 30 2012 02:49 Empirimancer wrote: Problem: All Protoss harassing options are either bad (zealot drops), demand ultra-high tech (DT drops, HT drops), or are nullified by a little static defense (phoenixes, Oracles). Suggestion: Change the Oracle's Entomb ability for something that is both effective (i.e. that kills workers) and that isn't nullified by a couple of turrets. Or just give us a droppable unit that kills workers quickly. Well I highly disagree that toss has bad harass, warp prisms are amazing, like a flying nydus that only costs minerals. But yeah, I dislike the oracle cuz it just seems like such a wussy unit for protoss. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On August 30 2012 02:49 Empirimancer wrote: Problem: All Protoss harassing options are either bad (zealot drops), demand ultra-high tech (DT drops, HT drops), or are nullified by a little static defense (phoenixes, Oracles). Suggestion: Change the Oracle's Entomb ability for something that is both effective (i.e. that kills workers) and that isn't nullified by a couple of turrets. Or just give us a droppable unit that kills workers quickly. Protoss harass is fine (I'm a protoss player, it's not bias), and can be effective. Remember that zealot warp ins don't have to be super effective: you're trading your own minerals for damage, and toss often has an overabundance of minerals. It doesn't need to be as strong as terran or zerg's version. I would, however, like to see protoss air tech become more viable without completely redesigning it. Pheonix are useless against terran most of the time because terran doesn't usually open mech or banshee vs. protoss. Void rays suck in all matchups except for a specific PvZ timing. Carriers are pretty useless except in super late game PvZ. Tempest looks awful, does almost no damage and there's no reliable way to guarantee vision like scan to take advantage of it's range, as all the enemy needs is any detection of any kind to deny vision. Oracle would be great if it had more hp (it's as weak as the warp prism was before it's hp buff, it'll die if you sneeze on it), but it's really gimmicky and really easy to stop, and the other spells simply aren't really useful. AoE cloak is kinda cool, but the thing is, again, made of paper, and detection isn't exactly hard to come by in this game. The vision spell isn't all that useful either, it's duration isn't long enough nor is it's radius big enough, and seeing what's researching isn't all that useful, as you almost always know anyway based on context. The purpose of that spell is almost entirely defensive so you don't have to go robo opener to defend enemy cloak openings, but again, it's duration isn't long enough for that to be reliable, so you'd have to get observers anyway. Void rays honestly have to be replaced with something less stupid. I mean, the unit runs entirely counter-intuitive: usually in a fight you want your units to do as much DPS as possible immediately to reduce your enemy's DPS as much as possible. The void ray, in taking time to charge up, runs entirely counter to how you would want it to function in an army vs. army battle. Without flux vanes it's not good for harass past the initial PvZ timing, it's basically a useless unit. Protoss air unit design is stupid as fuck. It's like Blizzard is giving them deliberately poorly designed units just so they can be different from zerg or terran. | ||
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WrexSC2
United States51 Posts
Generally the first 3 bases of a Terran are orbitals. When a Terran hits max they are often out on the map establishing map control. This means that any suicide attacks on these 3 Terran bases are very effective as there is often no defense. Even when a bunker is thrown down at a choke point to start the game it is often salvaged for minerals. Why not leave one bunker filled with marauders at each choke point and repair it if it's attacked? What really gets me is the only time you see anything like this is with DTs. If it's zealots the general response is "I'll just send some of my army back to fight or use my newly produced units to fight." Zerg has creep they can use to quickly return to defend. Protoss has the warp-in ability. Terran has nothing... yet their play styles do not reflect this as they continue to ball up their army and roam around the map. | ||
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
On August 30 2012 03:32 Whitewing wrote: Protoss harass is fine (I'm a protoss player, it's not bias), and can be effective. Remember that zealot warp ins don't have to be super effective: you're trading your own minerals for damage, and toss often has an overabundance of minerals. It doesn't need to be as strong as terran or zerg's version. Well, my complaint is that a Terran marine drop or a bunch of mutas can be effective enough to turn a game around, rather than slightly chip at the opponent's economy, and I wish Protoss would have something like that. Void rays honestly have to be replaced with something less stupid. I mean, the unit runs entirely counter-intuitive: usually in a fight you want your units to do as much DPS as possible immediately to reduce your enemy's DPS as much as possible. The void ray, in taking time to charge up, runs entirely counter to how you would want it to function in an army vs. army battle. Without flux vanes it's not good for harass past the initial PvZ timing, it's basically a useless unit. Agreed. My fix to void rays would be to replace the charge-up mechanic with a cooldown ability that increases damage for, say, 5 seconds. This would make voidrays into surgical strike air units. For harassment purposes, they could be used to take down anti-air static defenses so phoenixes could get in range to lift probes. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On August 30 2012 02:37 sibs wrote: Protoss is absolutely out of control in Korea , it's weird no one is talking about it, people are focusing on Foreign Z vs Foreign T mostly it seems on their whine. See WCS and past 2 GSL's. Yes, just look at all this protoss dominance! + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
MVPsniper said in his u&d winner's interview that sentry/immortal all-ins are on the line between being balanced and imbalanced, because it is about protoss hitting his forcefields and not zerg defending well. Also, i thought i saw ret twitter on this issue a while ago, and he was struggling with it as well. Are there people with opinions on this matter? Personally, i haven't encountered it yet with macro decent enough to say anything about this, so i dare not make any comment on is, although they appear very strong when i look at progames (at all pro game levels: code s and upcoming players) Note: i'm not looking for comments in sniper's direction, i don't care how good or bad he is. Also, it is very easy to link to the current perceived situation in tvz, but please refrain from doing so. Thanks. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On August 30 2012 03:56 Reborn8u wrote: Yes, just look at all this protoss dominance! + Show Spoiler + 10/20 finalists from last 10 tournaments on your list, not too shaby. Also since he said in Korea, we have 6/8 finalists in Korean tournaments in 2012, pretty good i would say. | ||
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nottapro
202 Posts
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On August 30 2012 03:42 Empirimancer wrote: Well, my complaint is that a Terran marine drop or a bunch of mutas can be effective enough to turn a game around, rather than slightly chip at the opponent's economy, and I wish Protoss would have something like that. It is the zealot warp-in... there are a ton of pro-games, where the toss just warps in 2 zealots at a pylon close to the 3rd or 4th when the posturing starts and they score upwards of 15 SCV kills. It's just not the core of protoss play, simply because most protoss prefer the deathball style that is so effective, but chargelots are just as capable of shutting down bases as other drops. Maybe they won't score so many worker kills, but they shut down mining for sure. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On August 30 2012 03:42 Empirimancer wrote: Well, my complaint is that a Terran marine drop or a bunch of mutas can be effective enough to turn a game around, rather than slightly chip at the opponent's economy, and I wish Protoss would have something like that. Agreed. My fix to void rays would be to replace the charge-up mechanic with a cooldown ability that increases damage for, say, 5 seconds. This would make voidrays into surgical strike air units. For harassment purposes, they could be used to take down anti-air static defenses so phoenixes could get in range to lift probes. Try going after important structures with zealots rather than workers, they tend to be far more effective at that kind of harass. Not all harass has to be economically focused, and the important part of harass, at least for Protoss, isn't in dealing damage but in forcing a pull back and threatening a severe response. Because the warp prism can keep warping in units if you want to, enemies are forced to over-react to even a small drop, which allows you to control your enemy's movement. Zealots are cheap, and do great damage for their cost. What protoss really needs is good, reliable air play. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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