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On August 13 2012 08:43 Shiori wrote:
It's just not interesting to watch TvZ anymore, because nothing actually happens until like 10 minutes in, and at that point it's just a macro contest and posturing until Infestor/BL faces off against whatever the Terran army has.
Mutaling bling vs marine tank is actually the best part of TvZ, its a shame infestors are better.
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Queens being larvaless has broken the dynamic between Zerg and Terran/Protoss. Zerg now have laravaless means of taking care of almost all strategies early game. The implicit tradeoff was that Zerg could macro or produce army better if it focused on one thing, while Terran and Protoss had an uncoupled but weaker macro and army production. Since Queens negate the army portion of their enemy's production, they just get better macro by default. This is part of why TvZ and PvZ invariably go into a stale lategame. It's hit TvZ more because PvZ has already been accustomed to giving up on early aggression even prior to the Queen buff.
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Northern Ireland23771 Posts
On August 13 2012 13:03 BlindKill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 08:43 Shiori wrote:
It's just not interesting to watch TvZ anymore, because nothing actually happens until like 10 minutes in, and at that point it's just a macro contest and posturing until Infestor/BL faces off against whatever the Terran army has. Mutaling bling vs marine tank is actually the best part of TvZ, its a shame infestors are better.
Yeah I loved watching that contrast in styles, i.e the mobile but fragile Mutaling/Bling vs the slower but more robust Marine/Tank combo, really showcased how good positioning and engagements separated the men from the boys
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I feel like the game was designed around shorter maps like we have a launch. Protoss was the aggressive race, Zerg the survive and win race, and Terran the inbetween race. (in a simple sense.) Do I think rushes and all ins were too powerful on those maps? Yes they were. But I don't think the correct solution has been to give Zerg a non-larva dependent catch all defense/vision unit and free third base. It's just a bit off that Warp Gates, the most offensive weapon in the game, belongs to the turtle race.
On the same hand, Protoss and Zerg have many poorly designed units. It's why Terran gets nerfed so much. Terran feels like a full complete race with many options and many ways to reward skill. Marine tank plays different than marine marauder plays different then straight mech plays different starport harass openings. Terran rewards skill and good decision making much more than Protoss and Zerg. And the problem is that Terran scales upwards with improving skills, where as the other two races are quick to plateau.
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On August 13 2012 09:45 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 08:43 Shiori wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think Blizzard is actually just walking on a path that's going to lead to the gradual death of the eSports scene. A combination of their obsession with turtle styles, too much rhetoric about "everyone having a solid lategame" and not enough about everyone having solid early game harassment, an understanding of harassment as being tied to raiding units (which misses the fundamental point: MMM is awesome harassment because it flows naturally out of the army; same for Infestors and Lings. Adding Stargate Reapers isn't going to be interesting; it's just an alternate Phoenix) and underemphasis on micro in favour of "terrible terrible damage" is just sending this game more and more down hill.
I appreciate that they want the game to be balanced at all levels, but the fact is that if you keep giving easy a-move alternatives to help out shitty Gold leaguers, that's going to have an effect on the pro scene, and it's almost always going to be a bad effect. I don't understand why they couldn't have made more units like the Marine, which can be microed to counter things, or the HT, which requires micro to use effectively, instead of retarded shit like the Infestor, Roach, Marauder, Colossus, and other deathball stuff that can never possibly be used in any really interesting way because they're just simplistic and boring fucking units.
This Queen change is just the latest in a long string of changes designed to produce more "macro games." You know what? Macro games in Sc2 are a dime a dozen, and roughly half of them are extremely boring split map scenarios which culminate in an unsatisfying (but pretty, I'll give them that) 200/200 deathball bonanza that is virtually devoid of micro beyond basic positioning. It's actually funny to consider that the most well-designed parts of matchups are the ones players want changed. I am, of course, talking about lategame PvT. How many Terrans lamented (and still lament) that micro baseline required to do well against Protoss in the lategame? How many Protoss players find the effects of EMP on clumped up Templar unfair? How many of them struggle to hold lategame drops, or prevent their Colossi from getting sniped? And yet, of all the non-mirrors, PvT is the only one in which the better player tends to win in a macro situation. But no, instead we have calls for stupid units like the Warhound, or buffs to the Ghost to make it easier to use.
I mean, come on. The most competitive games are difficult. That's what makes them competitive. If any idiot can pick up Sc2 and master every matchup in a year by learning 1 builds that works against everything, Sc2 isn't going to last. In that respect, we desperately need HotS to come around and fix things. But it's not looking like it's going in the right direction. Basically every unit except the Mothership Core is a bandaid for players who don't know how to control properly. Oh, you're having difficulty fighting against Colossi pushes? Here's the Viper, so now Protoss players' meticulous positioning is irrelevant. Can't macro or engage well enough to beat a Chargelot army? Here, take the battle Hellion and Warhound. Now you can a-move every game with a super boring mech army (yes, mech in Sc2 is unbelievably boring; the only interesting/skill based unit is the Siege Tank). Protoss is getting some utterly stupid unit to deal with BroodLords in the Tempest.
Look, I know none of the units in HotS are final, but they do show you Blizzard's mindset, and, right now, it isn't pretty. The problem with the Queen buff isn't so much that it makes Zerg overpowered (though I'd argue that it does) but that it makes the game simpler and means that the early and mid games are more telegraphed. It's just not interesting to watch TvZ anymore, because nothing actually happens until like 10 minutes in, and at that point it's just a macro contest and posturing until Infestor/BL faces off against whatever the Terran army has. It's not fun because none of those engagements are interesting. I greatly enjoyed Muta/Ling/Blind vs Marine/Tank because it was so mobile and dynamic and scaled so well with skill. Rather than Vikings getting Fungaled being the deciding factor in the engagement, it was about who controlled their units in such a way that they acquired the better positioning. It wasn't "oh, he got all of his Vikings caught by Fungal. GG." But instead of fostering that type of gameplay, Blizzard apparently wants to see Infestor/BL bullshit in every matchup, because I've yet to see them acknowledge how stale and skilless that composition (and similar compositions, mind you) has become. I agree with your post, especially the bolded part. I honestly think that unlimited units selection is playing a big role in this ez a-move syndrome. Call me nostalgic, but in BW, you could select only 12 units at a time, and this made the skill cap soooooooooooooo much higher than SC2. Army you 1a with today required 1a2a3a4a5a6a commands. Therefore, 1a2a3a core army, 4a5a flank, and 6a counter attack army seperation had almost same number of commands to execute as 1a2a3a4a5a6a deathball style push. In SC2, army seperation requires so many more commands and skill, so people choose deathball especially in lower leagues. Also, any GM/master can copy top SC2 pro builds somewhat decently because mechanics is easy enough with auto worker rally and nearly unlimited unit selection. On the contrary, I once heard that it took 2 pro B-teamers to copy Jaedong play because Jaedong played that fast/good. In my view, BW was considered "balanced" because skill mattered so much that slight build/race imbalance could be overcome by skill. As for SC2, balance discussion never ends because execution of the builds is so much easier that slight imbalance cannot be overcome by skill,and build vs build matters so much more than skill vs skill. By making a game that is easier for us noobs to play, Blizzard made this game so hard to balance. I wouldn't go as far to say we should revert auto worker rally or have 12 max unit selection. But maybe like 24 max unit selection = 1 page worth might be good? Then, I could see many players below gold quit playing entirely because it is just too difficult to play, but as a game that tests your skill, I don't think it is a bad change. Having to use only 3 hotkeys for your army even at pro level is insanely easy game design. Limiting maximum unit selection would wipe out 2 things from ladder:1a strategy and lower league players. Tough call because lower leaguers like us are the majority. When 150APM becomes minimum requirement to execute a build, then we would see more entertaining games from pros. It's just that you cannot do it on ladder with your master level skill.
No, no, no. Unit caps have no effect on the a-move (deathball) syndrome. If units were more effective without being in a deathball, top players would split them. The problem is that they're not. This is because of two main things;
1) The pathing allows for units to basically dry-hump each other, making ranged units incredibly effective because they can fit into an incredibly small area and shoot at the same time. Also, because they can bunch up so tightly, there is less surface area for melee units to hit them from, so melee units are relatively weaker.
2) This is accentuated by the fact that AoE has been nerfed to the ground because of the fact that units auto-clump so much.
3 things need to be done, none of which requires any changing of the engine.
1) Increase the size of collision boxes for units (doable in the Editor).
2) Make units start moving in formation (doable in the Editor).
3) Increase AoE damage/size (doable in the Editor).
This will stop ranged units from being so effective together because they will be unable to all shoot at the same time, which, when combined with an AoE buff, will heavily discourage the deathball syndrome. This will, in turn, encourage players to split their armies more (to effectively use all of the units that they have), attack on multiple fronts, and it will drastically improve defenders advantage, allowing for more comeback games as well.
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Well, the TvP HoTS preview is coming out today. Hopefully it will shine some hope on some of you.
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On August 13 2012 11:47 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 11:30 ultratorr wrote:
I notice a pattern:
T OP -> blizzard nerfs T or buffs another race -> people improve -> T OP -> blizzard nerfs T or buffs another race -> repeat...
I think this is because T by far scales the most with skill. This is a serious problem at the pro level as it makes the game really hard to balance. They can nerf or buff, but after a while T gets better again and overpowers other races. This is also a serious problem at the casual level as when the cycle repeats too many times, the game becomes too imbalanced at the casual level. Also, another reason of it could be because, as far as I know, Terran is much loved race in Korea thanks to the legacy of BoxeR, Nada, iloveoov into Flash Terran bonjwa line. Not that Zerg and Protoss are not loved nor played, but "Terran" has special meaning in Korea. Best ones almost always come out of Korea, so Terran has that going for them. I am not saying that this is the only reason, but it must be playing some role.
Terran was actually the least played race in BW professionally (by my count using the TLPD). However, I definitely agree that T (in both BW and SC2) scales the most with skill, but it scales with mechanical skill, which is what Koreans really excel at.
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On August 13 2012 14:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:
2) This is accentuated by the fact that AoE has been nerfed to the ground
Bio armies instantly melting to Storm/Colossi disagree. (;
Agree with your suggestions, though.
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On August 13 2012 14:42 SheaR619 wrote:
Well, the TvP HoTS preview is coming out today. Hopefully it will shine some hope on some of you.
Eh, HoTS will end up in the same boat as WoL. They will continue to nerf out strategies that are deemed OP whether they actually are or aren't. I think it will just end up going down the same path, your best bet is to pick a race that you think has the worst players so you have a better chance at not getting nerfed out.
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On August 13 2012 15:52 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 14:42 SheaR619 wrote:
Well, the TvP HoTS preview is coming out today. Hopefully it will shine some hope on some of you. Eh, HoTS will end up in the same boat as WoL. They will continue to nerf out strategies that are deemed OP whether they actually are or aren't. I think it will just end up going down the same path, your best bet is to pick a race that you think has the worst players so you have a better chance at not getting nerfed out.
Basically, take a look at the first major Korean tournament results. Pick the race with the least representation and in 2 years, you'll have easy mode.
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On August 13 2012 16:01 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 15:52 Neurosis wrote:On August 13 2012 14:42 SheaR619 wrote:
Well, the TvP HoTS preview is coming out today. Hopefully it will shine some hope on some of you. Eh, HoTS will end up in the same boat as WoL. They will continue to nerf out strategies that are deemed OP whether they actually are or aren't. I think it will just end up going down the same path, your best bet is to pick a race that you think has the worst players so you have a better chance at not getting nerfed out. Basically, take a look at the first major Korean tournament results. Pick the race with the least representation and in 2 years, you'll have easy mode.
This.
HOTS initial blance could be anything depending on the damage/movementspeed/energy cost tweaks.
So, picking the worst race at that point in anticipation of favorable balance patch would go a long way in 2 years.
Then history repeats itself for LotV.
Blancing work for LotV finishes in like 5-6 years from now. After a year or two, Starcraft 3 gets announced.
That is the future that awaits us.
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how do you beat terran air as zerg consisting of ravens, vikings, bio force, as well as a couple thors?
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/nestea-z-vs-kas-t-iem-gamescom-day-2-group-b/
this game what could have nestea done? even if he tech switched into ultras, that would be a stupid choice considering he had all the tools he needed such as maraders and thors to counter.
how can zerg counter this, especially after patch soon to come which buffs ravens and nerfs zerg creep spread to make things worse?
a few problems i see with your reply. See his ravens aren't clumped. Few are in the front, few are behind. Fungal doesn't work. With the insane range vikings have, the only person getting damaged will be the zerg's unit if they don't engage. Also if you split, what's going to kill stimmed bio units? Nothing. Nothing at all. I have been also thinking what can deal with this for almost 2 months. The best i've got was massing spores. But with marines harrassing at all fronts, unlike pvz, you cannot just mass spores here.
a few problems i see with your reply. See his ravens aren't clumped. Few are in the front, few are behind. Fungal doesn't work. With the insane range vikings have, the only person getting damaged will be the zerg's unit if they don't engage. Also if you split, what's going to kill stimmed bio units? Marines beat split BLS Nothing. Nothing at all. I have been also thinking what can deal with this for almost 2 months. The best i've got was massing spores. But with marines harrassing at all fronts, unlike pvz, you do not have enough incom to just mass spores here.
See terran has these things called Mules and ocs, enabling them to not have nearly as much supplies in food, and this doesn't require super late game as you have mentioned. With the range of siege tanks, pfs, and vikings, defending is a joke as terran. I don't see a problem not being able to defend against zerg in a defence position as terran. Now if indeed the clock is ticking against the zerg, does that mean you consider and notice a slight imbalance there? Now even then, terran is being buffed, while zerg is being nerfed. Do you believe that it should be the other way around?
To be honest though, did you forget that ravens in that numbers can still kill ground units just as fast? especially if they are clumped. you can't just split up your ultras when attacking because they are meelee. They clump up as they attack. Especially zerglings, they will die so fast. With PFS, siege tanks, and maruaders, plus ravens to add to that, no way ultras are going to even touch a terran army.
thank you.
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On August 19 2012 01:26 pyrostat wrote:how do you beat terran air as zerg consisting of ravens, vikings, bio force, as well as a couple thors? http://day9.tv/d/Day9/nestea-z-vs-kas-t-iem-gamescom-day-2-group-b/this game what could have nestea done? even if he tech switched into ultras, that would be a stupid choice considering he had all the tools he needed such as maraders and thors to counter. how can zerg counter this, especially after patch soon to come which buffs ravens and nerfs zerg creep spread to make things worse? a few problems i see with your reply. See his ravens aren't clumped. Few are in the front, few are behind. Fungal doesn't work. With the insane range vikings have, the only person getting damaged will be the zerg's unit if they don't engage. Also if you split, what's going to kill stimmed bio units? Nothing. Nothing at all. I have been also thinking what can deal with this for almost 2 months. The best i've got was massing spores. But with marines harrassing at all fronts, unlike pvz, you cannot just mass spores here. a few problems i see with your reply. See his ravens aren't clumped. Few are in the front, few are behind. Fungal doesn't work. With the insane range vikings have, the only person getting damaged will be the zerg's unit if they don't engage. Also if you split, what's going to kill stimmed bio units? Marines beat split BLS Nothing. Nothing at all. I have been also thinking what can deal with this for almost 2 months. The best i've got was massing spores. But with marines harrassing at all fronts, unlike pvz, you do not have enough incom to just mass spores here. See terran has these things called Mules and ocs, enabling them to not have nearly as much supplies in food, and this doesn't require super late game as you have mentioned. With the range of siege tanks, pfs, and vikings, defending is a joke as terran. I don't see a problem not being able to defend against zerg in a defence position as terran. Now if indeed the clock is ticking against the zerg, does that mean you consider and notice a slight imbalance there? Now even then, terran is being buffed, while zerg is being nerfed. Do you believe that it should be the other way around? To be honest though, did you forget that ravens in that numbers can still kill ground units just as fast? especially if they are clumped. you can't just split up your ultras when attacking because they are meelee. They clump up as they attack. Especially zerglings, they will die so fast. With PFS, siege tanks, and maruaders, plus ravens to add to that, no way ultras are going to even touch a terran army. thank you.
Infester + ling + bling.
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look
Funguls rooting needs to be made a slowing spell
and hydras would need to be buffed in some way to compensate for zergs AA being weaker
its very simple
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 19 2012 04:20 Zergrusher wrote:
look
Funguls rooting needs to be made a slowing spell
and hydras would need to be buffed in some way to compensate for zergs AA being weaker
its very simple
Fungal could be made to be a mix of plague and ensnare. Just have it do the damage it does now but make it slow rather than root. Hydras are going to be buffed anyway in HoTS with the speed buff, but against Vikings corrupters are probably the best AA to fight them.
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how come zergs dont split their army when they see ravens?
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On August 19 2012 04:35 QzYSc2 wrote:
how come zergs dont split their army when they see ravens?
Too much APM for them. They are equal to gold terrans micro.
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On August 19 2012 04:24 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 04:20 Zergrusher wrote:
look
Funguls rooting needs to be made a slowing spell
and hydras would need to be buffed in some way to compensate for zergs AA being weaker
its very simple Fungal could be made to be a mix of plague and ensnare. Just have it do the damage it does now but make it slow rather than root. Hydras are going to be buffed anyway in HoTS with the speed buff, but against Vikings corrupters are probably the best AA to fight them.
the speed buff at hive tech
doesn't address the problems the unit has before the upgrade.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On August 19 2012 04:35 QzYSc2 wrote:
how come zergs dont split their army when they see ravens?
It is not easy and sometimes not efficient to split Brood Lords against a Terran Viking-heavy army. First of all, Brood Lords clump up as soon as you tell them to attack, that's because air units have no collision. Second, Zerg relies heavily on Infestors to defeat Vikings as Zerg cannot have as many Infestors/Brood Lords AND Corruptors out while a Terran army can have superior Viking numbers to Corruptor numbers (simply because Brood Lords take a lot of supply), and you want the enemy Vikings to be attacking from one direction, so that you can fungal several Vikings instead of 1 or 2.
And if they DO encounter Ravens, Vikings are probably out as well, and if you are referring to that Nestea game, he did not see Ravens from the main base coming to his flock, and that was a bad position for him to fight at, as Infestors could not protect his Brood Lords from the air attacks coming from the main.
On August 19 2012 09:36 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 09:09 Zergrusher wrote:On August 19 2012 04:24 Qikz wrote:On August 19 2012 04:20 Zergrusher wrote:
look
Funguls rooting needs to be made a slowing spell
and hydras would need to be buffed in some way to compensate for zergs AA being weaker
its very simple Fungal could be made to be a mix of plague and ensnare. Just have it do the damage it does now but make it slow rather than root. Hydras are going to be buffed anyway in HoTS with the speed buff, but against Vikings corrupters are probably the best AA to fight them. the speed buff at hive tech doesn't address the problems the unit has before the upgrade. No, but it gives new utility, so previous problems might be irrelevant, as they are connected with the situations the hydra is in given its current speed.
Current problem with Hydras is speed, but even when that gets sorted out, Hydras are still not a very good unit unless they start costing 1 supply because of how weak they are, and Roaches are way more tanky.
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EPT
