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On August 19 2012 04:46 Thylacine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 04:35 QzYSc2 wrote:
how come zergs dont split their army when they see ravens? Too much APM for them. They are equal to gold terrans micro.
The problem is
A: Most zerg units are either very close range or meelee so they will auto clump the moment you say to attack something
B: the units that aren't A (most notable bloodlords) are to slow to split in combat and need pre splitting. This also means that said units can get picked off way easier.
It is sad but the zerg race simply doesn't seem designed for micro.
The best there is mutalisk but since its straight up inferior to infestor in power well yea...
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On August 19 2012 09:36 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 09:09 Zergrusher wrote:On August 19 2012 04:24 Qikz wrote:On August 19 2012 04:20 Zergrusher wrote:
look
Funguls rooting needs to be made a slowing spell
and hydras would need to be buffed in some way to compensate for zergs AA being weaker
its very simple Fungal could be made to be a mix of plague and ensnare. Just have it do the damage it does now but make it slow rather than root. Hydras are going to be buffed anyway in HoTS with the speed buff, but against Vikings corrupters are probably the best AA to fight them. the speed buff at hive tech doesn't address the problems the unit has before the upgrade. No, but it gives new utility, so previous problems might be irrelevant, as they are connected with the situations the hydra is in given its current speed.
that logic is so flawed
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I don't understand the people complaining about the skill cap. No one actually posting that is ever going to be in a position to actually reach it. Unless you are competing in pro tournaments there are countless things for you to improve on so i wouldn't worry about the skill ceiling being lower.
Futhermore i don't think any pros have actually reached the skill ceiling in SC2. Players are still getting better and learning new strategies.
On August 19 2012 04:46 Thylacine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 04:35 QzYSc2 wrote:
how come zergs dont split their army when they see ravens? Too much APM for them. They are equal to gold terrans micro.
I know you may not have been serious but i have seen this stated so many times with no evidence so i started just looking at my own games (as zerg and protoss). So far in about 300 games against diamond/master opponents terran have actually had the lowest average APM with zerg having the highest. There is also absolutely no correlation between the players APM and whether or not they win.
Frankly the argument that terran players need more APM is an excuse imo.
Edit: There is also a massive amount of variability. I have faced terrans in APM with 40-50 APM and i have faced ones with over 200 APM (same with the other races).
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Problem: Fungals. Micro taking away spell that provides no opportunity for the opponent to micro away from the spell or atleast mitigate some of the damage. Simply it does not force the opposing player to do anything during the duration of the spell, but rather make them pre spread and play a guessing game (when will he fungal?) the entire time before an engagement. Once the spell goes through, its just a sit and watch moment. The chain casting nature of this spell punishes the slightest of mistakes (think viking clouds just evaporating) resulting in anti climatic experience for both the players and spectators. It can also be casted straight away when the infestors are spawned with the energy upgrade.
It is simply FAR too good with the combination of other spells at the infestors disposal.
Solution:
I think the spell should atleast not take all of the control away from the opposing player but not make it completely avoidable. It is important to remember that Zs rely on fungals quite alot and these changes should not make the spell too weak.
First off it should be a projectile and retain the range. A very fast projectile compared to ghosts EMP.
OR
It should be instant with a shorter range.
Both should incorporate an upgraded visual effect (a goo smearing effect to warn the opposing player that the units have been affected) for 1 sec or something like that instead of a "pop". Think plague or ensare visual effect from BW. This shows clearly what units are affects and sort of gives a visual warning of the things to come.
Now Fungals should do damage over time but it needs to differentiate from HTs storm. The current implementation incorporates a stun effect everyone is complaining about ever since the Beta. So lets take the middle road approach "if" we want to have a damage dealing AOE spell and somehow affects the MS of enemy units.
My proposal is always been a snare effect that ramps up the MS reduction til your stuck for a few seconds. Something like 40% -> 60% -> 80% -> Stun in 1 second intervals to a x sec stun. You will be given a few seconds to micro/spread your units and unless you get careless dont get 30 marines killed by 2 stray fungals.
However, Ive also been thinking if the fungal spell should'nt be a offensive AOE damage+support (stun) dealing spell but an offensive support spell for the zerg units. So something along the lines of not dealing any damage over time but rather it stuns and gives a bonus -1 armour to the affected unit. Durations would be changed.
example: A 2 second stun then 80% reduction in MS -> 60% -> 40% -> 20% -> full MS in intervals of 1 sec. All awhile your units suffer -1 to armour (or 2, im not sure). Maybe the armour reduction can increase slowly during the duration in 0.25 intervals(?). Or the other way around hence, reduction in MS -> stun.
All the numbers are just placeholders but its the concept to make fungal more exciting.
Side Effects: Discuss.
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well why not Remove corruption From the corruptor.
Then Have fungul be like this:
A 65% slowing spell that increases damage taken by 20% that would still root blink stalkers.
Now fungul is balanced and is a great support spell for the swarmy race.
Zergs AA will be abit weaker and so will the AOE.
So you do 2 things.
1)Increase ultralisk base damage from 15 to 20
2) Buff the hydralisk(I can list 3 ways to do it properly)
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On August 19 2012 18:51 YyapSsap wrote:
Problem: Fungals. Micro taking away spell that provides no opportunity for the opponent to micro away from the spell or atleast mitigate some of the damage. Simply it does not force the opposing player to do anything during the duration of the spell, but rather make them pre spread and play a guessing game (when will he fungal?) the entire time before an engagement. Once the spell goes through, its just a sit and watch moment. The chain casting nature of this spell punishes the slightest of mistakes (think viking clouds just evaporating) resulting in anti climatic experience for both the players and spectators. It can also be casted straight away when the infestors are spawned with the energy upgrade.
It is simply FAR too good with the combination of other spells at the infestors disposal.
Solution:
I think the spell should atleast not take all of the control away from the opposing player but not make it completely avoidable. It is important to remember that Zs rely on fungals quite alot and these changes should not make the spell too weak.
First off it should be a projectile and retain the range. A very fast projectile compared to ghosts EMP.
OR
It should be instant with a shorter range.
Both should incorporate an upgraded visual effect (a goo smearing effect to warn the opposing player that the units have been affected) for 1 sec or something like that instead of a "pop". Think plague or ensare visual effect from BW. This shows clearly what units are affects and sort of gives a visual warning of the things to come.
Now Fungals should do damage over time but it needs to differentiate from HTs storm. The current implementation incorporates a stun effect everyone is complaining about ever since the Beta. So lets take the middle road approach "if" we want to have a damage dealing AOE spell and somehow affects the MS of enemy units.
My proposal is always been a snare effect that ramps up the MS reduction til your stuck for a few seconds. Something like 40% -> 60% -> 80% -> Stun in 1 second intervals to a x sec stun. You will be given a few seconds to micro/spread your units and unless you get careless dont get 30 marines killed by 2 stray fungals.
However, Ive also been thinking if the fungal spell should'nt be a offensive AOE damage+support (stun) dealing spell but an offensive support spell for the zerg units. So something along the lines of not dealing any damage over time but rather it stuns and gives a bonus -1 armour to the affected unit. Durations would be changed.
example: A 2 second stun then 80% reduction in MS -> 60% -> 40% -> 20% -> full MS in intervals of 1 sec. All awhile your units suffer -1 to armour (or 2, im not sure). Maybe the armour reduction can increase slowly during the duration in 0.25 intervals(?). Or the other way around hence, reduction in MS -> stun.
All the numbers are just placeholders but its the concept to make fungal more exciting.
Side Effects: Discuss.
I agee on fungal being a stupid spell like force field, because there is no anti-micro. However you cannot simply nerf fungal without making zerg completely under powered. If the changes you propos would be implemented, nobody would build infestors anymore.
Infestors are zerg's 'tanks', but we have to trigger shots manually and they do less damage and have a smaller range.
A possible way to nerf fungal in a non-balance breaking fashion, would be a kind of 'siege' requirement before the spell can be casted. however you would have to increase range then and make fungal cheaper (energy-wise) as there will be way more mis-shots.
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The issue with Fungal is not that it's overpowered. It's that it's poorly designed. Takes away any opportunity to micro. There's a reason that Maelstrom was only available at 100 energy on a very expensive unit after a research and even after all that did no damage and only affected bio. It's not that it would be overpoweringly strong (although this is a concern with BW Storm in the mix), but that it shuts down any opportunity for the other player to be part of the game. I'm reminded of an hour-and-a-half game of BW between a Protoss and Zerg which had a few engagements in which the Protoss used a full-energy Dark Archon to chain Maelstrom on a bunch of Devourers while they got Stormed to pieces. It's boring to watch and frustrating to play with. Only saving grace in BW is that it's so tough to successfully execute.
Maybe make Fungal deliver a -2 Armor penalty instead?
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what do u guys think about the ZVP matchup? everytime i watch or play ZVP i feel like its very stagnant.
its either 2base allins from toss or 3-xbase turtle with a push right before broodlords. i dont see many points where players can get ahead and almost everything comes down to the unit mix and 1 big fight.
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On August 20 2012 03:07 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
I agee on fungal being a stupid spell like force field, because there is no anti-micro. However you cannot simply nerf fungal without making zerg completely under powered. If the changes you propos would be implemented, nobody would build infestors anymore.
Infestors are zerg's 'tanks', but we have to trigger shots manually and they do less damage and have a smaller range.
A possible way to nerf fungal in a non-balance breaking fashion, would be a kind of 'siege' requirement before the spell can be casted. however you would have to increase range then and make fungal cheaper (energy-wise) as there will be way more mis-shots.
fungal truly is a conundrum. the root itself removes the option for retreat which is bad gameplay imo; but the state of things all-around can't justify any major changes to the spell like you suggest. Giving infesters a siege option would just be a very lame bandaid.
the spell just needs to be redesigned all together. a damage over time is good and all, but i believe the spell should be status oriented. the root currently works in conjunction with other Z lategame units (ie broodlords, ultras, speed banes), but I think an ensnare with reduced attack/move speed, and maybe a -1 to armor would work just as good while still leaving the option to micro out of unfavorable battles.
also i think a nerf to fungal might be more justified if infestors had the option to morph into another unit. (i can dream!)
however I don't see any possible changes in the pipeline so think the future of ZvX caster battles will rely on opponents aggressively keeping scouts for their armies immediate movement paths (ie, in front, along flanks, behind) to negate the unforgiving nature of fungal on a clump of units. Requires more work overall, but I think once players really get the hang of it the effectiveness of fungal will drop dramatically; inevitably leading to a meta shift away from mass infestor mid/late game.
also for hots, hydra movement speed really needs to be lair tech. hydras don't have the cost efficiency, or the sha-bang that a t3 unit has. either that or increase hydra speed baseline by a margin then have the hive upgrade be an uber attack/move speed boost.
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On August 22 2012 23:14 ChriseC wrote:
what do u guys think about the ZVP matchup? everytime i watch or play ZVP i feel like its very stagnant.
its either 2base allins from toss or 3-xbase turtle with a push right before broodlords. i dont see many points where players can get ahead and almost everything comes down to the unit mix and 1 big fight.
Yeah it's not a very exciting matchup. Hopefully HotS will give zerg more options in the midgame and protoss a better solution to BL/infestor.
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On August 19 2012 10:04 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 04:46 Thylacine wrote:On August 19 2012 04:35 QzYSc2 wrote:
how come zergs dont split their army when they see ravens? Too much APM for them. They are equal to gold terrans micro. The problem is A: Most zerg units are either very close range or meelee so they will auto clump the moment you say to attack something B: the units that aren't A (most notable bloodlords) are to slow to split in combat and need pre splitting. This also means that said units can get picked off way easier. It is sad but the zerg race simply doesn't seem designed for micro. The best there is mutalisk but since its straight up inferior to infestor in power well yea...
Neither Zerg nor Protoss seem to be designed for micro and rather have the "deathball syndrome". Sure for Protoss you have Forcefields and Blink, but Sentries are usually not remade into the late game and Stalkers are only part of the army. Thus there really isnt any need to micro well.
What I have observed in many games is a flawed useage of units (IMO) which is the fault of the "smart unit grouping" and "unlimited unit selection". This leads to Medivacs, Ravens, Infestors and so on being in the same control group and "sent to the front"; especially the caster units are almost never retreating to save their own butts after they have emptied their energy bar. Having the casters in a separate control group is at least a beginning to some minor "resource saving position change" and especially for Infestors it would be VERY helpful to have them in a separate group to give them the command to BURROW when they are empty. This lets them "get out of the way" and stay safer than above ground.
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On August 23 2012 01:03 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 10:04 Assirra wrote:On August 19 2012 04:46 Thylacine wrote:On August 19 2012 04:35 QzYSc2 wrote:
how come zergs dont split their army when they see ravens? Too much APM for them. They are equal to gold terrans micro. The problem is A: Most zerg units are either very close range or meelee so they will auto clump the moment you say to attack something B: the units that aren't A (most notable bloodlords) are to slow to split in combat and need pre splitting. This also means that said units can get picked off way easier. It is sad but the zerg race simply doesn't seem designed for micro. The best there is mutalisk but since its straight up inferior to infestor in power well yea... Neither Zerg nor Protoss seem to be designed for micro and rather have the "deathball syndrome". Sure for Protoss you have Forcefields and Blink, but Sentries are usually not remade into the late game and Stalkers are only part of the army. Thus there really isnt any need to micro well. What I have observed in many games is a flawed useage of units (IMO) which is the fault of the "smart unit grouping" and "unlimited unit selection". This leads to Medivacs, Ravens, Infestors and so on being in the same control group and "sent to the front"; especially the caster units are almost never retreating to save their own butts after they have emptied their energy bar. Having the casters in a separate control group is at least a beginning to some minor "resource saving position change" and especially for Infestors it would be VERY helpful to have them in a separate group to give them the command to BURROW when they are empty. This lets them "get out of the way" and stay safer than above ground.
If it is better to have multiple control groups, then why would we need to force them to have multiple control groups? Most of the top players have multiple control groups for their army. For instance, PartinG usually keeps groups of high templar around the map all on different control groups. Even I, a plat player, will always have a second control group for infestors/HT/ghosts. On the other hand, I think MVP actually uses only one control group for his army (I could be wrong, but I recall seeing this at IEM) but yet he has incredible army control. There really is nothing wrong with unlimited unit selection. The problem is bad people put everything on one control group and then throw away all of their infestors when they a-move their army, but I never mind when bad people lose units for free.
Also, I think the protoss army actually does require a lot of micro (at least at the highest level, not necessary lower levels). You even say how stalkers have blink, and sentries for FF and GS. But then you say how that is only part of the army, doesn't that make the army even harder to control if there are lots of parts that require micro? I think protoss micro is a lot more subtle than terran micro. With MMM, you can visibly see the army kiting backwards. With protoss, it isn't as obvious that the colossi are targeting clumps of marines instead of just the front line of marauders, and storms are not very easy to cast when the target is moving backward faster than the HT is moving forwards (the massive storms are usually a peeled off group of HT that flank the army, and HT are very slow and expensive so it is not easy to do). Again, I'm not talking about micro at the gold/plat/diamond level. I'm talking about very good players (PartinG, Squirtle, HerO,...).
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On August 23 2012 02:05 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 01:03 Rabiator wrote:On August 19 2012 10:04 Assirra wrote:On August 19 2012 04:46 Thylacine wrote:On August 19 2012 04:35 QzYSc2 wrote:
how come zergs dont split their army when they see ravens? Too much APM for them. They are equal to gold terrans micro. The problem is A: Most zerg units are either very close range or meelee so they will auto clump the moment you say to attack something B: the units that aren't A (most notable bloodlords) are to slow to split in combat and need pre splitting. This also means that said units can get picked off way easier. It is sad but the zerg race simply doesn't seem designed for micro. The best there is mutalisk but since its straight up inferior to infestor in power well yea... Neither Zerg nor Protoss seem to be designed for micro and rather have the "deathball syndrome". Sure for Protoss you have Forcefields and Blink, but Sentries are usually not remade into the late game and Stalkers are only part of the army. Thus there really isnt any need to micro well. What I have observed in many games is a flawed useage of units (IMO) which is the fault of the "smart unit grouping" and "unlimited unit selection". This leads to Medivacs, Ravens, Infestors and so on being in the same control group and "sent to the front"; especially the caster units are almost never retreating to save their own butts after they have emptied their energy bar. Having the casters in a separate control group is at least a beginning to some minor "resource saving position change" and especially for Infestors it would be VERY helpful to have them in a separate group to give them the command to BURROW when they are empty. This lets them "get out of the way" and stay safer than above ground. If it is better to have multiple control groups, then why would we need to force them to have multiple control groups? Most of the top players have multiple control groups for their army. For instance, PartinG usually keeps groups of high templar around the map all on different control groups. Even I, a plat player, will always have a second control group for infestors/HT/ghosts. On the other hand, I think MVP actually uses only one control group for his army (I could be wrong, but I recall seeing this at IEM) but yet he has incredible army control. There really is nothing wrong with unlimited unit selection. The problem is bad people put everything on one control group and then throw away all of their infestors when they a-move their army, but I never mind when bad people lose units for free. Also, I think the protoss army actually does require a lot of micro (at least at the highest level, not necessary lower levels). You even say how stalkers have blink, and sentries for FF and GS. But then you say how that is only part of the army, doesn't that make the army even harder to control if there are lots of parts that require micro? I think protoss micro is a lot more subtle than terran micro. With MMM, you can visibly see the army kiting backwards. With protoss, it isn't as obvious that the colossi are targeting clumps of marines instead of just the front line of marauders, and storms are not very easy to cast when the target is moving backward faster than the HT is moving forwards (the massive storms are usually a peeled off group of HT that flank the army, and HT are very slow and expensive so it is not easy to do). Again, I'm not talking about micro at the gold/plat/diamond level. I'm talking about very good players (PartinG, Squirtle, HerO,...).
Also as Protoss, you have to take into consideration unit speed, Stalkers being faster than Zealots and HT being slow. And in some ocasions, you also have to micro your phoenixes with rest of your army. Still, would be nice if Colossus would require more micro.
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I just had an idea, I know there are a ton of these but hear me out. Terrans late game is where a lot of terran players are having issues. Some of this has resulted from ghost nerfs, and buffs to things like prisms, immortals, queens ect. I was playing an interesting game as terran (I usually play toss) and I scouted the 2 base protoss army with about 4 colossus. Well, I made way to many vikings (there was a lot going on I was doing a lot of drops  but then something interesting happened. As soon as I killed off his colossus I landed my SIXTEEN vikings lol, and his remaining units evaporated, I had a high marauder count as well.
Getting to the point, I got interested in the viking's unit stats, take a look for yourself. (Viking stats) I was thinking that if they made the viking a little bit better in ground mode, it could help out terran's late game in some subtle ways. This is what I propose, if you split the ground dmg into 2 shots of 6 dmg instead of 1 shot of 12, the unit will get +2 per attack upgrade instead of +1. Also, give the viking some bonus dmg vs light when it is in ground mode, it gets +4 per armored in air, so I think +4 vs light would be good. The result would be that they are much better vs units like lings and zealots. Here's a list of Light units, keep in mind the bonus would not apply to air units. Right now with +3 air attack a viking does 15 dmg per attack to a ling or zealot, after these 2 changes it would do 22 dmg per shot. This also applies to workers, maybe we could actually see some of the long lost viking workers harass Another reason not to be sad you have them around.
Terran has problems against zerg and protoss tech switches. Zergs can go from muta, ling, bling, into infestors and then broodlords or ultra. Zerg can skip around these compositions somewhat readily once they have enough money late game. Protoss has switches from colossus into high templar, and from FF's into chargelots. I think vikings being buffed so they are good on the ground would help terran quite a bit late game, a terran could have a bunch of vikings mixed into his ground army and not feel like the supply is wasted or the investment. They have 1 advantage over marines, they are more resilient to splash dmg. This is because they are bigger and will cause the army to spread more naturally and also because they have slightly more health than 2 marines with combat shield put together. In a late game scenario, terran would have a unit that could ensure success against colossus but not crumble to chargelots/storm as easily as it does now. Against zerg, you could keep some around and be safer against broodlord tech and also mixed into a ground army they will help against ling bling. The only real game play change would be that terrans would want to get them upgraded 3/3 so they could fill this role well.
I don't think it will have any huge drastic side affects for balance, but could help. What do you think terran players? It couldn't hurt right?
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Here are some interesting winrate numbers from WCS Korea so far.
TvZ: 11-11 50%
TvP: 7-19 26.9%
PvZ: 28-11 71.8%
Low statistical numbers, I know, but maybe we're starting to see a shift of Protoss dominance? I'm curious to see how MLG turns out this weekend.
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On August 23 2012 14:49 aksfjh wrote:
Here are some interesting winrate numbers from WCS Korea so far.
TvZ: 11-11 50%
TvP: 7-19 26.9%
PvZ: 28-11 71.8%
Low statistical numbers, I know, but maybe we're starting to see a shift of Protoss dominance? I'm curious to see how MLG turns out this weekend.
Statistically it would be odd if occasionally there were not events having 1 race take most of the top spots, unless it becomes a pattern it really doesn't mean anything.
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On August 23 2012 14:49 aksfjh wrote:
Here are some interesting winrate numbers from WCS Korea so far.
TvZ: 11-11 50%
TvP: 7-19 26.9%
PvZ: 28-11 71.8%
Low statistical numbers, I know, but maybe we're starting to see a shift of Protoss dominance? I'm curious to see how MLG turns out this weekend.
Not only is that low statistics, look at the participants. It is just like IEM, where the best participants were all terrans, so it was not surprising at all when terran did the best as a race. For WCS, the protoss lineup has all of the best of the best protoss players, whereas terran and zerg do not have their best players participating. This is also the first time that protoss have finally done extremely well in a GSL/high level korean tournament, and there were no recent patches that would have buff toss. Basically, maybe there is a shift, but after one good high level korean tournament were they have all of their top players and the other races do not is a poor indication of protoss dominance.
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On August 23 2012 15:00 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 14:49 aksfjh wrote:
Here are some interesting winrate numbers from WCS Korea so far.
TvZ: 11-11 50%
TvP: 7-19 26.9%
PvZ: 28-11 71.8%
Low statistical numbers, I know, but maybe we're starting to see a shift of Protoss dominance? I'm curious to see how MLG turns out this weekend. Statistically it would be odd if occasionally there were not events having 1 race take most of the top spots, unless it becomes a pattern it really doesn't mean anything.
You really shouldn't have posted! Not only did you beat me out by a few minutes, but now you no longer have 1337 posts!
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EPT
