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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On October 02 2012 04:56 ThatSweatyNerd wrote:
Problem: cannon rushes are all too good if you know how to do them
Solution: make cannons cost 25 gas to delay cannon timings.
Side effects: No early defenses for Protoss other than a zealot/stalker.
I think this MAY be a good idea, but please prove me wrong. I'm only gold XD
This destroys PvZ entirely. When talking about protoss balance, always - ALWAYS - consider how bad gateway units are early game.
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On September 22 2012 01:17 ThirdDegree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 18:53 sibs wrote:
I don't understand this Protoss whining, it also seems to happen when any kind of Protoss fan favorite loses, when Stephano dismantled HerO and MC it got out of control, despite Stephano clearly playing better, apparently we have a resurgence of this because SeeD went... 3-3 vs Symbol. It's ok guys Protoss heroes are going to get eliminated some times, Protoss is really strong in korea past 3 months or so, there is no need for QQ, august stats were no fluke, I suggest you look at top finishers for GSL's and WCS Korea, there was no lack of Brotoss.
Any type of nerf to infestor or broodlord must be compensated at this point, just yelling "INFESTORSOOPNERF" is unreasonable, its the only tool zergs have to fight a bunch of protoss strategies and army comps. The whining does get out of hand some times. But the overall idea of PvZ is flawed. Late game toss has to rely on a single unit landing a spell. Win if the spell lands properly, lose if it doesn't. It's not so much imbalanced as in a faulty mechanic.
lol? what about terrans against protoss? if we dont hit perfect whit 4+ epms, we are dead... and thats alot harder than pvz late game..
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On October 02 2012 19:44 BimBoHunTeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 01:17 ThirdDegree wrote:On September 21 2012 18:53 sibs wrote:
I don't understand this Protoss whining, it also seems to happen when any kind of Protoss fan favorite loses, when Stephano dismantled HerO and MC it got out of control, despite Stephano clearly playing better, apparently we have a resurgence of this because SeeD went... 3-3 vs Symbol. It's ok guys Protoss heroes are going to get eliminated some times, Protoss is really strong in korea past 3 months or so, there is no need for QQ, august stats were no fluke, I suggest you look at top finishers for GSL's and WCS Korea, there was no lack of Brotoss.
Any type of nerf to infestor or broodlord must be compensated at this point, just yelling "INFESTORSOOPNERF" is unreasonable, its the only tool zergs have to fight a bunch of protoss strategies and army comps. The whining does get out of hand some times. But the overall idea of PvZ is flawed. Late game toss has to rely on a single unit landing a spell. Win if the spell lands properly, lose if it doesn't. It's not so much imbalanced as in a faulty mechanic. lol? what about terrans against protoss? if we dont hit perfect whit 4+ epms, we are dead... and thats alot harder than pvz late game..
Well, first, in very late game terran is , to me , not at a disadvantage because at that point they have enough ghost to emp more than needed, and are able to have with them enough vikings to prevent high collossi numbers.
But thats not my main point here. What you're saying is that T have to engage very well in the early part of late game to win the game.
Well i agree that part of the game is hard for T. But you cant compare it to PvZ.
Indeed, when Z got his Blord infestor army, the P just waits for a mistake of Z to engage, if there is no mistake, P can never take the fight (just see PvZ, why P refuses 200vs200 fight in front of their expands, even when they have huge banks? because they will get so badly raped that even if they kill a part of Z army, that won't be enough).
On a side note, if all Z played perfectly no one would do a MS. It's just a tool to make Z mistakes more costly, and to me thats the biggest issue of late game PvZ: P success is based on Z mistakes 
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EDIT: Made a separate thread.
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"We are talking about ways to make the Sentry easier to use so more Protoss players can get value out of him." - Dustin Browder posted this http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794032960?page=2#23. People have been saying for years that protoss gateway units are so weak because of how powerful force field is. I'm scared guys.
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On October 11 2012 06:54 hitpoint wrote:"We are talking about ways to make the Sentry easier to use so more Protoss players can get value out of him." - Dustin Browder posted this http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794032960?page=2#23. People have been saying for years that protoss gateway units are so weak because of how powerful force field is. I'm scared guys.
dont be scared, the makers of guitar hero cant go wrong at all
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On October 11 2012 06:54 hitpoint wrote:"We are talking about ways to make the Sentry easier to use so more Protoss players can get value out of him." - Dustin Browder posted this http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794032960?page=2#23. People have been saying for years that protoss gateway units are so weak because of how powerful force field is. I'm scared guys.
I nearly had a heartattack when I saw that(and I'm a Protoss player) until I read the thread, David Kim clarifies(in spoilers):
+ Show Spoiler +"Just to clarify, we don't mean we're changing Force Fields in any way. We love how the ability works.
What we are thinking currently for the Sentry is what if Hallucination didn't require an upgrade?
This might be good because:
1. Scouting is more important in HotS due to the added new threats.
2. Protoss has a lot of trouble vs. early Widow Mines. (Hallucinations can be a soft counter until detection is ready)
3. Players who aren't able to utilize Force Fields well will be able to use the more expensive Hallucinations to combo with their army.
Please remember all this isn't final decisions, but we're just trying to be as open about our thoughts as possible. Thanks~"
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On September 25 2012 10:11 Acritter wrote:
I think Fungal is not imbalanced, as is clearly shown by Zerg not dominating Protoss to a ridiculous (10%+) extent on a competitive level. Fungal is just poorly designed. Unfortunately, it's a large part of the Zerg race, and can't easily be fixed. I suppose the big question with it is: what is it that Zerg players REQUIRE from Fungal, and what parts can be removed/deferred until a later caster unit? For example, would it be possible to give the Infestor Ensnare, and then reintroduce the Defiler with Plague to give Zerg a stronger lategame presence to make up for the lower midgame? NOTE: this is not the solution I am proposing. It's just the style of solution I'm proposing.
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that a single massable caster that's good against anything is good for the game or good for Zerg as a race. Hell, the Science Vessel only squeezed through because it was so tough to build and so gas-intensive. What it means for Zerg is that they really only have one option. They don't get to say, "Oh, I think I'd be better off if I got this caster or that caster", because there's only one caster that will ever be relevant. Vipers are what I think a Zerg caster should look like, and the Infestor doesn't quite fit into that.
Simply change fungal to a slow instead of a snare.
On October 02 2012 05:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 04:56 ThatSweatyNerd wrote:
Problem: cannon rushes are all too good if you know how to do them
Solution: make cannons cost 25 gas to delay cannon timings.
Side effects: No early defenses for Protoss other than a zealot/stalker.
I think this MAY be a good idea, but please prove me wrong. I'm only gold XD This destroys PvZ entirely. When talking about protoss balance, always - ALWAYS - consider how bad gateway units are early game.
Gateway units aren't bad early game. While Terran infantry are certainly stronger, Zerg units are even worse and only beat gateway because of overwhelming production. Nerfing marines and spawn larvae would make gateway units pretty decent.
As for the photon cannons themselves, they just need their health (but not shields) reduced from 150 to 100, armor reduced from 1 to 0, and cooldown increased from 1.25 to 1.5.
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On October 11 2012 15:02 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 10:11 Acritter wrote:
I think Fungal is not imbalanced, as is clearly shown by Zerg not dominating Protoss to a ridiculous (10%+) extent on a competitive level. Fungal is just poorly designed. Unfortunately, it's a large part of the Zerg race, and can't easily be fixed. I suppose the big question with it is: what is it that Zerg players REQUIRE from Fungal, and what parts can be removed/deferred until a later caster unit? For example, would it be possible to give the Infestor Ensnare, and then reintroduce the Defiler with Plague to give Zerg a stronger lategame presence to make up for the lower midgame? NOTE: this is not the solution I am proposing. It's just the style of solution I'm proposing.
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that a single massable caster that's good against anything is good for the game or good for Zerg as a race. Hell, the Science Vessel only squeezed through because it was so tough to build and so gas-intensive. What it means for Zerg is that they really only have one option. They don't get to say, "Oh, I think I'd be better off if I got this caster or that caster", because there's only one caster that will ever be relevant. Vipers are what I think a Zerg caster should look like, and the Infestor doesn't quite fit into that. Simply change fungal to a slow instead of a snare. Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 05:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On October 02 2012 04:56 ThatSweatyNerd wrote:
Problem: cannon rushes are all too good if you know how to do them
Solution: make cannons cost 25 gas to delay cannon timings.
Side effects: No early defenses for Protoss other than a zealot/stalker.
I think this MAY be a good idea, but please prove me wrong. I'm only gold XD This destroys PvZ entirely. When talking about protoss balance, always - ALWAYS - consider how bad gateway units are early game. Gateway units aren't bad early game. While Terran infantry are certainly stronger, Zerg units are even worse and only beat gateway because of overwhelming production. Nerfing marines and spawn larvae would make gateway units pretty decent. As for the photon cannons themselves, they just need their health (but not shields) reduced from 150 to 100, armor reduced from 1 to 0, and cooldown increased from 1.25 to 1.5.
In other words, nerf cannons into oblivion.... why do cannons need a nerf whatsoever again?
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Complaint
Problem: Mass Orbitals (5+)/Mules
Solution: Limit Orbitals to 5/require 1 supply per Mule
Side Effects: As I see it the only side effect would be players having to manage their Macro more effectively. There's also a small potential of lessening the amount of damage some [terran] all-ins can do.
I've wanted to post this for a quiet a while now and be very clear that Mass Mules and Orbitals is something that annoys me not only from a spectator POV but also from when I play.
The way I see it Mass Orbitals (over 5) and Mass Mules in the lategame are simply to strong. Orbitals serve 2 purposes besides being a CC, Scans and Mules. Neither are available via PFs and both are the best at what they are used for; Detection, Map Awareness, and Mining. An unfortunate side effect of Mass Orbitals is the ability for Terrans to throw away SCVs to free up supply thus making their armies much larger than what other races can achieve. Zerg are capable of doing something similar in the fashion of mass building then canceling but they still can't match the results of Terrans. On the other hand Protoss are completely screwed in this regard as there's no way for them to add extra units without sacrificing economy altogether.
I do not mind the concept of Mules at all, however I find it extremely annoying when players are capable of calling them down constantly due to stupidly high amounts of Orbitals. No other race is capable of mining at such high efficiency with low amounts of workers. Sure there's larva injects and Chronoboosts to balance out the early game but in the lategame they fall way short of Mules which are also free and have no supply cost.
I just find it completely wrong that Mass Orbitals can have such a drastic impact on the lategame especially if a Terran player has lost all his workers from harassment. It's almost like a Get of a Jail free card that can be used infinitely and that bothers me and I don't find it balanced at all in the lategame.
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To sum things up I would love to see a limit of Orbitals to 5 and or a 1 supply cost for Mules which would make Terran players have to think more carefully about how they use Mules rather than being able to call down 15 at once. 15 Mules only = 3 Orbitals with full energy. How often do you see games with 5+? Pretty often, especially if the Terran is ahead in all aspects.
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On October 18 2012 17:29 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 15:02 sunprince wrote:On September 25 2012 10:11 Acritter wrote:
I think Fungal is not imbalanced, as is clearly shown by Zerg not dominating Protoss to a ridiculous (10%+) extent on a competitive level. Fungal is just poorly designed. Unfortunately, it's a large part of the Zerg race, and can't easily be fixed. I suppose the big question with it is: what is it that Zerg players REQUIRE from Fungal, and what parts can be removed/deferred until a later caster unit? For example, would it be possible to give the Infestor Ensnare, and then reintroduce the Defiler with Plague to give Zerg a stronger lategame presence to make up for the lower midgame? NOTE: this is not the solution I am proposing. It's just the style of solution I'm proposing.
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that a single massable caster that's good against anything is good for the game or good for Zerg as a race. Hell, the Science Vessel only squeezed through because it was so tough to build and so gas-intensive. What it means for Zerg is that they really only have one option. They don't get to say, "Oh, I think I'd be better off if I got this caster or that caster", because there's only one caster that will ever be relevant. Vipers are what I think a Zerg caster should look like, and the Infestor doesn't quite fit into that. Simply change fungal to a slow instead of a snare. On October 02 2012 05:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On October 02 2012 04:56 ThatSweatyNerd wrote:
Problem: cannon rushes are all too good if you know how to do them
Solution: make cannons cost 25 gas to delay cannon timings.
Side effects: No early defenses for Protoss other than a zealot/stalker.
I think this MAY be a good idea, but please prove me wrong. I'm only gold XD This destroys PvZ entirely. When talking about protoss balance, always - ALWAYS - consider how bad gateway units are early game. Gateway units aren't bad early game. While Terran infantry are certainly stronger, Zerg units are even worse and only beat gateway because of overwhelming production. Nerfing marines and spawn larvae would make gateway units pretty decent. As for the photon cannons themselves, they just need their health (but not shields) reduced from 150 to 100, armor reduced from 1 to 0, and cooldown increased from 1.25 to 1.5. In other words, nerf cannons into oblivion.... why do cannons need a nerf whatsoever again?
He's gold what do you expect :\?
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On October 11 2012 10:44 Chylith wrote:I nearly had a heartattack when I saw that(and I'm a Protoss player) until I read the thread, David Kim clarifies(in spoilers): + Show Spoiler +"Just to clarify, we don't mean we're changing Force Fields in any way. We love how the ability works.
What we are thinking currently for the Sentry is what if Hallucination didn't require an upgrade?
This might be good because:
1. Scouting is more important in HotS due to the added new threats.
2. Protoss has a lot of trouble vs. early Widow Mines. (Hallucinations can be a soft counter until detection is ready)
3. Players who aren't able to utilize Force Fields well will be able to use the more expensive Hallucinations to combo with their army.
Please remember all this isn't final decisions, but we're just trying to be as open about our thoughts as possible. Thanks~" That's really not bad, I'd actually welcome that as a change, personally. Protoss scouting is pretty far behind zerg/terran in WoL anyways.
Yeah although what Browder said really sounds nothing like that.
Maybe David Kim just realized what Browder was saying was really freakin stupid so he wrote that. And yeah I think the hallucination idea is not bad.
If cannons needed a nerf why do we almost never see cannon rushes in GSL, just learn how to defend cannon rushes, Protoss players need to do that too (PvP..)
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On October 18 2012 17:29 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 15:02 sunprince wrote:On September 25 2012 10:11 Acritter wrote:
I think Fungal is not imbalanced, as is clearly shown by Zerg not dominating Protoss to a ridiculous (10%+) extent on a competitive level. Fungal is just poorly designed. Unfortunately, it's a large part of the Zerg race, and can't easily be fixed. I suppose the big question with it is: what is it that Zerg players REQUIRE from Fungal, and what parts can be removed/deferred until a later caster unit? For example, would it be possible to give the Infestor Ensnare, and then reintroduce the Defiler with Plague to give Zerg a stronger lategame presence to make up for the lower midgame? NOTE: this is not the solution I am proposing. It's just the style of solution I'm proposing.
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that a single massable caster that's good against anything is good for the game or good for Zerg as a race. Hell, the Science Vessel only squeezed through because it was so tough to build and so gas-intensive. What it means for Zerg is that they really only have one option. They don't get to say, "Oh, I think I'd be better off if I got this caster or that caster", because there's only one caster that will ever be relevant. Vipers are what I think a Zerg caster should look like, and the Infestor doesn't quite fit into that. Simply change fungal to a slow instead of a snare. On October 02 2012 05:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On October 02 2012 04:56 ThatSweatyNerd wrote:
Problem: cannon rushes are all too good if you know how to do them
Solution: make cannons cost 25 gas to delay cannon timings.
Side effects: No early defenses for Protoss other than a zealot/stalker.
I think this MAY be a good idea, but please prove me wrong. I'm only gold XD This destroys PvZ entirely. When talking about protoss balance, always - ALWAYS - consider how bad gateway units are early game. Gateway units aren't bad early game. While Terran infantry are certainly stronger, Zerg units are even worse and only beat gateway because of overwhelming production. Nerfing marines and spawn larvae would make gateway units pretty decent. As for the photon cannons themselves, they just need their health (but not shields) reduced from 150 to 100, armor reduced from 1 to 0, and cooldown increased from 1.25 to 1.5. In other words, nerf cannons into oblivion.... why do cannons need a nerf whatsoever again?
You must have failed to read the quoted replies. And cannons were just fine with those stats in BW, when they were up against the same workers (with identical stats) rallied to defend against them. Cannons got stronger, but workers didn't, which is why cannon rushes are so much stronger now despite improved worker AI.
On October 18 2012 19:11 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 10:44 Chylith wrote:On October 11 2012 06:54 hitpoint wrote:"We are talking about ways to make the Sentry easier to use so more Protoss players can get value out of him." - Dustin Browder posted this http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794032960?page=2#23. People have been saying for years that protoss gateway units are so weak because of how powerful force field is. I'm scared guys. I nearly had a heartattack when I saw that(and I'm a Protoss player) until I read the thread, David Kim clarifies(in spoilers): + Show Spoiler +"Just to clarify, we don't mean we're changing Force Fields in any way. We love how the ability works.
What we are thinking currently for the Sentry is what if Hallucination didn't require an upgrade?
This might be good because:
1. Scouting is more important in HotS due to the added new threats.
2. Protoss has a lot of trouble vs. early Widow Mines. (Hallucinations can be a soft counter until detection is ready)
3. Players who aren't able to utilize Force Fields well will be able to use the more expensive Hallucinations to combo with their army.
Please remember all this isn't final decisions, but we're just trying to be as open about our thoughts as possible. Thanks~" That's really not bad, I'd actually welcome that as a change, personally. Protoss scouting is pretty far behind zerg/terran in WoL anyways. Yeah although what Browder said really sounds nothing like that. Maybe David Kim just realized what Browder was saying was really freakin stupid so he wrote that. And yeah I think the hallucination idea is not bad. If cannons needed a nerf why do we almost never see cannon rushes in GSL, just learn how to defend cannon rushes, Protoss players need to do that too (PvP..)
We don't see many cannon rushes in GSL because the maps were purposely designed to make cannon rushes less effective.
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On October 18 2012 20:24 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 17:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 11 2012 15:02 sunprince wrote:On September 25 2012 10:11 Acritter wrote:
I think Fungal is not imbalanced, as is clearly shown by Zerg not dominating Protoss to a ridiculous (10%+) extent on a competitive level. Fungal is just poorly designed. Unfortunately, it's a large part of the Zerg race, and can't easily be fixed. I suppose the big question with it is: what is it that Zerg players REQUIRE from Fungal, and what parts can be removed/deferred until a later caster unit? For example, would it be possible to give the Infestor Ensnare, and then reintroduce the Defiler with Plague to give Zerg a stronger lategame presence to make up for the lower midgame? NOTE: this is not the solution I am proposing. It's just the style of solution I'm proposing.
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that a single massable caster that's good against anything is good for the game or good for Zerg as a race. Hell, the Science Vessel only squeezed through because it was so tough to build and so gas-intensive. What it means for Zerg is that they really only have one option. They don't get to say, "Oh, I think I'd be better off if I got this caster or that caster", because there's only one caster that will ever be relevant. Vipers are what I think a Zerg caster should look like, and the Infestor doesn't quite fit into that. Simply change fungal to a slow instead of a snare. On October 02 2012 05:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On October 02 2012 04:56 ThatSweatyNerd wrote:
Problem: cannon rushes are all too good if you know how to do them
Solution: make cannons cost 25 gas to delay cannon timings.
Side effects: No early defenses for Protoss other than a zealot/stalker.
I think this MAY be a good idea, but please prove me wrong. I'm only gold XD This destroys PvZ entirely. When talking about protoss balance, always - ALWAYS - consider how bad gateway units are early game. Gateway units aren't bad early game. While Terran infantry are certainly stronger, Zerg units are even worse and only beat gateway because of overwhelming production. Nerfing marines and spawn larvae would make gateway units pretty decent. As for the photon cannons themselves, they just need their health (but not shields) reduced from 150 to 100, armor reduced from 1 to 0, and cooldown increased from 1.25 to 1.5. In other words, nerf cannons into oblivion.... why do cannons need a nerf whatsoever again? You must have failed to read the quoted replies. And cannons were just fine with those stats in BW, when they were up against the same workers (with identical stats) rallied to defend against them. Cannons got stronger, but workers didn't, which is why cannon rushes are so much stronger now despite improved worker AI. Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 19:11 7mk wrote:On October 11 2012 10:44 Chylith wrote:On October 11 2012 06:54 hitpoint wrote:"We are talking about ways to make the Sentry easier to use so more Protoss players can get value out of him." - Dustin Browder posted this http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794032960?page=2#23. People have been saying for years that protoss gateway units are so weak because of how powerful force field is. I'm scared guys. I nearly had a heartattack when I saw that(and I'm a Protoss player) until I read the thread, David Kim clarifies(in spoilers): + Show Spoiler +"Just to clarify, we don't mean we're changing Force Fields in any way. We love how the ability works.
What we are thinking currently for the Sentry is what if Hallucination didn't require an upgrade?
This might be good because:
1. Scouting is more important in HotS due to the added new threats.
2. Protoss has a lot of trouble vs. early Widow Mines. (Hallucinations can be a soft counter until detection is ready)
3. Players who aren't able to utilize Force Fields well will be able to use the more expensive Hallucinations to combo with their army.
Please remember all this isn't final decisions, but we're just trying to be as open about our thoughts as possible. Thanks~" That's really not bad, I'd actually welcome that as a change, personally. Protoss scouting is pretty far behind zerg/terran in WoL anyways. Yeah although what Browder said really sounds nothing like that. Maybe David Kim just realized what Browder was saying was really freakin stupid so he wrote that. And yeah I think the hallucination idea is not bad. If cannons needed a nerf why do we almost never see cannon rushes in GSL, just learn how to defend cannon rushes, Protoss players need to do that too (PvP..) We don't see many cannon rushes in GSL because the maps were purposely designed to make cannon rushes less effective.
Your analysis is irrelevant concerning cannons. Cannon rushes are stronger, ok. They still suck, generally speaking. It doesn't matter if they are stronger if they're still bad. There is no balance issue with cannon rushes being too strong, and nerfing them would dramatically affect balance, specifically pvz, in a very negative, negative way. The entire reason their HP was buffed was the potency of roach/ling allins.
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On October 19 2012 02:55 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 20:24 sunprince wrote:On October 18 2012 17:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 11 2012 15:02 sunprince wrote:On September 25 2012 10:11 Acritter wrote:
I think Fungal is not imbalanced, as is clearly shown by Zerg not dominating Protoss to a ridiculous (10%+) extent on a competitive level. Fungal is just poorly designed. Unfortunately, it's a large part of the Zerg race, and can't easily be fixed. I suppose the big question with it is: what is it that Zerg players REQUIRE from Fungal, and what parts can be removed/deferred until a later caster unit? For example, would it be possible to give the Infestor Ensnare, and then reintroduce the Defiler with Plague to give Zerg a stronger lategame presence to make up for the lower midgame? NOTE: this is not the solution I am proposing. It's just the style of solution I'm proposing.
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that a single massable caster that's good against anything is good for the game or good for Zerg as a race. Hell, the Science Vessel only squeezed through because it was so tough to build and so gas-intensive. What it means for Zerg is that they really only have one option. They don't get to say, "Oh, I think I'd be better off if I got this caster or that caster", because there's only one caster that will ever be relevant. Vipers are what I think a Zerg caster should look like, and the Infestor doesn't quite fit into that. Simply change fungal to a slow instead of a snare. On October 02 2012 05:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On October 02 2012 04:56 ThatSweatyNerd wrote:
Problem: cannon rushes are all too good if you know how to do them
Solution: make cannons cost 25 gas to delay cannon timings.
Side effects: No early defenses for Protoss other than a zealot/stalker.
I think this MAY be a good idea, but please prove me wrong. I'm only gold XD This destroys PvZ entirely. When talking about protoss balance, always - ALWAYS - consider how bad gateway units are early game. Gateway units aren't bad early game. While Terran infantry are certainly stronger, Zerg units are even worse and only beat gateway because of overwhelming production. Nerfing marines and spawn larvae would make gateway units pretty decent. As for the photon cannons themselves, they just need their health (but not shields) reduced from 150 to 100, armor reduced from 1 to 0, and cooldown increased from 1.25 to 1.5. In other words, nerf cannons into oblivion.... why do cannons need a nerf whatsoever again? You must have failed to read the quoted replies. And cannons were just fine with those stats in BW, when they were up against the same workers (with identical stats) rallied to defend against them. Cannons got stronger, but workers didn't, which is why cannon rushes are so much stronger now despite improved worker AI. On October 18 2012 19:11 7mk wrote:On October 11 2012 10:44 Chylith wrote:On October 11 2012 06:54 hitpoint wrote:"We are talking about ways to make the Sentry easier to use so more Protoss players can get value out of him." - Dustin Browder posted this http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794032960?page=2#23. People have been saying for years that protoss gateway units are so weak because of how powerful force field is. I'm scared guys. I nearly had a heartattack when I saw that(and I'm a Protoss player) until I read the thread, David Kim clarifies(in spoilers): + Show Spoiler +"Just to clarify, we don't mean we're changing Force Fields in any way. We love how the ability works.
What we are thinking currently for the Sentry is what if Hallucination didn't require an upgrade?
This might be good because:
1. Scouting is more important in HotS due to the added new threats.
2. Protoss has a lot of trouble vs. early Widow Mines. (Hallucinations can be a soft counter until detection is ready)
3. Players who aren't able to utilize Force Fields well will be able to use the more expensive Hallucinations to combo with their army.
Please remember all this isn't final decisions, but we're just trying to be as open about our thoughts as possible. Thanks~" That's really not bad, I'd actually welcome that as a change, personally. Protoss scouting is pretty far behind zerg/terran in WoL anyways. Yeah although what Browder said really sounds nothing like that. Maybe David Kim just realized what Browder was saying was really freakin stupid so he wrote that. And yeah I think the hallucination idea is not bad. If cannons needed a nerf why do we almost never see cannon rushes in GSL, just learn how to defend cannon rushes, Protoss players need to do that too (PvP..) We don't see many cannon rushes in GSL because the maps were purposely designed to make cannon rushes less effective. Your analysis is irrelevant concerning cannons. Cannon rushes are stronger, ok. They still suck, generally speaking. It doesn't matter if they are stronger if they're still bad. There is no balance issue with cannon rushes being too strong, and nerfing them would dramatically affect balance, specifically pvz, in a very negative, negative way.
They suck on certain maps. They're brutal on maps with favorable ramps and natural mineral placement. There's a reason why ramps were changed to nerf pylon/cannon walls, and why GSL maps are designed with cannon rushes in mind. If mapmapkers have to build around cannon rushes, this suggests there's a problem with them that's only being managed by the map pool.
On October 19 2012 02:55 FabledIntegral wrote:
The entire reason their HP was buffed was the potency of roach/ling allins.
The problem there was with Spawn Larvae, not cannons.
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On October 18 2012 17:58 lost_artz wrote:
Complaint
Problem: Mass Orbitals (5+)/Mules
Solution: Limit Orbitals to 5/require 1 supply per Mule
Side Effects: As I see it the only side effect would be players having to manage their Macro more effectively. There's also a small potential of lessening the amount of damage some [terran] all-ins can do.
I've wanted to post this for a quiet a while now and be very clear that Mass Mules and Orbitals is something that annoys me not only from a spectator POV but also from when I play.
The way I see it Mass Orbitals (over 5) and Mass Mules in the lategame are simply to strong. Orbitals serve 2 purposes besides being a CC, Scans and Mules. Neither are available via PFs and both are the best at what they are used for; Detection, Map Awareness, and Mining. An unfortunate side effect of Mass Orbitals is the ability for Terrans to throw away SCVs to free up supply thus making their armies much larger than what other races can achieve. Zerg are capable of doing something similar in the fashion of mass building then canceling but they still can't match the results of Terrans. On the other hand Protoss are completely screwed in this regard as there's no way for them to add extra units without sacrificing economy altogether.
I do not mind the concept of Mules at all, however I find it extremely annoying when players are capable of calling them down constantly due to stupidly high amounts of Orbitals. No other race is capable of mining at such high efficiency with low amounts of workers. Sure there's larva injects and Chronoboosts to balance out the early game but in the lategame they fall way short of Mules which are also free and have no supply cost.
I just find it completely wrong that Mass Orbitals can have such a drastic impact on the lategame especially if a Terran player has lost all his workers from harassment. It's almost like a Get of a Jail free card that can be used infinitely and that bothers me and I don't find it balanced at all in the lategame.
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To sum things up I would love to see a limit of Orbitals to 5 and or a 1 supply cost for Mules which would make Terran players have to think more carefully about how they use Mules rather than being able to call down 15 at once. 15 Mules only = 3 Orbitals with full energy. How often do you see games with 5+? Pretty often, especially if the Terran is ahead in all aspects.
And why not force the zerg to use a limit amont of larva for drones and not for army?
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On October 19 2012 08:01 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 02:55 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 18 2012 20:24 sunprince wrote:On October 18 2012 17:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 11 2012 15:02 sunprince wrote:On September 25 2012 10:11 Acritter wrote:
I think Fungal is not imbalanced, as is clearly shown by Zerg not dominating Protoss to a ridiculous (10%+) extent on a competitive level. Fungal is just poorly designed. Unfortunately, it's a large part of the Zerg race, and can't easily be fixed. I suppose the big question with it is: what is it that Zerg players REQUIRE from Fungal, and what parts can be removed/deferred until a later caster unit? For example, would it be possible to give the Infestor Ensnare, and then reintroduce the Defiler with Plague to give Zerg a stronger lategame presence to make up for the lower midgame? NOTE: this is not the solution I am proposing. It's just the style of solution I'm proposing.
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that a single massable caster that's good against anything is good for the game or good for Zerg as a race. Hell, the Science Vessel only squeezed through because it was so tough to build and so gas-intensive. What it means for Zerg is that they really only have one option. They don't get to say, "Oh, I think I'd be better off if I got this caster or that caster", because there's only one caster that will ever be relevant. Vipers are what I think a Zerg caster should look like, and the Infestor doesn't quite fit into that. Simply change fungal to a slow instead of a snare. On October 02 2012 05:04 DarkLordOlli wrote:On October 02 2012 04:56 ThatSweatyNerd wrote:
Problem: cannon rushes are all too good if you know how to do them
Solution: make cannons cost 25 gas to delay cannon timings.
Side effects: No early defenses for Protoss other than a zealot/stalker.
I think this MAY be a good idea, but please prove me wrong. I'm only gold XD This destroys PvZ entirely. When talking about protoss balance, always - ALWAYS - consider how bad gateway units are early game. Gateway units aren't bad early game. While Terran infantry are certainly stronger, Zerg units are even worse and only beat gateway because of overwhelming production. Nerfing marines and spawn larvae would make gateway units pretty decent. As for the photon cannons themselves, they just need their health (but not shields) reduced from 150 to 100, armor reduced from 1 to 0, and cooldown increased from 1.25 to 1.5. In other words, nerf cannons into oblivion.... why do cannons need a nerf whatsoever again? You must have failed to read the quoted replies. And cannons were just fine with those stats in BW, when they were up against the same workers (with identical stats) rallied to defend against them. Cannons got stronger, but workers didn't, which is why cannon rushes are so much stronger now despite improved worker AI. On October 18 2012 19:11 7mk wrote:On October 11 2012 10:44 Chylith wrote:On October 11 2012 06:54 hitpoint wrote:"We are talking about ways to make the Sentry easier to use so more Protoss players can get value out of him." - Dustin Browder posted this http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794032960?page=2#23. People have been saying for years that protoss gateway units are so weak because of how powerful force field is. I'm scared guys. I nearly had a heartattack when I saw that(and I'm a Protoss player) until I read the thread, David Kim clarifies(in spoilers): + Show Spoiler +"Just to clarify, we don't mean we're changing Force Fields in any way. We love how the ability works.
What we are thinking currently for the Sentry is what if Hallucination didn't require an upgrade?
This might be good because:
1. Scouting is more important in HotS due to the added new threats.
2. Protoss has a lot of trouble vs. early Widow Mines. (Hallucinations can be a soft counter until detection is ready)
3. Players who aren't able to utilize Force Fields well will be able to use the more expensive Hallucinations to combo with their army.
Please remember all this isn't final decisions, but we're just trying to be as open about our thoughts as possible. Thanks~" That's really not bad, I'd actually welcome that as a change, personally. Protoss scouting is pretty far behind zerg/terran in WoL anyways. Yeah although what Browder said really sounds nothing like that. Maybe David Kim just realized what Browder was saying was really freakin stupid so he wrote that. And yeah I think the hallucination idea is not bad. If cannons needed a nerf why do we almost never see cannon rushes in GSL, just learn how to defend cannon rushes, Protoss players need to do that too (PvP..) We don't see many cannon rushes in GSL because the maps were purposely designed to make cannon rushes less effective. Your analysis is irrelevant concerning cannons. Cannon rushes are stronger, ok. They still suck, generally speaking. It doesn't matter if they are stronger if they're still bad. There is no balance issue with cannon rushes being too strong, and nerfing them would dramatically affect balance, specifically pvz, in a very negative, negative way. They suck on certain maps. They're brutal on maps with favorable ramps and natural mineral placement. There's a reason why ramps were changed to nerf pylon/cannon walls, and why GSL maps are designed with cannon rushes in mind. If mapmapkers have to build around cannon rushes, this suggests there's a problem with them that's only being managed by the map pool. Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 02:55 FabledIntegral wrote:
The entire reason their HP was buffed was the potency of roach/ling allins. The problem there was with Spawn Larvae, not cannons.
That's an issue with pylon wallins, NOT intrinsically due to cannons. You're suggestions for weakening cannons would not alleviate the issue of pylon wallins followed by a cannon.
And what maps do they suck to play vs against on in PvT or PvZ exactly? How exactly is this even map dependent?
On October 19 2012 08:01 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 02:55 FabledIntegral wrote:
The entire reason their HP was buffed was the potency of roach/ling allins. The problem there was with Spawn Larvae, not cannons.
Irrelevant of what the problem was, that's the solution they came up with. Reverting such a decision would only be detrimental to balance unless you could find a solution to you're supposed actual root problem of spawn larvae. And that has far more balance repercussions.
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Problem:
Infestors are completely overpowered. They are a counter everything unit and can perform well in any situation and have no weaknesses. Units that "counter" them (e.g. ghosts) are not really hard counters anyways (e.g. they can get fungaled) and are ghosts are not useful in any other situation - making them a 200/100 unit with such a narrow purpose.
In addition, infestors make BL/corrupter insansely overpowered - the one terran solution to them (i.e. vikings) is completely shut down by a fungal. In the end, the endgame of TvZ becomes dodging that one money fungal whilst zerg have many get out of jail cards - for instance, if their army is out of position, infestors can stall by fungals, etc. Actually, there is no terran counter to infestor/BL/corrupter - the terran can only hope for the zerg to mess up.
Another side effect is that infestors become completely overpowered in ZvZ - see Roro vs DRG in GSL Season 4, Code A ro24 where the game became dominated by infestors.
Solution:
Fungals should not hit air units. This will allow air units (e.g. banshees) to counter them. This will also make mutas usable in ZvZ. With the queen buff, zergs already have many options in fighting mutas anyways. Also, in the PvZ matchup, the game won't revolve around the "get that money vortex off" since protoss can make air units to counter the infestors.
Interestingly, blizzard foresaw this problem, and initially wanted to remove the infestor ability to affect air units in a previous patch (1.4 I think?). But zerg qq forced them to revert the change. I don't think any zerg can seriously qq anymore.
Side effects:
None - or maybe there will be more zerg qq'ing. I guess maybe mutas could possibly become too powerful in ZvZ but it's a mirror matchup so it's fine.
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On October 18 2012 17:58 lost_artz wrote:
Complaint
Problem: Mass Orbitals (5+)/Mules
Solution: Limit Orbitals to 5/require 1 supply per Mule
Side Effects: As I see it the only side effect would be players having to manage their Macro more effectively. There's also a small potential of lessening the amount of damage some [terran] all-ins can do.
You can basically say the same thing about Zerg as well ... lategame Zerg have "unlimited" larvae due to lots of hatcheries with attached Queens. The only race which has a not-so-well-scaling spell attached to its CC is Protoss, because you can either chronoboost your Warp Gates OR just build several more of them to the same effect, so the only thing you need Chronoboost for in the late game really is a tech switch to air or some crucial Robo units.
Terrans basically REQUIRE the MULE, because they have to take a worker offline to build anything and the MULE just replaces that with some burst economy. Sure this applies more to the start of the game than the late game, but Terrans already need to build many more buildings than the other races already, so they deserve an advantage on another front to make up for that.
The energy required for MULEs can also be used / required for something else and the solution to "letting a Terran have loads of MULEs" could be learning to force him to scan. Cloaked units and attacks on many fronts are the way to go then IMO.
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EPT
