EPTAnd to people asking for the removal of the Colossus or a nerf you clearly don't play the game at an even remotely acceptable level, if either of these were to be implemented Protoss would not ever even be able to touch a Terran bio ball in the late game. As of right now the state of late game TvP really just hinges on whoever attacks into the defender, as it turns out attacking into storms is bad and vice versa when attacking into EMP, this is just bad design not imbalance. I think the main issue Terran are having is the fact that they get a deficit early on in the game being overly eager and agressive with drops and as a result they go into the late game crippled.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 373
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Astro-Penguin
554 Posts
And to people asking for the removal of the Colossus or a nerf you clearly don't play the game at an even remotely acceptable level, if either of these were to be implemented Protoss would not ever even be able to touch a Terran bio ball in the late game. As of right now the state of late game TvP really just hinges on whoever attacks into the defender, as it turns out attacking into storms is bad and vice versa when attacking into EMP, this is just bad design not imbalance. I think the main issue Terran are having is the fact that they get a deficit early on in the game being overly eager and agressive with drops and as a result they go into the late game crippled. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On November 05 2012 12:34 Filter wrote: If Colossus are in the picture you actually can't show that engagement, it doesn't exist. The problem is a lot of things frustrate the players ie. you, me and the pros because they is no response available at all for you to defend against some things in the game. Terran doesn't have a response to a mass Protoss late game warp in, it's not a gradual loss you just get smashed and it's frustrating as hell. The same thing applies to Toss players when they get steamrolled by marines, if your higher tech units are taken out there is nothing you can do but get absolutely rolled by 40 marines with stim. The same thing applies with infestor broodlord, you do everything you can to stop it but at some point a fungal lands and you may as well take your hands off the keyboard. There is no response left, it's over. The less control you have over something the more frustrating it tends to become. Mistakes should be punished, but at the same time you should feel like your opponent did something good to punish your mistake. Having your entire army mowed down because you couldn't snipe off 10 ht AND emp the Archons AND control your vikings perfectly is very frustrating. At what point did the protoss player do anything in that particular battle to outplay or outthink you? the simple answer is he didn't, he landed 1-2 storms and a-moved his army. The loss of control in those situations is why Terran players bitch so much about lategame TvP, and why many of us simply don't play that much. When a Zerg gets crushed by an immortal all in it's the same story, the Protoss player might have hit all his timings perfectly but the Zerg is totally helpless and relies on the Toss player making a mistake. Same thing with lategame PvZ, trying to get your mothership into position only to have your opponent spreading his stuff out properly means you're screwed and the game is completely out of your control, again frustrating. Removing and balancing things that are extremely frustrating is very important, it really doesn't matter if the matchup is overall very balanced if certain situations make you want to alt-f4 your game and play something else. Terran Orbital Economy lategame is quite possibly the strongest lategame, except possibly Infestor/Broodlord, simply because the Terran's army size can be 40-50 greater than the opponent. The issue has always been for Terran to reach that lategame. It's comparable to how the Protoss midgame is much weaker than the Terran midgame, and the challenge for the Protoss player is to get to the lategame without the Terran winning. There are already Terran players experimenting with this style: Kas, for example. I think it would be much wiser to wait and see how the professionals manage to play this out. Right now, the win rates are stable, so it's not like Terran is under some massive threat like Protoss was during sAviOr's reign. Any advantage that Protoss has before 10 minutes and after 16 minutes is clearly mitigated by the Terran advantage between those two milestones. All in all? No concerns about the matchup. Just want to let it play out. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On November 05 2012 14:15 Acritter wrote: Terran Orbital Economy lategame is quite possibly the strongest lategame, except possibly Infestor/Broodlord, simply because the Terran's army size can be 40-50 greater than the opponent. The issue has always been for Terran to reach that lategame. It's comparable to how the Protoss midgame is much weaker than the Terran midgame, and the challenge for the Protoss player is to get to the lategame without the Terran winning. There are already Terran players experimenting with this style: Kas, for example. I think it would be much wiser to wait and see how the professionals manage to play this out. Right now, the win rates are stable, so it's not like Terran is under some massive threat like Protoss was during sAviOr's reign. Any advantage that Protoss has before 10 minutes and after 16 minutes is clearly mitigated by the Terran advantage between those two milestones. All in all? No concerns about the matchup. Just want to let it play out. Please link to win rates. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On November 05 2012 13:06 bokeevboke wrote: what micro has to do with them being op? He said to buff other parts of the other races in order to give them more even ground. Marines are already extremely squishy and are only 'op' in the hands of a player with good control, but they actually lose vs most other similar tech units without micro and/or medivacs. This is especially exaggerated for Protoss, who's gateway units had to be balanced for Warp Gate, making pure marine crush Protoss gateway armies. Personally I agree Marines need a slight, preferably indirect nerf (+5s build time or reduce the strength of medivacs), but I feel like it should come with a buff to Siege Tanks, which are currently more or less a joke until you hit a critical mass (6+). | ||
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geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
On November 05 2012 13:06 bokeevboke wrote: what micro has to do with them being op? You haven't heard of banelings have you? | ||
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Pinna
Finland152 Posts
On November 05 2012 14:46 geokilla wrote: You haven't heard of banelings have you? And thats the problem in marines, they can DESTROY banelings in microed well. Banelings are supposed to be the hard counter to marines, why can marines beat them? At the moment, Zerg has only one viable counter to the mass marine, and thats infestor. Nerf infestors, and zergs winrates will drop again, to under 50% | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On November 05 2012 14:03 Astro-Penguin wrote: Honestly right now the biggest issue with late game PvZ imo is the combination of Infested Terran, Spines, and Broodlings, Notice the similarities? Each one of these units is 0 supply and they benefit from upgrades creating an insanely deadly vanguard for the Infestors/Broodlords, not only that but they also have a crazy high dps output. It's pretty silly that a zerg can go up to 100 drones after he knows hes not going to be attacked than just later convert them into spines. If we are going into static defenses, lets keep it to the fact that they can move. Spines, like turrets, cannons, and bunkers are structure, the implication you seem to be making that they should cost some kind of supply is pretty out there, | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
Terran is struggling against zerg not because zerg is too strong but because the terran is allowed to make less mistakes without just flat out dying as a result. The fact of the matter is that if you look at any mlg game, any gsl game you will find that very often a terran will do ridiculous damage to a zerg early game. Just in this mlg there were numerous examples of massive drone kills to hellions or zergs donating infestors with bad rallies however the zergs still got back just fine to the late game. The game feels way more volatile for terran because there are so many small things that can just instantly end the game for you. Raising your depot wall one second too late, stepping on a baneling land mine, getting your shit fungaled at the worst possible time. The argument is not that terrans should not blame themselves when they get all vikings caught in one fungal because if you do that you clearly made a mistake. But in a lategame situation where a terran accidentally gets all vikings fungaled while they move together during a repositioning there is no equalent mistake that zerg can make that just ends the game. I feel like not only are there a lot more things that the terran can fuck up late game, fucking up most of those things, many things which can be split second decisions will just end the game instantly, even if you were ahead. Is it really reasonable that if you did not scan at a specific pixel and ended up walking 20 marines over a baneling mine that the game should be over because of that one mistake? I am fine with that if there are similar situations for zerg. Right now I don't see that. I have some ideas of what I would love to see blizzard try at least on PTR but I doubt it will happen. Change the attack ai to put broodlings at the bottom of the attack priority so that thors and stalkers don't all fire at the broodlings unless you control target non-stop. DIsallow transfusion on massive units, or put a cooldown or something so that you can't chain transfuse the same unit over and over. Or change transfuse to be a healing over time that is applied rather than an instant heal. It would still heal the same amount but you can't outheal massive damage. Don't make fungal stun units. I know this is unlikely to happen because of how much the game is now based on this spell but from an rts point of view I HATE how fungal growth works. It is a terrible design for a spell in a skill based game because as soon as a fungal hits, all skill is taken out. When a fungal has hit, there is no difference between flash and a bronze player, they can both do exactly as much with their units. It is also the reason why fungal punishes mistakes so extremely hard. In almost any situation a fungal growth is an instakill because there is no way those units will survive. I really wish they would redesign the spell completely somehow. | ||
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KingAce
United States471 Posts
Fixing infestors requires the removal of the ability to stop movement from fungal growth. Or give it a longer startup, instead of making it insta cast. Currently this ability shuts down pretty much all air tech of every race, that's a bit absurd IMO. And one thing no one talks about balance wise is unit clumping. Probably one the biggest reasons we have so many AOE problems in this game. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Why must mauraders have so much extra vs armored? Same for immortals. Yes, we need spesilized units but if we just tweak the numbers a little instead of giving a unit dubble damage vs something spesific we get a more well rounded game. The only real hard-counter should be air vs things that can't shoot up.... | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On November 05 2012 14:51 Pinna wrote: And thats the problem in marines, they can DESTROY banelings in microed well. Banelings are supposed to be the hard counter to marines, why can marines beat them? At the moment, Zerg has only one viable counter to the mass marine, and thats infestor. Nerf infestors, and zergs winrates will drop again, to under 50% "If microed well" why do you want to nerf something that make this game amazing? Marine vs baneling micro is one of the most exciting thing in this game and raises the skill cap. It forces the terran to split his marine efficiently and the zerg to split his baneling efficiently. It such an amazing part of the game. Nerfing investor wont break the game, of course blizzard shouldnt nerf them to oblivion. The nerf should be very subtle but enough that would change how it work. So it okay for zerg to make 40 infestors but not okay for terran to make 40 ghost? I do not see the logic in that. | ||
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GoldforGolden
China102 Posts
On November 05 2012 14:59 KingAce wrote: Units that create Armies are such a terrible design concept IMO. Infested Marines+Broodlords+fungal growth...this combo issues that when 200/200 armies collide zerg has technically a 50+ food army. Fixing infestors requires the removal of the ability to stop movement from fungal growth. Or give it a longer startup, instead of making it insta cast. Currently this ability shuts down pretty much all air tech of every race, that's a bit absurd IMO. And one thing no one talks about balance wise is unit clumping. Probably one the biggest reasons we have so many AOE problems in this game. lots of people have talked about unit clumping problem already in some other thread or this one (unit movement change). The thing is the GOOD players don't clump up their units, they always spread their units while the bad players don't. Similarly, asking infestors to not have the ability to stop movement was discussed before, it will completely shut down infestors style in ZvZ. The problem with zerg is that the bl infestor is the only cost efficient deathball, nothing else come close to it. Zerg also needs a huge amount of drones and gas to support this production and so we have lots of zerg going up to 100 drones then put lots of them as spines and keeps making the ball bigger. Once the ball is gone, zerg has no time to remax into any cost efficient ball because time don't allow them to remax into something good, and has to rely on spines, left over units and usually remaxed lings/roaches to stablise. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 05 2012 14:03 Astro-Penguin wrote: Honestly right now the biggest issue with late game PvZ imo is the combination of Infested Terran, Spines, and Broodlings, Notice the similarities? Each one of these units is 0 supply and they benefit from upgrades creating an insanely deadly vanguard for the Infestors/Broodlords, not only that but they also have a crazy high dps output. It's pretty silly that a zerg can go up to 100 drones after he knows hes not going to be attacked than just later convert them into spines. And to people asking for the removal of the Colossus or a nerf you clearly don't play the game at an even remotely acceptable level, if either of these were to be implemented Protoss would not ever even be able to touch a Terran bio ball in the late game. As of right now the state of late game TvP really just hinges on whoever attacks into the defender, as it turns out attacking into storms is bad and vice versa when attacking into EMP, this is just bad design not imbalance. I think the main issue Terran are having is the fact that they get a deficit early on in the game being overly eager and agressive with drops and as a result they go into the late game crippled. None of those issues (IT, Spines, BL) are gamebreaking if fungal didn't exist. Infestor/BL isn't a ridiculous combo because of the IT. It's ridiculous because of fungal that prevents units from attacking the BL as well as retreating from the BL. As a result, BL's constantly pummel the enemy from a long range and are not attacked in return. Also, any blink attempt under the BL's, assuming you manage to catch the Zerg unaware (because otherwise they'd just fungal you early and have hte BL's completely wipe the stalkers out), results in the stalkers still getting wiped out eventually due to fungals (although it doesn't mean toss won't come out on top with it being a ridic good trade, it just means those stalkers have to be sacrificed, which is kinda stupid). Fungal is the gamebreaking spell that enables Infestor/BL to work. I'd rather see fungal have a slow (like SO many other people suggest) at some agreed upon number (for example anywhere between 40-70%, pulling it out of my ass, could be anything), while having some additional benefit to compensate for the nerf (although clearly it wouldn't completely counteract it as the point is to reduce its potency). For example, make it so fungal also prevents any spell/ability from being used (kinda like it already does on blink). Effects would be.... (and I'm spoilering this since it's all my personal theorycraft on ways I think the game would be better, and the balance would have to be up to a ton of discussion). + Show Spoiler + Terran: - SCVs can't mine, repair, or make buildings - Marines can't stim - Marauders can't stim and conc no longer applies - Medivacs no longer can heal or unload - Ghosts can't cloak (I usually cloak as soon as fungaled b/c as soon as it wears off, it activates, forcing an immediate chain fungal and making it so you don't have to wait for fungal to wear off to use it), EMP, or Nuke - Siege tanks cannot Siege or Unsiege (could be SUPER powerful, but still better than current imo) - Thors can't strike cannon (OH NOES) - Vikings can't land (although I think this is already accomplished?) - Ravens can't use autoturret, PDD, or seeker AND detection is cancelled - Banshees can't cloak (once again not too significant but I ALWAYS cloak my fungaled shees preemptively and it helps far more than one would imagine) - BC's cannot use Yamato Protoss: - Probes can't mine or make buildings - Zealots can't charge (although at least they can still move unlike the current fungal which renders them almost useless) - Stalkers can't blink (doesn't change :o) - Sentries can't cast Guardian Shield/Force Field - Dark Templar not only lose cloaking but can't morph into an Archon (although I guess they couldn't already) - High Templar can't feedback, storm, or morph into Archon - Observer loses detection ability on top of cloak - Warp Prism can't switch modes, can't unload, (and if desirable, a fungal immediately cancels all warping in units from a Warp Prism!) - Immortal hardened shields deactivated (up to debate...) - Colossi can't walk up/down cliffs (although I don't know if this is doable especially if already on a cliff) - Phoenix can't lift - Void rays decharge to first phase - Carriers can't remake interceptors (and maybe even can't launch if not already out? Although who wants to nerf them really....) - Mothership can't cast vortex or recall Zerg: (Well this part is kinda unnecessary but why not) - Drones can't mine or morph into buildings - No unit can burrow, although it's already like this - If eggs are burrowed, perhaps their build time stops counting for 4 seconds? :o - Stops zergling --> baneling timer from continuing during morph, detonated banelings lose their bonus dmg vs buildings - Queens can't lay tumors, inject, or transfuse - Overseers lose detection ability, overlords can no longer load/unload nor drop creep - Roaches don't heal when burrowed, still can't unburrow (which would actually increase fungals potency) - Hydra extra speed bonus diminished on creep, only moves as fast as the normal speed bonus gives Zerg units, and then movement speed is reduced based on that number (although possibly a totally unnecessary change) - Muta glave shot no longer bounces - Corrupters can't corrupt - Other infestors can't cast infested Terrans, fungal, or NP (although this might cause the game to revolve around who can get a fungal on other infestors which might be dumb....) - Corrupters can't morph into BL's, those midmorphing have their timer delayed - BL reload is effectively delayed as the additional broodling fails to spawn to be thrown at the enemy, although it can attack with any already pregenerated broodlings - Technically I guess it should negate ultras frenzied ability, although I'm not sure how that would work since frenzy is supposed to make it immune from snares.... well it would cancel burrow charge in HOTS! Sounds like the ability might be even more OP, but I'd argue it's less because it has no effect really on many of the units if you use your own units abilities prior to the engagement (siege up, stim marines before getting fungaled, lay down forcefields, etc.), and remember at the same time it would only be a slow not a snare. It could still have absolutely DEVASTATING effects, but in a way so utterly fucking different than it's current variation of "your units will do absolutely nothing and just be chain fungaled to death from a distance." It would def be rough adjusting to the change though, depending on how useful and potent the ability actually is (does the unbeatable, although almost always unattainable, raven/bc as an endgame composition completely get buttfucked since ravens have such a short range with it's abilities and Terran needs yamato vs corrupters?). Other suggestions I've enjoyed were having it be a slow instead of a snare and also cause a RoF reduction. On November 05 2012 15:10 GoldforGolden wrote: lots of people have talked about unit clumping problem already in some other thread or this one (unit movement change). The thing is the GOOD players don't clump up their units, they always spread their units while the bad players don't. Similarly, asking infestors to not have the ability to stop movement was discussed before, it will completely shut down infestors style in ZvZ. The problem with zerg is that the bl infestor is the only cost efficient deathball, nothing else come close to it. Zerg also needs a huge amount of drones and gas to support this production and so we have lots of zerg going up to 100 drones then put lots of them as spines and keeps making the ball bigger. Once the ball is gone, zerg has no time to remax into any cost efficient ball because time don't allow them to remax into something good, and has to rely on spines, left over units and usually remaxed lings/roaches to stablise. Zerg super lategame would be nerfed by a pure fungal nerf, but really that's only a good thing, since it's BAD atm and NEEDS to be changed. It just depends on the degree you change it. For example, if that composition super endgame is only mildly mildly OP (assumption), then would changing fungal from a pure stopping snare to a 90% slow kill the unit composition? No, not really. But it might change from being mildly mildly OP to balancedish. Of course, I need you on board the assumption that as is, the composition is too strong. Regardless, it would lead to Zergs not attempting to do the style of being super fucking passive and teching to infestor/BL behind spines. It would result in Zergs being significantly more aggressive because if they play super fucking passive there's no real gain since the composition they obtain doesn't auto-crush face. Whether or not that aggression is viable is an entirely different matter (such as attempting to slam units like Stephano roach style against the enemy, except at different timings, for example maybe later game trying to slam ultra/ling/bane/infestor against a Protoss's fourth base). However, as it is.... the current playstyle is fucking atrocious with the camping behind mass spine/infestor/BL. I play Zerg just as much as Protoss and Terran, I don't think the reason the majority of Zergs do this is because "it's the only thing that will work ZvP." I think the majority of Zergs do this because it is currently above and beyond the "best" thing to do in ZvP because IF you make it to the lategame, you're essentially unbeatable save getting fucked by vortex. Surviving to it is another thing, but if you do obtain it, you're at a massive advantage. | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
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gengka
Malaysia461 Posts
On November 05 2012 14:59 KingAce wrote: Units that create Armies are such a terrible design concept IMO. Infested Marines+Broodlords+fungal growth...this combo issues that when 200/200 armies collide zerg has technically a 50+ food army. Fixing infestors requires the removal of the ability to stop movement from fungal growth. Or give it a longer startup, instead of making it insta cast. Currently this ability shuts down pretty much all air tech of every race, that's a bit absurd IMO. And one thing no one talks about balance wise is unit clumping. Probably one the biggest reasons we have so many AOE problems in this game. This. Not to mention about hurting and killing our own army when attacking these free armies.. sieged tanks ehemm.... splash damage ehemmm... killed own tanks and marines..... lings run in when unsieged ehemmmm | ||
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gengka
Malaysia461 Posts
Well said well said. i can counter broodlords corruptors composition with vikings and ravens, but i cant because of fungals. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On November 05 2012 15:50 gengka wrote: "None of those issues are game (IT, Spines, BL) are gamebreaking if fungal didn't exist. " Well said well said. i can counter broodlords corruptors composition with vikings and ravens, but i cant because of fungals. Can I ask how you are engaging Zerg that you are having this issue or are you simply referring to drops being shut down? EDIT: Just for clarification, I am simply talking about the spines, otherwise understandable | ||
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GoldforGolden
China102 Posts
On November 05 2012 15:27 FabledIntegral wrote: Zerg super lategame would be nerfed by a pure fungal nerf, but really that's only a good thing, since it's BAD atm and NEEDS to be changed. It just depends on the degree you change it. For example, if that composition super endgame is only mildly mildly OP (assumption), then would changing fungal from a pure stopping snare to a 90% slow kill the unit composition? No, not really. But it might change from being mildly mildly OP to balancedish. Of course, I need you on board the assumption that as is, the composition is too strong. Regardless, it would lead to Zergs not attempting to do the style of being super fucking passive and teching to infestor/BL behind spines. It would result in Zergs being significantly more aggressive because if they play super fucking passive there's no real gain since the composition they obtain doesn't auto-crush face. Whether or not that aggression is viable is an entirely different matter (such as attempting to slam units like Stephano roach style against the enemy, except at different timings, for example maybe later game trying to slam ultra/ling/bane/infestor against a Protoss's fourth base). However, as it is.... the current playstyle is fucking atrocious with the camping behind mass spine/infestor/BL. I play Zerg just as much as Protoss and Terran, I don't think the reason the majority of Zergs do this is because "it's the only thing that will work ZvP." I think the majority of Zergs do this because it is currently above and beyond the "best" thing to do in ZvP because IF you make it to the lategame, you're essentially unbeatable save getting fucked by vortex. Surviving to it is another thing, but if you do obtain it, you're at a massive advantage. I don't actually agree the composition is TOO strong. The composition is TOO strong in the sense that it comes earlier than other race's ultra deathball. PvZ, there was a trend to go for mass air with carriers and void rays on korean ladder and it beats zerg bl infestor deathball EASY, but it was extremely difficult to make this transition. TvZ, ravens and I think you know what I am talking about. The problem right now isn't this unit composition is unstoppable, it is the timing when the broodlords are out, Terran still uses its bio/mech or toss with the ground deathball, just starting to get mothership. There is a reason why Zerg has to be so passive, the only time to drone is early to early mid game, you don't have the time to drone heavily later on. Stephano roach max for example is counting on getting the 60ish drones and just flood roaches until you win/lose. And it doesn't work on all the maps anymore. Going for infestors bl deathball is still the safer option. Zerg had been complaining how hard it is to win a game even if they have completely out-econ the Terran throughout the game (pre infestors era), especially on shakuras. I think idra said this and blizzard basically add in swarm host so that Zerg can actually end the game with lair tech units. The argument was the same as pre infestors era ZvP when the toss deathball seems to be unstoppable because even if you beat it, you would lose to gateway remax. during that time, Zerg complained how toss can just turtle up and get 3 base and move out with a move deathball that kills everything and toss complained it isn't possible to pressure the zerg without having to go all in Zerg can do different paths in mid game, it isn't always only infestor style. But to end the game, hive tech is required for upgrades, and why won't you get bl ball when you have to go T3 anyway I also play 3 races, I ladder my toss along with my main race, zerg at diamond level and just started Terran and reached plat facing diamond players. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On November 05 2012 14:51 Pinna wrote: And thats the problem in marines, they can DESTROY banelings in microed well. Banelings are supposed to be the hard counter to marines, why can marines beat them? At the moment, Zerg has only one viable counter to the mass marine, and thats infestor. Nerf infestors, and zergs winrates will drop again, to under 50% Marines are only good if they can be microed. Fungal hard counters micro. | ||
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