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On July 18 2012 14:46 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 14:35 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 14:29 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:48 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 13:36 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:21 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 12:40 Reborn8u wrote:
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
It's funny how protoss' on this forum still think that hydras are great against gateway-units. It just shows the difference between protoss' who only hang around the balance-whine threads of teamliquid and battenet, making blatant, mindless, horrible points about balance of the game they don't even play above diamond level, and between protoss' who actually spend time playing this game, trying to be better by playing more and better, learning the game, instead of wasting all of their time to whine. Hydras are god-awful against every unit of the terran or protoss, except the sentry. The only unit which hydra wins supply or cost-effektive against the other races is the sentry. Theres a reason why NO ONE ever makes any hydras ever, and thats because they are god-awful against EVERYTHING. The only reason they might hold protoss air-pushes is that it can be mass-produced from the better economy of the Zergs, making it annihiliate the low-econ protoss air all-in. Also, to other matters, why isn't the gateway-expand viable? Because it was tested for the first year? Yeah, seems legit. During the first year of the game, zergs went ROACH-HYDRA against protoss, doing lingbling muta against terran. The game has almost completely changed, but protoss' still think that gateway-expand is god-horrible. There have been points made about the queen not being so imba, but the maps. The greater rush-distance makes terran's and toss' harass run greater ways, and those precious seconds will make the zerg possible to hold the harass easily, with no losses. This also works against roach-ling rushes against the gateway-expand, which gives you way greater ability to harass the zerg with warpgate units, which have almost zero travel-time. The other point made against gateway-expand is that it sets you behind economically. Waitwaitwait, let's just hold it here for a sec. Forge fast expand doesn't? It gives the Zerg absolutely free reign over the map, over his expansions, over his economy, for the first five minutes of the game, to the point that Zerg can get 3 fully saturated bases AND a 200/200 army of roachling at the moment protoss' usually take their third expansion. This ISN'T letting the zerg ahead in economy? Are you protoss' fucking retarded? And then theres Naniwa. Everyone can agree that Naniwa is way inferior player than DRG, but still Naniwa lost a close series against DRG in a recent GSL code S-game. How? Gateway-expand in the other game which he took, DRG made hydras in the second. Co-incidence? Like someone already said, if zerg doesn't dronescout and doesn't know is it FFE or gateway-expand he can't take his 3rd instead of his natural so freely, because if he does so, he gives you a greater ability to all-in him from 1-2 bases because the walkingdistance from his main to his third is so long, and at least you can try to make the zealot/stalker/stalker poke and probably kill the queen and some drones, or atleast force many lings from the zerg, without taking any damage yourself except propably losing the zealot. I just think that protoss' don't make the gateway-expand and try to do the stalker/zealot poke, because it's way, way, way, way easier to just make FFE and blindly sit in your base for the first ten minutes of the game, until moving out with the sentry/immortal all-in, taking freewins against roach-players. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Teambreezy, why did you make a new account, solely for the reason of balance-whine? Whats the problem with your main account? Why don't you want to show us your real internet-face? Drone scout?? pvz? I haven't seen a zerg scout with a drone since the patch. THe new overlords already see everything. Your first lord is sent to the protoss' expo as soon as the game starts so you already know it's a FFE or not. You're second lord will be sent to the third. Have you even watched a game since the patch? You clearly try to show yourself as a person who has watched the game for the whole duration of it's existence, and even more broodwar before that, and still you make just plain retarded one-word answers for every sentence the other speaker makes. Now I understand clearly, why you try to hide behind this second account, because you want to be plain retarded sometimes, while still maintaining the old wiseguy- performance on the first account. Does it grind your gears, being so bad at reading long and thought out- texts, that you just read some random bullshit from between the lines and make then a stupid one sentence-answer for the wall of text? If this thread is for conversation about balance, not mindless whine about the balance, please mods, for the sake of this thread, ban this guy. He creates bad blood and makes just plain stupid and retarded anwsers to everyone who tries to reason with him, making his conversation-partner mad about him and making him maybe even make bad statements, trying to then cast him in a bad light. Also, teambreezy, you need to admit it. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, everyone, they are absolute SHIT at this game compared to the likes of Stephano, MVP, MC. They might have been the emperors of their own races, the emperors of thousand nerds sitting in their basement like you, but now, they are bad. They will get better and maybe even win some starcraft 2-tournaments, but until then, they are absolute garbage. What did i do?? You are trying to ban me because arguing your point and you got nothing to say. I never bashed anyone. Yes. + Show Spoiler +See, I continued the same answer-lenght you did. I am not trying to ban you because you disagree with my opinion, I am trying to get you banned because you disagree with it, and your counter-argument against my point is, that you know who Jaedong is, and that you think that he is better in StarCraft2 than Stephano. Also, in my opinion, you bashed Protosnake. LOL, Stephano wasn't even one of the top pro gamers in War3, whereas Jaedong was the best zerg in BW. Brood war is the hardest RTS to master. Idra, if you want i'll show clips and shows that he did, even said the Kespa Brood war players are the best RTS players on the planet. Idra is the best Zerg in NA. I'm pretty sure his opinion is miles ahead of anyone because he actually lived and played against those players as well. So yes, I think Jaedong is a better RTS player than Stephano. MVP, who is the best and most accomplished Starcraft 2 player (4 time GSL winner), couldn't even hang with Flash or Fantasy in BW. He'll tell you how good these BW Pros really are.
In Brood War. Their skills are not directly instantly transfered when they switch to a new game - and for this reason Stephano IS a better SC2 player at the moment than they are.
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On July 18 2012 13:55 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw Balance at the highest level is not the same as balance at lower levels. There is no reason to think that zerg is imbalanced based on Korean results. It's a problem. Who do we balance for? The best or the rest?
The problem comes from the game being soooo volatile in that the Zerg economy decides a lot of the games. Pros are able to do a lot with their harrassment and as a Terran you have to do it or lose the game eventually on a large map due to the Zerg being able to reproduce much faster than you. This is going to put any Zerg able to decently defend and have a good larva inject rhythm at a clear advantage on lower levels. Thus it isnt something which unit changes can fix (without making one unit rather [too] powerful) and should be fixed by changing the metagame. Only pro racedrivers can handle a racing car at high speed and that is the one thing which SC2 has gained in the macrogame over BW.
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On July 18 2012 14:55 iglocska wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 14:46 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 14:35 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 14:29 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:48 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 13:36 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:21 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 12:40 Reborn8u wrote:
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
It's funny how protoss' on this forum still think that hydras are great against gateway-units. It just shows the difference between protoss' who only hang around the balance-whine threads of teamliquid and battenet, making blatant, mindless, horrible points about balance of the game they don't even play above diamond level, and between protoss' who actually spend time playing this game, trying to be better by playing more and better, learning the game, instead of wasting all of their time to whine. Hydras are god-awful against every unit of the terran or protoss, except the sentry. The only unit which hydra wins supply or cost-effektive against the other races is the sentry. Theres a reason why NO ONE ever makes any hydras ever, and thats because they are god-awful against EVERYTHING. The only reason they might hold protoss air-pushes is that it can be mass-produced from the better economy of the Zergs, making it annihiliate the low-econ protoss air all-in. Also, to other matters, why isn't the gateway-expand viable? Because it was tested for the first year? Yeah, seems legit. During the first year of the game, zergs went ROACH-HYDRA against protoss, doing lingbling muta against terran. The game has almost completely changed, but protoss' still think that gateway-expand is god-horrible. There have been points made about the queen not being so imba, but the maps. The greater rush-distance makes terran's and toss' harass run greater ways, and those precious seconds will make the zerg possible to hold the harass easily, with no losses. This also works against roach-ling rushes against the gateway-expand, which gives you way greater ability to harass the zerg with warpgate units, which have almost zero travel-time. The other point made against gateway-expand is that it sets you behind economically. Waitwaitwait, let's just hold it here for a sec. Forge fast expand doesn't? It gives the Zerg absolutely free reign over the map, over his expansions, over his economy, for the first five minutes of the game, to the point that Zerg can get 3 fully saturated bases AND a 200/200 army of roachling at the moment protoss' usually take their third expansion. This ISN'T letting the zerg ahead in economy? Are you protoss' fucking retarded? And then theres Naniwa. Everyone can agree that Naniwa is way inferior player than DRG, but still Naniwa lost a close series against DRG in a recent GSL code S-game. How? Gateway-expand in the other game which he took, DRG made hydras in the second. Co-incidence? Like someone already said, if zerg doesn't dronescout and doesn't know is it FFE or gateway-expand he can't take his 3rd instead of his natural so freely, because if he does so, he gives you a greater ability to all-in him from 1-2 bases because the walkingdistance from his main to his third is so long, and at least you can try to make the zealot/stalker/stalker poke and probably kill the queen and some drones, or atleast force many lings from the zerg, without taking any damage yourself except propably losing the zealot. I just think that protoss' don't make the gateway-expand and try to do the stalker/zealot poke, because it's way, way, way, way easier to just make FFE and blindly sit in your base for the first ten minutes of the game, until moving out with the sentry/immortal all-in, taking freewins against roach-players. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Teambreezy, why did you make a new account, solely for the reason of balance-whine? Whats the problem with your main account? Why don't you want to show us your real internet-face? Drone scout?? pvz? I haven't seen a zerg scout with a drone since the patch. THe new overlords already see everything. Your first lord is sent to the protoss' expo as soon as the game starts so you already know it's a FFE or not. You're second lord will be sent to the third. Have you even watched a game since the patch? You clearly try to show yourself as a person who has watched the game for the whole duration of it's existence, and even more broodwar before that, and still you make just plain retarded one-word answers for every sentence the other speaker makes. Now I understand clearly, why you try to hide behind this second account, because you want to be plain retarded sometimes, while still maintaining the old wiseguy- performance on the first account. Does it grind your gears, being so bad at reading long and thought out- texts, that you just read some random bullshit from between the lines and make then a stupid one sentence-answer for the wall of text? If this thread is for conversation about balance, not mindless whine about the balance, please mods, for the sake of this thread, ban this guy. He creates bad blood and makes just plain stupid and retarded anwsers to everyone who tries to reason with him, making his conversation-partner mad about him and making him maybe even make bad statements, trying to then cast him in a bad light. Also, teambreezy, you need to admit it. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, everyone, they are absolute SHIT at this game compared to the likes of Stephano, MVP, MC. They might have been the emperors of their own races, the emperors of thousand nerds sitting in their basement like you, but now, they are bad. They will get better and maybe even win some starcraft 2-tournaments, but until then, they are absolute garbage. What did i do?? You are trying to ban me because arguing your point and you got nothing to say. I never bashed anyone. Yes. + Show Spoiler +See, I continued the same answer-lenght you did. I am not trying to ban you because you disagree with my opinion, I am trying to get you banned because you disagree with it, and your counter-argument against my point is, that you know who Jaedong is, and that you think that he is better in StarCraft2 than Stephano. Also, in my opinion, you bashed Protosnake. LOL, Stephano wasn't even one of the top pro gamers in War3, whereas Jaedong was the best zerg in BW. Brood war is the hardest RTS to master. Idra, if you want i'll show clips and shows that he did, even said the Kespa Brood war players are the best RTS players on the planet. Idra is the best Zerg in NA. I'm pretty sure his opinion is miles ahead of anyone because he actually lived and played against those players as well. So yes, I think Jaedong is a better RTS player than Stephano. MVP, who is the best and most accomplished Starcraft 2 player (4 time GSL winner), couldn't even hang with Flash or Fantasy in BW. He'll tell you how good these BW Pros really are. In Brood War. Their skills are not directly instantly transfered when they switch to a new game - and for this reason Stephano IS a better SC2 player at the moment than they are.
I don't know how people can actually make this comment. Stephano has never won a GSL/MLG. MVP/Nesta/MC/DRG are the best and most accomplished SC 2 players. Guess what game they came from?? BW. None of them made a big impact on BW. I put money that in a year, Effort/Jaedong/soulkey/jangbi/Flash/Fantasy.... and couple others, will be miles ahead of Stephano. If flash/fantasy/Jaedong/Jangbi all switch in 2010, the MVP's and Nestea of the world wouldn't be winning tournaments.
And i'm not hating on Stephano, I like the dude. I'm willing to put 1000 dollars that Effort will be better than Stephano in a year. If they balance out the races, i'm willing to put my house and car on Flash being 100x better than Stephano.
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On July 18 2012 14:38 dangthatsright wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:55 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw Balance at the highest level is not the same as balance at lower levels. There is no reason to think that zerg is imbalanced based on Korean results. It's a problem. Who do we balance for? The best or the rest? While GSL certainly does point towards Zerg not being overpowered, there are many more results outside of Korea (especially with WCS), and this makes it harder to conclude balance statements. This is almost definitely not a problem now, but during last year, the idea that Korea is the only place to look at for reliable balance at the highest level may have also resulted in the Terran overnerf trend (debatable, but personally this is what I feel happened, where even if there was imbalance that justified action, a buff should have occurred rather than whatever nerf did actually occur), since the GSL system at the time kept many players in code S when someone stuck in code A was probably better than them. With that being said, I do believe balance should be more geared towards the top level of play (this is related to why I still say some PvZ games in GSL are actually good, when I pretty much never say that otherwise), but it feels like there's a design flaw that could be fixed (nontrivially, no doubt) to keep perceived balance at the highest level and deal with the perceived imbalance at some lower levels. Specifically, the apparent steepness of macro mechanics in this game and how patches keep skipping intermediate values to make larger changes in a game super sensitive to these very changes.
I won't exclude the possibility that terrans may have been nerfed too far - the late-game composition for terran is weak in both match-ups. It seems like top korean terrans have found a way to handle the zerg composition, whether by avoiding direct confrontation and abusing BL immobility or by a super-composition in the late-late game (battle-cruiser and ravens as suggested by Byun). It doesn't change that at non-gosu levels the players simply aren't able to take advantage of these developments.
But we won't see any radical changes before HOTS and it feels like radical changes are needed for lower levels. For balancing at the very top (or just under), faster receding creep would be an interesting change. I would much rather see that change than to go back to the old queen-range and suffer through a million roach-bling and hellion all-ins and revert to the 8 minute ZvZ. A creep-decrease change would give more incentive to terrans to be active on the map denying the massive creep-spread from the 4-8 starting queens and would allow 'safer' pushes. It would also make overlord denies of expansions less powerful.
As always however, there will be unintended consequences and who knows if it would work out at all. Still, I think the queen-range brought a lot of positives and it would be a shame to have to go back on those improvements.
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On July 18 2012 13:55 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw Balance at the highest level is not the same as balance at lower levels. There is no reason to think that zerg is imbalanced based on Korean results. It's a problem. Who do we balance for? The best or the rest?
Who cares if you struggle at your, say, mid-master level play? As long as it is balanced at the highest level, nothing is wrong. Do you care if bronze is 70% Zerg win just because they can't defend 6 pool? Same thing.
We balance for the best, not for the rest. At least, that's how I see it.
Zerg seems to be OP based on the stats in this image. Can't conclude everything based on this alone, but 24 Zerg wins vs 11 T/P wins speak a lot.
I am not saying this because I play T or P. I play Zerg, yet this stats shows Zerg is OP.
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I'm getting worried about this huge map trend. The rush distance on some of the newer ones feels close to a minute... More than enough time for a Zerg to amass units safely. Feels very difficult to execute a strong timing push, especially when you factor in creep, baneling land mines, and the massive counter attack/reinforcement interception opportunity. Mobility is insane for Zerg and on huge maps it's so much worse.
Creep receding faster would be interesting...
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On July 18 2012 15:26 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:55 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw Balance at the highest level is not the same as balance at lower levels. There is no reason to think that zerg is imbalanced based on Korean results. It's a problem. Who do we balance for? The best or the rest? Who cares if you struggle at your, say, mid-master level play? As long as it is balanced at the highest level, nothing is wrong. Do you care if bronze is 70% Zerg win just because they can't defend 6 pool? Same thing. We balance for the best, not for the rest. At least, that's how I see it. Zerg seems to be OP based on the stats in this image. Can't conclude everything based on this alone, but 24 Zerg wins vs 11 T/P wins speak a lot. I am not saying this because I play T or P. I play Zerg, yet this stats shows Zerg is OP.
When I'm saying 'the best', I'm being even more elitist than that. I'm thinking the highest level in Korea, where, based on results, there is no reason to think that zerg is overpowered. It's basically an old problem - for whatever reason Korean terrans are a lot stronger than their foreign brethren. GomTvT and all that jazz. By trying to handle the issue of dominating terrans in Korea by using the nerf(and sometimes buff)-bat, terrans outside of Korea have suffered. But it is not obvious what to do about it.
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On July 18 2012 15:32 Zahir wrote:
I'm getting worried about this huge map trend. The rush distance on some of the newer ones feels close to a minute... More than enough time for a Zerg to amass units safely. Feels very difficult to execute a strong timing push, especially when you factor in creep, baneling land mines, and the massive counter attack/reinforcement interception opportunity. Mobility is insane for Zerg and on huge maps it's so much worse.
Creep receding faster would be interesting...
For map size and rush distance, I wrote comprehensive guides before.
Check
Map Size History & Analysis
[G]Map Distance & Travel Time
Maps are certainly getting bigger over time as you can see from the first link.
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On July 18 2012 15:20 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 14:38 dangthatsright wrote:On July 18 2012 13:55 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw Balance at the highest level is not the same as balance at lower levels. There is no reason to think that zerg is imbalanced based on Korean results. It's a problem. Who do we balance for? The best or the rest? While GSL certainly does point towards Zerg not being overpowered, there are many more results outside of Korea (especially with WCS), and this makes it harder to conclude balance statements. This is almost definitely not a problem now, but during last year, the idea that Korea is the only place to look at for reliable balance at the highest level may have also resulted in the Terran overnerf trend (debatable, but personally this is what I feel happened, where even if there was imbalance that justified action, a buff should have occurred rather than whatever nerf did actually occur), since the GSL system at the time kept many players in code S when someone stuck in code A was probably better than them. With that being said, I do believe balance should be more geared towards the top level of play (this is related to why I still say some PvZ games in GSL are actually good, when I pretty much never say that otherwise), but it feels like there's a design flaw that could be fixed (nontrivially, no doubt) to keep perceived balance at the highest level and deal with the perceived imbalance at some lower levels. Specifically, the apparent steepness of macro mechanics in this game and how patches keep skipping intermediate values to make larger changes in a game super sensitive to these very changes. I won't exclude the possibility that terrans may have been nerfed too far - the late-game composition for terran is weak in both match-ups. It seems like top korean terrans have found a way to handle the zerg composition, whether by avoiding direct confrontation and abusing BL immobility or by a super-composition in the late-late game (battle-cruiser and ravens as suggested by Byun). It doesn't change that at non-gosu levels the players simply aren't able to take advantage of these developments. But we won't see any radical changes before HOTS and it feels like radical changes are needed for lower levels. For balancing at the very top (or just under), faster receding creep would be an interesting change. I would much rather see that change than to go back to the old queen-range and suffer through a million roach-bling and hellion all-ins and revert to the 8 minute ZvZ. A creep-decrease change would give more incentive to terrans to be active on the map denying the massive creep-spread from the 4-8 starting queens and would allow 'safer' pushes. It would also make overlord denies of expansions less powerful. As always however, there will be unintended consequences and who knows if it would work out at all. Still, I think the queen-range brought a lot of positives and it would be a shame to have to go back on those improvements.
Agreed with most of this, though I still wonder if 4 range queens rather than 5 range queens would have sufficed (other stuff like that as well, such as snipe). I don't think I've consistently seen the TvZ possibilities for dealing with the Zerg deathball (though I've seen each of them and in theory, those should work in a sufficiently balanced game), so we'll have to see (one reason why Byun vs DRG finals might be very interesting in GSL)
I actually only just now remembered that there's a PTR that really hasn't seen much use at all, which probably says something about how much it's being used. I guess Blizzard found it less useful than intended since pros aren't going to use their serious practice time on it (though they might have spent some time on it, idk how pros roll). Still, it would be a good way to test some of the less extreme ideas (the most extreme should be saved for HotS imo).
On July 18 2012 15:32 Zahir wrote:
I'm getting worried about this huge map trend. The rush distance on some of the newer ones feels close to a minute... More than enough time for a Zerg to amass units safely. Feels very difficult to execute a strong timing push, especially when you factor in creep, baneling land mines, and the massive counter attack/reinforcement interception opportunity. Mobility is insane for Zerg and on huge maps it's so much worse.
Creep receding faster would be interesting...
It's a very weird dynamic, because while this certainly seems like the case in the early and mid game, it also might play in the favor of a Terran who attempts to go for heavy drop styles against the infestor broodlord ball in the late game or Protoss doing the same with speed warp prisms. Lings are still insanely fast though, so possibly not the case. There's really no way to figure that detail out if most (broadcast) games don't even seem to get there.
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On July 18 2012 15:36 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 15:26 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:55 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw Balance at the highest level is not the same as balance at lower levels. There is no reason to think that zerg is imbalanced based on Korean results. It's a problem. Who do we balance for? The best or the rest? Who cares if you struggle at your, say, mid-master level play? As long as it is balanced at the highest level, nothing is wrong. Do you care if bronze is 70% Zerg win just because they can't defend 6 pool? Same thing. We balance for the best, not for the rest. At least, that's how I see it. Zerg seems to be OP based on the stats in this image. Can't conclude everything based on this alone, but 24 Zerg wins vs 11 T/P wins speak a lot. I am not saying this because I play T or P. I play Zerg, yet this stats shows Zerg is OP. When I'm saying 'the best', I'm being even more elitist than that. I'm thinking the highest level in Korea, where, based on results, there is no reason to think that zerg is overpowered. It's basically an old problem - for whatever reason Korean terrans are a lot stronger than their foreign brethren. GomTvT and all that jazz. By trying to handle the issue of dominating terrans in Korea by using the nerf(and sometimes buff)-bat, terrans outside of Korea have suffered. But it is not obvious what to do about it.
Where are you getting that the best of the best terrans in korea are doing fine?? I keep reading zergs saying that tvz is balanced at the top... and even some terrans seem to be repeating it. From what i see, at the very top level of starcraft 2 gaming... zerg is enjoying around a 65 percent win percentage .... which if you really think about it... is unacceptable
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On July 18 2012 15:57 Surgical_Strike wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 15:36 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 15:26 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:55 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:
[quote]
Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable.
Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything.
[quote]
It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure.
Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed.
It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw Balance at the highest level is not the same as balance at lower levels. There is no reason to think that zerg is imbalanced based on Korean results. It's a problem. Who do we balance for? The best or the rest? Who cares if you struggle at your, say, mid-master level play? As long as it is balanced at the highest level, nothing is wrong. Do you care if bronze is 70% Zerg win just because they can't defend 6 pool? Same thing. We balance for the best, not for the rest. At least, that's how I see it. Zerg seems to be OP based on the stats in this image. Can't conclude everything based on this alone, but 24 Zerg wins vs 11 T/P wins speak a lot. I am not saying this because I play T or P. I play Zerg, yet this stats shows Zerg is OP. When I'm saying 'the best', I'm being even more elitist than that. I'm thinking the highest level in Korea, where, based on results, there is no reason to think that zerg is overpowered. It's basically an old problem - for whatever reason Korean terrans are a lot stronger than their foreign brethren. GomTvT and all that jazz. By trying to handle the issue of dominating terrans in Korea by using the nerf(and sometimes buff)-bat, terrans outside of Korea have suffered. But it is not obvious what to do about it. Where are you getting that the best of the best terrans in korea are doing fine?? I keep reading zergs saying that tvz is balanced at the top... and even some terrans seem to be repeating it. From what i see, at the very top level of starcraft 2 gaming... zerg is enjoying around a 65 percent win percentage .... which if you really think about it... is unacceptable
I'm not sure where you are finding your numbers, but as far as I can tell from GSL, GSTL, ESV weekly and TSL and MLG qualifiers, terrans are doing just fine.
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On July 18 2012 15:57 Surgical_Strike wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 15:36 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 15:26 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:55 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:
[quote]
Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable.
Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything.
[quote]
It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure.
Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed.
It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw Balance at the highest level is not the same as balance at lower levels. There is no reason to think that zerg is imbalanced based on Korean results. It's a problem. Who do we balance for? The best or the rest? Who cares if you struggle at your, say, mid-master level play? As long as it is balanced at the highest level, nothing is wrong. Do you care if bronze is 70% Zerg win just because they can't defend 6 pool? Same thing. We balance for the best, not for the rest. At least, that's how I see it. Zerg seems to be OP based on the stats in this image. Can't conclude everything based on this alone, but 24 Zerg wins vs 11 T/P wins speak a lot. I am not saying this because I play T or P. I play Zerg, yet this stats shows Zerg is OP. When I'm saying 'the best', I'm being even more elitist than that. I'm thinking the highest level in Korea, where, based on results, there is no reason to think that zerg is overpowered. It's basically an old problem - for whatever reason Korean terrans are a lot stronger than their foreign brethren. GomTvT and all that jazz. By trying to handle the issue of dominating terrans in Korea by using the nerf(and sometimes buff)-bat, terrans outside of Korea have suffered. But it is not obvious what to do about it. Where are you getting that the best of the best terrans in korea are doing fine?? I keep reading zergs saying that tvz is balanced at the top... and even some terrans seem to be repeating it. From what i see, at the very top level of starcraft 2 gaming... zerg is enjoying around a 65 percent win percentage .... which if you really think about it... is unacceptable
There was a stats on all match-ups I saw a couple weeks ago where TvZ in Korea was close to 50% while it was so much less outside Korea. I can't find it now, but I think many are referring to that stats. Link is appreciated if anyone can find it.
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On July 18 2012 16:07 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 15:57 Surgical_Strike wrote:On July 18 2012 15:36 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 15:26 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:55 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:
[quote]
I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time.
I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders.
Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw Balance at the highest level is not the same as balance at lower levels. There is no reason to think that zerg is imbalanced based on Korean results. It's a problem. Who do we balance for? The best or the rest? Who cares if you struggle at your, say, mid-master level play? As long as it is balanced at the highest level, nothing is wrong. Do you care if bronze is 70% Zerg win just because they can't defend 6 pool? Same thing. We balance for the best, not for the rest. At least, that's how I see it. Zerg seems to be OP based on the stats in this image. Can't conclude everything based on this alone, but 24 Zerg wins vs 11 T/P wins speak a lot. I am not saying this because I play T or P. I play Zerg, yet this stats shows Zerg is OP. When I'm saying 'the best', I'm being even more elitist than that. I'm thinking the highest level in Korea, where, based on results, there is no reason to think that zerg is overpowered. It's basically an old problem - for whatever reason Korean terrans are a lot stronger than their foreign brethren. GomTvT and all that jazz. By trying to handle the issue of dominating terrans in Korea by using the nerf(and sometimes buff)-bat, terrans outside of Korea have suffered. But it is not obvious what to do about it. Where are you getting that the best of the best terrans in korea are doing fine?? I keep reading zergs saying that tvz is balanced at the top... and even some terrans seem to be repeating it. From what i see, at the very top level of starcraft 2 gaming... zerg is enjoying around a 65 percent win percentage .... which if you really think about it... is unacceptable There was a stats on all match-ups I saw a couple weeks ago where TvZ in Korea was close to 50% while it was so much less outside Korea. I can't find it now, but I think many are referring to that stats. Link is appreciated if anyone can find it.
well i have not seen that stat... but since he was speaking of the elite and mentioned "gomtvt" ill give you this stat which is basically all the gom games after the queen patch up untill a few days back when 1.44 dropped
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=Z&vsrace=T&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=1.4.3(2)&mapid=0
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On July 18 2012 16:27 Surgical_Strike wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 16:07 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 15:57 Surgical_Strike wrote:On July 18 2012 15:36 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 15:26 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:55 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:
[quote]
Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now.
I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level.
I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work.
Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you.
Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it.
The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw Balance at the highest level is not the same as balance at lower levels. There is no reason to think that zerg is imbalanced based on Korean results. It's a problem. Who do we balance for? The best or the rest? Who cares if you struggle at your, say, mid-master level play? As long as it is balanced at the highest level, nothing is wrong. Do you care if bronze is 70% Zerg win just because they can't defend 6 pool? Same thing. We balance for the best, not for the rest. At least, that's how I see it. Zerg seems to be OP based on the stats in this image. Can't conclude everything based on this alone, but 24 Zerg wins vs 11 T/P wins speak a lot. I am not saying this because I play T or P. I play Zerg, yet this stats shows Zerg is OP. When I'm saying 'the best', I'm being even more elitist than that. I'm thinking the highest level in Korea, where, based on results, there is no reason to think that zerg is overpowered. It's basically an old problem - for whatever reason Korean terrans are a lot stronger than their foreign brethren. GomTvT and all that jazz. By trying to handle the issue of dominating terrans in Korea by using the nerf(and sometimes buff)-bat, terrans outside of Korea have suffered. But it is not obvious what to do about it. Where are you getting that the best of the best terrans in korea are doing fine?? I keep reading zergs saying that tvz is balanced at the top... and even some terrans seem to be repeating it. From what i see, at the very top level of starcraft 2 gaming... zerg is enjoying around a 65 percent win percentage .... which if you really think about it... is unacceptable There was a stats on all match-ups I saw a couple weeks ago where TvZ in Korea was close to 50% while it was so much less outside Korea. I can't find it now, but I think many are referring to that stats. Link is appreciated if anyone can find it. well i have not seen that stat... but since he was speaking of the elite and mentioned "gomtvt" ill give you this stat which is basically all the gom games after the queen patch up untill a few days back when 1.44 dropped http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=Z&vsrace=T&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=1.4.3(2)&mapid=0
But now the balance changes of 1.4.4 have broken the game the other way around and terrans are up 10-1 in maps since the patch ^^
Are you arguing, that terrans in Korea are currently struggling?
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3 days is a little quick to count lol... add them together and its still imbalanced... but nice try
ps YES korean terrans are struggeling. Im not sure if you just havent watched many games lately or if you are blind, because its been pretty clear that top korean and foreign terrans have been hurting badly since the queen/overlord patch
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Well, if you look at top 10 ELO terrans and their record for past 10 TvZ and top 10 ELO zergs and their record for past ZvT, you can tell there is clearly a difference.
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On July 18 2012 16:45 Surgical_Strike wrote:
3 days is a little quick to count lol... add them together and its still imbalanced... but nice try
ps YES korean terrans are struggeling. Im not sure if you just havent watched many games lately or if you are blind, because its been pretty clear that top korean and foreign terrans have been hurting badly since the queen/overlord patch
Well, we will just have to disagree. I don't think the recent results in GSL, GSTL, ESV, TSL & MLG qualifier indicates any weakness in the terran race - although I can see why some might disagree over GSTL.
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On July 18 2012 16:44 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 16:27 Surgical_Strike wrote:On July 18 2012 16:07 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 15:57 Surgical_Strike wrote:On July 18 2012 15:36 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 15:26 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:55 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:
[quote]
LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL
It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet?
Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw Balance at the highest level is not the same as balance at lower levels. There is no reason to think that zerg is imbalanced based on Korean results. It's a problem. Who do we balance for? The best or the rest? Who cares if you struggle at your, say, mid-master level play? As long as it is balanced at the highest level, nothing is wrong. Do you care if bronze is 70% Zerg win just because they can't defend 6 pool? Same thing. We balance for the best, not for the rest. At least, that's how I see it. Zerg seems to be OP based on the stats in this image. Can't conclude everything based on this alone, but 24 Zerg wins vs 11 T/P wins speak a lot. I am not saying this because I play T or P. I play Zerg, yet this stats shows Zerg is OP. When I'm saying 'the best', I'm being even more elitist than that. I'm thinking the highest level in Korea, where, based on results, there is no reason to think that zerg is overpowered. It's basically an old problem - for whatever reason Korean terrans are a lot stronger than their foreign brethren. GomTvT and all that jazz. By trying to handle the issue of dominating terrans in Korea by using the nerf(and sometimes buff)-bat, terrans outside of Korea have suffered. But it is not obvious what to do about it. Where are you getting that the best of the best terrans in korea are doing fine?? I keep reading zergs saying that tvz is balanced at the top... and even some terrans seem to be repeating it. From what i see, at the very top level of starcraft 2 gaming... zerg is enjoying around a 65 percent win percentage .... which if you really think about it... is unacceptable There was a stats on all match-ups I saw a couple weeks ago where TvZ in Korea was close to 50% while it was so much less outside Korea. I can't find it now, but I think many are referring to that stats. Link is appreciated if anyone can find it. well i have not seen that stat... but since he was speaking of the elite and mentioned "gomtvt" ill give you this stat which is basically all the gom games after the queen patch up untill a few days back when 1.44 dropped http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=Z&vsrace=T&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=1.4.3(2)&mapid=0 But now the balance changes of 1.4.4 have broken the game the other way around and terrans are up 10-1 in maps since the patch ^^ Are you arguing, that terrans in Korea are currently struggling?
So together the GSL records show a 74/54 record of maps in favor of Zerg. Which is a 57.8% ZvT rate. In series, the score is 50/31 in favor of Zerg which translates to a 61.7% chance to advance.
I would also argue, that 'the best' that 'Blizzard should balance for' should include also the western pro-gaming scene. The top 4 of at least monthly events (the daily/weekly can include some weaker player with a great grid) should possess sufficient skill and mechanics to make a reliable balancing ground.
Also it it probably impossible to balance for just the top koreans simply because your sample size for statistics will be WAY too low and too volatile.
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On July 18 2012 16:53 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 16:45 Surgical_Strike wrote:
3 days is a little quick to count lol... add them together and its still imbalanced... but nice try
ps YES korean terrans are struggeling. Im not sure if you just havent watched many games lately or if you are blind, because its been pretty clear that top korean and foreign terrans have been hurting badly since the queen/overlord patch Well, we will just have to disagree. I don't think the recent results in GSL, GSTL, ESV, TSL & MLG qualifier indicates any weakness in the terran race - although I can see why some might disagree over GSTL.
TSL qualifier doesn't indicate weakness in the terran race?
7 out of 29 spots are terrans (24.1%) and if you look at the top 20 in both Korea and NA/EU, you find 4 and 3 terrans respectively. You would expect nearly twice as much.
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My perspective on this is that, generally speaking, Terran is struggling both in Korea and outside Korea.
However, foreign Terrans are struggling so much harder than top Korean Terrans.
To be fair, top Korean Terrans are struggling as well, but not nearly as bad as foreign Terrans.
So, TvZ imbalance is probably smaller than English based community makes it to be.
Many opinions in this thread or other places sound like TvZ is now 30-70 or something, while it is probably 45-55 or 40-60 at top level. We probably need some nerf to Zerg if this trend continues, but overdoing it based on "inferior" foreign Terran results would make Code S level balance flip the other way around.
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EPT
