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On July 18 2012 12:27 Reborn8u wrote:
Honestly, I think the horrible game design is that the zergs macro mechanic can deny air harass or early crono'd zealot pressure. While giving them creep spread which turns into half map free vision and a free speed boost to the fastest army in the game. Zergs have all these overlords around that they could be using for creep spread and vision, but they don't even have to bother, because tumor creep spread is so much better. Protoss as a race got screwed pretty hard for having crono and warp gate, because crono'ing out warp research triggered so many nerfs to warp gate. Yet 4 gating is still one of the most popular strats in pvp.
I've been saying for over a year, that when zergs started to actually micro at the level that top toss, and terran players have been since almost release, that zerg would seem unstoppable. Up until just the last few months I've been watching the "best" zerg players in the world not even micro back infestors after the energy was used,letting them die pointlessly. Not target firing things like sentries. Not abusing burrow (with trapping units, delaying expansions ect). Now these are all quite common and they make PvZ a nightmare for toss. When that infestor count stays high, or your 3rd gets delayed because of a burrowed ling, or your 2 base gate all in at zergs 3rd gets stopped because of roach burrow.
Are you so sure? Double Stargate after FFE is a viable build order after all. In fact, unless you basically mass-produce Queens which can be a terrible idea versus some things, massed up Void Rays turn into a pain to deal with.
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On July 18 2012 12:35 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:27 Reborn8u wrote:
What made the Stephano style possible was when warp gate research got a nerf to "fix" pvp. Before that change you could easily punish a greedy third by zerg. That was just a 20sec nerf. If anything, Stephano would open with a 6:30 roach warren instead of 7:00. Show nested quote +
But truthfully, zergs don't really have to bother exploring these things if they don't want to. The stephano style doesn't have a counter. There is no build order win possible from protoss. I think this matchup will have more adjustments made in the future
A lot of counter has already been found, MC super early 6gate pressure, or the immortal-sentry all-in Stephano just adjusted to these immediatly, by getting a way earlier gas/roach warren, switching upgrade, getting more evo, opening with lings instead of roaches, these little flaws that force him to get less and less greedy are gonna slowly make his build less effective over time
I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it.
On July 18 2012 12:36 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:27 Reborn8u wrote:
Honestly, I think the horrible game design is that the zergs macro mechanic can deny air harass or early crono'd zealot pressure. While giving them creep spread which turns into half map free vision and a free speed boost to the fastest army in the game. Zergs have all these overlords around that they could be using for creep spread and vision, but they don't even have to bother, because tumor creep spread is so much better. Protoss as a race got screwed pretty hard for having crono and warp gate, because crono'ing out warp research triggered so many nerfs to warp gate. Yet 4 gating is still one of the most popular strats in pvp.
I've been saying for over a year, that when zergs started to actually micro at the level that top toss, and terran players have been since almost release, that zerg would seem unstoppable. Up until just the last few months I've been watching the "best" zerg players in the world not even micro back infestors after the energy was used,letting them die pointlessly. Not target firing things like sentries. Not abusing burrow (with trapping units, delaying expansions ect). Now these are all quite common and they make PvZ a nightmare for toss. When that infestor count stays high, or your 3rd gets delayed because of a burrowed ling, or your 2 base gate all in at zergs 3rd gets stopped because of roach burrow.
Are you so sure? Double Stargate after FFE is a viable build order after all. In fact, unless you basically mass-produce Queens which can be a terrible idea versus some things, massed up Void Rays turn into a pain to deal with.
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
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I've lost interest in tournaments and ladder but does anyone else think they should have used the expansions to fix balance issues? The only reason to have a sequel is to continue the story so that should have been their focus.
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On July 18 2012 11:48 Heavenlee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 11:43 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 11:33 VTPerfect wrote:On July 18 2012 11:28 m0ck wrote:We're talking about the best ZvP-player in the world, it seems rather strange to base any conclusions around whether he does well in the match-up or not - and let's not pretend like he is unbeatable either. Mana and Sase might have a word to say about that. To say that he "lazily walked over" Hero and MC doesn't seem like a fair description of the matches. They were close matches with some pretty major mistakes on especially Hero's part. 2-base all-in against a 2-base spine-crawler fortified zerg with infestors? To say that "roach-ling" holds off any protoss aggression/all-in is simplistic and borderline disingenuous (not to say wrong) - it is certainly possible to force for example hydras with heavy air play. And a lot more goes into a defence than simply building roaches and lings, including scouting/reading your opponent, having units at the right timing and having the right mix of units. AS we've seen again and again, very few zergs are able to do that and very few zergs have the APM to do it. Let's not forget that the best ZvP-players, Stephano and DRG, both are 380-400 APM players. In any case, the statistics in Korea tells another story than your lament of racial imbalance - the match-up actually seems balanced. But maybe that is just because of 'stupid' zergs? http://minus.com/mLvjZlHez/1g yeah... when zerg dominates 90% of all the tournaments for the past 2 months, I guess the 1 stat that says zerg doesnt dominate proves everything wrong. its just a matter of how long the unfair imbalance that is propelling zerg into so many undeserved tournament positions will continue. or maybe all the good players decided to go zerg 2 month ago maybe... It is a problem, who do we balance for. The best or the rest? I agree that outside of Korea, zerg seems dominant at the moment. But you just don't see that pattern in Korea. Why is that and what can be done about it? It doesn't seem to make much sense to say that the match-up is inherently broken when among the best players in the world there is no evidence of such. Unfortunately you are basing your assumptions off a stupid chart that has been heavily criticized for excluding many zerg-dominated tournaments and matches, which makes it more like 60% to 40%. Here, I'll quote this for you: Show nested quote +The Korea TvZ numbers really shocked me. So I went through just the current GSL's numbers so far. Keep in mind that many of these games will be included in July results. TvZ is right now 28-47. 37% win rate for Terran, 63% win rate for Zerg. In other words, even more imbalanced than the June International results.
I'm pretty sure that even Blizzard has admitted that a 20% gap in a matchup indicates a balance issue. Of course this is only one tournament (albeit with a large sample size and the highest skilled players in the world), but still.
GSL Code A+S TVZ
Nestea v STC 2-0
SuHoSin v MVP 1-2
Sniper v Supernova 1-2
YuGiOh v MKP 1-2
Symbol v MKP 2-0
DRG v Maru 2-1
Violet v Maru 2-1
Leenock v Ryung 0-2
Leenock v Taeja 0-2
Violet v MVP 2-0
Symbol v MKP 2-1
DRG v Ryung 2-1
Nestea v Supernova 2-0
Nestea v Supernova 2-1
Monster v Jjakji 0-2
YuGiOh v Harrier 2-0
Freaky v Bomber 1-2
Losira v Hack 1-2
Total: 25-21
GSTL TVZ
Life v TL 1-0
Life v Slayers 1-0
Symbol v Fnatic 1-0
Losira v TSL 1-0
Symbol v IM 3-0
Moon v IM 1-0
Byul v IM 1-0
Annyeong v Fnatic 1-0
Moon v Prime 2-0
BBong v TSL 0-1
Sniper v Fnatic 2-0
Coca v Prime 3-0
KingKong v HoSeo 0-1
Curious v HoSeo 0-1
Ragnarok v FXO 0-1
Shine v FXO 1-0
Hyun v HoSeo 1-1
Symbol v HoSeo 0-1
Revival v HoSeo 1-0
Lucky v Startale 1-1
Leenock vs Startale 1-0
Total: 22-7
Grand Total: 47-28. 63% Z v 37% T.
I'm not sure whether these are june-numbers, but they certainly aren't complete. Here are the matches that have been played since or simply left out (!):
GSL
Happy v Suhosin 2-0 (not counted)
Yoda v July 2-0
Virus v Shine 0-2
Heart v Yugioh 2-0
Taeja v Violet 2-1 (not counted)
Byun v Nestea 3-0
11-3
I can see that you have once again been selective in the results from GSTL, but I'm only correcting 'mistakes' from the second group play. Too much hassle to go through the first.
GSTL
Alive v prime 1-0 (not counted)
Alive v MVP 1-0 (not counted)
Alive v Slayers 2-0
Gumiho v TSL 1-0
Jjakji v TSL 2-1
7-1
All in all:
GSL TvZ 32-28
GSTL TvZ 14-23
Together 46-51 ( 47 - 53%)
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On July 18 2012 12:35 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:27 Reborn8u wrote:
What made the Stephano style possible was when warp gate research got a nerf to "fix" pvp. Before that change you could easily punish a greedy third by zerg. That was just a 20sec nerf. If anything, Stephano would open with a 6:30 roach warren instead of 7:00. Show nested quote +
But truthfully, zergs don't really have to bother exploring these things if they don't want to. The stephano style doesn't have a counter. There is no build order win possible from protoss. I think this matchup will have more adjustments made in the future
A lot of counter has already been found, MC super early 6gate pressure, or the immortal-sentry all-in Stephano just adjusted to these immediatly, by getting a way earlier gas/roach warren, switching upgrade, getting more evo, opening with lings instead of roaches, these little flaws that force him to get less and less greedy are gonna slowly make his build less effective over time
20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile.
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I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it.
Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable.
Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything.
20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile.
It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure.
Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed.
It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player.
PS : Last time Stephano played against MMA or MKP he got destroyed(1.4.3.2 doesnt affect at all his build) , and his record against MC are somewhat unstable if not favoring MC. Saying that he can only lose to ZvZ is pretty wrong
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On July 18 2012 12:21 Heavenlee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:17 Big J wrote:On July 18 2012 10:57 Heavenlee wrote:On July 18 2012 10:50 Big J wrote:On July 18 2012 09:11 Heavenlee wrote:On July 18 2012 08:59 wcr.4fun wrote:On July 18 2012 08:55 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2012 08:51 wcr.4fun wrote:On July 18 2012 07:58 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 07:30 Big J wrote:
[quote]
You mean it's retarded that Protoss can't take a third good enough, due to roaches? Yes it is!
You mean it's retarded that Zerg is forced to go 3bases superearly to not get outmacroed by a FFE build but on the flipside can only hold 50% of the Protoss allins, because this greedy strategy makes it very hard to actually hold them?
And don't come with "Zerg has to fuck up to not defend the allin". After all it's Protoss that have the possibility to "FF better" as well a lot of the times (which is not easy, but a lot of times it also comes down simply to FFs). you know why Protoss' started to FFE in the first place?? Because zerg's were taking an extra base regardless. Being down 2 bases to 3 is better than 1 base to 2. Zerg's only get 33 percent more income than protoss 3 bases to 2, where as Zerg's double Protoss' income 2 bases to 1. This is called meta game. Adapting to what works best against common zergs. If zerg's didn't expo 3 bases they would have more units therefore hold off Protoss All-in's even easier. What am i saying, 3 base Zerg's hold off any Protoss 2 base all-ins 85 percent of the time so nvm. You know it takes a lot of sentries to FF, and which they have no dps. The big difference, Zerg's can lose the 3rd base, re-expand and win the game. Protoss fail all-in is automatically lose. No; try taking a third against 3 gate expand. That'd be kinda dumb though, there's no need for the superfast 3rd which is a response to an FFE to pump out your economy when you're racing a relatively uneconomic opener I understand that. He was saying 'zergs can take third regardless what P is doing', but that's not true at all. I understand 3 gate expand came before 1 gate expand, but I never played during the time that 1 gate expand was popular so can't comment on that. But I know for sure that zergs weren't taking thirds versus 3 gate expand. I just had an issue with saying 'Z can take third regardless of what P is doing.' We see Stephano do the same opener every time---a surge of lings and maybe a few roaches for map control, then he is completely safe to do whatever he wants and god forbid the toss attempts to take a quick third or apply any light pressure. He is either safe to expand, drone, tech, or all three at once, while maintaining the possibility of denying the protoss third while going up to four base. We even see zergs have learned to be greedier than before in some cases, such as Ret v Puzzle on Cloud Kingdom where he held off a two base all-in while taking his fourth instead of a macro hatch, and teching up to infestors. Some toss are now doing 1 gate expands because zergs don't recall how to handle them, but after a couple games of practice and looking back a bit they will---make speed on your zerglings and delay your third and prevent them from ever taking an expansion. Again, the zerg will have an economic advantage if they play properly. Either way the zerg will have an economic advantage going into the midgame. Just because in the past zergs suicided a ton, didn't understand timings or scouting patterns, etc. and made the win ratio even or sometimes even toss favored when a new all-in came out, does not make them currently balanced. Yeah, we get it. Zerg players are too dumb to defend allins and it's not Stephano outclassing his opponents at NASL, but rather just abusing Zerg imbaness. When 2months ago all the whine was about Terrans "not having a chance in TvP" and "having to rely on allins and drops", it was just Protoss players being too dumb to defend them. And yeah, Stephano did the same opener in the NASL finals against Alicia (who btw played horrible). Guess what... MC won two GSL's by basically using 1 build for PvT and PvZ (6gate), and one build for PvP (4gate). Maybe the way stephano does is not really figuered out yet? Or maybe you just have to be on even level with him to win (MC took two games of him and has beaten him several times before). Did you even read anything I said? I said they were too dumb to defend allins which is true. Look at how they defended gateway all-ins in the past and lost all the time, compared to how they almost never lose to them now. Compare how people were recently losing to immortal/sentry all-in and then the better players began to figure out how the engage, and then it made it easier to hold. So yes, they were too "dumb" to defend all-ins, that seriously just can't be argued if you watch this game. Provide proof that Stephano outclassed his opponents instead of taking advantage of zerg being favored at the moment. Can you? No, there is no objective way to prove that he had better timings, map awareness, build orders, etc. or that his build is just a panacea. And I can't prove he didn't outclass his opponents. But we can look at every other game in the state of PvZ and how zerg always seems to magically have an advantage, then it becomes likely that that "outclassing" is because when both play a standard game the zerg has the advantage---since you kind of see them winning everything, zergs that were considered nobodies in the past taking games off great players of both protoss and terran, etc. Yeah, we look at those PvZs and see a "magical advantage" of 50% winrate. I don't care what advantages you see, but apparently the game is about winning and if those advantages of zerg only lead to 50:50 winrate, they are not advantages in a sense of "overall better off", but just "more absolute income" or "more absolute supply", yet if Protoss combats zerg with mass T2 (blink, immortals) and the occasional Stargate or T3 Archon or Colossus units and zergs only play roaches against it, then Protoss has tech advantages they seem to emphasize on and supplyefficiency advantages that they can emphasize on and it seems to balance out. Yes, that magical 50-50 winrate has lead to 24 zerg tournament wins to 8 protoss wins and 3 terran wins, 40 zerg final appearances to 20 protoss and 10 terran, and 64-49-26 semifinals.
The problem with this is that Zergs have been winning a lot outside of Korea for a very long time now. Zerg won more minor tournaments in Europe in 2011 than Terran, even during the GomTvT days.
Basically, balance the game for foreigners and have GomTvT as a side effect, or somewhat balance it for Code S and have Zerg and to a lesser extent Protoss winning almost everything else if there are no Code S Terrans around.
It's a more fundamental game design problem, in my opinion. Zerg units/unit compositions need to be more difficult to control, but more rewarding if controlled well, generally speaking. I'm not sure if HotS sufficiently addresses that.
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On July 18 2012 12:50 Nourek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:21 Heavenlee wrote:On July 18 2012 12:17 Big J wrote:On July 18 2012 10:57 Heavenlee wrote:On July 18 2012 10:50 Big J wrote:On July 18 2012 09:11 Heavenlee wrote:On July 18 2012 08:59 wcr.4fun wrote:On July 18 2012 08:55 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2012 08:51 wcr.4fun wrote:On July 18 2012 07:58 TeamBreezy wrote:
[quote]
you know why Protoss' started to FFE in the first place?? Because zerg's were taking an extra base regardless. Being down 2 bases to 3 is better than 1 base to 2. Zerg's only get 33 percent more income than protoss 3 bases to 2, where as Zerg's double Protoss' income 2 bases to 1. This is called meta game. Adapting to what works best against common zergs. If zerg's didn't expo 3 bases they would have more units therefore hold off Protoss All-in's even easier. What am i saying, 3 base Zerg's hold off any Protoss 2 base all-ins 85 percent of the time so nvm. You know it takes a lot of sentries to FF, and which they have no dps.
The big difference, Zerg's can lose the 3rd base, re-expand and win the game. Protoss fail all-in is automatically lose.
No; try taking a third against 3 gate expand. That'd be kinda dumb though, there's no need for the superfast 3rd which is a response to an FFE to pump out your economy when you're racing a relatively uneconomic opener I understand that. He was saying 'zergs can take third regardless what P is doing', but that's not true at all. I understand 3 gate expand came before 1 gate expand, but I never played during the time that 1 gate expand was popular so can't comment on that. But I know for sure that zergs weren't taking thirds versus 3 gate expand. I just had an issue with saying 'Z can take third regardless of what P is doing.' We see Stephano do the same opener every time---a surge of lings and maybe a few roaches for map control, then he is completely safe to do whatever he wants and god forbid the toss attempts to take a quick third or apply any light pressure. He is either safe to expand, drone, tech, or all three at once, while maintaining the possibility of denying the protoss third while going up to four base. We even see zergs have learned to be greedier than before in some cases, such as Ret v Puzzle on Cloud Kingdom where he held off a two base all-in while taking his fourth instead of a macro hatch, and teching up to infestors. Some toss are now doing 1 gate expands because zergs don't recall how to handle them, but after a couple games of practice and looking back a bit they will---make speed on your zerglings and delay your third and prevent them from ever taking an expansion. Again, the zerg will have an economic advantage if they play properly. Either way the zerg will have an economic advantage going into the midgame. Just because in the past zergs suicided a ton, didn't understand timings or scouting patterns, etc. and made the win ratio even or sometimes even toss favored when a new all-in came out, does not make them currently balanced. Yeah, we get it. Zerg players are too dumb to defend allins and it's not Stephano outclassing his opponents at NASL, but rather just abusing Zerg imbaness. When 2months ago all the whine was about Terrans "not having a chance in TvP" and "having to rely on allins and drops", it was just Protoss players being too dumb to defend them. And yeah, Stephano did the same opener in the NASL finals against Alicia (who btw played horrible). Guess what... MC won two GSL's by basically using 1 build for PvT and PvZ (6gate), and one build for PvP (4gate). Maybe the way stephano does is not really figuered out yet? Or maybe you just have to be on even level with him to win (MC took two games of him and has beaten him several times before). Did you even read anything I said? I said they were too dumb to defend allins which is true. Look at how they defended gateway all-ins in the past and lost all the time, compared to how they almost never lose to them now. Compare how people were recently losing to immortal/sentry all-in and then the better players began to figure out how the engage, and then it made it easier to hold. So yes, they were too "dumb" to defend all-ins, that seriously just can't be argued if you watch this game. Provide proof that Stephano outclassed his opponents instead of taking advantage of zerg being favored at the moment. Can you? No, there is no objective way to prove that he had better timings, map awareness, build orders, etc. or that his build is just a panacea. And I can't prove he didn't outclass his opponents. But we can look at every other game in the state of PvZ and how zerg always seems to magically have an advantage, then it becomes likely that that "outclassing" is because when both play a standard game the zerg has the advantage---since you kind of see them winning everything, zergs that were considered nobodies in the past taking games off great players of both protoss and terran, etc. Yeah, we look at those PvZs and see a "magical advantage" of 50% winrate. I don't care what advantages you see, but apparently the game is about winning and if those advantages of zerg only lead to 50:50 winrate, they are not advantages in a sense of "overall better off", but just "more absolute income" or "more absolute supply", yet if Protoss combats zerg with mass T2 (blink, immortals) and the occasional Stargate or T3 Archon or Colossus units and zergs only play roaches against it, then Protoss has tech advantages they seem to emphasize on and supplyefficiency advantages that they can emphasize on and it seems to balance out. Yes, that magical 50-50 winrate has lead to 24 zerg tournament wins to 8 protoss wins and 3 terran wins, 40 zerg final appearances to 20 protoss and 10 terran, and 64-49-26 semifinals. The problem with this is that Zergs have been winning a lot outside of Korea for a very long time now. Zerg won more minor tournaments in Europe in 2011 than Terran, even during the GomTvT days. Basically, balance the game for foreigners and have GomTvT as a side effect, or somewhat balance it for Code S and have Zerg and to a lesser extent Protoss winning almost everything else if there are no Code S Terrans around. It's a more fundamental game design problem, in my opinion. Zerg units/unit compositions need to be more difficult to control, but more rewarding if controlled well, generally speaking. I'm not sure if HotS sufficiently addresses that.
foreign tournaments doesn't mean foreign players.
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On July 18 2012 12:55 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Nourek wrote:On July 18 2012 12:21 Heavenlee wrote:On July 18 2012 12:17 Big J wrote:On July 18 2012 10:57 Heavenlee wrote:On July 18 2012 10:50 Big J wrote:On July 18 2012 09:11 Heavenlee wrote:On July 18 2012 08:59 wcr.4fun wrote:On July 18 2012 08:55 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2012 08:51 wcr.4fun wrote:
[quote]
No; try taking a third against 3 gate expand. That'd be kinda dumb though, there's no need for the superfast 3rd which is a response to an FFE to pump out your economy when you're racing a relatively uneconomic opener I understand that. He was saying 'zergs can take third regardless what P is doing', but that's not true at all. I understand 3 gate expand came before 1 gate expand, but I never played during the time that 1 gate expand was popular so can't comment on that. But I know for sure that zergs weren't taking thirds versus 3 gate expand. I just had an issue with saying 'Z can take third regardless of what P is doing.' We see Stephano do the same opener every time---a surge of lings and maybe a few roaches for map control, then he is completely safe to do whatever he wants and god forbid the toss attempts to take a quick third or apply any light pressure. He is either safe to expand, drone, tech, or all three at once, while maintaining the possibility of denying the protoss third while going up to four base. We even see zergs have learned to be greedier than before in some cases, such as Ret v Puzzle on Cloud Kingdom where he held off a two base all-in while taking his fourth instead of a macro hatch, and teching up to infestors. Some toss are now doing 1 gate expands because zergs don't recall how to handle them, but after a couple games of practice and looking back a bit they will---make speed on your zerglings and delay your third and prevent them from ever taking an expansion. Again, the zerg will have an economic advantage if they play properly. Either way the zerg will have an economic advantage going into the midgame. Just because in the past zergs suicided a ton, didn't understand timings or scouting patterns, etc. and made the win ratio even or sometimes even toss favored when a new all-in came out, does not make them currently balanced. Yeah, we get it. Zerg players are too dumb to defend allins and it's not Stephano outclassing his opponents at NASL, but rather just abusing Zerg imbaness. When 2months ago all the whine was about Terrans "not having a chance in TvP" and "having to rely on allins and drops", it was just Protoss players being too dumb to defend them. And yeah, Stephano did the same opener in the NASL finals against Alicia (who btw played horrible). Guess what... MC won two GSL's by basically using 1 build for PvT and PvZ (6gate), and one build for PvP (4gate). Maybe the way stephano does is not really figuered out yet? Or maybe you just have to be on even level with him to win (MC took two games of him and has beaten him several times before). Did you even read anything I said? I said they were too dumb to defend allins which is true. Look at how they defended gateway all-ins in the past and lost all the time, compared to how they almost never lose to them now. Compare how people were recently losing to immortal/sentry all-in and then the better players began to figure out how the engage, and then it made it easier to hold. So yes, they were too "dumb" to defend all-ins, that seriously just can't be argued if you watch this game. Provide proof that Stephano outclassed his opponents instead of taking advantage of zerg being favored at the moment. Can you? No, there is no objective way to prove that he had better timings, map awareness, build orders, etc. or that his build is just a panacea. And I can't prove he didn't outclass his opponents. But we can look at every other game in the state of PvZ and how zerg always seems to magically have an advantage, then it becomes likely that that "outclassing" is because when both play a standard game the zerg has the advantage---since you kind of see them winning everything, zergs that were considered nobodies in the past taking games off great players of both protoss and terran, etc. Yeah, we look at those PvZs and see a "magical advantage" of 50% winrate. I don't care what advantages you see, but apparently the game is about winning and if those advantages of zerg only lead to 50:50 winrate, they are not advantages in a sense of "overall better off", but just "more absolute income" or "more absolute supply", yet if Protoss combats zerg with mass T2 (blink, immortals) and the occasional Stargate or T3 Archon or Colossus units and zergs only play roaches against it, then Protoss has tech advantages they seem to emphasize on and supplyefficiency advantages that they can emphasize on and it seems to balance out. Yes, that magical 50-50 winrate has lead to 24 zerg tournament wins to 8 protoss wins and 3 terran wins, 40 zerg final appearances to 20 protoss and 10 terran, and 64-49-26 semifinals. The problem with this is that Zergs have been winning a lot outside of Korea for a very long time now. Zerg won more minor tournaments in Europe in 2011 than Terran, even during the GomTvT days. Basically, balance the game for foreigners and have GomTvT as a side effect, or somewhat balance it for Code S and have Zerg and to a lesser extent Protoss winning almost everything else if there are no Code S Terrans around. It's a more fundamental game design problem, in my opinion. Zerg units/unit compositions need to be more difficult to control, but more rewarding if controlled well, generally speaking. I'm not sure if HotS sufficiently addresses that. foreign tournaments doesn't mean foreign players.
Are you trying to not understand my point?
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On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. Show nested quote +20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player.
I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time.
I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders.
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On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders.
Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now.
I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level.
I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work.
Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you.
Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it.
The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders.
Stephano's style is so robust, and allows him to do really intense pressure that can kill a Protoss outright, while teching up pretty quickly and getting a sick economy to boot.
There's a reason that Protoss players mix things up massively in BoX series, they can't afford to play in a predictable fashion because it's easily exploitable by Zergs ability to produce units in big waves and techswitch. Stephano is one of THE most predictable players in the world, but his opening is pretty much rock solid in every single department.
I admire the guy's skill and amazing game understanding, indeed he may be a one off in terms of his ZvP dominance. However if other Zergs start to display such dominance in the matchup (DRG is pretty fearsome in it too), I do think some kind of tweaking may be necessary
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On July 18 2012 12:40 Reborn8u wrote:
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
It's funny how protoss' on this forum still think that hydras are great against gateway-units. It just shows the difference between protoss' who only hang around the balance-whine threads of teamliquid and battenet, making blatant, mindless, horrible points about balance of the game they don't even play above diamond level, and between protoss' who actually spend time playing this game, trying to be better by playing more and better, learning the game, instead of wasting all of their time to whine.
Hydras are god-awful against every unit of the terran or protoss, except the sentry. The only unit which hydra wins supply or cost-effektive against the other races is the sentry. Theres a reason why NO ONE ever makes any hydras ever, and thats because they are god-awful against EVERYTHING. The only reason they might hold protoss air-pushes is that it can be mass-produced from the better economy of the Zergs, making it annihiliate the low-econ protoss air all-in.
Also, to other matters, why isn't the gateway-expand viable? Because it was tested for the first year? Yeah, seems legit. During the first year of the game, zergs went ROACH-HYDRA against protoss, doing lingbling muta against terran. The game has almost completely changed, but protoss' still think that gateway-expand is god-horrible.
There have been points made about the queen not being so imba, but the maps. The greater rush-distance makes terran's and toss' harass run greater ways, and those precious seconds will make the zerg possible to hold the harass easily, with no losses. This also works against roach-ling rushes against the gateway-expand, which gives you way greater ability to harass the zerg with warpgate units, which have almost zero travel-time.
The other point made against gateway-expand is that it sets you behind economically. Waitwaitwait, let's just hold it here for a sec. Forge fast expand doesn't? It gives the Zerg absolutely free reign over the map, over his expansions, over his economy, for the first five minutes of the game, to the point that Zerg can get 3 fully saturated bases AND a 200/200 army of roachling at the moment protoss' usually take their third expansion. This ISN'T letting the zerg ahead in economy? Are you protoss' fucking retarded?
And then theres Naniwa. Everyone can agree that Naniwa is way inferior player than DRG, but still Naniwa lost a close series against DRG in a recent GSL code S-game. How? Gateway-expand in the other game which he took, DRG made hydras in the second. Co-incidence?
Like someone already said, if zerg doesn't dronescout and doesn't know is it FFE or gateway-expand he can't take his 3rd instead of his natural so freely, because if he does so, he gives you a greater ability to all-in him from 1-2 bases because the walkingdistance from his main to his third is so long, and at least you can try to make the zealot/stalker/stalker poke and probably kill the queen and some drones, or atleast force many lings from the zerg, without taking any damage yourself except propably losing the zealot.
I just think that protoss' don't make the gateway-expand and try to do the stalker/zealot poke, because it's way, way, way, way easier to just make FFE and blindly sit in your base for the first ten minutes of the game, until moving out with the sentry/immortal all-in, taking freewins against roach-players.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders.
Teambreezy, why did you make a new account, solely for the reason of balance-whine? Whats the problem with your main account? Why don't you want to show us your real internet-face?
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On July 18 2012 13:17 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano's style is so robust, and allows him to do really intense pressure that can kill a Protoss outright, while teching up pretty quickly and getting a sick economy to boot. There's a reason that Protoss players mix things up massively in BoX series, they can't afford to play in a predictable fashion because it's easily exploitable by Zergs ability to produce units in big waves and techswitch. Stephano is one of THE most predictable players in the world, but his opening is pretty much rock solid in every single department. I admire the guy's skill and amazing game understanding, indeed he may be a one off in terms of his ZvP dominance. However if other Zergs start to display such dominance in the matchup (DRG is pretty fearsome in it too), I do think some kind of tweaking may be necessary
If you do the roach-ling pressure, you don't get fast tech. If you get fast tech, you don't do roach-ling pressure. Also, I think the 'stephano is predictable' is somewhat overdone. I don't think MC expected mutas 
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On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player.
LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL
It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet?
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On July 18 2012 13:23 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:17 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano's style is so robust, and allows him to do really intense pressure that can kill a Protoss outright, while teching up pretty quickly and getting a sick economy to boot. There's a reason that Protoss players mix things up massively in BoX series, they can't afford to play in a predictable fashion because it's easily exploitable by Zergs ability to produce units in big waves and techswitch. Stephano is one of THE most predictable players in the world, but his opening is pretty much rock solid in every single department. I admire the guy's skill and amazing game understanding, indeed he may be a one off in terms of his ZvP dominance. However if other Zergs start to display such dominance in the matchup (DRG is pretty fearsome in it too), I do think some kind of tweaking may be necessary If you do the roach-ling pressure, you don't get fast tech. If you get fast tech, you don't do roach-ling pressure. Also, I think the 'stephano is predictable' is somewhat overdone. I don't think MC expected mutas
Mana and SaSe exploited his predictability, and MC was taken by surprise precisely because Stephano is so predictable. I've only ever seen Stephano go Mutas once before, against Hero I think in maybe IPL Fight Club
Yeah obviously if he goes straight for the 200 food roach push he'll be delaying tech, but he's not doing just that he's still able to get the necessary tech he needs pretty fast, while having the potential to keep the Protoss opponent in his base with the fear of such aggression.
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On July 18 2012 13:28 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:23 m0ck wrote:On July 18 2012 13:17 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano's style is so robust, and allows him to do really intense pressure that can kill a Protoss outright, while teching up pretty quickly and getting a sick economy to boot. There's a reason that Protoss players mix things up massively in BoX series, they can't afford to play in a predictable fashion because it's easily exploitable by Zergs ability to produce units in big waves and techswitch. Stephano is one of THE most predictable players in the world, but his opening is pretty much rock solid in every single department. I admire the guy's skill and amazing game understanding, indeed he may be a one off in terms of his ZvP dominance. However if other Zergs start to display such dominance in the matchup (DRG is pretty fearsome in it too), I do think some kind of tweaking may be necessary If you do the roach-ling pressure, you don't get fast tech. If you get fast tech, you don't do roach-ling pressure. Also, I think the 'stephano is predictable' is somewhat overdone. I don't think MC expected mutas Mana and SaSe exploited his predictability, and MC was taken by surprise precisely because Stephano is so predictable. I've only ever seen Stephano go Mutas once before, against Hero I think in maybe IPL Fight Club Yeah obviously if he goes straight for the 200 food roach push he'll be delaying tech, but he's not doing just that he's still able to get the necessary tech he needs pretty fast, while having the potential to keep the Protoss opponent in his base with the fear of such aggression.
Yeah, I don't disagree that stephano is a player who likes a standard style of play (and can be predictable to a fault), but then let me say it like this: He also understands how to use his opponents expectations against them (and yeah you're right, the muta-play is super rare - he used to do it with two spires and mass upgrades but it's been a while since I've seen it)
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On July 18 2012 13:21 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:40 Reborn8u wrote:
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
It's funny how protoss' on this forum still think that hydras are great against gateway-units. It just shows the difference between protoss' who only hang around the balance-whine threads of teamliquid and battenet, making blatant, mindless, horrible points about balance of the game they don't even play above diamond level, and between protoss' who actually spend time playing this game, trying to be better by playing more and better, learning the game, instead of wasting all of their time to whine. Hydras are god-awful against every unit of the terran or protoss, except the sentry. The only unit which hydra wins supply or cost-effektive against the other races is the sentry. Theres a reason why NO ONE ever makes any hydras ever, and thats because they are god-awful against EVERYTHING. The only reason they might hold protoss air-pushes is that it can be mass-produced from the better economy of the Zergs, making it annihiliate the low-econ protoss air all-in. Also, to other matters, why isn't the gateway-expand viable? Because it was tested for the first year? Yeah, seems legit. During the first year of the game, zergs went ROACH-HYDRA against protoss, doing lingbling muta against terran. The game has almost completely changed, but protoss' still think that gateway-expand is god-horrible. There have been points made about the queen not being so imba, but the maps. The greater rush-distance makes terran's and toss' harass run greater ways, and those precious seconds will make the zerg possible to hold the harass easily, with no losses. This also works against roach-ling rushes against the gateway-expand, which gives you way greater ability to harass the zerg with warpgate units, which have almost zero travel-time. The other point made against gateway-expand is that it sets you behind economically. Waitwaitwait, let's just hold it here for a sec. Forge fast expand doesn't? It gives the Zerg absolutely free reign over the map, over his expansions, over his economy, for the first five minutes of the game, to the point that Zerg can get 3 fully saturated bases AND a 200/200 army of roachling at the moment protoss' usually take their third expansion. This ISN'T letting the zerg ahead in economy? Are you protoss' fucking retarded? And then theres Naniwa. Everyone can agree that Naniwa is way inferior player than DRG, but still Naniwa lost a close series against DRG in a recent GSL code S-game. How? Gateway-expand in the other game which he took, DRG made hydras in the second. Co-incidence? Like someone already said, if zerg doesn't dronescout and doesn't know is it FFE or gateway-expand he can't take his 3rd instead of his natural so freely, because if he does so, he gives you a greater ability to all-in him from 1-2 bases because the walkingdistance from his main to his third is so long, and at least you can try to make the zealot/stalker/stalker poke and probably kill the queen and some drones, or atleast force many lings from the zerg, without taking any damage yourself except propably losing the zealot. I just think that protoss' don't make the gateway-expand and try to do the stalker/zealot poke, because it's way, way, way, way easier to just make FFE and blindly sit in your base for the first ten minutes of the game, until moving out with the sentry/immortal all-in, taking freewins against roach-players. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Teambreezy, why did you make a new account, solely for the reason of balance-whine? Whats the problem with your main account? Why don't you want to show us your real internet-face?
Drone scout?? pvz? I haven't seen a zerg scout with a drone since the patch. THe new overlords already see everything. Your first lord is sent to the protoss' expo as soon as the game starts so you already know it's a FFE or not. You're second lord will be sent to the third. Have you even watched a game since the patch?
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On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet?
Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance.
Yeah I'd like to see this too actually, been long wondering about the race breakdowns when it comes to actual tournament victories
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EPT
