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On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance.
http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.png
credit to dv0rakftw
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On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. Show nested quote +20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. PS : Last time Stephano played against MMA or MKP he got destroyed(1.4.3.2 doesnt affect at all his build) , and his record against MC are somewhat unstable if not favoring MC. Saying that he can only lose to ZvZ is pretty wrong
Makes me laugh people talking about Stephano, DRG is the guy who's going to (and already is) winning everything.
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On July 18 2012 13:36 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:21 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 12:40 Reborn8u wrote:
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
It's funny how protoss' on this forum still think that hydras are great against gateway-units. It just shows the difference between protoss' who only hang around the balance-whine threads of teamliquid and battenet, making blatant, mindless, horrible points about balance of the game they don't even play above diamond level, and between protoss' who actually spend time playing this game, trying to be better by playing more and better, learning the game, instead of wasting all of their time to whine. Hydras are god-awful against every unit of the terran or protoss, except the sentry. The only unit which hydra wins supply or cost-effektive against the other races is the sentry. Theres a reason why NO ONE ever makes any hydras ever, and thats because they are god-awful against EVERYTHING. The only reason they might hold protoss air-pushes is that it can be mass-produced from the better economy of the Zergs, making it annihiliate the low-econ protoss air all-in. Also, to other matters, why isn't the gateway-expand viable? Because it was tested for the first year? Yeah, seems legit. During the first year of the game, zergs went ROACH-HYDRA against protoss, doing lingbling muta against terran. The game has almost completely changed, but protoss' still think that gateway-expand is god-horrible. There have been points made about the queen not being so imba, but the maps. The greater rush-distance makes terran's and toss' harass run greater ways, and those precious seconds will make the zerg possible to hold the harass easily, with no losses. This also works against roach-ling rushes against the gateway-expand, which gives you way greater ability to harass the zerg with warpgate units, which have almost zero travel-time. The other point made against gateway-expand is that it sets you behind economically. Waitwaitwait, let's just hold it here for a sec. Forge fast expand doesn't? It gives the Zerg absolutely free reign over the map, over his expansions, over his economy, for the first five minutes of the game, to the point that Zerg can get 3 fully saturated bases AND a 200/200 army of roachling at the moment protoss' usually take their third expansion. This ISN'T letting the zerg ahead in economy? Are you protoss' fucking retarded? And then theres Naniwa. Everyone can agree that Naniwa is way inferior player than DRG, but still Naniwa lost a close series against DRG in a recent GSL code S-game. How? Gateway-expand in the other game which he took, DRG made hydras in the second. Co-incidence? Like someone already said, if zerg doesn't dronescout and doesn't know is it FFE or gateway-expand he can't take his 3rd instead of his natural so freely, because if he does so, he gives you a greater ability to all-in him from 1-2 bases because the walkingdistance from his main to his third is so long, and at least you can try to make the zealot/stalker/stalker poke and probably kill the queen and some drones, or atleast force many lings from the zerg, without taking any damage yourself except propably losing the zealot. I just think that protoss' don't make the gateway-expand and try to do the stalker/zealot poke, because it's way, way, way, way easier to just make FFE and blindly sit in your base for the first ten minutes of the game, until moving out with the sentry/immortal all-in, taking freewins against roach-players. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Teambreezy, why did you make a new account, solely for the reason of balance-whine? Whats the problem with your main account? Why don't you want to show us your real internet-face? Drone scout?? pvz? I haven't seen a zerg scout with a drone since the patch. THe new overlords already see everything. Your first lord is sent to the protoss' expo as soon as the game starts so you already know it's a FFE or not. You're second lord will be sent to the third. Have you even watched a game since the patch?
You clearly try to show yourself as a person who has watched the game for the whole duration of it's existence, and even more broodwar before that, and still you make just plain retarded one-word answers for every sentence the other speaker makes. Now I understand clearly, why you try to hide behind this second account, because you want to be plain retarded sometimes, while still maintaining the old wiseguy- performance on the first account.
Does it grind your gears, being so bad at reading long and thought out- texts, that you just read some random bullshit from between the lines and make then a stupid one sentence-answer for the wall of text?
If this thread is for conversation about balance, not mindless whine about the balance, please mods, for the sake of this thread, ban this guy. He creates bad blood and makes just plain stupid and retarded anwsers to everyone who tries to reason with him, making his conversation-partner mad about him and making him maybe even make bad statements, trying to then cast him in a bad light.
Also, teambreezy, you need to admit it. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, everyone, they are absolute SHIT at this game compared to the likes of Stephano, MVP, MC. They might have been the emperors of their own races, the emperors of thousand nerds sitting in their basement like you, but now, they are bad. They will get better and maybe even win some starcraft 2-tournaments, but until then, they are absolute garbage.
User was warned for this post
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On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw
no comparison numbers from before the patch?
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Don't have the link but i saw it on inside the game. They were talking about it. I honestly don't care about zerg's winning, but come on. When there is 24 Zergs that are winning tournaments and only 3 Terrans that won a tourney in the same time period, Come on. And to top it off, all the major tournaments and big tournaments, Terran hasn't won anything. I know i only got 80 percent in Statistics, but with the sample size since the patch, there's significant evidence that winnning a tournament depends on the race you pick in Starcraft 2.
Just want a better game. I just hope somoene close to blizzard is reading this page. There are some good points here. I play all races, but i'm debating on switching to Zerg. Instead of complaining, i'm just gonna join the dark side.
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On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw
Balance at the highest level is not the same as balance at lower levels. There is no reason to think that zerg is imbalanced based on Korean results. It's a problem. Who do we balance for? The best or the rest?
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Remember on SOTG where they are reluctant to discuss TvZ balance? talk about not actually understanding the state of the game
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On July 18 2012 13:48 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:36 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:21 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 12:40 Reborn8u wrote:
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
It's funny how protoss' on this forum still think that hydras are great against gateway-units. It just shows the difference between protoss' who only hang around the balance-whine threads of teamliquid and battenet, making blatant, mindless, horrible points about balance of the game they don't even play above diamond level, and between protoss' who actually spend time playing this game, trying to be better by playing more and better, learning the game, instead of wasting all of their time to whine. Hydras are god-awful against every unit of the terran or protoss, except the sentry. The only unit which hydra wins supply or cost-effektive against the other races is the sentry. Theres a reason why NO ONE ever makes any hydras ever, and thats because they are god-awful against EVERYTHING. The only reason they might hold protoss air-pushes is that it can be mass-produced from the better economy of the Zergs, making it annihiliate the low-econ protoss air all-in. Also, to other matters, why isn't the gateway-expand viable? Because it was tested for the first year? Yeah, seems legit. During the first year of the game, zergs went ROACH-HYDRA against protoss, doing lingbling muta against terran. The game has almost completely changed, but protoss' still think that gateway-expand is god-horrible. There have been points made about the queen not being so imba, but the maps. The greater rush-distance makes terran's and toss' harass run greater ways, and those precious seconds will make the zerg possible to hold the harass easily, with no losses. This also works against roach-ling rushes against the gateway-expand, which gives you way greater ability to harass the zerg with warpgate units, which have almost zero travel-time. The other point made against gateway-expand is that it sets you behind economically. Waitwaitwait, let's just hold it here for a sec. Forge fast expand doesn't? It gives the Zerg absolutely free reign over the map, over his expansions, over his economy, for the first five minutes of the game, to the point that Zerg can get 3 fully saturated bases AND a 200/200 army of roachling at the moment protoss' usually take their third expansion. This ISN'T letting the zerg ahead in economy? Are you protoss' fucking retarded? And then theres Naniwa. Everyone can agree that Naniwa is way inferior player than DRG, but still Naniwa lost a close series against DRG in a recent GSL code S-game. How? Gateway-expand in the other game which he took, DRG made hydras in the second. Co-incidence? Like someone already said, if zerg doesn't dronescout and doesn't know is it FFE or gateway-expand he can't take his 3rd instead of his natural so freely, because if he does so, he gives you a greater ability to all-in him from 1-2 bases because the walkingdistance from his main to his third is so long, and at least you can try to make the zealot/stalker/stalker poke and probably kill the queen and some drones, or atleast force many lings from the zerg, without taking any damage yourself except propably losing the zealot. I just think that protoss' don't make the gateway-expand and try to do the stalker/zealot poke, because it's way, way, way, way easier to just make FFE and blindly sit in your base for the first ten minutes of the game, until moving out with the sentry/immortal all-in, taking freewins against roach-players. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Teambreezy, why did you make a new account, solely for the reason of balance-whine? Whats the problem with your main account? Why don't you want to show us your real internet-face? Drone scout?? pvz? I haven't seen a zerg scout with a drone since the patch. THe new overlords already see everything. Your first lord is sent to the protoss' expo as soon as the game starts so you already know it's a FFE or not. You're second lord will be sent to the third. Have you even watched a game since the patch? You clearly try to show yourself as a person who has watched the game for the whole duration of it's existence, and even more broodwar before that, and still you make just plain retarded one-word answers for every sentence the other speaker makes. Now I understand clearly, why you try to hide behind this second account, because you want to be plain retarded sometimes, while still maintaining the old wiseguy- performance on the first account. Does it grind your gears, being so bad at reading long and thought out- texts, that you just read some random bullshit from between the lines and make then a stupid one sentence-answer for the wall of text? If this thread is for conversation about balance, not mindless whine about the balance, please mods, for the sake of this thread, ban this guy. He creates bad blood and makes just plain stupid and retarded anwsers to everyone who tries to reason with him, making his conversation-partner mad about him and making him maybe even make bad statements, trying to then cast him in a bad light. Also, teambreezy, you need to admit it. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, everyone, they are absolute SHIT at this game compared to the likes of Stephano, MVP, MC. They might have been the emperors of their own races, the emperors of thousand nerds sitting in their basement like you, but now, they are bad. They will get better and maybe even win some starcraft 2-tournaments, but until then, they are absolute garbage.
Your long post was pretty uniformly bad, though. Here's a fun game: you go through it and try to pick out the bad parts and I'll tell you 'warmer' or 'colder' on if you're picking them right.
User was warned for this post
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On July 18 2012 14:00 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:48 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 13:36 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:21 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 12:40 Reborn8u wrote:
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
It's funny how protoss' on this forum still think that hydras are great against gateway-units. It just shows the difference between protoss' who only hang around the balance-whine threads of teamliquid and battenet, making blatant, mindless, horrible points about balance of the game they don't even play above diamond level, and between protoss' who actually spend time playing this game, trying to be better by playing more and better, learning the game, instead of wasting all of their time to whine. Hydras are god-awful against every unit of the terran or protoss, except the sentry. The only unit which hydra wins supply or cost-effektive against the other races is the sentry. Theres a reason why NO ONE ever makes any hydras ever, and thats because they are god-awful against EVERYTHING. The only reason they might hold protoss air-pushes is that it can be mass-produced from the better economy of the Zergs, making it annihiliate the low-econ protoss air all-in. Also, to other matters, why isn't the gateway-expand viable? Because it was tested for the first year? Yeah, seems legit. During the first year of the game, zergs went ROACH-HYDRA against protoss, doing lingbling muta against terran. The game has almost completely changed, but protoss' still think that gateway-expand is god-horrible. There have been points made about the queen not being so imba, but the maps. The greater rush-distance makes terran's and toss' harass run greater ways, and those precious seconds will make the zerg possible to hold the harass easily, with no losses. This also works against roach-ling rushes against the gateway-expand, which gives you way greater ability to harass the zerg with warpgate units, which have almost zero travel-time. The other point made against gateway-expand is that it sets you behind economically. Waitwaitwait, let's just hold it here for a sec. Forge fast expand doesn't? It gives the Zerg absolutely free reign over the map, over his expansions, over his economy, for the first five minutes of the game, to the point that Zerg can get 3 fully saturated bases AND a 200/200 army of roachling at the moment protoss' usually take their third expansion. This ISN'T letting the zerg ahead in economy? Are you protoss' fucking retarded? And then theres Naniwa. Everyone can agree that Naniwa is way inferior player than DRG, but still Naniwa lost a close series against DRG in a recent GSL code S-game. How? Gateway-expand in the other game which he took, DRG made hydras in the second. Co-incidence? Like someone already said, if zerg doesn't dronescout and doesn't know is it FFE or gateway-expand he can't take his 3rd instead of his natural so freely, because if he does so, he gives you a greater ability to all-in him from 1-2 bases because the walkingdistance from his main to his third is so long, and at least you can try to make the zealot/stalker/stalker poke and probably kill the queen and some drones, or atleast force many lings from the zerg, without taking any damage yourself except propably losing the zealot. I just think that protoss' don't make the gateway-expand and try to do the stalker/zealot poke, because it's way, way, way, way easier to just make FFE and blindly sit in your base for the first ten minutes of the game, until moving out with the sentry/immortal all-in, taking freewins against roach-players. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Teambreezy, why did you make a new account, solely for the reason of balance-whine? Whats the problem with your main account? Why don't you want to show us your real internet-face? Drone scout?? pvz? I haven't seen a zerg scout with a drone since the patch. THe new overlords already see everything. Your first lord is sent to the protoss' expo as soon as the game starts so you already know it's a FFE or not. You're second lord will be sent to the third. Have you even watched a game since the patch? You clearly try to show yourself as a person who has watched the game for the whole duration of it's existence, and even more broodwar before that, and still you make just plain retarded one-word answers for every sentence the other speaker makes. Now I understand clearly, why you try to hide behind this second account, because you want to be plain retarded sometimes, while still maintaining the old wiseguy- performance on the first account. Does it grind your gears, being so bad at reading long and thought out- texts, that you just read some random bullshit from between the lines and make then a stupid one sentence-answer for the wall of text? If this thread is for conversation about balance, not mindless whine about the balance, please mods, for the sake of this thread, ban this guy. He creates bad blood and makes just plain stupid and retarded anwsers to everyone who tries to reason with him, making his conversation-partner mad about him and making him maybe even make bad statements, trying to then cast him in a bad light. Also, teambreezy, you need to admit it. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, everyone, they are absolute SHIT at this game compared to the likes of Stephano, MVP, MC. They might have been the emperors of their own races, the emperors of thousand nerds sitting in their basement like you, but now, they are bad. They will get better and maybe even win some starcraft 2-tournaments, but until then, they are absolute garbage. Your long post was pretty uniformly bad, though. Here's a fun game: you go through it and try to pick out the bad parts and I'll tell you 'warmer' or 'colder' on if you're picking them right.
Well then, tell me the bad points of my post as you said you are going to, instead of telling me about some game which is not Starcraft.
Also, have you watched this thread at all, followed any of Teambreezys post? They are at least as horrible as mine, and I really would like to think that they're even more horrible than mine. For the last 3 posts or so, he has only tried to show his superiority compared to the other dude, and then cried at me when I made a big, bad post, which he didn't agree to. If everyone would do same as him, this thread would have been closed during the first few pages, as soon as an admin would have gotten to read this. The quality of his posts, and also some others which I am not going to name here, have been so horrible, that I am surprised that they haven't gotten a warning at least. It just shows that the admins have somewhat given upon this thread, and just stopped adminstrating it.
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On July 18 2012 13:52 Die4Ever wrote:
no comparison numbers from before the patch?
Someone had some numbers a few pages back. Certainly Terrans had more wins than the other races and top 4 results weren't balanced (though not as bad as Terran has it now) but the result of that was buffs for other races and nerfs for Terran. I think eliminating early aggression for Terrans in TvZ makes the game less fun to watch but if they just make BCs more viable I'll be glad to give it another month or two of meta.
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On July 18 2012 13:48 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:36 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:21 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 12:40 Reborn8u wrote:
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
It's funny how protoss' on this forum still think that hydras are great against gateway-units. It just shows the difference between protoss' who only hang around the balance-whine threads of teamliquid and battenet, making blatant, mindless, horrible points about balance of the game they don't even play above diamond level, and between protoss' who actually spend time playing this game, trying to be better by playing more and better, learning the game, instead of wasting all of their time to whine. Hydras are god-awful against every unit of the terran or protoss, except the sentry. The only unit which hydra wins supply or cost-effektive against the other races is the sentry. Theres a reason why NO ONE ever makes any hydras ever, and thats because they are god-awful against EVERYTHING. The only reason they might hold protoss air-pushes is that it can be mass-produced from the better economy of the Zergs, making it annihiliate the low-econ protoss air all-in. Also, to other matters, why isn't the gateway-expand viable? Because it was tested for the first year? Yeah, seems legit. During the first year of the game, zergs went ROACH-HYDRA against protoss, doing lingbling muta against terran. The game has almost completely changed, but protoss' still think that gateway-expand is god-horrible. There have been points made about the queen not being so imba, but the maps. The greater rush-distance makes terran's and toss' harass run greater ways, and those precious seconds will make the zerg possible to hold the harass easily, with no losses. This also works against roach-ling rushes against the gateway-expand, which gives you way greater ability to harass the zerg with warpgate units, which have almost zero travel-time. The other point made against gateway-expand is that it sets you behind economically. Waitwaitwait, let's just hold it here for a sec. Forge fast expand doesn't? It gives the Zerg absolutely free reign over the map, over his expansions, over his economy, for the first five minutes of the game, to the point that Zerg can get 3 fully saturated bases AND a 200/200 army of roachling at the moment protoss' usually take their third expansion. This ISN'T letting the zerg ahead in economy? Are you protoss' fucking retarded? And then theres Naniwa. Everyone can agree that Naniwa is way inferior player than DRG, but still Naniwa lost a close series against DRG in a recent GSL code S-game. How? Gateway-expand in the other game which he took, DRG made hydras in the second. Co-incidence? Like someone already said, if zerg doesn't dronescout and doesn't know is it FFE or gateway-expand he can't take his 3rd instead of his natural so freely, because if he does so, he gives you a greater ability to all-in him from 1-2 bases because the walkingdistance from his main to his third is so long, and at least you can try to make the zealot/stalker/stalker poke and probably kill the queen and some drones, or atleast force many lings from the zerg, without taking any damage yourself except propably losing the zealot. I just think that protoss' don't make the gateway-expand and try to do the stalker/zealot poke, because it's way, way, way, way easier to just make FFE and blindly sit in your base for the first ten minutes of the game, until moving out with the sentry/immortal all-in, taking freewins against roach-players. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Teambreezy, why did you make a new account, solely for the reason of balance-whine? Whats the problem with your main account? Why don't you want to show us your real internet-face? Drone scout?? pvz? I haven't seen a zerg scout with a drone since the patch. THe new overlords already see everything. Your first lord is sent to the protoss' expo as soon as the game starts so you already know it's a FFE or not. You're second lord will be sent to the third. Have you even watched a game since the patch? You clearly try to show yourself as a person who has watched the game for the whole duration of it's existence, and even more broodwar before that, and still you make just plain retarded one-word answers for every sentence the other speaker makes. Now I understand clearly, why you try to hide behind this second account, because you want to be plain retarded sometimes, while still maintaining the old wiseguy- performance on the first account. Does it grind your gears, being so bad at reading long and thought out- texts, that you just read some random bullshit from between the lines and make then a stupid one sentence-answer for the wall of text? If this thread is for conversation about balance, not mindless whine about the balance, please mods, for the sake of this thread, ban this guy. He creates bad blood and makes just plain stupid and retarded anwsers to everyone who tries to reason with him, making his conversation-partner mad about him and making him maybe even make bad statements, trying to then cast him in a bad light. Also, teambreezy, you need to admit it. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, everyone, they are absolute SHIT at this game compared to the likes of Stephano, MVP, MC. They might have been the emperors of their own races, the emperors of thousand nerds sitting in their basement like you, but now, they are bad. They will get better and maybe even win some starcraft 2-tournaments, but until then, they are absolute garbage.
What did i do?? You are trying to ban me because arguing your point and you got nothing to say. I never bashed anyone.
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When that random guy said Zerg is op on SOTH IdrA raged, now we see that zerg dominate. Sure there are some great Z players but there are also some great T players who haven't won anything important for a while now.
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On July 18 2012 14:29 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:48 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 13:36 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:21 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 12:40 Reborn8u wrote:
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
It's funny how protoss' on this forum still think that hydras are great against gateway-units. It just shows the difference between protoss' who only hang around the balance-whine threads of teamliquid and battenet, making blatant, mindless, horrible points about balance of the game they don't even play above diamond level, and between protoss' who actually spend time playing this game, trying to be better by playing more and better, learning the game, instead of wasting all of their time to whine. Hydras are god-awful against every unit of the terran or protoss, except the sentry. The only unit which hydra wins supply or cost-effektive against the other races is the sentry. Theres a reason why NO ONE ever makes any hydras ever, and thats because they are god-awful against EVERYTHING. The only reason they might hold protoss air-pushes is that it can be mass-produced from the better economy of the Zergs, making it annihiliate the low-econ protoss air all-in. Also, to other matters, why isn't the gateway-expand viable? Because it was tested for the first year? Yeah, seems legit. During the first year of the game, zergs went ROACH-HYDRA against protoss, doing lingbling muta against terran. The game has almost completely changed, but protoss' still think that gateway-expand is god-horrible. There have been points made about the queen not being so imba, but the maps. The greater rush-distance makes terran's and toss' harass run greater ways, and those precious seconds will make the zerg possible to hold the harass easily, with no losses. This also works against roach-ling rushes against the gateway-expand, which gives you way greater ability to harass the zerg with warpgate units, which have almost zero travel-time. The other point made against gateway-expand is that it sets you behind economically. Waitwaitwait, let's just hold it here for a sec. Forge fast expand doesn't? It gives the Zerg absolutely free reign over the map, over his expansions, over his economy, for the first five minutes of the game, to the point that Zerg can get 3 fully saturated bases AND a 200/200 army of roachling at the moment protoss' usually take their third expansion. This ISN'T letting the zerg ahead in economy? Are you protoss' fucking retarded? And then theres Naniwa. Everyone can agree that Naniwa is way inferior player than DRG, but still Naniwa lost a close series against DRG in a recent GSL code S-game. How? Gateway-expand in the other game which he took, DRG made hydras in the second. Co-incidence? Like someone already said, if zerg doesn't dronescout and doesn't know is it FFE or gateway-expand he can't take his 3rd instead of his natural so freely, because if he does so, he gives you a greater ability to all-in him from 1-2 bases because the walkingdistance from his main to his third is so long, and at least you can try to make the zealot/stalker/stalker poke and probably kill the queen and some drones, or atleast force many lings from the zerg, without taking any damage yourself except propably losing the zealot. I just think that protoss' don't make the gateway-expand and try to do the stalker/zealot poke, because it's way, way, way, way easier to just make FFE and blindly sit in your base for the first ten minutes of the game, until moving out with the sentry/immortal all-in, taking freewins against roach-players. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Teambreezy, why did you make a new account, solely for the reason of balance-whine? Whats the problem with your main account? Why don't you want to show us your real internet-face? Drone scout?? pvz? I haven't seen a zerg scout with a drone since the patch. THe new overlords already see everything. Your first lord is sent to the protoss' expo as soon as the game starts so you already know it's a FFE or not. You're second lord will be sent to the third. Have you even watched a game since the patch? You clearly try to show yourself as a person who has watched the game for the whole duration of it's existence, and even more broodwar before that, and still you make just plain retarded one-word answers for every sentence the other speaker makes. Now I understand clearly, why you try to hide behind this second account, because you want to be plain retarded sometimes, while still maintaining the old wiseguy- performance on the first account. Does it grind your gears, being so bad at reading long and thought out- texts, that you just read some random bullshit from between the lines and make then a stupid one sentence-answer for the wall of text? If this thread is for conversation about balance, not mindless whine about the balance, please mods, for the sake of this thread, ban this guy. He creates bad blood and makes just plain stupid and retarded anwsers to everyone who tries to reason with him, making his conversation-partner mad about him and making him maybe even make bad statements, trying to then cast him in a bad light. Also, teambreezy, you need to admit it. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, everyone, they are absolute SHIT at this game compared to the likes of Stephano, MVP, MC. They might have been the emperors of their own races, the emperors of thousand nerds sitting in their basement like you, but now, they are bad. They will get better and maybe even win some starcraft 2-tournaments, but until then, they are absolute garbage. What did i do?? You are trying to ban me because arguing your point and you got nothing to say. I never bashed anyone.
Yes.
+ Show Spoiler +See, I continued the same answer-lenght you did. I am not trying to ban you because you disagree with my opinion, I am trying to get you banned because you disagree with it, and your counter-argument against my point is, that you know who Jaedong is, and that you think that he is better in StarCraft2 than Stephano. Also, in my opinion, you bashed Protosnake.
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On July 18 2012 14:09 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 14:00 Resistentialism wrote:On July 18 2012 13:48 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 13:36 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:21 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 12:40 Reborn8u wrote:
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
It's funny how protoss' on this forum still think that hydras are great against gateway-units. It just shows the difference between protoss' who only hang around the balance-whine threads of teamliquid and battenet, making blatant, mindless, horrible points about balance of the game they don't even play above diamond level, and between protoss' who actually spend time playing this game, trying to be better by playing more and better, learning the game, instead of wasting all of their time to whine. Hydras are god-awful against every unit of the terran or protoss, except the sentry. The only unit which hydra wins supply or cost-effektive against the other races is the sentry. Theres a reason why NO ONE ever makes any hydras ever, and thats because they are god-awful against EVERYTHING. The only reason they might hold protoss air-pushes is that it can be mass-produced from the better economy of the Zergs, making it annihiliate the low-econ protoss air all-in. Also, to other matters, why isn't the gateway-expand viable? Because it was tested for the first year? Yeah, seems legit. During the first year of the game, zergs went ROACH-HYDRA against protoss, doing lingbling muta against terran. The game has almost completely changed, but protoss' still think that gateway-expand is god-horrible. There have been points made about the queen not being so imba, but the maps. The greater rush-distance makes terran's and toss' harass run greater ways, and those precious seconds will make the zerg possible to hold the harass easily, with no losses. This also works against roach-ling rushes against the gateway-expand, which gives you way greater ability to harass the zerg with warpgate units, which have almost zero travel-time. The other point made against gateway-expand is that it sets you behind economically. Waitwaitwait, let's just hold it here for a sec. Forge fast expand doesn't? It gives the Zerg absolutely free reign over the map, over his expansions, over his economy, for the first five minutes of the game, to the point that Zerg can get 3 fully saturated bases AND a 200/200 army of roachling at the moment protoss' usually take their third expansion. This ISN'T letting the zerg ahead in economy? Are you protoss' fucking retarded? And then theres Naniwa. Everyone can agree that Naniwa is way inferior player than DRG, but still Naniwa lost a close series against DRG in a recent GSL code S-game. How? Gateway-expand in the other game which he took, DRG made hydras in the second. Co-incidence? Like someone already said, if zerg doesn't dronescout and doesn't know is it FFE or gateway-expand he can't take his 3rd instead of his natural so freely, because if he does so, he gives you a greater ability to all-in him from 1-2 bases because the walkingdistance from his main to his third is so long, and at least you can try to make the zealot/stalker/stalker poke and probably kill the queen and some drones, or atleast force many lings from the zerg, without taking any damage yourself except propably losing the zealot. I just think that protoss' don't make the gateway-expand and try to do the stalker/zealot poke, because it's way, way, way, way easier to just make FFE and blindly sit in your base for the first ten minutes of the game, until moving out with the sentry/immortal all-in, taking freewins against roach-players. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Teambreezy, why did you make a new account, solely for the reason of balance-whine? Whats the problem with your main account? Why don't you want to show us your real internet-face? Drone scout?? pvz? I haven't seen a zerg scout with a drone since the patch. THe new overlords already see everything. Your first lord is sent to the protoss' expo as soon as the game starts so you already know it's a FFE or not. You're second lord will be sent to the third. Have you even watched a game since the patch? You clearly try to show yourself as a person who has watched the game for the whole duration of it's existence, and even more broodwar before that, and still you make just plain retarded one-word answers for every sentence the other speaker makes. Now I understand clearly, why you try to hide behind this second account, because you want to be plain retarded sometimes, while still maintaining the old wiseguy- performance on the first account. Does it grind your gears, being so bad at reading long and thought out- texts, that you just read some random bullshit from between the lines and make then a stupid one sentence-answer for the wall of text? If this thread is for conversation about balance, not mindless whine about the balance, please mods, for the sake of this thread, ban this guy. He creates bad blood and makes just plain stupid and retarded anwsers to everyone who tries to reason with him, making his conversation-partner mad about him and making him maybe even make bad statements, trying to then cast him in a bad light. Also, teambreezy, you need to admit it. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, everyone, they are absolute SHIT at this game compared to the likes of Stephano, MVP, MC. They might have been the emperors of their own races, the emperors of thousand nerds sitting in their basement like you, but now, they are bad. They will get better and maybe even win some starcraft 2-tournaments, but until then, they are absolute garbage. Your long post was pretty uniformly bad, though. Here's a fun game: you go through it and try to pick out the bad parts and I'll tell you 'warmer' or 'colder' on if you're picking them right. Well then, tell me the bad points of my post as you said you are going to, instead of telling me about some game which is not Starcraft. Also, have you watched this thread at all, followed any of Teambreezys post? They are at least as horrible as mine, and I really would like to think that they're even more horrible than mine. For the last 3 posts or so, he has only tried to show his superiority compared to the other dude, and then cried at me when I made a big, bad post, which he didn't agree to. If everyone would do same as him, this thread would have been closed during the first few pages, as soon as an admin would have gotten to read this. The quality of his posts, and also some others which I am not going to name here, have been so horrible, that I am surprised that they haven't gotten a warning at least. It just shows that the admins have somewhat given upon this thread, and just stopped adminstrating it.
Do you ever read your own post?? You try to make uneducated points which are constantly being proved wrong. I picked out just a couple points and explained why you are wrong. Once again, drone scout. Show me one game pvz that the zerg used a drone to scout, that happened this weekend, NASL or WCS Canada.
Instead of bashing me (you should get a ban), point out what i said that's incorrect. Everything i've said is true. I just pointed out the things you are wrong.
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On July 18 2012 13:55 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 13:43 TitleRug wrote:On July 18 2012 13:39 Orek wrote:On July 18 2012 13:26 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:13 Protosnake wrote:On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Stephano is indeed a better player than Jaedong in SC2, which is the game i'm talking about right now. I know perfectly who Jaedong is, a BW professional that transitioned into SC2 months ago and still hasnt reached a Code S level. I also know perfectly what is the Stephano build, it was innovatice 6months ago, it's surely not innovative today. Just like MC or DRG, he doesnt rely on gimmick, he just have a solid build and he make it work. Stephano make his build work because he have the macro/micro/decision making to make it work, you can try it on ladder any day and the most probable thing that will happen is that you will get crushed by people metagaming you. Even tho the Stephano build is everywhere you dont see a lot of people having crazy winrate with it. The only one that make it work consistently is Stephano. It's not about the build. It's about the player. LOL i'll let someone else talk to you from now on. Talking about Jaedong like he's some bum. I guess Flash is a nobody either right?? He's not in code S either. LOL It's all stephano? Look at the stats. 24 Zerg tourney wins, 3 Terrans, 8 Protoss. Yes it's just Stephano winning. Zerg's are winning 70 percent of all tournaments. I guess it's just stephano winning and no one else right?? You even said the only one that makes it work is stephano. DRG? no he's not on your list. Nestea? Symbol? Violet? Where can I find the source? I am interested. Please link, thank you in advance. http://i.imgur.com/UBrQf.pngcredit to dv0rakftw Balance at the highest level is not the same as balance at lower levels. There is no reason to think that zerg is imbalanced based on Korean results. It's a problem. Who do we balance for? The best or the rest?
While GSL certainly does point towards Zerg not being overpowered, there are many more results outside of Korea (especially with WCS), and this makes it harder to conclude balance statements.
This is almost definitely not a problem now, but during last year, the idea that Korea is the only place to look at for reliable balance at the highest level may have also resulted in the Terran overnerf trend (debatable, but personally this is what I feel happened, where even if there was imbalance that justified action, a buff should have occurred rather than whatever nerf did actually occur), since the GSL system at the time kept many players in code S when someone stuck in code A was probably better than them.
With that being said, I do believe balance should be more geared towards the top level of play (this is related to why I still say some PvZ games in GSL are actually good, when I pretty much never say that otherwise), but it feels like there's a design flaw that could be fixed (nontrivially, no doubt) to keep perceived balance at the highest level and deal with the perceived imbalance at some lower levels. Specifically, the apparent steepness of macro mechanics in this game and how patches keep skipping intermediate values to make larger changes in a game super sensitive to these very changes.
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On July 18 2012 12:26 StackerTwo wrote:
TvZ W/L from IPL TAC3(as of posting)
Round 1 Winners Bracket: 4/11
Round 2 Winners Bracket: 4/9
Round 3 Winners Bracket: 4/2
Round 1 Losers Bracket: 6/7
Round 2 Losers Bracket: 5/8
Round 3 Losers Bracket: 2/3
25/40(65 Total games played) = 38% winrate
Do you have a source for that? I didn't see the players listed on the TAC3 Liquipedia page but maybe I overlooked a link somewhere.
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On July 18 2012 14:35 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 14:29 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:48 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 13:36 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:21 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 12:40 Reborn8u wrote:
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
It's funny how protoss' on this forum still think that hydras are great against gateway-units. It just shows the difference between protoss' who only hang around the balance-whine threads of teamliquid and battenet, making blatant, mindless, horrible points about balance of the game they don't even play above diamond level, and between protoss' who actually spend time playing this game, trying to be better by playing more and better, learning the game, instead of wasting all of their time to whine. Hydras are god-awful against every unit of the terran or protoss, except the sentry. The only unit which hydra wins supply or cost-effektive against the other races is the sentry. Theres a reason why NO ONE ever makes any hydras ever, and thats because they are god-awful against EVERYTHING. The only reason they might hold protoss air-pushes is that it can be mass-produced from the better economy of the Zergs, making it annihiliate the low-econ protoss air all-in. Also, to other matters, why isn't the gateway-expand viable? Because it was tested for the first year? Yeah, seems legit. During the first year of the game, zergs went ROACH-HYDRA against protoss, doing lingbling muta against terran. The game has almost completely changed, but protoss' still think that gateway-expand is god-horrible. There have been points made about the queen not being so imba, but the maps. The greater rush-distance makes terran's and toss' harass run greater ways, and those precious seconds will make the zerg possible to hold the harass easily, with no losses. This also works against roach-ling rushes against the gateway-expand, which gives you way greater ability to harass the zerg with warpgate units, which have almost zero travel-time. The other point made against gateway-expand is that it sets you behind economically. Waitwaitwait, let's just hold it here for a sec. Forge fast expand doesn't? It gives the Zerg absolutely free reign over the map, over his expansions, over his economy, for the first five minutes of the game, to the point that Zerg can get 3 fully saturated bases AND a 200/200 army of roachling at the moment protoss' usually take their third expansion. This ISN'T letting the zerg ahead in economy? Are you protoss' fucking retarded? And then theres Naniwa. Everyone can agree that Naniwa is way inferior player than DRG, but still Naniwa lost a close series against DRG in a recent GSL code S-game. How? Gateway-expand in the other game which he took, DRG made hydras in the second. Co-incidence? Like someone already said, if zerg doesn't dronescout and doesn't know is it FFE or gateway-expand he can't take his 3rd instead of his natural so freely, because if he does so, he gives you a greater ability to all-in him from 1-2 bases because the walkingdistance from his main to his third is so long, and at least you can try to make the zealot/stalker/stalker poke and probably kill the queen and some drones, or atleast force many lings from the zerg, without taking any damage yourself except propably losing the zealot. I just think that protoss' don't make the gateway-expand and try to do the stalker/zealot poke, because it's way, way, way, way easier to just make FFE and blindly sit in your base for the first ten minutes of the game, until moving out with the sentry/immortal all-in, taking freewins against roach-players. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Teambreezy, why did you make a new account, solely for the reason of balance-whine? Whats the problem with your main account? Why don't you want to show us your real internet-face? Drone scout?? pvz? I haven't seen a zerg scout with a drone since the patch. THe new overlords already see everything. Your first lord is sent to the protoss' expo as soon as the game starts so you already know it's a FFE or not. You're second lord will be sent to the third. Have you even watched a game since the patch? You clearly try to show yourself as a person who has watched the game for the whole duration of it's existence, and even more broodwar before that, and still you make just plain retarded one-word answers for every sentence the other speaker makes. Now I understand clearly, why you try to hide behind this second account, because you want to be plain retarded sometimes, while still maintaining the old wiseguy- performance on the first account. Does it grind your gears, being so bad at reading long and thought out- texts, that you just read some random bullshit from between the lines and make then a stupid one sentence-answer for the wall of text? If this thread is for conversation about balance, not mindless whine about the balance, please mods, for the sake of this thread, ban this guy. He creates bad blood and makes just plain stupid and retarded anwsers to everyone who tries to reason with him, making his conversation-partner mad about him and making him maybe even make bad statements, trying to then cast him in a bad light. Also, teambreezy, you need to admit it. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, everyone, they are absolute SHIT at this game compared to the likes of Stephano, MVP, MC. They might have been the emperors of their own races, the emperors of thousand nerds sitting in their basement like you, but now, they are bad. They will get better and maybe even win some starcraft 2-tournaments, but until then, they are absolute garbage. What did i do?? You are trying to ban me because arguing your point and you got nothing to say. I never bashed anyone. Yes. + Show Spoiler +See, I continued the same answer-lenght you did. I am not trying to ban you because you disagree with my opinion, I am trying to get you banned because you disagree with it, and your counter-argument against my point is, that you know who Jaedong is, and that you think that he is better in StarCraft2 than Stephano. Also, in my opinion, you bashed Protosnake.
LOL, Stephano wasn't even one of the top pro gamers in War3, whereas Jaedong was the best zerg in BW. Brood war is the hardest RTS to master. Idra, if you want i'll show clips and shows that he did, even said the Kespa Brood war players are the best RTS players on the planet. Idra is the best Zerg in NA. I'm pretty sure his opinion is miles ahead of anyone because he actually lived and played against those players as well. So yes, I think Jaedong is a better RTS player than Stephano.
MVP, who is the best and most accomplished Starcraft 2 player (4 time GSL winner), couldn't even hang with Flash or Fantasy in BW. He'll tell you how good these BW Pros really are.
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On July 18 2012 14:44 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:26 StackerTwo wrote:
TvZ W/L from IPL TAC3(as of posting)
Round 1 Winners Bracket: 4/11
Round 2 Winners Bracket: 4/9
Round 3 Winners Bracket: 4/2
Round 1 Losers Bracket: 6/7
Round 2 Losers Bracket: 5/8
Round 3 Losers Bracket: 2/3
25/40(65 Total games played) = 38% winrate Do you have a source for that? I didn't see the players listed on the TAC3 Liquipedia page but maybe I overlooked a link somewhere.
There's a link on their below the bracket that says something along the lines of "For Detailed Match Results click here"]
On July 18 2012 14:46 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 14:35 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 14:29 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:48 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 13:36 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:21 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 12:40 Reborn8u wrote:
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
It's funny how protoss' on this forum still think that hydras are great against gateway-units. It just shows the difference between protoss' who only hang around the balance-whine threads of teamliquid and battenet, making blatant, mindless, horrible points about balance of the game they don't even play above diamond level, and between protoss' who actually spend time playing this game, trying to be better by playing more and better, learning the game, instead of wasting all of their time to whine. Hydras are god-awful against every unit of the terran or protoss, except the sentry. The only unit which hydra wins supply or cost-effektive against the other races is the sentry. Theres a reason why NO ONE ever makes any hydras ever, and thats because they are god-awful against EVERYTHING. The only reason they might hold protoss air-pushes is that it can be mass-produced from the better economy of the Zergs, making it annihiliate the low-econ protoss air all-in. Also, to other matters, why isn't the gateway-expand viable? Because it was tested for the first year? Yeah, seems legit. During the first year of the game, zergs went ROACH-HYDRA against protoss, doing lingbling muta against terran. The game has almost completely changed, but protoss' still think that gateway-expand is god-horrible. There have been points made about the queen not being so imba, but the maps. The greater rush-distance makes terran's and toss' harass run greater ways, and those precious seconds will make the zerg possible to hold the harass easily, with no losses. This also works against roach-ling rushes against the gateway-expand, which gives you way greater ability to harass the zerg with warpgate units, which have almost zero travel-time. The other point made against gateway-expand is that it sets you behind economically. Waitwaitwait, let's just hold it here for a sec. Forge fast expand doesn't? It gives the Zerg absolutely free reign over the map, over his expansions, over his economy, for the first five minutes of the game, to the point that Zerg can get 3 fully saturated bases AND a 200/200 army of roachling at the moment protoss' usually take their third expansion. This ISN'T letting the zerg ahead in economy? Are you protoss' fucking retarded? And then theres Naniwa. Everyone can agree that Naniwa is way inferior player than DRG, but still Naniwa lost a close series against DRG in a recent GSL code S-game. How? Gateway-expand in the other game which he took, DRG made hydras in the second. Co-incidence? Like someone already said, if zerg doesn't dronescout and doesn't know is it FFE or gateway-expand he can't take his 3rd instead of his natural so freely, because if he does so, he gives you a greater ability to all-in him from 1-2 bases because the walkingdistance from his main to his third is so long, and at least you can try to make the zealot/stalker/stalker poke and probably kill the queen and some drones, or atleast force many lings from the zerg, without taking any damage yourself except propably losing the zealot. I just think that protoss' don't make the gateway-expand and try to do the stalker/zealot poke, because it's way, way, way, way easier to just make FFE and blindly sit in your base for the first ten minutes of the game, until moving out with the sentry/immortal all-in, taking freewins against roach-players. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Teambreezy, why did you make a new account, solely for the reason of balance-whine? Whats the problem with your main account? Why don't you want to show us your real internet-face? Drone scout?? pvz? I haven't seen a zerg scout with a drone since the patch. THe new overlords already see everything. Your first lord is sent to the protoss' expo as soon as the game starts so you already know it's a FFE or not. You're second lord will be sent to the third. Have you even watched a game since the patch? You clearly try to show yourself as a person who has watched the game for the whole duration of it's existence, and even more broodwar before that, and still you make just plain retarded one-word answers for every sentence the other speaker makes. Now I understand clearly, why you try to hide behind this second account, because you want to be plain retarded sometimes, while still maintaining the old wiseguy- performance on the first account. Does it grind your gears, being so bad at reading long and thought out- texts, that you just read some random bullshit from between the lines and make then a stupid one sentence-answer for the wall of text? If this thread is for conversation about balance, not mindless whine about the balance, please mods, for the sake of this thread, ban this guy. He creates bad blood and makes just plain stupid and retarded anwsers to everyone who tries to reason with him, making his conversation-partner mad about him and making him maybe even make bad statements, trying to then cast him in a bad light. Also, teambreezy, you need to admit it. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, everyone, they are absolute SHIT at this game compared to the likes of Stephano, MVP, MC. They might have been the emperors of their own races, the emperors of thousand nerds sitting in their basement like you, but now, they are bad. They will get better and maybe even win some starcraft 2-tournaments, but until then, they are absolute garbage. What did i do?? You are trying to ban me because arguing your point and you got nothing to say. I never bashed anyone. Yes. + Show Spoiler +See, I continued the same answer-lenght you did. I am not trying to ban you because you disagree with my opinion, I am trying to get you banned because you disagree with it, and your counter-argument against my point is, that you know who Jaedong is, and that you think that he is better in StarCraft2 than Stephano. Also, in my opinion, you bashed Protosnake. LOL, Stephano wasn't even one of the top pro gamers in War3, whereas Jaedong was the best zerg in BW. Brood war is the hardest RTS to master. Idra, if you want i'll show clips and shows that he did, even said the Kespa Brood war players are the best RTS players on the planet. Idra is the best Zerg in NA. I'm pretty sure his opinion is miles ahead of anyone because he actually lived and played against those players as well. So yes, I think Jaedong is a better RTS player than Stephano. MVP, who is the best and most accomplished Starcraft 2 player (4 time GSL winner), couldn't even hang with Flash or Fantasy in BW. He'll tell you how good these BW Pros really are.
Pretty sure Violet is in NA and is a better Zerg.
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On July 18 2012 14:09 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 14:00 Resistentialism wrote:On July 18 2012 13:48 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 13:36 TeamBreezy wrote:On July 18 2012 13:21 Pinna wrote:On July 18 2012 12:40 Reborn8u wrote:
Versus heavy protoss air play, zergs can just roach hydra and smash toss. Colossus or storm will be super late and the hydras are great vs all protoss air, immortals, and all gateway units. Even if they can't break your nat because of FF's they can smash void rays and deny a 3rd. By the time you have colossus out and can try to push for a 3rd, there will be creep tumors at the bottom of protoss' nat ramp.
It's funny how protoss' on this forum still think that hydras are great against gateway-units. It just shows the difference between protoss' who only hang around the balance-whine threads of teamliquid and battenet, making blatant, mindless, horrible points about balance of the game they don't even play above diamond level, and between protoss' who actually spend time playing this game, trying to be better by playing more and better, learning the game, instead of wasting all of their time to whine. Hydras are god-awful against every unit of the terran or protoss, except the sentry. The only unit which hydra wins supply or cost-effektive against the other races is the sentry. Theres a reason why NO ONE ever makes any hydras ever, and thats because they are god-awful against EVERYTHING. The only reason they might hold protoss air-pushes is that it can be mass-produced from the better economy of the Zergs, making it annihiliate the low-econ protoss air all-in. Also, to other matters, why isn't the gateway-expand viable? Because it was tested for the first year? Yeah, seems legit. During the first year of the game, zergs went ROACH-HYDRA against protoss, doing lingbling muta against terran. The game has almost completely changed, but protoss' still think that gateway-expand is god-horrible. There have been points made about the queen not being so imba, but the maps. The greater rush-distance makes terran's and toss' harass run greater ways, and those precious seconds will make the zerg possible to hold the harass easily, with no losses. This also works against roach-ling rushes against the gateway-expand, which gives you way greater ability to harass the zerg with warpgate units, which have almost zero travel-time. The other point made against gateway-expand is that it sets you behind economically. Waitwaitwait, let's just hold it here for a sec. Forge fast expand doesn't? It gives the Zerg absolutely free reign over the map, over his expansions, over his economy, for the first five minutes of the game, to the point that Zerg can get 3 fully saturated bases AND a 200/200 army of roachling at the moment protoss' usually take their third expansion. This ISN'T letting the zerg ahead in economy? Are you protoss' fucking retarded? And then theres Naniwa. Everyone can agree that Naniwa is way inferior player than DRG, but still Naniwa lost a close series against DRG in a recent GSL code S-game. How? Gateway-expand in the other game which he took, DRG made hydras in the second. Co-incidence? Like someone already said, if zerg doesn't dronescout and doesn't know is it FFE or gateway-expand he can't take his 3rd instead of his natural so freely, because if he does so, he gives you a greater ability to all-in him from 1-2 bases because the walkingdistance from his main to his third is so long, and at least you can try to make the zealot/stalker/stalker poke and probably kill the queen and some drones, or atleast force many lings from the zerg, without taking any damage yourself except propably losing the zealot. I just think that protoss' don't make the gateway-expand and try to do the stalker/zealot poke, because it's way, way, way, way easier to just make FFE and blindly sit in your base for the first ten minutes of the game, until moving out with the sentry/immortal all-in, taking freewins against roach-players. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 13:04 TeamBreezy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:50 Protosnake wrote:I say there is no counter to stephano's style, then you say that there was early 6gate and immortal sentry, which stephano has already been able to stop. But you believe over time this will somehow make his build less effective?
You do realize that zerg has perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game, and will see these things coming before the protoss even leaves his base? It doesn't make zerg less efficient in a long game, because they KNOW it's all in or if it is not. I'm actually not sure if you are trying to support my statement or refute it. Stephano stopped it by adjusting, which is technically making a new build, which mean his build was never unstoppable. Zerg doesnt have "perfect knowledge of protoss during the early game". That's not true. You have a gas timing and an OV scout that might not see everything. 20 seconds worth of time. think about it, with 3 hatches, that's probably at least 9 or more drones he gets extra before he produces roaches. Think about it, as time goes on, those 9 drones just produces that much more minerals, therefore more units. Lots of counters?? Stephano lost 3 games all tournament. All pvz's. There's a reason why Jaedong (if you don't know who that is, than i'm done talking) is copying stephano's build. Jaedong. The god of zerg. Stephano will not lose another tournament until there's a patch to nerf zerg, or if he plays another good zerg. If he plays zvp and zvt... just give him the trophy. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing player. The best foreign player by a mile. It's not only Jaedong, pretty much every Zerg open with it right, just like every P started to open with FFE, because it's a smart build, and ZvP is still around 50%, go figure. Also, if I remember correctly, Last time jaedong though he was Stephano, going 3 hatches and mass queens,he got destroyed. It's not about the build, atleast not only, it's a lot about the player. I swear, I'm going to jump off the CN tower if you are implying that Stephano is better player than Jaedong!! LOL Man I feel like putting my head through a wall... It's a lot about the player? Do you who Jaedong is LOL. It's like saying Flash is nothing compared to MVP. MVP will tell you FLash is the greatest RTS player all time. Jaedong is the best Zerg of all time. I'm debating if you watch Stephano play. His roach play to counter early pressure and counter. It allows you to drone up and take your third while holding 2 base all-in's, or if a Toss takes his third, denies it. It works every single game. It's not like Stephano is doing anything innovative, just surround armies or retreats. No drops or anything, works wonders. Teambreezy, why did you make a new account, solely for the reason of balance-whine? Whats the problem with your main account? Why don't you want to show us your real internet-face? Drone scout?? pvz? I haven't seen a zerg scout with a drone since the patch. THe new overlords already see everything. Your first lord is sent to the protoss' expo as soon as the game starts so you already know it's a FFE or not. You're second lord will be sent to the third. Have you even watched a game since the patch? You clearly try to show yourself as a person who has watched the game for the whole duration of it's existence, and even more broodwar before that, and still you make just plain retarded one-word answers for every sentence the other speaker makes. Now I understand clearly, why you try to hide behind this second account, because you want to be plain retarded sometimes, while still maintaining the old wiseguy- performance on the first account. Does it grind your gears, being so bad at reading long and thought out- texts, that you just read some random bullshit from between the lines and make then a stupid one sentence-answer for the wall of text? If this thread is for conversation about balance, not mindless whine about the balance, please mods, for the sake of this thread, ban this guy. He creates bad blood and makes just plain stupid and retarded anwsers to everyone who tries to reason with him, making his conversation-partner mad about him and making him maybe even make bad statements, trying to then cast him in a bad light. Also, teambreezy, you need to admit it. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, everyone, they are absolute SHIT at this game compared to the likes of Stephano, MVP, MC. They might have been the emperors of their own races, the emperors of thousand nerds sitting in their basement like you, but now, they are bad. They will get better and maybe even win some starcraft 2-tournaments, but until then, they are absolute garbage. Your long post was pretty uniformly bad, though. Here's a fun game: you go through it and try to pick out the bad parts and I'll tell you 'warmer' or 'colder' on if you're picking them right. Well then, tell me the bad points of my post as you said you are going to, instead of telling me about some game which is not Starcraft. Also, have you watched this thread at all, followed any of Teambreezys post? They are at least as horrible as mine, and I really would like to think that they're even more horrible than mine. For the last 3 posts or so, he has only tried to show his superiority compared to the other dude, and then cried at me when I made a big, bad post, which he didn't agree to. If everyone would do same as him, this thread would have been closed during the first few pages, as soon as an admin would have gotten to read this. The quality of his posts, and also some others which I am not going to name here, have been so horrible, that I am surprised that they haven't gotten a warning at least. It just shows that the admins have somewhat given upon this thread, and just stopped adminstrating it.
Usually when someone spends more than 3 posts on nothing but ad homs, you can easily see the irony.
In this case, I'm afraid you are the one that might deserve a ban if you don't ..to put it midly, get over yourself.
Take your own medecine really.
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On July 18 2012 14:44 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 12:26 StackerTwo wrote:
TvZ W/L from IPL TAC3(as of posting)
Round 1 Winners Bracket: 4/11
Round 2 Winners Bracket: 4/9
Round 3 Winners Bracket: 4/2
Round 1 Losers Bracket: 6/7
Round 2 Losers Bracket: 5/8
Round 3 Losers Bracket: 2/3
25/40(65 Total games played) = 38% winrate Do you have a source for that? I didn't see the players listed on the TAC3 Liquipedia page but maybe I overlooked a link somewhere.
It's possible that he just counted them up by hand from  IPL Team Arena Challenge/3/Main Event, since breaking it down round by round, it's not that difficult (I get 4-10 instead of 4-11 for round 1 winners, but maybe I screwed up)
And... apparently someone else already answered the question
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EPT
