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On July 15 2012 23:44 iky43210 wrote:
how to balance zerg late game: Make larva stock cap at 7 per hatcheries (or whatever arbitrary amount).
This overall reduces importance of on time larva injects, but also means zerg cannot float minerals. If they float minerals, it will severely hurt them from losing passive larva regen from hatcheries (only occurs when under 3) and forces them to spend minerals to increase production so they can't stock up on minerals and larva all game.
It also means zerg can't just throw away an army, and remax 200/200 late game with some absurb amount of late game units. This change shouldn't affect early or early mid game, but will hurt mid and late game zergs that can't control their resources and end up floating a ton of minerals (but which is ok, floating minerals is no big deal atm as long as you have larva saved up and ready).
Maybe not 7, but I wouldnt mind 11 (im zerg player)
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On July 15 2012 23:58 ysnake wrote:
It is not impossible for Terran to win, Queen may need a nerf to range 4 (so that is on pair with Hellions), but late-game has not changed whatsoever except the fact that Zerg can get to it much faster now.
I feel like nerfing queens hp would be better than nerfing range
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On July 16 2012 00:04 monkybone wrote:
The result would simply be that Zerg makes additional macro hatches, and/or making them earlier. It's essentially an extra resource cost to Zerg.
And wouldn't it be fair, that zerg has to build additional production facilities to instant remax in the lategame? I mean Protoss has to go up to 30+ warpgates to achieve this? Why should zerg be able to just with their expansion hatches?
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On July 16 2012 00:12 Skaminator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 23:58 ysnake wrote:
It is not impossible for Terran to win, Queen may need a nerf to range 4 (so that is on pair with Hellions), but late-game has not changed whatsoever except the fact that Zerg can get to it much faster now.
I feel like nerfing queens hp would be better than nerfing range
That'd utterly destroy them against Void Rays...theres a reason only their ground attack range was changed.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 16 2012 00:12 Skaminator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 23:58 ysnake wrote:
It is not impossible for Terran to win, Queen may need a nerf to range 4 (so that is on pair with Hellions), but late-game has not changed whatsoever except the fact that Zerg can get to it much faster now.
I feel like nerfing queens hp would be better than nerfing range
Queens are the only anti-ait Zerg's defense (if you discount Spore Crawlers) in the early game to early-mid game (until Infestors get out). Simply because of the fact that Hydras are useless units.
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Canada404 Posts
On July 12 2012 17:19 Fus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 16:56 MiraculiX wrote:
If it turned out that as a fact terran is much harder to play than the other two races;
If you had to be a much better player to win a standard game. How would that be expressed in statistics we're currently looking at to get an idea of balance? I guess there would be no terrans at the highest level of play then. I doubt that everyone that plays terran in GM would easily win GSL if they played protoss or zerg.
Terran IS harder to play at lower levels. It doesn't have any end game units. So the race gets it's advantage through great use of bio in the mid game which requires a lot of APM, micro and multi-tasking. Which is great for highly skilled players, but very difficult for the average player.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 16 2012 00:18 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 17:19 Fus wrote:On July 12 2012 16:56 MiraculiX wrote:
If it turned out that as a fact terran is much harder to play than the other two races;
If you had to be a much better player to win a standard game. How would that be expressed in statistics we're currently looking at to get an idea of balance? I guess there would be no terrans at the highest level of play then. I doubt that everyone that plays terran in GM would easily win GSL if they played protoss or zerg. Terran IS harder to play at lower levels. It doesn't have any end game units. So the race gets it's advantage through great use of bio in the mid game which requires a lot of APM, micro and multi-tasking. Which is great for highly skilled players, but very difficult for the average player.
Only bio requires a lot of multi-tasking and whatnot. Mech is quite easy to play.
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On July 16 2012 00:22 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 00:18 mlspmatt wrote:On July 12 2012 17:19 Fus wrote:On July 12 2012 16:56 MiraculiX wrote:
If it turned out that as a fact terran is much harder to play than the other two races;
If you had to be a much better player to win a standard game. How would that be expressed in statistics we're currently looking at to get an idea of balance? I guess there would be no terrans at the highest level of play then. I doubt that everyone that plays terran in GM would easily win GSL if they played protoss or zerg. Terran IS harder to play at lower levels. It doesn't have any end game units. So the race gets it's advantage through great use of bio in the mid game which requires a lot of APM, micro and multi-tasking. Which is great for highly skilled players, but very difficult for the average player. Only bio requires a lot of multi-tasking and whatnot. Mech is quite easy to play.
It's also not viable on a lot of maps and is worse than bio in most cases.
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On July 16 2012 00:14 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 00:12 Skaminator wrote:On July 15 2012 23:58 ysnake wrote:
It is not impossible for Terran to win, Queen may need a nerf to range 4 (so that is on pair with Hellions), but late-game has not changed whatsoever except the fact that Zerg can get to it much faster now.
I feel like nerfing queens hp would be better than nerfing range That'd utterly destroy them against Void Rays...theres a reason only their ground attack range was changed.
Queen is the macro mechanic for zerg and it almost wins 1vs1 vs a Void Ray lol. Such a terrible overcosted unit.
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On July 16 2012 00:23 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 00:22 ysnake wrote:On July 16 2012 00:18 mlspmatt wrote:On July 12 2012 17:19 Fus wrote:On July 12 2012 16:56 MiraculiX wrote:
If it turned out that as a fact terran is much harder to play than the other two races;
If you had to be a much better player to win a standard game. How would that be expressed in statistics we're currently looking at to get an idea of balance? I guess there would be no terrans at the highest level of play then. I doubt that everyone that plays terran in GM would easily win GSL if they played protoss or zerg. Terran IS harder to play at lower levels. It doesn't have any end game units. So the race gets it's advantage through great use of bio in the mid game which requires a lot of APM, micro and multi-tasking. Which is great for highly skilled players, but very difficult for the average player. Only bio requires a lot of multi-tasking and whatnot. Mech is quite easy to play. It's also not viable on a lot of maps and is worse than bio in most cases.
I think the utterly-retarded non-scientific approach to map design also has a big impact on our feelings of balance. They really need a dedicated team that cycles out a brand new complete map pool every other season or something with designs that are creative, but within the confines of known features/shapes that have proven to be balanced for pretty much all match-ups.
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On July 16 2012 00:25 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 00:14 Lightspeaker wrote:On July 16 2012 00:12 Skaminator wrote:On July 15 2012 23:58 ysnake wrote:
It is not impossible for Terran to win, Queen may need a nerf to range 4 (so that is on pair with Hellions), but late-game has not changed whatsoever except the fact that Zerg can get to it much faster now.
I feel like nerfing queens hp would be better than nerfing range That'd utterly destroy them against Void Rays...theres a reason only their ground attack range was changed. Queen is the macro mechanic for zerg and it almost wins 1vs1 vs a Void Ray lol. Such a terrible overcosted unit.
Void Rays should be better than they are, lol. I'm sorry, but building a few Hydras should set you a bit behind because building a few Void Rays sets me a bit behind. You shouldn't be able to defend EVERYTHING with minerals and static defense. I mean, at least Protoss needs to make Sentries.
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On July 16 2012 00:27 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 00:25 Salteador Neo wrote:On July 16 2012 00:14 Lightspeaker wrote:On July 16 2012 00:12 Skaminator wrote:On July 15 2012 23:58 ysnake wrote:
It is not impossible for Terran to win, Queen may need a nerf to range 4 (so that is on pair with Hellions), but late-game has not changed whatsoever except the fact that Zerg can get to it much faster now.
I feel like nerfing queens hp would be better than nerfing range That'd utterly destroy them against Void Rays...theres a reason only their ground attack range was changed. Queen is the macro mechanic for zerg and it almost wins 1vs1 vs a Void Ray lol. Such a terrible overcosted unit. Void Rays should be better than they are, lol. I'm sorry, but building a few Hydras should set you a bit behind because building a few Void Rays sets me a bit behind. You shouldn't be able to defend EVERYTHING with minerals and static defense. I mean, at least Protoss needs to make Sentries.
Building hydras does set us behind and also you're trying to say that the way Zerg works should be resource-proportionate to how Protoss works which would just be making them clones of each other. Anything but building workers early on is a death-wish for zerg because of how they made the game.
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The problem with Zerg being so overpowered is that Roaches are so insanely powerful for its cost (they beat stalkers unless you even bother to micro stalkers) and Hydras are so slow that their insane dps can be gimped.
Roaches -> 125 hp or attack to 12 damage
Hydras -> Change upgrade from +1 range to speed upgrade
Hydras are so bad which is why everyone keeps using these overpowered roaches. It should be balanced such that using hydras instead of roaches should be a good decision.
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On July 16 2012 00:32 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 00:27 Shiori wrote:On July 16 2012 00:25 Salteador Neo wrote:On July 16 2012 00:14 Lightspeaker wrote:On July 16 2012 00:12 Skaminator wrote:On July 15 2012 23:58 ysnake wrote:
It is not impossible for Terran to win, Queen may need a nerf to range 4 (so that is on pair with Hellions), but late-game has not changed whatsoever except the fact that Zerg can get to it much faster now.
I feel like nerfing queens hp would be better than nerfing range That'd utterly destroy them against Void Rays...theres a reason only their ground attack range was changed. Queen is the macro mechanic for zerg and it almost wins 1vs1 vs a Void Ray lol. Such a terrible overcosted unit. Void Rays should be better than they are, lol. I'm sorry, but building a few Hydras should set you a bit behind because building a few Void Rays sets me a bit behind. You shouldn't be able to defend EVERYTHING with minerals and static defense. I mean, at least Protoss needs to make Sentries. Building hydras does set us behind and also you're trying to say that the way Zerg works should be resource-proportionate to how Protoss works which would just be making them clones of each other. Anything but building workers early on is a death-wish for zerg because of how they made the game.
Except this just isn't true, and we've seen it demonstrated it time and time again. The idea that Zerg units are bad and that you need to get 80 Drones by 10 minutes to be even is just false. Roaches and Lings are excellent against Protoss. Forcing a Zerg to make units could very well end up in the Protoss player's death if the Zerg calls your bluff.
And it has nothing to do with being "clones." When I pressure Terran, I force a response that makes them deviate somewhat from standard play. Of course,some units are more viable than others, but Zerg is the only race that can deter ALL pressure without spending much resources at ll. No matter how you slice it, this isn't balanced, and making it balanced would not make the game stale, because no one side should have access to more resources than the other unless the opposing side has another, correspondingly huge advantage.
Zerg shouldn't be able to trade cost-efficiently against everything. If Larvae Inject were less amazing than it is, then I could understand your point, but in order for Zerg to not be overpowered, you NEED to work resource-proportionate to everyone else, because your income is always higher, you have Creep, and your units are excellent.
And yeah, building Hydras does set you behind. The thing is that you don't actually need Hydras to hold Stargate play, because Stargate is so pitifully awful against Queens and Spores that you never achieve more than faking the Zerg out. This does not work against intelligent Zergs like Stephano, as witnessed this weekend wherein almost every SG opening lost.
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Get 3rd cannon'd and defend 2 base all in with 3 spines + 4 infestors nuff said. Zerg Cost efficient.
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Screw Queens, the most annoying thing about trying to do damage with Stargate is the 6 second spore root time. A spore crawler can walk under a VR attacking it, root, and still nearly kill it (VR lives with 70 hp assuming they both start at max hp). "Static" defense, my ass. For comparison's sake, a VR will kill a Hydralisk and only lose its shields. And all this because Blizzard had to fuck with core units and in their infinite wisdom, decide that Zerg shouldn't have anti-air units at hatch tech.
As for the larvae thing, anything that forces Zerg to actually invest in their production, will make the game better. However, limiting the max amount of larvae on a hatch won't stop them from only making drones within the first 10 minutes of the game, and Blizzard from nerfing everything that interferes with this playstyle. One solution would be to experiment with saturation and resource allocation per base, so you can't afford near everything off 3 bases. Another - a serious nerf to spawn larvae, and a buff to hatch larvae production. That's basically copying BW though.
In any case, Zerg players should want their macro mechanics nerfed, if they want to keep all the good units they're getting in HotS.
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VRs are insanely good early game...at least vs terran. They are similar to banshees in that way. Making anything better or worse when it comes to air is a very delicate system. Honestly I wouldn't mind zerg needing to make more spores. since they already have so many queens... I really don't know though. All I know is that VR with 3 gates is kinda hard to deal with to begin with... and VR isn't great vs zerg or protoss. Mech isn't great outside of TvT really, and is I guess ok at TvZ sometimes. Not all units are viable in every match up.
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Nerf the Roach?
ZvZ maybe we would see more ling infestor type stuff.
TvZ Terrans would be a little less worried about roach bane all ins and mech would be more viable giving terrans a more reliable strategy that can transition better and keep up with zerg into the late game.
PvZ 2 base allins would be stronger and zerg would have to make more lings? Expanding to a third base would be easier for protoss and remaxing on roaches if the toss looses most of his colosssus would be a little weaker.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 16 2012 01:28 xPabt wrote:
Nerf the Roach?
ZvZ maybe we would see more ling infestor type stuff.
TvZ Terrans would be a little less worried about roach bane all ins and mech would be more viable giving terrans a more reliable strategy that can transition better and keep up with zerg into the late game.
PvZ 2 base allins would be stronger and zerg would have to make more lings? Expanding to a third base would be easier for protoss and remaxing on roaches if the toss looses most of his colosssus would be a little weaker.
ZvZ - Except Ling/Infestor is already the best composition in ZvZ if you can play it right, you have a much MUCH mobile force than the Roach opponent.
TvZ - Then all Zergs would die to the mech timing attack (before Hive) and Roaches are already godhorrible against positioned Siege Tanks.
PvZ - +1 Zealots 2shot lings and Immortal/Sentry allin would be impossible to stop.
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EPT
